Newbie looking for advice

[Benny8]

Hello from NH. My wife and I just purchased a pc of property that we will be building a hunting camp on. While walking the property, we noticed we had quite a few Sugar Maples. We had been wanting to make our own syrup for a couple years from the few trees that are on our primary residence. We are looking to start out small. I am thinking of building a 10x12 shack with a 55 gal barrel arch. A buddy of mine is going to fabricate me a 18"x30" flat pan. After reading a lot of the builds on here, I think I will line it with fire brick and I have some ceramic fiber board left from my woodfired pizza oven build. Does this sound like it will work? How many taps do you suggest? I will only be able to boil on weekends. I have a down hill run to where we are thinking of putting the shack and arch. My thought was a gravity feed to a holding tank which will be higher than the shack. Can I run a pipe from the tank into the shack and then coil some copper tubing around the vent to preheat? Also thinking of running a computer fan to blow air in under the fire. What kind of evaporation rate can I expect with this setup? I appreciate any and all advice. Very excited about the new property and the upcoming sugaring season. Thank you.

[madmapler]

I would figure out the full potential for taps you have on the property even if you don't think you'll be using them all at this point. If you're only boiling on weekends then you could find yourself swamped with that small an evaporator. It'll help us to give you some accurate advice.

[Benny8]

Being a newb, maybe I didn't word it correctly. How many taps do you think my 18"x30" pan will handle by boiling on weekends(fri 12pm-?, Sat all day, Sunday until 4pm)?

[mudr]

18X30= 1.5X2.5 = about 4 sq ft. 4 sq ft is about 4 gallons of boil-off per hour, maybe a little more or little less depending on everything else (incoming sap temp, wind, firewood quality, etc). Your mileage may vary.

Working backwards from normal, lets figure out how many hours you have. 4 on friday, 8 hours on saturday, 6 hrs on sunday, lets say you boil 18 hours total on the weekend. If you boil 18 hours at 4 gph, you can boil off 72 gallons that weekend. Lets say you get 1.5 gallons per tap collected during the week, 72 gallons/1.5 gpt = 48 taps total. Now, that is for a +/- average week, you might get 3 gallons per tap on a banner run, or you may get next to nothing.

Now the question is holding sap. It can be done, easier in the cooler part of the season, but it may be harder in the later season. I'd shoot for 100 gallons of sap holding space, keep it on the north side of a building in the shade, and be ready to freeze sap to add back into the tank to keep it cool. You may loose some sugar due to the microbes and the syrup might be a bit darker, but it is doable. I've done it.

[Benny8]

18X30= 1.5X2.5 = about 4 sq ft. 4 sq ft is about 4 gallons of boil-off per hour, maybe a little more or little less depending on everything else (incoming sap temp, wind, firewood quality, etc). Your mileage may vary.

Working backwards from normal, lets figure out how many hours you have. 4 on friday, 8 hours on saturday, 6 hrs on sunday, lets say you boil 18 hours total on the weekend. If you boil 18 hours at 4 gph, you can boil off 72 gallons that weekend. Lets say you get 1.5 gallons per tap collected during the week, 72 gallons/1.5 gpt = 48 taps total. Now, that is for a +/- average week, you might get 3 gallons per tap on a banner run, or you may get next to nothing.

Now the question is holding sap. It can be done, easier in the cooler part of the season, but it may be harder in the later season. I'd shoot for 100 gallons of sap holding space, keep it on the north side of a building in the shade, and be ready to freeze sap to add back into the tank to keep it cool. You may loose some sugar due to the microbes and the syrup might be a bit darker, but it is doable. I've done it.
Thank you. That was what I was looking for. I may not have asked it correctly the first time. The Shacks low side will be on the south side, and the holding tank will be on the North side. I plan to insulate it well. As far as freezing sap, could I freeze plastic milk jugs with salt water and toss those in the tank? I really appreciate the breakdown MUDR.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Thank you. That was what I was looking for. I may not have asked it correctly the first time. The Shacks low side will be on the south side, and the holding tank will be on the North side. I plan to insulate it well. As far as freezing sap, could I freeze plastic milk jugs with salt water and toss those in the tank? I really appreciate the breakdown MUDR.

You could freeze the milk jugs but I would just use water. If water leaked into your sap it would mean more boiling. If salt water leaked into your sap it would mean spoiled sap. The few degrees difference in freezing temperature is not worth it IMHO.

[Benny8]

You could freeze the milk jugs but I would just use water. If water leaked into your sap it would mean more boiling. If salt water leaked into your sap it would mean spoiled sap. The few degrees difference in freezing temperature is not worth it IMHO.
Good information. Hence freezing sap. Thank you.

[Super Sapper]

You can also freeze sap in pails and just add that to help keep it cool.

[SeanD]

Benny8, you are way ahead of the game and you have a very thoughtful plan. For a lot of us when we got started, we were asking these questions in December and January.

I'll just add that not only is it easier to freeze the sap in pails, but then to just let the block of frozen sap slide right out of the bucket like an ice cube. There's nothing gained by putting the whole bucket in. You'll just have to fish it out later. As soon as you drop one cube in, use the bucket to scoop out another few gallons to freeze. Better yet, throw a few blocks in at a time.

Another thing you can do is use your snowblower to bury your tanks in snow. Do it with every snowfall and it will build up - assuming we have a normal snowfall. I got mine to where I could stand on the snow at the height of the top of a 55 gallon drum. If you do that, you may not need the ice blocks until the last week of the season.

Mudr's process of calculating taps is good, but personally I'd revise the weekly sap totals upward and your tap count downward. 1.5 gpt over 7 days is a bit low for me. Remember, the sap runs even when you are boiling. The trouble with averages is in one week, you might have 30 gallons and the next week you have 150. When you do the math at the end of the season, it will look like that 2-week period gave you 90 gal/wk, but in reality you were drinking beers and chatting during boils one week and the next you were boiling for three days straight and cursing your existence. Daily boilers have an easier time getting ahead or caught up on big runs, but weekenders have it harder.

As a friend of mine has said, there are far worse things than dumping sap on the ground. If you can live with kicking the barrels over when you have reached your limit, then plan high. If that kind of thing stresses you out, then plan lower.

The big thing to really get on right now is getting your wood split and as dry as possible. I have found that the quality of the firewood is the number one factor affecting the quality of the boil. That will be the difference between 4 gph and 5 or even 6.

Welcome and good luck.

Sean

[mudr]

Mudr's process of calculating taps is good, but personally I'd revise the weekly sap totals upward and your tap count downward. 1.5 gpt over 7 days is a bit low for me. Remember, the sap runs even when you are boiling. The trouble with averages is in one week, you might have 30 gallons and the next week you have 150.
Sean

He brings up a good point on GPT per week. It could be higher than I said (which would end up reducing your *ideal*). The number is 1 gallon per tap per decent run, I figured on average, one and a half decent runs per week. But as he pointed out, average is just that, average. Heavy days/weeks will be tough.

I will say this- tap more than you think you need. It'll keep you busy in the slow season. You can always sell (or....dump....) sap you can't get to. It hurts, but it will keep you busier in the slow times.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

I think you will see soon that a little computer fan isn't enough. But any added air under the fire, coals will make a big difference. the more air the quicker you can boil pans over,,, it's finding the happy medium for your arch.

Welcome to the addiction and good luck

[Benny8]

Benny8, you are way ahead of the game and you have a very thoughtful plan. For a lot of us when we got started, we were asking these questions in December and January.

I'll just add that not only is it easier to freeze the sap in pails, but then to just let the block of frozen sap slide right out of the bucket like an ice cube. There's nothing gained by putting the whole bucket in. You'll just have to fish it out later. As soon as you drop one cube in, use the bucket to scoop out another few gallons to freeze. Better yet, throw a few blocks in at a time.

Another thing you can do is use your snowblower to bury your tanks in snow. Do it with every snowfall and it will build up - assuming we have a normal snowfall. I got mine to where I could stand on the snow at the height of the top of a 55 gallon drum. If you do that, you may not need the ice blocks until the last week of the season.

Mudr's process of calculating taps is good, but personally I'd revise the weekly sap totals upward and your tap count downward. 1.5 gpt over 7 days is a bit low for me. Remember, the sap runs even when you are boiling. The trouble with averages is in one week, you might have 30 gallons and the next week you have 150. When you do the math at the end of the season, it will look like that 2-week period gave you 90 gal/wk, but in reality you were drinking beers and chatting during boils one week and the next you were boiling for three days straight and cursing your existence. Daily boilers have an easier time getting ahead or caught up on big runs, but weekenders have it harder.

As a friend of mine has said, there are far worse things than dumping sap on the ground. If you can live with kicking the barrels over when you have reached your limit, then plan high. If that kind of thing stresses you out, then plan lower.

The big thing to really get on right now is getting your wood split and as dry as possible. I have found that the quality of the firewood is the number one factor affecting the quality of the boil. That will be the difference between 4 gph and 5 or even 6.

Welcome and good luck.

Sean
Thanks Sean for the helpful information. 3pm this afternoon we will own our Sugaring/hunting/camp property. Very exciting and looking forward to the upcoming season.


I think you will see soon that a little computer fan isn't enough. But any added air under the fire, coals will make a big difference. the more air the quicker you can boil pans over,,, it's finding the happy medium for your arch.

Welcome to the addiction and good luck
Sugarbush, what do you think would be a better alternative? Being only a weekender, I would like to be as efficient as possible(within my proposed setup).

[madmapler]

Being a newb, maybe I didn't word it correctly. How many taps do you think my 18"x30" pan will handle by boiling on weekends(fri 12pm-?, Sat all day, Sunday until 4pm)?

I think you worded things right. My response was prompted because so often when starting out we think small but soon realize we want to produce to the full potential of our sugar bush. I personally am on my third evaporator and third RO in 4 years of making syrup! It's been a lot of extra work.You probably won't go as crazy as I did but almost anyone on here can tell a similar story. You soon realize it'll be even more fun to make more syrup in less time. It's almost inevitable. The evaporator you have in mind is almost identical to what my Grandfather used and I remember him boiling almost every day after work and on weekends and the had around 30 or so buckets. I'm not saying he didn't love it and I'm sure you will too. Just keep it in mind. Sugaring could well be the ultimate test of ones self control. I failed miserably.:)

[Suckmytap]

As a fellow weekend boiler, I can sympathize with the time crunch. A major frustration we face are the slower runs early in the season and then being wip-sawed in the later season when the sap is really running. I like (if able) to have as many taps out as to get a nice weekend full of boiling in the early season when you may only get <1 gpt. Yes you will be swamped with too much sap later on, but like others have commented, there are many worse things than dumping sap. So, if you can expect to boil ~72 gallons per weekend, I would have at least 75 taps.

Another rule of thumb to make the minimum taps needed estimate is based on the average syrup quantity per tree of .25 gpt (buckets/non-vacuum systems). You can boil 72 gallons of sap per weekend, let's say its an average season up north and you get 6 weekends to boil, so you will have boiled ~432 gallons of sap in the season and make ~11 gallons of syrup (40:1). At an average of .25 gpt of syrup, you would need about 44 taps to make that goal. But again, that's if you boil every drop of sap in the heavy runs which may not be realistic. Add in an extra 30 taps for good measure and even in the early season, you should have plenty to boil. You can also save some $$ by doing 2-3 drop lines into one 5 gallon bucket on the big trees instead of one tap/one bucket. They will overflow in the big runs but work fine otherwise. good luck.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Thanks Sean for the helpful information. 3pm this afternoon we will own our Sugaring/hunting/camp property. Very exciting and looking forward to the upcoming season.


Sugarbush, what do you think would be a better alternative? Being only a weekender, I would like to be as efficient as possible(within my proposed setup).

My first use of AUF was a old house vacuum cleaner using the back blow. And boiled 6" flat pan over in less than a minuet. After I got that big pile of red hot coals burnt down I used less wood. Then added 500 CFM squirrel cage. Now the thing is to get the air "under" the fire. I first used a piece of old exhaust pipe and cut 1/4" wide slots with 4" grinder almost half way thru the pipe with a couple feet sticking out to hook vacuum to. Made fire burn like a blacksmith's forge. But best start small and see how you can handle that and then see if you think you can add more air and still control the boil,,,,,,,,,, without boiling over.

[Benny8]

Looking like we might be going with a Mason 2x3 Hobby Evaporator. The wife says to buy one that is proven. So, anyone have any tips, tricks or suggestions. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[MISugarDaddy]

Sounds like you have married a smart woman like I did...listen to her. Based on another current thread on the forum regarding availability of a Mason 2x3, you might want to locate one soon. Don't be afraid of considering a 2x4 if you find one for a reasonable price. I am not suggesting a particular manufacturer, just that you might find a 2x4 might work for you better in the years to come as I guarantee you will want something a little bigger after you get hooked on this hobby. Originally I was looking at a half-pint, but after talking to a few people who were selling theirs, it became apparent that they wanted bigger after just a year or two of having their smaller unit. We started out with a 2x4 unit and it worked great for us for 8 years before we finally outgrew it. Just a thought to consider, because going to a 2x4 is not that much more than a 2x3.
Gary

[anchorhd]

The new Mason 2x3 XL has a better preheater.