Help laying out a hobbyist vacuum system

[mspina14]

I'm a hobbyist that got the Maple sugar bug about 4 years ago. I do it with my 3 kids and it's one of the few family activities that we all enjoy doing.

I have about 5 wooded acres with a mix of oak, black walnut, sycamore, and birch trees. No sugar maples. I also have about 50 red maples on the property. I have tried tapping the reds with buckets, but have never been able to get more than about a 1/4 bucket of sap from any tree in a season. Some none.

So I have had to tap sugar maples on other folks property around town, or the occasional sugar maple along side of a road in a public right of way. Takes a lot of driving around town to collect the buckets, but its fun.

I'd read recently on this forum about folks that have had success in getting decent sap flow from reds with vacuum. I'd love to give it a try but don't want to spend huge dollars, as this is strictly a family hobby (and I still have 1 more kid to put through college!)

I've attached a lot map of my 5 acre site which shows the location of my house and lot boundaries. My property is basically a rectangle that is 400 feet wide (west to east) and 600 feet tall (north to south). The sap house is about 50 feet east of the house (north is at the top of the map). My property is pretty flat, sloping slightly from west to east.

Any thoughts on how to go about laying out vacuum lines with this situation?

thanks

Mark

14404

[madmapler]

I'd probably start with a 500' roll of 3/4" mainline and run 2 or 3 runs east to west with a 2% slope if you can although a 1% will work if its really tight. You should be able to get your trees with relatively short laterals. You could just tie all the 3/4" mains together with Ys maybe favoring more pitch after the connections if possible. For as far as you're going, that should distribute the vacuum pretty efficiently.

[Biz]

You might want to look into using a Shurflo pump setup if you don't have a ton of taps. Lots of others including me have used them. The pump, strainer, and fittings etc should be around $100 or so. If you go with the 12 volt pump, you will need a battery and a way to keep it charged. I've used mine on short 3/16" lines of 12-25 taps, sugar and reds, and it works great. I think just a little vacuum will work wonders, either gravity or pump.

Last year I had 3 - 3/16" lines.
Line 1 was red maples only, 15' drop, 27 taps, taps scattered top to bottom so average drop is maybe 8-10'
Line 2 was sugar maples only, about the same drop, 25 taps evenly scattered top to bottom, about the same average drop
Line 3 was sugar maples only, directly across the street from line 2, 21 taps, same scattering top/bottom, a little more drop, running a Shurflo pump, saw 29" vacuum at top.

Results, lines 1 and 2 were very similar yield during the first half of the season, other than line 1 with the reds stopping about a weak earlier than the others. On a couple particularly good days both lines 1 and line 2 overflowed 30 gallon barrels.
Line 3 would regularly overflow my 30 gallon barrel. Got easily double the sap with the pump, even having lost unknown amounts due to overflowing. I used my own controller so it would automatically turn on/off, which helped a lot since it is 3/4 mile away. Will be making up controllers for next season, stay tuned.

Dave

[blurr95]

You might also consider tapping your sycamores. They are supposed to have a very tasty syrup. Not a lot of info out there about it though. I am planning on tapping ours this year. From what I have read they have about the same sap flow as maples, they are supposed to run later in the season also. Black walnuts make good tasting syrup as well, but the trees don't give near the sap, and I think it's typically a lower sugar content. Just some thoughts for you, my family and I started this year and can't wait for next season. Good luck.

Jason

[mspina14]

Thanks guys.

How big of a pump do you need for 500 feet of mainline (assuming minimal slope)?

Does the number of Y's in the mainline effect vacuum strength? Or do you only have to worry about the combined total length of main line?

I don't want to get into an expensive system with a pump and a releaser. So I'm thinking more along the lines of a diaphragm pump. For a system with a single pump, how long can the mainline be without significant vacuum loss?

Also, will a vacuum system work without any slope at all completely flat? (Maybe I'll have to tap the last tree on the line at 12 feet off the ground!)

Finally, can the mainline be curved 90 degrees to reach a batch of trees that might otherwise go untapped without effecting vacuum pressure?

Thanks for all your generous help.

Mark

[mspina14]

You might also consider tapping your sycamores. They are supposed to have a very tasty syrup. Not a lot of info out there about it though. I am planning on tapping ours this year. From what I have read they have about the same sap flow as maples, they are supposed to run later in the season also. Black walnuts make good tasting syrup as well, but the trees don't give near the sap, and I think it's typically a lower sugar content. Just some thoughts for you, my family and I started this year and can't wait for next season. Good luck.

Jason

Thanks Jason.

I've heard about tapping black walnuts but not about tapping sycamores.

Might have to put out a few buckets on them this year to see what it tastes like.

Mark

[madmapler]

Wyes can create turbulence under high flow conditions but that's with 500 or so taps on a 3/4" line. With the number you are doing, you are way overkill. That setup should get you good vacuum to your trees. The important thing is to have no leaks. A single diaphragm pump would be the way to go. You need to have slope in your mainlines or you will be losing vacuum. You want slope on your laterals too but I'd want to see slope in the mains first. For the width of that bush(150'?) it should be no problem if its flat. Curved mainline is very common so long as there's slope.

[BreezyHill]

While I am a supporter of vacuum pumps over diaphragm pumps on most bushes this is the perfect spot for a diaphragm pump.

The cost is going to be more inline with your suggested budget, I will have three sons in college this year, LOL so I totally get it!!!

With the right setup of the pump, ie ( ice screen, heated space for the pump( even an insulated box and a light bulb..incedescent-or better yet is heat tape as it will shut of at temps of 45 and up and save you $$$ on the electric bill.), and some quick disconnects to get the pump off the line when needed(ie. storage, cleaning or diaphragm change out in the house where fingers will be warm; this will work just fine.

You also will be able to have this pump put the sap in your head tank to sapply the evap. lol...cute misspelling there. Got to love these pain meds.

Distance affects vacuum more than anything else, but a tee will affect vac transfer due to the blockage that turbulence can produce and a Y makes less than a tee. If the main has a y of the same size entering and the main is near full and the y has more slope then you can have a negative affect on both lines past the intersection; but if there is a short section of same slope of the laterial as the main then the sap speed will be reduced and less turbulence will be produced.

With a main that is less than half full I have not seen an issue with turbulence blocking vac transfer when using the above mentioned trick. I have seen it on a 1/4 full main with about the same volume coming in from a 3x greater sloped lateral. Problem is due to the lay of the bush there is no way for a flat area without running the line along side the main for a distance and then into the main. So I will be building a manifold for this location of pvc.

My advice is no matter what stay in the budget. In the future you can upgrade and expand. Spend to much and you will regret your actions. This is not the road that a family hobby should ever take...make it fun for all and especially the family budget keeper.

Ben

[mspina14]

So, how far do you think I can run a 1/2 inch main line on a 2% slope with a diaphragm pump and still be able to pull 25 inches of vacuum at the end of the line (assume laterals with a total of 30-50 taps)?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

IMHO half inch is a waste of time and money. It will not be able to transfer both sap and vacuum.

[Biz]

For that number of taps, I think two or three 3/16 lines using the diaphragm pump would be the lowest cost solution, and should work well.

Dave

[mspina14]

Thanks.

How do you connect three separate 3/16 inch lines to a single pump?

Mark

[Biz]

Haven't done this myself but you will need to make up a simple 1/2" manifold, so each line sees equal vacuum and flow to the pump. Maybe others have photos of their setups.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Without adequate fall, research shows that 3/16 line will not work as well as 5/16 as there will not be good vacuum transfer to the tap hole!

[Super Sapper]

3/16 will not work as well as 5/16 on a limited slope without much fall on a gravity system. With vacuum my experience is different. I had about a 400 foot run with 20 taps on 3/16 with no slope and only lost 1 to 2 inches of vacuum at the end on a system with a shurflo pump. This was only one year and I did not get to play with it much as when the sap flowed I had a hard time keeping up boiling so I couldn't maintain the system very well but was impressed with the limited loss.

[VT_K9]

I would keep at least a short mainline in the is here. It will help with giving you a place to have your sap lines get to the pump. I would stay away from 1/2" and probably 3/4" since you are near the pump. The small the diameter of the line the easier it will be to freeze and. Likely freeze solid. We we first put in a diaphragm pump we went from a 3/4" to 1" mainline. It made a difference. We still used wire and held the mainline tight, but there were no sags deep enough to freeze a 1" line. I could see were a 1/2" line would easily freeze and a 3/4" freeze enough we were happy to go with the 1".

As far as the pump goes we were very happy with our diaphragm pump from Goodrich Maple. We used a Honda eu2000 for powe (we also use it elsewhere on the property). If you go this route get several spare diaphragms so you done wear one out (I heard the new ones were better) at an inconvenient time. Also run it like a vacuum...if our temps did not drop below 30f over night I left it on.

I see a lot of people running a surflow type pump here. I don't have any experience and since switching to full vacuum I have not read a lot, but. I think a lower price for the setup is a major factor.

Good Luck,

Mike

[madmapler]

The more mainline you run, the better vacuum transfer you'll have. 5/16 Laterals don't transfer vac. well without slope and 3/16 is even worse so the shorter lateral runs you have with less taps in them the better off you'll be.

[Biz]

My understanding is that the principles behind vacuum in a 3/16" tubing setup are different than with a 5/16" setup. There is an article on the UVM site, "High Vacuum in Gravity Tubing" by Tim Wilmot that helps explains it. If using 3/16 tubing, vacuum transfer to the taphole is caused by the weight of the column of sap in the tubing, plus any external vacuum applied, up to the maximum 29". So it works if the tubing is completely filled with sap, which is the case with the 3/16" because of surface tension with the smaller diameter. For 5/16" tubing, the tubing is not usually filled so you do not get the column of sap and you need the vacuum applied through the air to the taphole. At least that is my understanding, maybe I am wrong, I am still learning things. Great discussion!
Dave

[madmapler]

My understanding is that the principles behind vacuum in a 3/16" tubing setup are different than with a 5/16" setup. There is an article on the UVM site, "High Vacuum in Gravity Tubing" by Tim Wilmot that helps explains it. If using 3/16 tubing, vacuum transfer to the taphole is caused by the weight of the column of sap in the tubing, plus any external vacuum applied, up to the maximum 29". So it works if the tubing is completely filled with sap, which is the case with the 3/16" because of surface tension with the smaller diameter. For 5/16" tubing, the tubing is not usually filled so you do not get the column of sap and you need the vacuum applied through the air to the taphole. At least that is my understanding, maybe I am wrong, I am still learning things. Great discussion!
Dave
What you're saying is true but applies to a gravity system. Its recommended to have 30'? of drop after the tap to work well. Mechanical vacuum is effective in assisting the gravity vac. but 3/16 doesn't transfer vac. well in a relatively horizontal application. You'd be better off with 5/16. mspina14 stated in an earlier thread that his woods are pretty flat.

[mspina14]

Thanks for all your help.

I'm thinking about using a diaphragm pump connected to a 3/4" mainline with 5/16' laterals. I only have about 6-8 feet of drop over a 500 foot distance from the edge of my property to my sap house. So not much slope at all.

I noticed that the diaphragm pumps discussed below (Shurflo, Aquatech, etc.) have 1/4' to 1/2" ports. Can an adapter be used to connect the ports on the pump to a 3/4" mainline without losing significant vacuum?

thanks again.

Mark

[Super Sapper]

The vac in a 3/16 line is caused by vacuum created by the sap moving through the line whether by gravity or mechanical. The space created does not know what caused it. A 5/16 line will have air slippage around the sap letting downstream air replace the sap that is moving through the line where 3/16 does not.

[Hop Kiln Road]

Get a Lunchbox Releaser from Northwood Sugarworks.

[madmapler]

The vac in a 3/16 line is caused by vacuum created by the sap moving through the line whether by gravity or mechanical. The space created does not know what caused it. A 5/16 line will have air slippage around the sap letting downstream air replace the sap that is moving through the line where 3/16 does not.

My thought is that a line that's sagging because it's full of sap can't be transferring vac. to the taphole very efficiently. Air slippage = vacuum. A small pump like that is spending a good share of its energy pulling sap through the line, possibly even uphill. I haven't read the recent info. but if what your saying is true then 5/16 would be obsolete.

[GeneralStark]

The vac in a 3/16 line is caused by vacuum created by the sap moving through the line whether by gravity or mechanical. The space created does not know what caused it. A 5/16 line will have air slippage around the sap letting downstream air replace the sap that is moving through the line where 3/16 does not.

Not quite. Vacuum is the absence of matter in a space. In a 3/16 line the absence of matter is created by a column of sap moving downhill (slope is critical to establish the vacuum), and assuming the length of the line, number of taps, and its slope is adequate enough to have a large enough volume of sap moving downhill, vacuum will be created in the line. To be most effective, 30' of drop (vertical) is ideal below the lowest tap on the line.

In a conventional vacuum tubing system (mainline and 5/16 laterals) with a mechanical pump, air is pumped out of the system but the sap and air compete for space in the line. The air moves faster as it has less friction in the system, but it can be slowed by sap movement when the sap fills the tubing. If the movement of air is inhibited, the system will be less efficient in its capability to maintain higher vac. levels. Hence the importance of properly sized mainlines, the use of dry lines, minimizing sags, properly sloping the lines, keeping laterals short with fewer taps, and proper leak management.

With hybrid systems (mainline and 3/16 laterals) with a mechanical pump, the effect is additive between the two situations described above. BUT, the 3/16 lines must be sloped for the system to be effective. Sure it will work without great slope and with sags, but the greater line loss in the 3/16 line due to its smaller diameter will inhibit the removal of air from the system and the effect will no longer be additive, and may reduce the effectiveness of the system. The ideal scenario is the same as with a gravity 3/16 system, good slope, longer laterals (relative to 5/16 laterals in a conventional system) but the advantage is you can get away with less of an overall drop so the 30' below the lowest tap is no longer critical to achieve high vacuum because the air removal from the mainlines by the pump compensates for the lower overall drop.

So, if you are able to achieve 25" of vac. in your mainlines, all you really need to achieve 28" at the tapholes in your 3/16 lines is about 3' of drop below the lowest taphole. Once again however, the slope is critical to the equation to create the vacuum in the 3/16 lines.

[Super Sapper]

I will agree that additional vacuum needs a drop in elevation but transferring vacuum is more efficient with 3/16 and while a line with no slope will not create any vacuum it will transfer it much better than 5/16 on a mechanical vacuum line. This is not the ideal way to run a system but it did work for me. Last year I replaced about 200 feet of 3/4 inch line on a 400 foot system with a shurflo because it did not seem to work very will with the 3/4 and 5/16 the prior year. Even though I was only able to get about 12 inches of vacuum at the pump due to being flooded when the sap ran and no time I was pulling 10 or 11 at the end of about 300 feet of 3/16 with around 20 taps on it. I just ran the 3/16 without sloping it as it was pretty flat and the results were promising. The way see it sap runs from a higher pressure to a lower pressure area and the space it used to occupy needs to be replaced. In a 5/16 line air will slip by the sap to fill the void and with 3/16 it is harder for the air to slip past it thus transferring the vacuum. I plan to do more testing with it this spring. The only issue so far is that it is more prone to getting plugged up but has not been too bad.

[GeneralStark]

If I am reading your post correctly it seems like you are saying that vacuum is better "transferred" through a liquid and therefore a 3/16 line will be more effective than a 5/16 line if the tubing is installed with no slope. Correct?

While you do often hear folks using the term "vacuum transfer" in relation to tubing systems, it is air that is actually being transferred or removed from the system to create a vacuum. The more you can do do ensure good air transfer, the better the system will function.

[AirDave]

Hybrid system need to be full of sap since diaphragm pump (ex. Shurflo) have more "pull" when moving liquid instead of air.
So, you will get higher vacuum by keeping the lines full of sap. Therefore, the use of mainline in those system will hurt performances.
Also, little sag in the lines are irrelevant in those systems since the lines are always full of sap.
I like to see it like a needle pulling water...
I had 170 taps on 8 laterals (20-25 taps/laterals) with no slope... and maintain an average of 20" of vac all season with a 12v Seaflo 5 gpm diaphragm pump.
With some lines with 4 feets of slope, I reached 22" of vac. Lines with slight negative slope scored 16" of vac.

[mspina14]

Hybrid system need to be full of sap since diaphragm pump (ex. Shurflo) have more "pull" when moving liquid instead of air.
So, you will get higher vacuum by keeping the lines full of sap. Therefore, the use of mainline in those system will hurt performances.
Also, little sag in the lines are irrelevant in those systems since the lines are always full of sap.
I like to see it like a needle pulling water...
I had 170 taps on 8 laterals (20-25 taps/laterals) with no slope... and maintain an average of 20" of vac all season with a 12v Seaflo 5 gpm diaphragm pump.
With some lines with 4 feets of slope, I reached 22" of vac. Lines with slight negative slope scored 16" of vac.

Dave:

What is the diameter size of the tubing for the 8 laterals in your system?

Also, how long is your longest line from the pump to the end of the lateral?

thanks

Mark

[Clinkis]

Hybrid system need to be full of sap since diaphragm pump (ex. Shurflo) have more "pull" when moving liquid instead of air.
So, you will get higher vacuum by keeping the lines full of sap. Therefore, the use of mainline in those system will hurt performances.
Also, little sag in the lines are irrelevant in those systems since the lines are always full of sap.
I like to see it like a needle pulling water...
I had 170 taps on 8 laterals (20-25 taps/laterals) with no slope... and maintain an average of 20" of vac all season with a 12v Seaflo 5 gpm diaphragm pump.
With some lines with 4 feets of slope, I reached 22" of vac. Lines with slight negative slope scored 16" of vac.

My experiences seem to be a little different then yours. I've ran sureflo' for 3 seasons now. The first 2 seasons I all 5/16 tubing. Last year I started using 3/4 mainline and it drastically improved the performance of my system. I get higher consistent vacuum and thus more sap. It is true, yes, you the sureflo' work better when they have liquid in them but it doesn't mean all your lines need to be full. You just need a steady trickle into the pump. You still need proper slope and line capacity to transfer the sap and air. This also prevents the start and stop or surging you get with 5/16. They will work with minimal or negative slope but not to their full potential.

[Moser's Maple]

Cornell published research in the maple news and 3/16 hybrid on minimal slope actually yielded less sap than traditional 5/16 system. Also they found during freezes sap can be drawn back to the tap hole from as far as 12 feet and not the normal 16 inches you find in a 5/16 system if I'm remembering the article correctly.

[johnpma]

Can someone explain the best procedure to determine the amount of slope you have? In my case I have all short runs with 5/16" We still bucket a lot of our trees But I do have one spot I may want to try 3/16" tubing on

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

So slope percent can be looked at as increase in feet over a 100 foot run. So if you climb 2 feet in a 100 foot run you have a 2% slope 10 feet of loss in 100 feet is a 10% slope. I use a clinometer but most people will guess. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/e68ae67527b5aa39d8ea766ca409e2b4.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johnpma]

So slope percent can be looked at as increase in feet over a 100 foot run. So if you climb 2 feet in a 100 foot run you have a 2% slope 10 feet of loss in 100 feet is a 10% slope. I use a clinometer but most people will guess. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/e68ae67527b5aa39d8ea766ca409e2b4.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Thank you!! I have about 10 nice sugar maples on a hill beside my barn I have been contemplating using 3/16" on 5/16" has given us great results so I'm a bit iffy about switching

[lpakiz]

The very most accurate way to measure fall is a piece of small tube. In your case, a length of 3/16 or 5/16 lateral line would be fine, and length from one end of your proposed run to the other.
Get a 5 gallon pail of water and set it on your hood or your tailgate. Start a siphon going and don't let it suck ANY air while the tube fills. When it runs out the bottom end of the tube, have your buddy grab the submerged end and put his thumb over the end. Meanwhile you grab the bottom end and put your thumb over it, to capture the water and not let any air enter.
Walk to the area to be measured. The person on the high end should hold the water level at the height you want to tap the highest tree. The person at the proposed tank location will have to hold the tube up, perhaps even with the use of a ladder. Remove your thumbs and let the liquid equalize. This might take a minute or more if you use 3/16 and a length of 100 feet or more. Mark your end, then measure down to the level of the tank. 1 1/2 feet of fall in 100 feet (1.5%) will work, but you'll need supports every 20 or 25 feet to prevent sags. 5 or 6 feet of drop needs support way less. Even if you have more or less than 100 feet, you will be able to determine the amount of slope, just not be able to express it in %.
In my experience, 1 1/2 % cannot be seen with the eye, and pretty tough even with the aforementioned instrument. On the other hand, 6% can be seen close enough with the instrument to work.
I had 1.4% fall. I installed posts exactly every 25 feet, then divided 1.4 feet by 4, to give the rise (4. 2 inches) for each 25 foot interval. I used the hose level again to mark each post EXACTLY at the correct height, then adjusted the mainline to each mark.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

A sight level: https://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Level-Tool-80-5556-Contractor/dp/B000KKWQ9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472675688&sr=8-1&keywords=sight+level

And ruler: https://www.amazon.com/Apex-Tool-Group-Engineers-Folding/dp/B00002N5LW/ref=pd_sim_469_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PRHPY0QM3AF87G3DH5W2

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

A laser range finder that shows degree angle will work too. Multiply degree angle x 1.75 to get slope percentage

[bmbmkr]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html

http://www.calcunation.com/calculator/slope-percent-conversion.php

I found these two calculators the other day after reading this thread. I have 900' of mainline to lay out this year- (goin that distance again next year), I have been using the laser level, water filled tube, and an old transit my cousin loaned me to determine that YES! I will be able to get syrup to the ol sawmill shed, I mean new sugar house on gravity with a 2% slope, but I will have to pump it up 6 or 8 feet to the head tank but that beats 300 yds of hauling everyday. All this for 75 taps,( another 125 next year on the extension) that will be on 12v diapram vacuum and the higher elevation trees at the top of the property will be on 3/16. Can't wait!! Thanks all you guys for your input all over this forum!