6 way star spacing for sap ladder

[Clinkis]

When building a sap ladder with multiple 6 way stars how much spacing do you normally want between them or does it really matter? About to build a couple ladders for the first time and would like to do it right the first time. Thanks

[Haynes Forest Products]

Clinkis I run all 1200 or so taps thru ladders and I spaced them as close as I could to each other 3 per mainline and felt I was getting all the sap thru the line as soon as it enterd. Now I didnt do any in depth study but seemed to work as well as ones that were spaced farther apart.

[mellondome]

How my taps are you supporting with each star?

[Clinkis]

Thanks for the responses. I've got one that will have about 30 taps that will lift about 10' and another with 100 taps that will lift about 5'. Planning on using 2 stars with one and 3 with the other.

[BreezyHill]

I like to have 3-6" of colored mainline so you can see the flow between stars. It is to hard to detect an issue when you cant see the flow.

Further apart and you can miss subtle changes in flow that can be from ripples in the mainline flow. These ripples are usually caused by a sag in the line somewhere. Find the sag and eliminate it.

A few pointers:

Pick a spot that the sun can warm the ladder...southside of an anchor tree is best.
keep all the risers the same length to keep the friction loss the same
Don't do this...15041
when you get tired stop. Mistakes happen and it takes time to correct them. This was an after dark screw up. Needless to say, the ladder didn't work right at all.

BUt we all got a laugh out of it when we found it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Mellondome I might have up to 200 taps on a 3 star set up. Having one star to support 30 taps would be fine.

Spacing can be a problem with new poly pipe because of the curve from the coil. The longer the pipe the harder it is to keep a nice straight manifold. I would recommend that you use the blue poly and heat up a 20 ft section and get it to cool flat.

The problem with using all blue poly is you will find yourself becoming mesmerized at all the sap flowing around up and down all around.............Chuck for cripes sake get in the truck we need to go.

[Clinkis]

Ok....so I've spoken with my Lapierre dealer. He is extremely knowledgeable and has always given me good info. So when I picked up my supplies I spoke to him about building my ladders. He recommends that on the lower main after your required number of downward stars (he recommends 60 taps per star) that you should add one more star upright to help transfer vacuum. He actually took me to a sugarbush and showed me some of his ladders and says this is how he builds all his ladders now and says it will give you better vacuum beyond your ladder.

I hate to doubt him but I've never seen, heard, or read about this anywhere. All the info I read is to keep all stars on lower mains turned down. Has anyone else ever heard or done this?

[BreezyHill]

So I would ask him how many ladders does he have and how well did they work.

If you do what he is saying the tree gases and the injected air, which is on top of the mainline will go up that star. The sap this is on the bottom of the main,(Gravity at work) will only be able to go up the stars on the bottom of the main until the sap pools enough to force some sap up the inverted star with the air. As soon as the feeder main pools you will loose vacuum past the ladder on the feeder main.

It has been my experience that salesman, which I am one of those for our feed mill and feed store, only knows what they have learned. That which you learn hands on will stick with you and only part of what you learn from reading will be retained.

Below are a few examples of experiments and the first was a screw up one late night when I tried to get 100 taps on line for a 22 low and a 45 high the next day.
15074

this injector was installed to see if the stalled ladder was due to low vacuum, to much sap, and ended up being grung stuck in the stars.
15075

This was my first attempt at a wet dry ladder.
15076

I learned real fast that a 1" riser freezes very quickly due to higher slippage rates. and after she is frozen she takes a long time to thaw. Check valve was to limit slippage and was a total waste of time and $$$.

I have tried every size riser from 1" to 5/16" They all work to some extent. 1/2" has been the best for me and my sites. They thaw faster, run longer with a cold brook bed that nearly all my sap must cross. There are a few tricks or rules to ladders.

For me: Elbows at the top on anything larger than 5/16 will cause more slippage. You want the sap to blast into the top line and flow away quickly.
The first pic is the way a top star must be placed.
Bottom stars of the ladder go on the bottom.
5/16 risers will flow backwards if you have a riser that is getting more bubbles than another. it shoots across the star and the stream of sap will go down the opposing riser with no or nearly no bubbles because the bubbles were sucked off. This does not happen with a manifold system.

Cloudy days of 34 degrees will produce great flows with high vacuum....as long as your ladder has thawed. This is what killed my 1" and 3/4" risers. It takes a lot of warm water to thaw a 3/4" riser and I used a hose out of the sap house.

Set your injector on the peak flow and write the adjustment down in a book and file it in a dry sealed container in the sugar house.

If you have more than one ladder number them. Nothing worse than a cell call from the boys or the wife and you ask which ladder...the one by the brook and the big maple tree when you are going 65 MPH in a big truck will make you want to throw the blue tooth out the window on the second or third call. LOL no it really will!

There are no stupid questions! So please just ask...it saves a boat load of time to learn from others mistakes and yes after a while you will learn to laugh at your mistakes.

Been there, done that, Trumps I read or heard about that, every time.

Those of us that have working functioning ladders will help you any time. I give out my email so I can send you pics easier; but I do agree that it is tough to follow a thread that is missing info and pics, when I don't answer in the thread. Sorry but my accident in 7-16 has left me short of time. Rehab sucks! I hope to be able to tap this season but I have a bunch to do to reach that point right now. I appreciate all the well wishes but do just one thing. If you see a friend family member or a stranger that is getting in a vehicle take their keys, throw them if you must but don't let them drive. 1 person has screwed up 9 lives directly and hundreds indirectly with one stupid decision to drive. T boned by a car doing 60 MPH is no fun.

Ben

[Haynes Forest Products]

I went from having 10-12 ft ladders all around my collection area.The mainlines came in at a nice low level about 2 ft off the ground. I then went into ladders and ran over head 20 to 50 ft so I could get under them with my truck and ATV. What a night mare that was setting up every year to make sure the guy wires were tight and straight. The stress they put on the releaser would cause the PVC unions to leak and all the fitting would reduce flow and quicken freezing.

I decided that reducing the size and ease of install was needed. Because I have to remove all my tanks and releasers I would try this set up. These cages take all the stress off the releaser and I have cut all my ladders down to about 5'. I run my mainlines from the last tree on the ground in the mud and YES I run over them with my ATV. I have not had a freezing issue and the 1" CDL poly has withstood the treatment.

I can cover the entire tank releaser and sap ladder cage with a tarp if they call for snow or freezing rain. I have even gone out and using a weed burner blasted the entire ladder cage from a safe distance to thaw them out when I started the pump when it was early morning.

My next move is to build the manifolds out of 1 1/2 PVC glue joint fitting to reduce the friction of all the fittings and the ability to keep things straight.

Cant find Go Advanced so will post pic's next post

[Haynes Forest Products]

OH WELL cant download pictures :confused: right side up or more than one very confusing

[Clinkis]

Ok thanks for the responses. This guy designs and installs pipelines systems for a living so I figured he'd know but who knows. He sent me to one of his bushes to look at his ladders. He said if your ladder is setup properly you shouldn't need injectors. If it's pooling you don't have enough stars according to him. But trust me, we don't need to start that debate again. I've read enough post about that. I just want to make sure my stars are oriented properly.

[Haynes Forest Products]

There is nothing better than a good vigorous respectful debate. I like nothing more than trying new ideas so I thank you for bringing this topic up. Im now thinking how can I build my manifold for my ladders with the ability to add the reversed star fitting. I can always put them on the end of the manifold with a full port ball valve and shut them down for comparison. Whats $25.00 worth of parts that can be reused somewhere else if it doesn't work out for me no big deal.

[Clinkis]

That's kind of my thought. The way that I've built my 2 ladders I can easily add, remove or change the orientation of the stars as well as add an air injector as necessary. I'm going into this with an open mind. Thanks

[VT_K9]

My first year of a "ladder" was to gain access to about 15 taps at or just below the releaser level. I ran 3/4" black poly and used a 3/4" elbow and 3/4" pipe for the "ladder." It's placement was also shaded due to the lay out. It froze every day and was hard to thaw. Last year I re-ran the line. I have about 14 taps on a 3 star ladder (bottom star upside down). The bottom main line and top main line (total of about 30 feet are cdl blue 1" for max vac transfer and reduced effects from freezing in a 3/4" line. This ladder is 10-12' tall. The other one tape is a single 5/16" in line run about 8-10 feet up the treed (wrapped a couple times for friction to hold tight (removing the tap allows it to loosen up each year for tree growth). This line goes into a saddle in the top of the other later. I seem to get a decent run from this system. Last year we added a ladder with a 10' rise for about 25 taps and it worked great. We used one 6 start adapter for this run. It is mesmerizing. Start with the number of taps per star as recommended. Be ready to try a couple of things. As mentioned above try to get it in a spot for early AM sun to help get the flow going. I am looking forward to trying a few more ladders to keep trails open without having to break down the lines each season.

Good luck,

Mike

Edited....if I get comfortable with ladders I think I could add about 100 taps into my current releaser easily. Otherwise they may go into a future releaser (will have to install another station with vac lines and pump lines). We are tapping one side of the property now. The other side has a lot more trees, but this one was already established and we should be able to get up to about 450-500 taps. The other side opens up all the other property for maybe 1000+ taps, but I am thinking 300 or so would be real simple on a new releaser or many ladders.