Auto Draw Off Project

[DavyJones]

Hi all.... I've been reading some previous posts on this subject and think I am going to give this a try this year. I'm going to have my pan modified and have dividers put in so I have a continuous flow pan and now all that I think is left is to put together the auto draw. I've been looking at this kit (kit here) (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=55&products_id=581) and this valve on amazon (valve here) (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WDVOW7Q/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=HXQU4PI5ANX2&coliid=I2JIEW7U1IEQQL&psc=1) Not sure on that valve though seems like the temperature would be fine and it sounds like this is the capacitance closed type which seems like the folks in this forum are 50/50 on this capacitance type verses a power close type. Not to worried about the price of the valve and I think I won't butcher that box on the kit to bad cutting those extra square holes so if anyone has any thoughts and can post a link to an alternate site and better valve that will work with that kit I would appreciate it.

Update: I found another valve (here) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Motorized-Ball-Valve-Stainless-Steel-EPDM-110-115-120-220-240-VAC-N-C-/121928127555?hash=item1c637b9443:g:O-IAAOSwZG9Wl9Or)on Ebay that is more descriptive than the one on Amazon as far as the operating temperature goes it is a little more expensive but I like this one better because of the description.
Thanks
David

[stoweski]

I went with a similar valve to the one you posted in your update (ebay valve). Temp was never an issue with it. Mine is a 1" valve because I wanted to best fit my current drawoff port size without having to reduce too many times.

It works great, except if you leave it for a few days without using it, then some of the syrup may dry and the next time you use it it will stick open slightly (very slow drip). I simply flushed it with hot water and it worked fine. So a more frequent flushing will occur in my shack this season!

I did use similar components to what Aubers offers in their kit. The kit wasn't available when I built my drawoff. Its nice to see they have one now. Square holes are fairly easy. I marked them out then drilled a few holes in it. I hooked up a jigsaw (bench mount, not handheld) and cut the squares. I trimmed any edges with a utility knife. Nice part, most of the components have a lip on them to hide any minor mistakes.

Good luck!

[DavyJones]

I ordered and received the kit from Auberins. It arrived nicely packed with all the parts needed to build the control box. It was pretty easy to mount the components and only required a 7/8 hole saw and step drill that did 1/2" and 3/4". the front was knocked out for the controller. The only square holes I had to do were the ones for the power in and power out for the valve. They were pretty easy to do once I outlined them I drilled them out best I could close to the lines then cleaned it up square with a dremel. I opted for the 1/2" 120v valve from ebay and that arrived too. I jammed the wires into a plug just to see it work and worked fine.

1470414705

I'll make more posts as I continue with the project. I do think the 14" sensor that came with the kit is going to be way to long for my project so I am considering purchasing the one that is closer to 2" or 4" I think they have. The next thing I need to do is to take my boiling pan over to the machine shop and have them weld in the dividers.

[DavyJones]

Thanks Stowe! I did not see your post before I purchased the items..... Can you tell me the length of the probe you are using? I am thinking having a small hole drilled close to the exit port and a shorter probe going in just a couple inches.

David

[Urban Sugarmaker]

This looks nice. Should serve you well. I use the Auber controllers as well. Just be sure to calibrate your RTD probe. I have a similar valve but mine is power-close rather than capacitance-close. With either style it should be fine. But, I usually have to tap on my valve to get it to close when the evaporator is cold and I am testing the valve. Once it's warm it has never let me down.

[DavyJones]

Urban, Thanks.... Can you tell me approximately where you have your probe threaded into your pan at? I am thinking it should be as close as possible to the port coming out of my pan currently and what maybe 1/2" off the bottom of the pan... How far into the pan should it go again I am thinking just a couple of inches
thanks
David

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Urban, Thanks.... Can you tell me approximately where you have your probe threaded into your pan at? I am thinking it should be as close as possible to the port coming out of my pan currently and what maybe 1/2" off the bottom of the pan... How far into the pan should it go again I am thinking just a couple of inches
thanks
David

I just used the port that the pan manufacturer originally used for a temperature port. He placed the port where he found that the hottest part of the pan is in the syrup channel. It is actually several inches before the draw off box. If you can move yours around you may want to experiment. You will likely have better luck experimenting with sap because it boils much differently than water, especially as it gets close to syrup.

Also, only the last half inch or so of the probe senses temperature. Just make sure it is not actually touching the pan.

[DavyJones]

Yeah I'm not really going to have the opportunity to move the probe around and try to find a "hot spot" close to the drain plug. I'm taking my pan over to the fabrication place and having them weld in the dividers and I was going to have them drill the hole for the probe at the same time. Here (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=481) is the probe that came with the kit from aubirens and it came with a compression fitting that allows me to put it right through the pan. This is really long 14" and way to long so I was thinking of getting one that was shorter. How long is the probe you have and how far into your pan is it mounted.
Thanks
David

[DavyJones]

I just used the port that the pan manufacturer originally used for a temperature port. He placed the port where he found that the hottest part of the pan is in the syrup channel. It is actually several inches before the draw off box. If you can move yours around you may want to experiment. You will likely have better luck experimenting with sap because it boils much differently than water, especially as it gets close to syrup.

Also, only the last half inch or so of the probe senses temperature. Just make sure it is not actually touching the pan.

I was thinking another thing I could do is come off the pipe from my pan with a "T" and then use a compression fitting on one side of the "T" and slide the probe through the "T" into the pan then come off the other end of the "T" into my manual valve then my electronic valve. That would put my probe smack in the middle of my sap exit.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I was thinking another thing I could do is come off the pipe from my pan with a "T" and then use a compression fitting on one side of the "T" and slide the probe through the "T" into the pan then come off the other end of the "T" into my manual valve then my electronic valve. That would put my probe smack in the middle of my sap exit.

I would not do that. I think you need to find a bracket to use with your probe so you can move it where it will be most accurate. You may be very disappointed if you permanently install it somewhere that it shouldn't be. You may want to call Marcland or Smoky Lake to ask about a bracket and get some advice on probe placement. I know both will talk to you even though you are doing a home-build.

[DavyJones]

I would not do that. I think you need to find a bracket to use with your probe so you can move it where it will be most accurate. You may be very disappointed if you permanently install it somewhere that it shouldn't be. You may want to call Marcland or Smoky Lake to ask about a bracket and get some advice on probe placement. I know both will talk to you even though you are doing a home-build.

I am not sure if I follow the logic of placing the probe at the hottest part of the pan in the last channel of my continuous flow pan. I would think that getting the temperature as close as possible to the drain would insure the syrup about to flow out of the drain is the proper temperature that I set. Placing the probe possibly a foot away from the drain could potentially open the valve and draw syrup before it's time.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

That's fine. Just experiment. I just know that when Bill Mason designed his pans (the one I'm using), he put the temp probe port in a certain spot for a reason. I have found I get the correct density when I draw off at the proper temperature measured at that location. I think the idea is to put the probe in a location that gives you syrup at around 219F. All of this assumes your gradient is steady too. For me, boiling with concentrate has occasionally resulted in syrup well before the temp probe. This leads to over-dense drawoffs until the gradient is stable again.

Alternatively, you can do what you suggested and just experiment to set your draw off to whatever temperature gives you syrup at the proper density at the draw off port. It may be above or below 219. It really doesn't matter what the temperature indication if the valve opens at the correct density you want. It takes some adjustment with each boil because the weather changes, but either way you should be able to get consistent draws.

I would also recommend incorporating a throttle valve so you can limit how much syrup comes out. You probably don't want it wide open. This can screw up your gradient and potentially cause a scorch if the level goes too low. Almost happened to me. Everyone I've seen on here with smaller rigs seem to like to have a draw off stream no larger than a pencil in diameter. I agree because you will get longer and more consistent draws.

Let us know how it works for you. I think you will be fine.

[DavyJones]

That's fine. Just experiment. I just know that when Bill Mason designed his pans (the one I'm using), he put the temp probe port in a certain spot for a reason. I have found I get the correct density when I draw off at the proper temperature measured at that location. I think the idea is to put the probe in a location that gives you syrup at around 219F. All of this assumes your gradient is steady too. For me, boiling with concentrate has occasionally resulted in syrup well before the temp probe. This leads to over-dense drawoffs until the gradient is stable again.

Alternatively, you can do what you suggested and just experiment to set your draw off to whatever temperature gives you syrup at the proper density at the draw off port. It may be above or below 219. It really doesn't matter what the temperature indication if the valve opens at the correct density you want. It takes some adjustment with each boil because the weather changes, but either way you should be able to get consistent draws.

I would also recommend incorporating a throttle valve so you can limit how much syrup comes out. You probably don't want it wide open. This can screw up your gradient and potentially cause a scorch if the level goes too low. Almost happened to me. Everyone I've seen on here with smaller rigs seem to like to have a draw off stream no larger than a pencil in diameter. I agree because you will get longer and more consistent draws.

Let us know how it works for you. I think you will be fine.

Yeah I have been boiling sap for years and have a manual valve I intended to use to limit the draw. Can you take a picture of your pan so I can get an idea how close your port is to your valve. I want to have the fabricating place drill a hole for me while they are welding in the dividers and going to make a bracket up too. I can always plug the hole if that does not give an optimum reading for the draw. I plan on having a bracket available too. If could get a picture where your probe mount is in your pan that will at least give me a starting point.
Thanks
David

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Here are the photos:
1473914740

[DavyJones]

Beautiful thank you so much!
David

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Urban Sugarmaker's advice is spot on. We had to play with ours and found that placing the probe almost 16" from the end of the pan/drawoff was the best combo for accuracy/amount per dump. You'll constantly be adjusting slightly throughout the boil due to atmosphere changes and the sap coming in. The point of the drawoff is to make adjusting easy and picking the right spot on your pan is one way to help "manually" control the dump.

[Bricklayer]

I'm finally putting my auber auto draw off kit together. One thing I did notice in the design of this kit is that it's based on if user is using a power open capacitor close or spring close valve. I did purchase a power on cap close valve to use with it, but was thinking of wiring a plug in the side to accept a 3 wire power open/power close valve in case I needed to upgrade.
How are the 3 wired valves wired. Do I need an external relay or is it internal in the valve? I can't seem to find a wiring diagram. I'm sure if I do upgrade to a better valve I would go with smoky lakes valve they sell. Are all power open power close 3 wire valves basically the same. 1 neutral wire and 2 hot wires, 1 hot for each direction?