How much "uphill" can I get away with with 3/16 tubing?

[Snowmad]

I'm getting ready to install my 3/16 line (total nubie to line) and I've got one area where there is a slight slope (according to Google Earth, I've got a drop of 20' but that's from the first hole to the last, not from the last tap to the tank), then there is a slight up hill of a couple feet although it seems like more. From there, I have a nice drop with more taps of 30'drop from where the first section of woods is to the bottom of the second section of woods where my tank would be.

My question is, would I be better off to install a tank on the first section of woods even though there isn't a very big drop or close to none on some of the taps or would I be best to put it all on one line (not to exceed the recommended 36 taps per line) with the slight uphill between the two portions of woods? Would I would get more vacuum on upper section or would that be negated by the slight uphill the sap would have to run? I read about everyone's sugar bush as if they are all on this perfect side hill slope, but I'm running a lot of hedgerows between fields and trying to save on labor over the buckets I've used and on collection points since I work alone a lot of the time. Thanks for any advise! :) Happy tappin'!

[Super Sapper]

With 3/16 I would run them together. There are several people with examples of their line going up and back down with no problems a long as you have a good drop afterward.

[psparr]

Not sure how many taps you had in buckets, and how many your going to have total on 3/16, but you won't need near as many running 3/16 as you had on buckets.
I get more sap from 40 taps on 3/16 than I did from almost 300 on buckets.

[DrTimPerkins]

With 3/16 I would run them together. There are several people with examples of their line going up and back down with no problems a long as you have a good drop afterward.

as "long as you have a good drop afterward"

That is the KEY part of the statement above. If it is flat across a long distance or uphill at the terminus of the pipe (into a mainline or a tank), then not good. If it goes down at the end, then you're fine.

Also, don't use 3/16" on flat land....it will cause too much back-pressure and reduce sap yield. Just don't use it unless slope is 2% or better. Once slope gets higher, and you have a decent amount of total drop, then 3/16" performs much better. It is OK to have some amount of flat section at the top with a drop after that to produce the vacuum.

[maple flats]

At Tim Wilmot's presentations at the VVS Verona maple conf. this past Saturday, he showed examples of flat sections and even runs that were over the top of a hill and back down a little. He said, as long as on the main side you have the drop needed, you can pull across a flat section and even pull some from the other side of the hill, but you need good drop on the main side. 30+ is ideal but less works too, but not as good.
I ran several runs last year and most were on a relatively flat section but they all had 30'+ of drop from the flat area to the mainlines and they ran good.
I suggest you run the top flatter section and continue down the steeper part all on a long run, with 25-30 taps on each.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I remember before I ever got into maple sap tubing systems being a young apprentice learning how to siphon gas from my dads truck, draining a water bed in my first floor apartment and then the Hot tub on the back patio......YIKES that stuff had to go over the neighbors fence into the greenbelt. That you had to be very careful with. The longer to column of liquid going down hill the better the suction plain and simple

[lakeview maple]

Haynes is that really you? Glad to see you back .

[Snowmad]

Not sure how many taps you had in buckets, and how many your going to have total on 3/16, but you won't need near as many running 3/16 as you had on buckets.
I get more sap from 40 taps on 3/16 than I did from almost 300 on buckets.

Wow, when I hear things like that I wonder if I'll have too much sap on my hands! Glad I've upgraded his year to a 2x6 Leader Patriot. What a great time to be switching to new technology, the 3/16 should work perfect for me.

Thank you everyone for your replies. A couple other quick questions:

1) I have a new 5/16 bit but now I see the bag says 19/64 is recommended for tapping. To me, if I can't measure it with a tape measure there isn't a difference but I want to do things right too. Will I be OK with the 5/16 or is there really an appreciable difference between that and the 19/64?
2) What is the easiest/best way to determine drop? As previously state, I have used Google Earth but I don't feel that is very accurate. I have used the Garmin GPS from the car but that didn't feel all that accurate either when dealing with a few feet. Aside from a transit, is there an easy method anyone is using or are the easy ways I'm doing it the wrong ways? I guess big picture it doesn't matter since there is nothing I can do to change the topography of my land but I'm still curious.

Thanks everyone!

[Wanabe1972]

I have put 44 new 3/16 gravity in this year that are roughly 1200 feet from last to tank and 800 feet from first to last tap. The final 400 feet has 40 feet of drop. I have these spit into two lines . Can I really expect a gallon or more per tap per day. Jeff

[maple flats]

On a good flow day you will sometimes get better than 2 gal/day, on other days zero or very little.
For slope you can use fancy apps but a simple way that is "close enough" is to get a sight level, of which there are several. This is what I use: https://www.amazon.com/CST-Berger-17-620A-Hand-Level/dp/B002ISC2V2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1484226792&sr=8-3&keywords=site+level
Then it helps to have a helper but it can be done without. Without a helper I stand at the low end starting point and using the level I find a tree that is at ground level going uphill. I make note of that and walk to it. Then add your height to your eyes. Stand next to that tree exactly where you sighted it and repeat. As you work up the hill you add each time. For ease of example, lets say it is 5' from your eyes to the ground, if it takes more than 6 repeats to get up the hill, you have the 30' minimum, you can stop. On flatter slopes, use the hand held level again. In it you will see lines, on the model I use the greatest is 2% slope for a line, if that shows to be level with the ground as you sight a long distance you are at 2%, if the half way mark proves to be closer to what you have, then 1%. I own both automatic (self leveling) and manual leveling laser levels, but the hand level is all I use.
However, if I am planning a high lift, like pumping over a hill, I use my computer and go to: http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/elevation
There I zoom in and use the program to give me the elevation of the low point and the high point, then I add a fudge factor depending on how well I think I have accurately identified the two.

[billyinvt]

Not sure how many taps you had in buckets, and how many your going to have total on 3/16, but you won't need near as many running 3/16 as you had on buckets.
I get more sap from 40 taps on 3/16 than I did from almost 300 on buckets.
Yikes! I was thinking sap output would at least double, and possibly triple, but a 7 fold increase would have me looking to sell sap since I would have no way to process that much. Has anyone else had this much increase on 3/16?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Yes thanks Lakeview No Impostor Tried to PM but cant figure out :confused:

[themoonlighttapper]

Last year was our first year on 3/16". We got a late start to the season and still managed to get 11 gallons/tap off of predominately red maples in what seemed to be a poor sap year. We have considerable drop on our lines, as our lines running down a mountainside. Expecting to get about 15 gallons/tap this year. Others on here have reported getting 20-30 gallons/tap on a 3/16" setup.

[psparr]

Most of my trees are reds. I have a couple that performed well on buckets, but most stank. They are also all woods trees that are crowded by oaks.
Here's a pic of one of my gauges. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170112/e3bc8b74487e2980b1cb5fa634ca8fb8.jpg
I'm sure it's not exactly accurate, don't think you can achieve full vac.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Psparr I learned Liquid/Glycerin filled valves need to be equalized once you get them to the elevation you will be using them at. Just take a small screwdriver/knife and lift up the black stopper on the back or side. A small amount of liquid might come out but that wont effect it. I have had gauges jump 4 points after correcting. It sucks when it goes from 28 to 24 but having it read true vacuum is the goal. You can also fill a valve that has lost its liquid.

[UPMaple]

Not sure how many taps you had in buckets, and how many your going to have total on 3/16, but you won't need near as many running 3/16 as you had on buckets.
I get more sap from 40 taps on 3/16 than I did from almost 300 on buckets.

We tried the gravity vacuum 3/16 tubing last year and were amazed by the results. We have a pretty hilly Sugar bush and saw approximately 3-4 gallons per tap daily from mature Sugar Maples in the forest.

[Cody]

We had 900+ on 3/16 and ended up with just over 2700 gallons of sap,they run like crazy.

[DrTimPerkins]

We had 900+ on 3/16 and ended up with just over 2700 gallons of sap,they run like crazy.

I definitely do not mean to throw cold water on anybody's enthusiasm, and absolutely don't wish to put down 3/16" tubing in any way -- it is a real boon to producers who can't use a pump, but would like the extra production gained by using vacuum. I think it is important to keep in mind a couple of things.

1. When you go from 5/16" tubing, buckets, bags to 3/16" tubing on a slope, you are gaining vacuum. The level depends upon the amount of drop you have as well as how tight (leak-free) you are able to maintain the system. Vacuum will certainly increase your yields, with the amount gained being linearly proportional to the vacuum you pull.

2. The very first year you install a tubing system (either 5/16" or 3/16"), you have the most sanitary system you can get, and you will see some level of benefit from that factor alone. You'll never get the system that clean again, but can get closer to the optimum by using new plastic spouts each year and changing drops every 3 years, or by using new CV spouts each year. These approaches will help, but still aren't quite as good as that brand-new system.

3. In many maple producing areas, the 2016 season was a record setting year for production. We had sections of our woods that AVERAGED 50-55 gals/tap. While we all hope to see that again, I wouldn't calculate the number of gallons of syrup I can make (or my profits) based upon that year alone.

So if you installed 3/16" tubing for the first time for the 2016 season, just keep in mind the results might be a bit anomalous.

Regardless, I hope everyone is swimming in sap soon.

[UPMaple]

Thank you for the helpful info.