100 GPH RO Build for $2,000 - Pics, Video, Diagrams... Oh My!

[WoodButcher]

It’s a Christmas miracle; I’m done with my RO build!
We recently added another sugarmaker to the family (3-month old son), so I needed to make some adjustments since time is now my most prized possession. In walks the RO idea…

Honestly, I never thought I would build one since I felt it was messing with nature too much, and –like many- heard it detracted from the flavors and health benefits that make syrup so great. Well…Thanks to a ton of recent research from Dr Perkins and some innovations with membranes, the claims have been debunked. The impacts are less than 1%. Good enough for me.


Anyways, I spent hours weeding through posts on here looking at other’s builds and talking to Dave aka “bowhunter” a bunch of times to get the technical information I needed (pump size, membrane format, etc), and the below build is what I came up with. I also attached simple diagrams for both the hose routing from Dave and my electrical schematic for wiring the work box.

Below is my profile so you know where I’m coming from:
- D&G 2x6 raised flue which boils about 30-40 GPH… depending on wood and load frequency.
- Natural draft- I leave the ash door open and its good enough for me until I build an air over fire chassis. Never cared for AUF.
- ~225+ taps on buckets and gravity
- 40 amp 240v service in sugarhouse with water.


I wanted to future-proof myself as much as could on the major components so I built it as beefy as you can get within reason. Someday I will have many more taps and didn’t want to replace any of the components, just add another membrane.
- 1hp shallow well pump
- All 1” ID hoses before the Procon
- 2hp motor powering the 330gph Procon
- Biggest wheeled dolly I could find
- 1/8” thick square tube
- 3/16” thick flat iron braces
- 4.5”x10” Pentair Big Blue filter
- L090 oversized Lovejoys
- Large independent contactors for electrical


I knew I wanted to eventually put another 4” membrane next to my current one so made the flat iron wide enough to accommodate that.
I chose a 1HP well pump with 1” lines so I could supply the future double-membranes with enough sap as well. The 1” was tough to work with compared to the ½” hose but I know it’ll be worth it when I have 2 membranes and need the flow.

The unit is 240v since I have that in the sugarhouse. I brew beer in the shack throughout the year and need the 40 amps for the elements and chugger pumps.

I heard all the stories about how filmy concentrated sap can get when stored, and you need to clean out the equipment that touches it daily… so I decided to produce concentrate on the fly, rather than ahead of time and let it sit overnight until I boil. I will use a 30 gallon container to feed my evaporator with concentrate. It’ll be very accessible to clean after every boil.

After talking with Dave (Bowhunter), I knew the size of membrane I needed, the size of my pump, and the flowmeter range so I can dial this puppy in. The Procon decision was simple. This was the highest GPH pump in the series 4 lineup. Anything larger would have been over 2x more money, and 2x the repair cost when rebuilding.



Based on the parameters above with recirculation, I will remove 66% of the water if my flowmeters are set at:
Permeate: 1gpm
Concentrate: .56gpm
That’s why I chose a .2-2 permeate flowmeter, and a .1-1 concentrate flowmeter… the reading is smack in the middle of the gauge. Again, this is all based on a rough 33gph boil rate. This can all be easily adjusted via needle valves if I had a bigger rig/boiled faster, or wanted to slow down the output if I’m hosting an open house, or just drinking more beer than I should while boiling :lol: .



Some other notes:

- US Plastic has the best selection of Kynar fittings and high pressure hose (http://www.usplastic.com/ ). I debated on using brass compression fittings, but it was more money and it’s near impossible to find a 1/2” OD tube that can withstand 250 PSI AND be flexible enough to make those bends behind my control panel. The Kynar fittings are 250+ psi workable, and functioned flawlessly. No need for Brass if Kynar makes the fitting.
- I looked everywhere for pressure switches that were 100% waterproof and adjustable. The Gems have tested flawlessly.
- I went with an XLE-4040 membrane since they have the highest GPD rating and work at a lower pressure.
- I used horse stall mat to pad the SS membrane housing straps and the motor/pump mounts. It may or may not help with vibration dampening but doesn’t hurt.
- The harbor freight dolly was on sale for $50 minus a coupon I got online made it $35. I was going to weld up a dolly on my own which I really to, but this was too cheap to pass up. I’m glad I did this since the 13” tires and axle hardware would have been $45 alone, not including the $60 of steel for the homemade dolly frame.
- The electrical box was done the right way with 12-4 SOOW cord which can handle 30 amps (currently 13.9A total draw with 240v).
- 4 30-amp independent relays: 1 for main, 1 for the momentary switch, 1 for the well pump and 1 for the Procon.
- Temperature controller was only $15 on Amazon, but it only came with a simple probe to dangle into a pot. I instead bought a rtd probe that could thread into a npt connection but it wasn’t compatible with the box, since the box takes thermistor-style probe which are a pain to find in with npt fittings. So I suggest getting an Auber PID-style controller that takes 3-wire rtd probes (highly available) and just use it for temperature readout. Then-if you want- you can use it to control a wash tank later down the road. I didn’t need a wash tank as I have several 5-20 gallon PID-controlled SS pots with heating elements nearby I can use.
- I have a low pressure switch set to 30psi and a high pressure switch set to 250.
- The unit will drain fairly well, but no matter what you will have water in some of the hoses. You can use an air compressor and gently blow some air into your outlet hose ends.
- I chose the Winters 2.5” gauges since they were nice and large and flush mount. I looked real hard for liquid filled gauges in flush mount but all the mounting designs seemed to not be compatible with my aluminum plate. As a result, the dry gauge needles have a bit of a shake to them when the unit is on, but they work fine.



Well, that should do it for now! I had a lot of fun building this thing and can’t wait to use it with some real sap! I hope this info inspires you to get working on building your own!

[WoodButcher]

More pics and diagrams...

[WoodButcher]

more pics...

[WoodButcher]

the guts...

[Clinkis]

Very nice build. So when you add a 2nd membrane will it be in series or parallel?

[Bucket Head]

That's a good looking unit. Nice Job!
The only thing I'd be concerned with is taking the filter apart and the liquid getting on whats below it.
Congratulations on the new sugar making equipment and the new sugarmaker!
Steve

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Great job on the build. I wish I had built mine on a dolly so I could run it in the sugar house. But then again, I don't have 240v service out there so it would have added a major task to the project.

I think I am going to have to get the same flow meters you have. My recirc line is set up the same way and after to talking to Dave, 0.2-2.0 meters make more sense. My current meter won't really register anything usable if I run it the way Dave suggested.

Congrats on your new apprentice too.

[WoodButcher]

Thanks guys. Couldnt have done the build without Dave's diagram.

Questions answered:


i will run them in parallel if adding another membrane.

i have removed the filter full of water 3 times already on test runs and no water spills below... if youre careful. Nice thing is the electrical boxes below have rubber gaskets on them so im covered :)

ya these flowmeters work great and were only $65 for both. i have a parts list if anyone is interested

you can run this whole setup on 120v, both motors can do 120. It would be 28 amps on 120 though.

[Noah's Ark]

Great build, I am going to be building mine (a single 4x40, 120v unit) in Jan and your photos and drawing are going to be a big help. I would love to see your parts list, this is almost exactly what I am looking for.

[wishlist]

Nice build ! On my build I started with 1 membrane , then 2 , then last year 3 lol. I use xle4040's and run them in series . When you get to 3 , and it will happen, go with a multistage booster pump. Big difference in flow and less premature fouling of the membranes . I run around little over 3 gpm permeate and 5 plus gpm concentrate . I usually shut it down around 12% and still have good flow thru the membranes after running 600 gallons thru. Cost wise the booster pump is on par with the bigger procons and as a added bonus it will heat your wash water .

[Bucket Head]

Good to hear that everything below has gaskets!
Your going to wish you built one sooner after you boil concentrated sap! I bought a used one back in '11, after years of not wanting one and thinking I didn't need one.
I can tell you now my mindset back then was simply foolish.
Good luck with it and enjoy it!
Steve

[WoodButcher]

Thanks for the kind words everyone. I'm glad its going to help people out. I have had multiple private messages already from people wanting my parts list.
Good news is, I record/document everything (engineery brain), so below is my parts list with rough pricing and links. i also have reference links below some items.
The parts are essentially in an order based on the flow of the schematic, aside from the dolly build on top.


Enjoy!



Shopping list:


Dolly frame: $35
http://www.harborfreight.com/700-lb-capacity-bigfoot-hand-truck-62900.html

Extra steel: $60
72" 1.5 x 3/16" thick flat stock
10' 1"x1"x1/8 square tube
12ga aluminum plate (needed to polish myself, but the welding shop had the aluminum and used a hydraulic shear to cut it perfectly for me)


Parts in order of flow:


Shallow well 1hp pump: $140
maybe look elsewhere as this is cast iron.. it may rust if its not filled with glycol in the off season. only time will tell...

10A at 120V / 5A*at 240v
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deep-Well-or-Shallow-Well-Water-Jet-Pump-Various-HP-Ratings-Available-/271531242390?var=&hash=item3f3885f396:m:m9BWeGv1pgTuk4pvnMsJGgg

https://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/floforce-convertible-jet-pump-manual.pdf


Whole house filter 4.5x10. Pentair Big Blue : $30 - 15gpm
ebay auction

Filters: $53 for 12 (4.42 ea)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191808915068
maybe pick up pleated 5 micron filters so you can wash out the debris and reuse?

Filter bracket: $9
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004O3OP2S/ref=pd_bxgy_328_2?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004O3OP2S&pd_rd_r=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328&pd_rd_w=ucy9i&pd_rd_wg=a5KVr&psc=1&refRID=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328

Filter Wrench: $4
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0030NE2FS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


2 Pressure gauges for before and after sediment filter 100psi: $40
Remember, these work fine for now, but i think if they were liquid filled gauges they might last longer since the needle vibrates a bit with these. I couldnt find any flush mount liquid filled that mounted to thin metal
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0087UEJV6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
http://winters.com/wp-content/uploads/PEU.pdf

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Winters-Instruments-PEU-Series-2-5-in-Black-Steel-Case-Panel-Mounted-Pressure-Gauge-with-1-4-in-NPT-CBM-and-Range-of-0-100-psi-kPa-PEU1439UC/205962482


Low Pressure Switch set to turn on when greater than 30psi = $65
Black (Com) 1 Green (NC) 2 Red (NO) 3
Currently set at 30 PSI, which is ~6 full turns out from fully seated for reference

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPYA4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
references:
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209166
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


2hp motor: $200
5/8" shaft, 3/16" key
Full Load Amps: 17.8/8.9
http://www.ptjindustrial.com/Sierra_Electric_Motor_S2_18_56C_p/s2-18-56c.htm
or ebay. but direct was cheaper.


Procon high pressure brass 330GPH pump :
330gph bolt on / flat shaft: $145 shipped
1/2" ports
Call and request 114E330F11XX since it is food grade (1 *1* 4)
http://edco-distributing.myshopify.com/products/series4proconpump
Specs: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_spec.pdf
Drawing: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_drawing.pdf


Mounting Bracket for series 4: $40
https://www.amazon.com/1048-1C-Procon-Mounting-Bracket-models/dp/B007BG9A3Y

Coupler for Procon 330GPH: $15
7/16" shaft, no keyway
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-Standard-Coupling-Sintered-Keyway/dp/B004QWZXF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477966443&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+10768


Coupler for motor side 5/8" / 3/16"
L090 401 in lbs $7
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HIWP0A/ref=ox_huc_add_on_msg_title_1?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER



SOX spider:
SOX 194 in lbs $5
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-090-095-Coupling-Elastomer-Nominal/dp/B003HIWQN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477782293&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+11070


High pressure switch. set at 250psi: $65

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPZ62/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209505
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


Stainless Steel Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed: $105
ebay auction


4x40" membrane: $225
Filmtec XLE-4040 (14gpm max feed flow rate, 2600gpd)
ebay auction

research:
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_089a/0901b8038089a29f.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00349.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Fouling prevention
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0035/0901b803800358c5.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00308.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

How to insert membrane
http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-02069.pdf


High Pressure Gauge : $18
https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Economical-Pressure-Internals-Accuracy/dp/B0087UD76Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1478220784&sr=8-3&keywords=winters+0-300+psi


2 SS needle valves: $140 for 2
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4865-panel-mount-needle-valve-12-fnpt-316-ss.aspx



Flowmeter for permeate and concentrate :$65

CONCENTRATE - .1-1
PERMEATE - .2-2
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1001-M-p/lzt-1001-m.htm
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1002-M-p/lzt-1002-m.htm

reference: http://www.greatlakesintl.com/assets/FM_flow-meters_gauges.pdf


Electrical Panel Gear:
13.9a total on 240v
28 on total on 120v

4 240v 30a coil relays: $40
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001KGSJ74/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

all led's and switches are 22mm and can be found on amazon or ebay
1 on/off switch
1 blue "on" led light
1 green light to indicate NO side of the low pressure switch is now NC due to hitting 30psi
1 alarm buzzer to indicate NO on high pressure switch since pressure is too high and to shut down
1 push button momentary to manually turn on well pump on initial startup


Enclosure: $20
ebay is best. try and make it waterproof

Temperature Controller: $16
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0152LYY0I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wire:

25' 12-4 power cord for wall plus ends: $66


14/3 gauge SO wire for pump and procon to box: $50
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IO6TOE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


15' enclosed 1/4" dia or less 3wire for 2 switches: $10
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010IBYA7E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
(might want to get 4 wire enclosed but i just used 3-wire and didnt use the ground). needs to be around .25"-.30" OD max to fit into the pressure switches above)

Hoses and connections: ~$450 for all


High Pressure hose and fittings:
1/2" hose
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=121431&catid=993

Kynar fittings:
be careful, basic nylon fittings are mixed in with them in the list. the kynars are towards the bottom of each page.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.aspx?catid=551&clickid=popcorn

[MISugarDaddy]

Not only did you do a beautiful build, very clean and neat, but your parts list is equally neatly arranged. Nice job. You will REALLY enjoy making syrup now.
Gary

[Bricklayer]

I just bought the exact temperature controller off eBay. With the same little probe. I'm going to try getting a compression fitting similar to the ones that come with the pt100 probes from auber and screw it into a tee on the low pressure side of the RO.
Did you find a different probe or did you use the one that came with the temp controller?

[WoodButcher]

I just bought the exact temperature controller off eBay. With the same little probe. I'm going to try getting a compression fitting similar to the ones that come with the pt100 probes from auber and screw it into a tee on the low pressure side of the RO.
Did you find a different probe or did you use the one that came with the temp controller?

Update:

Good news if you bought the same Inkbird temp controller thats on my RO. Just buy the proper 1/4" or 1/8" compression fitting for their included generic submersible probe and put in a tee as bricklayer stated, and you're good to go. the Inkbird needs a thermistor probe with the proper ohm range made for that box.

i already bought an exhaust gas probe with compression fitting for the Inkbird box but found out it wasnt compatible. Luckily the probe portion is 5mm too so i just swapped the compression fitting out and all is good. Good idea bricklayer!

below is the incompatible probe i bought, but used the compression pieces:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171913316668?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Bricklayer]

Were you able to incorporate the temp controller for a high temp shut down? I put my controller on heat mode and ran the main power for my control relays through the temp controller. In heat mode the temp controller relay is NC so power travels through. If high temp is reached the relay opens and system shuts down. My control system with 2 contractors and 4 coil relays only draws 3 amps max 120v and temp controller is rated for 10 amp 120v. Reason I ran main power through it is because when running a long wash cycle and not around it cuts all power to RO when done. Just like shutting it off.

[WoodButcher]

I havent looked into high temp shutdown. Is it something that happens often? What components are in danger if high temps are hit? I know the membrane should be kept an eye on. I just planned on being around to monitor when i do the 10-20min wash cycles.

[Bricklayer]

Since I've built my RO I've been reading and learning about how to use/ wash it properly. I have an old membrane I've been playing around with also so I've got a feel for how the RO will operate. One thing I have read almost everywhere is that you get the best cleaning of the membranes when the wash temp can be brought to the max wash temp of the membrane. In my case since I have a multi stage pump the pump actually heats up the wash water slightly while circulating it. A ran a complete wash cycle on my old membrane before Christmas. I brought the water up to 105 F with a drop in pail heater. Dumped it into the wash tank. Cycled it through untill my high temp shut off kicked RO off at 113.5 My MES membrane say the are rated for 113 F so that's what temp I set it toTook about 40 minutes I think. Might of been longer. I was doing other stuff while it was washing. Good practice for maple season.

[wiam]

I havent looked into high temp shutdown. Is it something that happens often? What components are in danger is high temps are hit? I know the membrane should be kept an eye on. I just planned on being around to monitor when i do the 10-20min wash cycles.

Mine shuts off on high temp every day when I do a wash cycle after concentrating.

[WoodButcher]

Fair enough. Ill connect the NC side of the temp controller to the main on/off power switch on my electrical box. That way the whole box will shut down when its hit.

[Bricklayer]

Tried to pm you but your mailbox was full.
Double check you amp rating on your controller. The way you want it to run is that to start it back up you need to press the momentary switch. What I did to make sure it worked was run the RO normal then remove the power source I was going to run through the controller. Quickly put it back on to make sure system wouldn't start back up. You can simulate this with a regular switch for testing purposes to make it a bit safer. Once you find the right interrupt point install your controller.
I tested mine by setting shut off to 90 F and turning system on and putting probe in hot water. Pull it out right away to make sure system dosnt start right away. I think theses controllers have built in time delays to protect the controller relay and the device they are switching. Not sure if you can set that in the settings or not

[WoodButcher]

Sounds good. I designed my RO wiring diagram in the second post above so that it will not come back on unless pressure are between 30psi and 250psi. i have shut the unit off in the middle of a test and it would be impossible for it to come back on seeing how the pressure drops to zero in no time at all. Ill play around with it and see what i can figure out. I can always tie it into the purple NC wire above which would cut off the pumps but not the momentary switch.

[Bricklayer]

I found a compression fitting yesterday for the probe. It's 3/16 compression fitting. Hard to find in a store. Not common. One I found was 3/16 compression to 1/8 npt.

[WoodButcher]

Hey everyone,

This is just a thought, but I was thinking of using a 5 micron pleated prefilter instead of the typical melted polypropylene. My theory is the grooved/pleated material can be washed with hot water after each boil and you can reuse them. This is the same style as my hot tub filters which see some nasty stuff and get rinsed by this creative 'comb' rinser i use (see below). The flow would be better too, although 15GPM with the current ploy will suffice.

In an ideal world i would put 2 prefilters if i had the room: pleated and then poly. One suggestion: maybe take the outlet of the well pump, swing it to the back of the dolly, and mount 2 of them on either side of the main center frame in the back.

Let me know what you think!

pleated filters:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0110LTRU6/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2BWUJVHIZZU4N&coliid=I2PNDJ9KSBIHT1

comb cleaning tool
https://www.amazon.com/Mi-Way-Aquacomb-Filter-Cartridge-Cleaner/dp/B00818KY0Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483284588&sr=8-1&keywords=filter+comb

[jmayerl]

You won't want to reuse any filters as they get loaded with bacteria so quickly. Some stuff you just can't wash off and is well worth the $3 it costs for a new filter every day.

[WoodButcher]

You won't want to reuse any filters as they get loaded with bacteria so quickly. Some stuff you just can't wash off and is well worth the $3 it costs for a new filter every day.

Thanks. i was thinking that might be the case...

[Bricklayer]

Is a new filter used for a rinse\wash also or is the days filter just left in?

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Is a new filter used for a rinse\wash also or is the days filter just left in?

I think the best practice is to use a new filter for each run of sap. Then use a separate filter that can be used multiple times for washing only. That's what I did it worked fine. I would think a sap filter would start stinking after a day due to rapid bacterial growth feeding on residual sugar trapped in the filter.

[jmayerl]

I have separate soap and acid filters that I reuse for multiple cycles

[wiam]

I concentrate, wash, put in new filter and rinse. Then it is ready for next day.

[WoodButcher]

I have separate soap and acid filters that I reuse for multiple cycles

So this makes a lot of sense...
concentrate and boil.
run the rinse cycle with the same filter and discard.
then...
keep a separate seasonal chemical/wash filter at rest when needed?

That said, how do you guys keep/store them? In a separate home depot bucket full of permeate? Im assuming once theyre wet youll want to keep em wet...

I will probably only be processing about 300 gal of sap every boil so i would go through 6-12 filters a season.

[jmayerl]

Yes, each wash and acid filter has its own container. You will understand once you actually do it. Just try letting a filter that had concentrate run through it then sit for a few hours.

[Wanabe1972]

I have always pulled the filter after I concentrate and run my wash/rinse/acid cycle without a filter in the canister. I'm am using permeate that should be about as pure as you can get and it has already been filtered. Then the next time I run it I add a new filter. I've found 5 micron filters on eBay in a box of 24 for around 36 dollars. Jeff

[WoodButcher]

Sounds good. One thing that still puzzles me is what people use to test their new setups, as well as start up at the beginning of the season. i heard about 100 gallons would suffice for a rig my size in flushing out the SMBS.

For now i have been using my house's kitchen sink RO unit to collect about 10-20 gallons of RO water to test the rig in the garage. I couldnt imagine collecting 100 gallons of that over days and lugging that to the garage to run through the new ro to rinse the SMBS off the membrane before the first boil.

Whats the big deal with just using well water for my new rig testing and the initial season startup? Sure, i have iron and sulfur in my well water like everyone else, but its not bad at all. You can taste the iron for sure when its raw, but its totally drinkable.
I have a nifty filter that goes on the end of my garden hose when i refill the hot tub that i could use. Its supposed to remove some of the metals before it hits the hot tub. The way i see it, a tree is full of minerals, so is it really that harmful?

Another side note: whats worse, raw well water filtered or softened water from a home water softener (salt pellets)? The water in my sugarhouse is the softened just like in the house. However i have access to both raw well and softened well water.

Thanks guys.

[Bricklayer]

I was given an old xle-4040 from a friend of mine. I used that to test my RO and make 275 gallons of permeate from well water that I'm going to use at start of season. If your well water isn't real hard I would think it would be fine to use. As long as there is no chlorine in it. Run the well water through, make some permeate, flush membrane with permeate. Ready to go. I don't have the option of running 500 gallons of first run sap through my RO and dumping it like some people do. That 500 gallons is getting made into syrup.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

You could buy 5 gallons of distilled water to wet your membrane and test for leaks at operating pressure. That's what I did. It's OK to use well water for flushing but I would not operate at a concentration pressure. Instead, just operate at high flow, low pressure to flush it. Then maybe run another 5 gallons of distilled through it and you're good. Remember that once your membrane is wet, it must stay wet for its lifetime.

I will be running de-chlorinated city water through mine to flush SMBS and then probably 5-10 gallons of distilled water. After the 2017 season I plan to keep 50 or so gallons of permeate for starting in 2018. Hopefully the water will last in between seasons.

[Clinkis]

I've been running a couple hundred gallons of well water through mine for the past couple years to flush it at the start of the season and make permeate to get it ready for the season. I'm sure it's not ideal but I've had no issues. I would think that as long as you keep presssure low there should be no damage to membrane. Some of the sap later in the season I've ran through it I'm sure is worse.

[WoodButcher]

Brick, I think thats the way im gonna go, but ill use the soft well water that is at the sugarhouse. Being a Lazy non-working Monday and the baby is napping, I had time to dig deep on google, and it looks like hardness from raw well water is the 2nd worst thing for a membrane (chlorinated city water being #1), and people use softened well water all the time in sugarhouses. Come to think of it... when you use a big whole house RO system, its mandatory to have a salt pellet softener to pre-treat the ro water... so im sure its fine.

Ill just use 150gal of softened water to flush out smbs
- Run off first 10min of both concentrate AND permeate to the ground just in case
- then collect remaining permeate for a flush with needle valves all the way out (low pressure) / high recirc and use the final leftover permeate to flush. then ill be ready :)

Just need to figure out when to use low pressure with needle valves out vs full operating pressure around 125-200psi... wash at high pressure and rinse at low?

[Bricklayer]

Both wash and rinse cycles should be high flow low pressure. So you'd want your concentrate needle valve all the way out. I open my recirc valve a little just to flush it out. Brings pressure down a little also. Pressure runs a little over 110 psi. I get a slight trickle of permeate with this setup. My understanding is you want to be making as little permeate as possible. You want the flow to be going through the concentrate side of membrane to flush it out. 110 psi might be a little high for washing/ rinsing but it's the lowest I can get my pressure down to. If I just run the feed pump I get about 45-50 psi pushing it through the hp pump so I run both.

[WoodButcher]

Good news,

I configured the temp controller so that it will now turn off both pumps when the set temp of 110 is hit since 113 is the max operating temp for an XLE-4040 membrane.
To wire properly, do as Bricklayer suggested and cut into a <10a power line main (maybe the contactor relay 110v coil... or do what i did and cut into the NC purple line in my diagram above, before it splits to the pump contactors). Connect that cut power line to terminals 5 and 6 since those show continuity (NC) on any temp lower than the set temp (TS) (mine is set to 110 degrees).

Now, its very important to difference set value (DS). Set it to something like 5 degrees. Terminals 5 and 6 will not click back on until its 5 degrees or less in temp. By that time, your pressure will have dropped and the unit will not be able to automatically turn on without you taking action.


For example:
my set temp (TS) is at 110
my dif. set value (DS) is 5

Once 110 is hit, the pumps will turn off (Normally Open), and wont have the ability to turn on until the temp is 105 degrees or less. Once temp is 105 of less, terminals 5 and 6 will show continuity, and then the whole process starts over :)

This will be cool to test on my wash/rinse cycle (set it and forget it) and prevent any membrane damage in general.

[Bricklayer]

Were you able to plumb the sensor into your RO. I had to get a 3/16 compression fitting. Was a bit big and 1/8 was to small. So I got some really thin wall Vinyl tubing and slipped it over the sensor where compression sleeve goes. Compression sleeve just fit over it and tightened nut down. Had to drill out the interior of the fitting also because probe wouldn't fit through. Installed it in a tee and works great. I teed it into the intake of the feed pump. Not a lot of pressure here so no worry about it leaking. I'll post a pic tonight if I remember.

[WoodButcher]

I just use the compression fitting from the EGR probe I bought on eBay that I posted about several posted ago. The probe was not a thermistor probe so it wasn't compatible. I just pulled out the probe, put in the $.86 probe from eBay, and tightened it up and all is well. The probe I got from eBay was stainless and about 2 inches long so it worked out fine. The probe that came with the temperature controller unit was rubber-coated and oblong in shape and not perfectly round so it wouldn't have worked with a compression fitting. I wanted as much wires behind my control panel as possible, so I wired it just before the inlet of the sediment filter

[Bricklayer]

do you have the link to ntc probe you bought. I want to order a couple extra. My cord was a little short 3' and I extended it. Would be nice to get one with a longer cord. Then I'm not second guessing myself if the temp is right or not.

[WoodButcher]

Here is the probe that worked fine. I added +6 to correct for temperature from the OEM rubber-coated probe, fyi...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142130816421?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[WoodButcher]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201744509895?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[WoodButcher]

Hey everyone. I got a couple cleaning questions to run by you.
So far this is what I plan on doing, but wanted to make sure I’m making sense :D

I plan on using hot water to clean on every boil day (should be about 3-4hrs long).

1. run 5 min of permeate through the membrane, but save what comes out of the concentrate hose and put that sugar water back in the flue pan since there’s some sugar wash in there. Once there is no sugar left, stop the unit

2. I will have 10-15 gallons of 110 degree permeate in a separate pot. I will hook up the RO feed line to the hot pot and open up the needle valves all the way out so there is high flow. I will almost close the recirc valve all the way, just so it cleans out. I will put the permeate hose in the top of the hot water pot, creating a clean recirc loop for about 10-15 minutes with hot water… but I will put the concentrate hose down the drain. This part is not talked about too much on here, as I don’t know if I should loop the concentrate hose with the permeate hose in the hot water pot and just run them both in a loop for 20 minutes... or just the permeate hose since that water has been cleaned?

3. Once the hot water is gone, turn off unit, and then hook the RO feed line to about 150 gallons of cold permeate and run it through the RO with high flow, and run it all on the ground. Leave the rest of the permeate that’s stuck in the system to keep it wet, and then roll her into the house.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

[Bricklayer]

Hey everyone. I got a couple cleaning questions to run by you.
So far this is what I plan on doing, but wanted to make sure I’m making sense :D

I plan on using hot water to clean on every boil day (should be about 3-4hrs long).

1. run 5 min of permeate through the membrane, but save what comes out of the concentrate hose and put that sugar water back in the flue pan since there’s some sugar wash in there. Once there is no sugar left, stop the unit

2. I will have 10-15 gallons of 110 degree permeate in a separate pot. I will hook up the RO feed line to the hot pot and open up the needle valves all the way out so there is high flow. I will almost close the recirc valve all the way, just so it cleans out. I will put the permeate hose in the top of the hot water pot, creating a clean recirc loop for about 10-15 minutes with hot water… but I will put the concentrate hose down the drain. This part is not talked about too much on here, as I don’t know if I should loop the concentrate hose with the permeate hose in the hot water pot and just run them both in a loop for 20 minutes... or just the permeate hose since that water has been cleaned?

3. Once the hot water is gone, turn off unit, and then hook the RO feed line to about 150 gallons of cold permeate and run it through the RO with high flow, and run it all on the ground. Leave the rest of the permeate that’s stuck in the system to keep it wet, and then roll her into the house.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.


I think you have a good system. I'm planning pretty much the same routine, maybe a little longer rinse after pushing the sugar out. Maybe 15 minute rinse. Then with your warm permeate cycle you could do a soap wash. Maybe not needed every cycle but it dosnt hurt. A soap wash you will circulate your concentrate and permeate back into wash tank and cycle it through until it reaches proper temp. And stays proper ph for your membrane. I found on my mine if I start the permeate at 90f it will wash for 40 minutes until it reaches 105f and shuts off. Flush it out with remainder of permeate and done for the night. That's my plan anyways. This will be my first year using my RO so I'm no expert but have read a lot of posts on how guys wash it. And if you have access to warm permeate it will make a huge difference. No way of heating 200+ gallons ever that would be a waste of energy and would take forever. But even 10 gallons of warm permeate probley makes a world of difference even without soap.

[WoodButcher]

Glad my process makes sense. One thing I'm not clear on is how much sodium hydroxide to use if I were to put some in, let's say, 10 gallons of hot water. I read somewhere that no matter how much you put in the pH will never go higher than 11 or whatever.

With my XLE–4040 membrane, as long as you keep the pH in between 3-10 you can go up to 113°. I just need to know how much to add. I bought 5 pounds of it 😀

[Bricklayer]

If your using straight sodium hydroxide it will not have a buffer. Dealer soaps like CDL superflow and ultisil 10 have built in buffers. I did a couple soap washs on my older membranes I've been using to test my RO and it dosnt take much soap. I had 5-7 gallons in wash tank and maybe added 1 cup of soap max to the water to get it to proper ph of 11. Let it run for a couple minutes maybe 5. Checked PH and added a tbsp maybe to get the ph back up. What I did notice was the foam buildup in the wash tank using the soap. Was like a bubble bath. I'm using CDL superflow soap.

[wiam]

If your using straight sodium hydroxide it will not have a buffer. Dealer soaps like CDL superflow and ultisil 10 have built in buffers. I did a couple soap washs on my older membranes I've been using to test my RO and it dosnt take much soap. I had 5-7 gallons in wash tank and maybe added 1 cup of soap max to the water to get it to proper ph of 11. Let it run for a couple minutes maybe 5. Checked PH and added a tbsp maybe to get the ph back up. What I did notice was the foam buildup in the wash tank using the soap. Was like a bubble bath. I'm using CDL superflow soap.

If I see lots of foam I figure membrane is very dirty and I will do a short rinse after first wash and do another wash.

[WoodButcher]

well I have run 1000+ gallons through this little guy and it has worked great. i can get over 5% sugar on the fly (.6gpm concentrate/1gpm permeate) at 250psi... not too bad. the pressure is a bit higher than i initially thought but thats fine. What i end up doing is running the RO at a slower rate a few hours prior to boiling ... about .3gpm concentrate and .8gpm permeate and that comes out about 8%. Then when i start the boil i go back to my evaporation rate which is .6gpm.

Hindsight i would have bought another membrane and put it in series with this one. that way i can run 6-8% all day at a lower pressure than 250. but this is totally unneccessary and im only being critical. Plus its an added expense and i would need twice the permeate to clean, etc.

Hope this helps!

(photo from today)

[Geroldn]

RO was invented for water purification, whether it is iron well water or seawater. It will remove iron, sulfur, salt, or best of all sugar from sap. I will use permeate for rinsing my RO at my sugar house, but when I'm flushing the RO or doing a soap wash then I'm doing that at home using well water.

[Luisc]

It’s a Christmas miracle; I’m done with my RO build!
We recently added another sugarmaker to the family (3-month old son), so I needed to make some adjustments since time is now my most prized possession. In walks the RO idea…

Honestly, I never thought I would build one since I felt it was messing with nature too much, and –like many- heard it detracted from the flavors and health benefits that make syrup so great. Well…Thanks to a ton of recent research from Dr Perkins and some innovations with membranes, the claims have been debunked. The impacts are less than 1%. Good enough for me.


Anyways, I spent hours weeding through posts on here looking at other’s builds and talking to Dave aka “bowhunter” a bunch of times to get the technical information I needed (pump size, membrane format, etc), and the below build is what I came up with. I also attached simple diagrams for both the hose routing from Dave and my electrical schematic for wiring the work box.

Below is my profile so you know where I’m coming from:
- D&G 2x6 raised flue which boils about 30-40 GPH… depending on wood and load frequency.
- Natural draft- I leave the ash door open and its good enough for me until I build an air over fire chassis. Never cared for AUF.
- ~225+ taps on buckets and gravity
- 40 amp 240v service in sugarhouse with water.


I wanted to future-proof myself as much as could on the major components so I built it as beefy as you can get within reason. Someday I will have many more taps and didn’t want to replace any of the components, just add another membrane.
- 1hp shallow well pump
- All 1” ID hoses before the Procon
- 2hp motor powering the 330gph Procon
- Biggest wheeled dolly I could find
- 1/8” thick square tube
- 3/16” thick flat iron braces
- 4.5”x10” Pentair Big Blue filter
- L090 oversized Lovejoys
- Large independent contactors for electrical


I knew I wanted to eventually put another 4” membrane next to my current one so made the flat iron wide enough to accommodate that.
I chose a 1HP well pump with 1” lines so I could supply the future double-membranes with enough sap as well. The 1” was tough to work with compared to the ½” hose but I know it’ll be worth it when I have 2 membranes and need the flow.

The unit is 240v since I have that in the sugarhouse. I brew beer in the shack throughout the year and need the 40 amps for the elements and chugger pumps.

I heard all the stories about how filmy concentrated sap can get when stored, and you need to clean out the equipment that touches it daily… so I decided to produce concentrate on the fly, rather than ahead of time and let it sit overnight until I boil. I will use a 30 gallon container to feed my evaporator with concentrate. It’ll be very accessible to clean after every boil.

After talking with Dave (Bowhunter), I knew the size of membrane I needed, the size of my pump, and the flowmeter range so I can dial this puppy in. The Procon decision was simple. This was the highest GPH pump in the series 4 lineup. Anything larger would have been over 2x more money, and 2x the repair cost when rebuilding.



Based on the parameters above with recirculation, I will remove 66% of the water if my flowmeters are set at:
Permeate: 1gpm
Concentrate: .56gpm
That’s why I chose a .2-2 permeate flowmeter, and a .1-1 concentrate flowmeter… the reading is smack in the middle of the gauge. Again, this is all based on a rough 33gph boil rate. This can all be easily adjusted via needle valves if I had a bigger rig/boiled faster, or wanted to slow down the output if I’m hosting an open house, or just drinking more beer than I should while boiling :lol: .



Some other notes:

- US Plastic has the best selection of Kynar fittings and high pressure hose (http://www.usplastic.com/ ). I debated on using brass compression fittings, but it was more money and it’s near impossible to find a 1/2” OD tube that can withstand 250 PSI AND be flexible enough to make those bends behind my control panel. The Kynar fittings are 250+ psi workable, and functioned flawlessly. No need for Brass if Kynar makes the fitting.
- I looked everywhere for pressure switches that were 100% waterproof and adjustable. The Gems have tested flawlessly.
- I went with an XLE-4040 membrane since they have the highest GPD rating and work at a lower pressure.
- I used horse stall mat to pad the SS membrane housing straps and the motor/pump mounts. It may or may not help with vibration dampening but doesn’t hurt.
- The harbor freight dolly was on sale for $50 minus a coupon I got online made it $35. I was going to weld up a dolly on my own which I really to, but this was too cheap to pass up. I’m glad I did this since the 13” tires and axle hardware would have been $45 alone, not including the $60 of steel for the homemade dolly frame.
- The electrical box was done the right way with 12-4 SOOW cord which can handle 30 amps (currently 13.9A total draw with 240v).
- 4 30-amp independent relays: 1 for main, 1 for the momentary switch, 1 for the well pump and 1 for the Procon.
- Temperature controller was only $15 on Amazon, but it only came with a simple probe to dangle into a pot. I instead bought a rtd probe that could thread into a npt connection but it wasn’t compatible with the box, since the box takes thermistor-style probe which are a pain to find in with npt fittings. So I suggest getting an Auber PID-style controller that takes 3-wire rtd probes (highly available) and just use it for temperature readout. Then-if you want- you can use it to control a wash tank later down the road. I didn’t need a wash tank as I have several 5-20 gallon PID-controlled SS pots with heating elements nearby I can use.
- I have a low pressure switch set to 30psi and a high pressure switch set to 250.
- The unit will drain fairly well, but no matter what you will have water in some of the hoses. You can use an air compressor and gently blow some air into your outlet hose ends.
- I chose the Winters 2.5” gauges since they were nice and large and flush mount. I looked real hard for liquid filled gauges in flush mount but all the mounting designs seemed to not be compatible with my aluminum plate. As a result, the dry gauge needles have a bit of a shake to them when the unit is on, but they work fine.



Well, that should do it for now! I had a lot of fun building this thing and can’t wait to use it with some real sap! I hope this info inspires you to get working on building your own!

Can you tell me wheat kind of needle valves you are using? I am in search of 2 like you have but everything i find has low flow and i want to make sure the needle valves can flow alot of GPM.

[MT Pockets Producer]

Looks similar to this one in his pics. This is what we used after seeing his and it works well. Using it with a multistage pump that puts out about 8 GPM total. We are running 3/4 to 1 GPM of permeate and anywhere from 3/4 to 4 GPMs concentrate depending on what we choose to do. The rest is being recirculated through this valve without issue.
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4865-panel-mount-needle-valve-12-fnpt-316-ss.aspx

[Luisc]

Looks similar to this one in his pics. This is what we used after seeing his and it works well. Using it with a multistage pump that puts out about 8 GPM total. We are running 3/4 to 1 GPM of permeate and anywhere from 3/4 to 4 GPMs concentrate depending on what we choose to do. The rest is being recirculated through this valve without issue.
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4865-panel-mount-needle-valve-12-fnpt-316-ss.aspx

I tried to order the same ones and they are not in stock at freshwatersystems :(.

[MT Pockets Producer]

It was backordered for a few weeks when I submitted my order and it ended up shipping direct from a supplier if I remember correctly. I can dig out my paperwork to verify but I won't have access to it until tomorrow evening.

[mkoehler79]

I tried to order the same ones and they are not in stock at freshwatersystems :(. Look on Amazon. Many options available for stainless needle valves.

[jetdoc]

So how did your ro work out for you this season? Do have any numbers on how it performed performed​? Actually how many gallons per hour it did you. Any information would be great.

[WoodButcher]

hey there.
it went great! i would typically start it a couple hours before i light the arch. That way i could make 8% but thats only at .3gpm concentrate (18gph), half the gpm rate i need to produce on the fly.

With a 35gph boil rate on my 2x6, the RO could keep up no problem but had to be set at .6gpm concentrate (36gph), which ended up being 5.1% bx at about 275psi. that worked out perfect.
I was told by Dave (bowhunter) my pressures are higher than they should be, and i might have a faulty xle4040 membrane, but hey i cant complain. 2/3 water removal works for me.

the original goal was to size this to boil on the fly and remove a minimum of 1/2 the water, and i accomplished this and then some (~65%). i honeslty wouldnt change anything.

[bmbmkr]

how big of a wash tank do I need?

[WoodButcher]

not big. 10-15 gallons was good enough for me for circulating. i have heard people using less though (~8gal for 1 membrane)

[bmbmkr]

How much benefit is a small heated wash tank versus saving all of my permeate in a 275 Gal IBC tote and flushing with it after the run, or during if I get fouling? I'm looking at running 250-500 gal of sap through the RO. 250 taps on 3/16" high slope.

[WoodButcher]

Hey there. I have a similar tap count as you.

Well as we all know hot water cleans lot better than cold water. Your best bet is to just have a 7-10 gallon pot and put an inexpensive heat stick in that pot that can run off of 120v. This will allow you to heat up the water/lye mix to around 90 - 110° depending on the instructions of your membranes. This is what I do. I just take some of the permeate and heat up with a heat stick I used to use a long time ago to electrically heat up water for brewing beer.

I didn't incorporate a built-in pot on my set up because I wanted portability. If you would like my cleaning schedule you can message me

[Ccbrit]

[QUOTE=WoodButcher;314844]Thanks for the kind words everyone. I'm glad its going to help people out. I have had multiple private messages already from people wanting my parts list.
Good news is, I record/document everything (engineery brain), so below is my parts list with rough pricing and links. i also have reference links below some items.
The parts are essentially in an order based on the flow of the schematic, aside from the dolly build on top.


Enjoy!



Shopping list:


Dolly frame: $35
http://www.harborfreight.com/700-lb-capacity-bigfoot-hand-truck-62900.html

Extra steel: $60
72" 1.5 x 3/16" thick flat stock
10' 1"x1"x1/8 square tube
12ga aluminum plate (needed to polish myself, but the welding shop had the aluminum and used a hydraulic shear to cut it perfectly for me)


Parts in order of flow:


Shallow well 1hp pump: $140
maybe look elsewhere as this is cast iron.. it may rust if its not filled with glycol in the off season. only time will tell...

10A at 120V / 5A*at 240v
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deep-Well-or-Shallow-Well-Water-Jet-Pump-Various-HP-Ratings-Available-/271531242390?var=&hash=item3f3885f396:m:m9BWeGv1pgTuk4pvnMsJGgg

https://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/floforce-convertible-jet-pump-manual.pdf


Whole house filter 4.5x10. Pentair Big Blue : $30 - 15gpm
ebay auction

Filters: $53 for 12 (4.42 ea)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191808915068
maybe pick up pleated 5 micron filters so you can wash out the debris and reuse?

Filter bracket: $9
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004O3OP2S/ref=pd_bxgy_328_2?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004O3OP2S&pd_rd_r=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328&pd_rd_w=ucy9i&pd_rd_wg=a5KVr&psc=1&refRID=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328

Filter Wrench: $4
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0030NE2FS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


2 Pressure gauges for before and after sediment filter 100psi: $40
Remember, these work fine for now, but i think if they were liquid filled gauges they might last longer since the needle vibrates a bit with these. I couldnt find any flush mount liquid filled that mounted to thin metal
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0087UEJV6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
http://winters.com/wp-content/uploads/PEU.pdf

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Winters-Instruments-PEU-Series-2-5-in-Black-Steel-Case-Panel-Mounted-Pressure-Gauge-with-1-4-in-NPT-CBM-and-Range-of-0-100-psi-kPa-PEU1439UC/205962482


Low Pressure Switch set to turn on when greater than 30psi = $65
Black (Com) 1 Green (NC) 2 Red (NO) 3
Currently set at 30 PSI, which is ~6 full turns out from fully seated for reference

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPYA4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
references:
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209166
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


2hp motor: $200
5/8" shaft, 3/16" key
Full Load Amps: 17.8/8.9
http://www.ptjindustrial.com/Sierra_Electric_Motor_S2_18_56C_p/s2-18-56c.htm
or ebay. but direct was cheaper.


Procon high pressure brass 330GPH pump :
330gph bolt on / flat shaft: $145 shipped
1/2" ports
Call and request 114E330F11XX since it is food grade (1 *1* 4)
http://edco-distributing.myshopify.com/products/series4proconpump
Specs: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_spec.pdf
Drawing: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_drawing.pdf


Mounting Bracket for series 4: $40
https://www.amazon.com/1048-1C-Procon-Mounting-Bracket-models/dp/B007BG9A3Y

Coupler for Procon 330GPH: $15
7/16" shaft, no keyway
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-Standard-Coupling-Sintered-Keyway/dp/B004QWZXF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477966443&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+10768


Coupler for motor side 5/8" / 3/16"
L090 401 in lbs $7
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HIWP0A/ref=ox_huc_add_on_msg_title_1?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER



SOX spider:
SOX 194 in lbs $5
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-090-095-Coupling-Elastomer-Nominal/dp/B003HIWQN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477782293&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+11070


High pressure switch. set at 250psi: $65

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPZ62/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209505
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


Stainless Steel Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed: $105
ebay auction


4x40" membrane: $225
Filmtec XLE-4040 (14gpm max feed flow rate, 2600gpd)
ebay auction

research:
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_089a/0901b8038089a29f.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00349.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Fouling prevention
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0035/0901b803800358c5.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00308.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

How to insert membrane
http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-02069.pdf


High Pressure Gauge : $18
https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Economical-Pressure-Internals-Accuracy/dp/B0087UD76Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1478220784&sr=8-3&keywords=winters+0-300+psi


2 SS needle valves: $140 for 2
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4865-panel-mount-needle-valve-12-fnpt-316-ss.aspx



Flowmeter for permeate and concentrate :$65

CONCENTRATE - .1-1
PERMEATE - .2-2
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1001-M-p/lzt-1001-m.htm
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1002-M-p/lzt-1002-m.htm

reference: http://www.greatlakesintl.com/assets/FM_flow-meters_gauges.pdf


Electrical Panel Gear:
13.9a total on 240v
28 on total on 120v

4 240v 30a coil relays: $40
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001KGSJ74/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

all led's and switches are 22mm and can be found on amazon or ebay
1 on/off switch
1 blue "on" led light
1 green light to indicate NO side of the low pressure switch is now NC due to hitting 30psi
1 alarm buzzer to indicate NO on high pressure switch since pressure is too high and to shut down
1 push button momentary to manually turn on well pump on initial startup


Enclosure: $20
ebay is best. try and make it waterproof

Temperature Controller: $16
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0152LYY0I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wire:

25' 12-4 power cord for wall plus ends: $66


14/3 gauge SO wire for pump and procon to box: $50
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IO6TOE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


15' enclosed 1/4" dia or less 3wire for 2 switches: $10
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010IBYA7E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
(might want to get 4 wire enclosed but i just used 3-wire and didnt use the ground). needs to be around .25"-.30" OD max to fit into the pressure switches above)

Hoses and connections: ~$450 for all


High Pressure hose and fittings:
1/2" hose
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=121431&catid=993

Kynar fittings:
be careful, basic nylon fittings are mixed in with them in the list. the kynars are towards the bottom of each page.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.aspx?catid=551&clickid=popcorn[/QUOTE



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[Ccbrit]

Thanks for the kind words everyone. I'm glad its going to help people out. I have had multiple private messages already from people wanting my parts list.
Good news is, I record/document everything (engineery brain), so below is my parts list with rough pricing and links. i also have reference links below some items.
The parts are essentially in an order based on the flow of the schematic, aside from the dolly build on top.


Enjoy!



Shopping list:


Dolly frame: $35
http://www.harborfreight.com/700-lb-capacity-bigfoot-hand-truck-62900.html

Extra steel: $60
72" 1.5 x 3/16" thick flat stock
10' 1"x1"x1/8 square tube
12ga aluminum plate (needed to polish myself, but the welding shop had the aluminum and used a hydraulic shear to cut it perfectly for me)


Parts in order of flow:


Shallow well 1hp pump: $140
maybe look elsewhere as this is cast iron.. it may rust if its not filled with glycol in the off season. only time will tell...

10A at 120V / 5A*at 240v
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deep-Well-or-Shallow-Well-Water-Jet-Pump-Various-HP-Ratings-Available-/271531242390?var=&hash=item3f3885f396:m:m9BWeGv1pgTuk4pvnMsJGgg

https://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/floforce-convertible-jet-pump-manual.pdf


Whole house filter 4.5x10. Pentair Big Blue : $30 - 15gpm
ebay auction

Filters: $53 for 12 (4.42 ea)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191808915068
maybe pick up pleated 5 micron filters so you can wash out the debris and reuse?

Filter bracket: $9
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004O3OP2S/ref=pd_bxgy_328_2?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004O3OP2S&pd_rd_r=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328&pd_rd_w=ucy9i&pd_rd_wg=a5KVr&psc=1&refRID=XXXDA0ZVJKAP96W6E328

Filter Wrench: $4
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0030NE2FS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


2 Pressure gauges for before and after sediment filter 100psi: $40
Remember, these work fine for now, but i think if they were liquid filled gauges they might last longer since the needle vibrates a bit with these. I couldnt find any flush mount liquid filled that mounted to thin metal
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0087UEJV6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
http://winters.com/wp-content/uploads/PEU.pdf

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Winters-Instruments-PEU-Series-2-5-in-Black-Steel-Case-Panel-Mounted-Pressure-Gauge-with-1-4-in-NPT-CBM-and-Range-of-0-100-psi-kPa-PEU1439UC/205962482


Low Pressure Switch set to turn on when greater than 30psi = $65
Black (Com) 1 Green (NC) 2 Red (NO) 3
Currently set at 30 PSI, which is ~6 full turns out from fully seated for reference

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPYA4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
references:
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209166
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


2hp motor: $200
5/8" shaft, 3/16" key
Full Load Amps: 17.8/8.9
http://www.ptjindustrial.com/Sierra_Electric_Motor_S2_18_56C_p/s2-18-56c.htm
or ebay. but direct was cheaper.


Procon high pressure brass 330GPH pump :
330gph bolt on / flat shaft: $145 shipped
1/2" ports
Call and request 114E330F11XX since it is food grade (1 *1* 4)
http://edco-distributing.myshopify.com/products/series4proconpump
Specs: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_spec.pdf
Drawing: https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series 4 Pump_drawing.pdf


Mounting Bracket for series 4: $40
https://www.amazon.com/1048-1C-Procon-Mounting-Bracket-models/dp/B007BG9A3Y

Coupler for Procon 330GPH: $15
7/16" shaft, no keyway
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-Standard-Coupling-Sintered-Keyway/dp/B004QWZXF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477966443&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+10768


Coupler for motor side 5/8" / 3/16"
L090 401 in lbs $7
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HIWP0A/ref=ox_huc_add_on_msg_title_1?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER



SOX spider:
SOX 194 in lbs $5
https://www.amazon.com/Lovejoy-090-095-Coupling-Elastomer-Nominal/dp/B003HIWQN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477782293&sr=8-1&keywords=lovejoy+11070


High pressure switch. set at 250psi: $65

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NAPZ62/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en/209505
http://www.gemssensors.com/~/media/GemsNA/InstructionBulletins/ps11-ps97.ashx
http://ecatalog.gemssensors.com/ecatalog/pressure-switches/en


Stainless Steel Housing 4" x 40" 1/2" Feed: $105
ebay auction


4x40" membrane: $225
Filmtec XLE-4040 (14gpm max feed flow rate, 2600gpd)
ebay auction

research:
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_089a/0901b8038089a29f.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00349.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Fouling prevention
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0035/0901b803800358c5.pdf?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-00308.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

How to insert membrane
http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=liquidseps/pdfs/noreg/609-02069.pdf


High Pressure Gauge : $18
https://www.amazon.com/Winters-Economical-Pressure-Internals-Accuracy/dp/B0087UD76Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1478220784&sr=8-3&keywords=winters+0-300+psi


2 SS needle valves: $140 for 2
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4865-panel-mount-needle-valve-12-fnpt-316-ss.aspx



Flowmeter for permeate and concentrate :$65

CONCENTRATE - .1-1
PERMEATE - .2-2
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1001-M-p/lzt-1001-m.htm
https://www.foreverpureplace.com/LZT-1002-M-p/lzt-1002-m.htm

reference: http://www.greatlakesintl.com/assets/FM_flow-meters_gauges.pdf


Electrical Panel Gear:
13.9a total on 240v
28 on total on 120v

4 240v 30a coil relays: $40
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001KGSJ74/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

all led's and switches are 22mm and can be found on amazon or ebay
1 on/off switch
1 blue "on" led light
1 green light to indicate NO side of the low pressure switch is now NC due to hitting 30psi
1 alarm buzzer to indicate NO on high pressure switch since pressure is too high and to shut down
1 push button momentary to manually turn on well pump on initial startup


Enclosure: $20
ebay is best. try and make it waterproof

Temperature Controller: $16
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0152LYY0I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wire:

25' 12-4 power cord for wall plus ends: $66


14/3 gauge SO wire for pump and procon to box: $50
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IO6TOE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


15' enclosed 1/4" dia or less 3wire for 2 switches: $10
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010IBYA7E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
(might want to get 4 wire enclosed but i just used 3-wire and didnt use the ground). needs to be around .25"-.30" OD max to fit into the pressure switches above)

Hoses and connections: ~$450 for all


High Pressure hose and fittings:
1/2" hose
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=121431&catid=993

Kynar fittings:
be careful, basic nylon fittings are mixed in with them in the list. the kynars are towards the bottom of each page.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.aspx?catid=551&clickid=popcorn

What parts were used for the low and high pressure switches?
The flow meters if I understand it correctly are for 1 and 2 bpm. Seems low to me, am I missing something?


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[Ccbrit]

What parts were used for the low and high pressure switches?
The flow meters if I understand it correctly are for 1 and 2 bpm. Seems low to me, am I missing something?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Gpm


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[Arctic Fox]

I've found 5 micron filters on eBay in a box of 24 for around 36 dollars. Jeff

I'm interested in what prefilters you're using, because what I'm finding seems to be a lot more than $36 for 24 filters.

[jmayerl]

So I am an electrical idiot... how does one properly wire these motors for 220 and what kind of switch to use. I assume a relay is always needed?

[WoodButcher]

PM sent.
Thanks.

[bryankloos]

Jeremy,

What’s the max sugar concentration you can get with this RO?
I’m looking to step up from my 4x150 and seems your build may fit the needs.

Thanks

Bryan

[WoodButcher]

Hi there. It really depends on how hard you want to push it. If you want to run it on the fly while boiling it'll keep up with a 2x6 if your around 30gph. It'll make 1/2 gallon per minute of concentrate at around 6 brix easy. However I would always start the RO in the morning prior to boiling, maybe let it run for a few hours, and then start boiling. That allowed me to run it at about 1/4 gallon per minute concentrate and get around 7 or 8 brix. This is all around 250-275 PSI

[bryankloos]

I’m using a 2x4 which boils at ~12gph.
My sap is 1.5% and I’d like to get up to 8+ to keep up with the evaporator.
Even higher if it’s permissible.
When would your rig start fouling?
Seems this should be easy with your rig, no?

[WoodButcher]

That's a bit high for my blood. Heck I was even happy if my homemade rig removed half the water... Once I started getting into the 2/3 - 3/4 removal it was definitely nice but but not necessary and harder on the membrane. I was a bit hesitant building an RO for years since I always worried about messing with nature and the actual need to physically boil to get that maple flavor out. But once they came out with that 20 or 30 page study on the high efficiency XLE 4040 membrane I gave it a whirl.

As stated you can do 7 or more bricks at 0.25 GPH which comes out to 15 gallons an hour on the fly. So you would be covered at at least 7 brix which I don't feel you don't need any more than that unless your commercial... I had no issues with following, and flushed with 150+ gallons of permeate every time. And every other boil I would do a fixed temp circulation bath of sodium hydroxide.

[bryankloos]

7 at 0.25gph is perfect, thanks!
I'll start diving in deeper with research/planning and PM you if I get hung up.
Thanks for sharing your build and experience.

[Springfield Acer]

Hi there. It really depends on how hard you want to push it. If you want to run it on the fly while boiling it'll keep up with a 2x6 if your around 30gph. It'll make 1/2 gallon per minute of concentrate at around 6 brix easy. However I would always start the RO in the morning prior to boiling, maybe let it run for a few hours, and then start boiling. That allowed me to run it at about 1/4 gallon per minute concentrate and get around 7 or 8 brix. This is all around 250-275 PSI

I have been reading this post with interest. Is there another by 'Dave' that I should read?

[WoodButcher]

Dave goes by the name bowhunter on the trader. He's helped me out a bunch when I first started building. You can search threads by his name

[DocsMapleSyrup]

It looks like it's been 8 months since anyone has posted on this thread so I hope Jeremy takes a look. First, the RO build was done very well. Second, I'm wondering where you got the RO vessel mounting hardware? That seems to be difficult for me to find and I didn't see it in your build list. BTW, you did an excellent job with that list as well.

[WoodButcher]

If you're talking about the stainless straps that hold the vertical vessel in place, I'm pretty sure they came with the actual vessel I bought from eBay.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

You are right. I had not opened the package with the vessel in it but found the mounting hardware inside the vessel. Thanks. Also, The ends of my vessels have 3/4" inlets and 1/2" central outlets. Does it matter if I run 1/2" hose from the high pressure side of the pump and expand to 3/4" at the inlet. What I'm wondering is if there is any benefit of running 3/4" high pressure hose from the procon to the vessel since the pump output is only 1/2"? I don't think there should be but don't want to overlook anything as I have only seen an RO up close once. It wouldn't affect the rate of flow across the membrane would it?

[WoodButcher]

You are right. I had not opened the package with the vessel in it but found the mounting hardware inside the vessel. Thanks. Also, The ends of my vessels have 3/4" inlets and 1/2" central outlets. Does it matter if I run 1/2" hose from the high pressure side of the pump and expand to 3/4" at the inlet. What I'm wondering is if there is any benefit of running 3/4" high pressure hose from the procon to the vessel since the pump output is only 1/2"? I don't think there should be but don't want to overlook anything as I have only seen an RO up close once. It wouldn't affect the rate of flow across the membrane would it?

so the rule of thumb for ALL pumps is NEVER reduce the inlet size, always expand or reduce the outlet side. you mess things up when you choke flow to any pump.
so if your procon is 1/2" output (been awhile since i went over my notes), then 1/2" high pressure hose will suffice. then just get an adapter to adapt to the bottom of the vessel inlet. flow rate across a membrane if based on pressure and resistance (how dirty the membrane is).

you should be good!

[DocsMapleSyrup]

Awesome. Thanks.

[Plungerke]

Can anyone tell me why we are getting sugar in our permeate after switching from (5) 1.5x10 150gpd to (1) 4040 membrane?

This is the membrane we have
Max Water Commercial Extreme Low Pressure RO Membrane Element-XLP-4040 :2300GPD size 4" x 40" Good for Industrial, Agricultural, Whole House, Maple Sap, Pure Water Preparation, Boiler & More https://a.co/d/1mq8AB3

[BnSmaple]

I would guess that you broke a o ring on end cap…..the internal one….always lube them good before assembly

[hodorskib]

I built a new one this year as well 4" x 40" all plumbed with 1/2" tubing and I had the same problem with sugar passing. I found that I tightened the fittings in the end cap too much and cracked the cap. I replaced it and the O rings and everything working fine.