tapping below lateral line

[Ryan Mahar]

IN the latest Maple Digest, it was indicated that tapping below the lateral line was nearly or as effective as taping above. My question is in the article, at the end in the conclusion, it suggests with the drop below the lateral, the spout still should be pointing DOWN....is this correct and if so I just did not see that this technique was part of the study. Did I miss something here? Having the spout pointning up would be a lot more convenient...thanks for any comments.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

We did it last year on older trees with straight disposable spouts and it seemed fine

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

We've done it as well on drops that are too short which we haven't replaced yet with good results. It's a lot better than tapping too close to an old hole. And we always kept the tap pointed up in that case so as not to make a loop and a place for sap to freeze. I'm not sure why they would suggest that, maybe someone else knows??

[GeneralStark]

From the Maple Digest: "Further, we recommend that the tubing connection of spouts tapped below the lateral line be oriented facing downward. This would help to provide a small air gap in the spout and tubing and reduce backflow and reintroduction of microbes into the taphole at times."

[Ryan Mahar]

yah, read that, but with check valves that should not happen and still not quite understanding the logic or absolute necessity, needs to be tests I think..........but thanks all for the conversation...........

[madmapler]

yah, read that, but with check valves that should not happen and still not quite understanding the logic or absolute necessity, needs to be tests I think..........but thanks all for the conversation...........

I would agree there isn't an absolute necessity but I think logic would say that any drop out of the taphole is going to be better than letting the sap gravity feed back into the tree, CV'S or not.

[mellondome]

But if you are already below the lateral, pointing up or down you will still be below the lateral..

Only advantage is if you loop the drop line way above the lateral before dropping back down to the tap, and had a way to allow air back in to prevent backflow. Otherwise a syphon at 6in below the level is still the same even if in the middle it goes up 12in or it goes down 12in.

The tree still produces vacuum at night regardless of an air bubble in the line. With checkvalves that air bubble would be counter productive as they need fluid to seal off. Thus you would be drawing bacteria laden moist air back into the tree.

[spud]

I tap below the lateral lines on many of my smaller trees. I have over 1000 trees tapped this way. My production is still 25+ GPT. I use all CV2 spouts and they point down. The last thing you want is to have sap flow back into your tap hole. It only takes a few drops after each freeze/thaw cycle to infect a tap hole. My drops do have a loop in them when I tap below the lateral line. It seems to work just fine and now allows me to hit nice white wood every year even on a smaller tree. If you were not organic you could tap 5 inch trees with 36 inch drops and be fine. The key would be to back off on the tapping depth on the smaller trees.

Spud

[Shiftman]

For every foot you tap below the lateral there would be about 1" of vacuum that you would lose. Conventions say that represents about 5% yield decrease. That's why its nearly as effective.

[DrTimPerkins]

With checkvalves that air bubble would be counter productive as they need fluid to seal off. Thus you would be drawing bacteria laden moist air back into the tree.

Sorry I was not able to reply to this thread earlier. A quadruple bypass (not recommended) had me side-lined for the past 3 weeks. On the mend though and feeling MUCH better.

Not correct. As long as the seating ring is wet, it matters not whether there is air or liquid in the spout. The CV will seal with air as well as it will with liquid. The ball, because it is very light and less dense than water, moves in response to slight pressure differences or floatation.

If using a CV spout, orientation is less important when tapping below the lateral. If using a normal (non-CV) spout, we recommend tapping in the normal orientation to create a small air-gap and help lessen (but not eliminate) backflow of sap.

[tcross]

take it easy dr Tim! hope you're back to 100% real soon!

[Bucket Head]

Sorry to hear of the surgery but glad to hear your doing better. I second the above advice of "take it easy".
My father had triple bypass surgery back in Sept. and he doesn't recommend it either.
Hopefully you will be back to, or at least close to full capacity for sap season!
Steve

[spud]

Dr. Tim I hope you feel better real soon.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

Welcome back Dr. Tim and glad to hear you are on the mend. My dad had a quadruple bypass a few years ago and he recovered very quickly and it dramatically improved his quality of life. Modern medicine is amazing! You will be back in the woods in no time!

[BreezyHill]

Remember Tim some days we are the bat and others the ball. Take one day at a time and in time you will get there.

Seems we are having a rough year in 2016. Does make you look at things in a different vantage point.

Speedy recovery to you and Merry Christmas!

Ben

[DrTimPerkins]

Thanks all. The best way I've found to describe the experience is that it is like being hit by a truck, but the truck gets a bit smaller every day.

Merry Christmas all and best wishes for a terrific 2017 season.

[doocat]

Dr. Tim we are praying for your recovery. I have been reading here for years and it is hard to comprehend we are all getting older. My perception of you and all sugar makers is that of tough hardy hard working individuals. I have to step back and realize sometimes that we all break down and from my own situation i realize that help in the woods and in the sugar house is becoming a necessity rather than a luxury.

Take it easy and enjoy life, Craig

[Daveg]

Hey Dr. Perkins!
I'm glad you're feeling better day by day! Just remember: "A little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down!"