Zero slope

[Bfouts]

Most of my woods are pretty flat. So I have a good bulk of my trees are on flat land. Would I set my tubing up normal with out slope? How would I create a natural vacuum? I'm not in the position to buy a vacuum yet. So what are others doing with tubing, no vacuum and on flat ground?


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[Cedar Eater]

You could drive a capped pipe 30+ feet into the ground and get natural vacuum by running your saplines into that pipe and then using a submersible pump to pump it out. My flat land just happens to be a plateau next to a natural drainage, so my natural vacuum is natural.

[Maplewalnut]

Give us some more info and we can help out. How much land? about how many taps? Is there good truck access to land? You can get some slope just by tapping your end tree high. Some even use step ladders to tap real high It might even be better to tap buckets if you have the time. I always thought buckets outperform gravity tubing.

[Bfouts]

Give us some more info and we can help out. How much land? about how many taps? Is there good truck access to land? You can get some slope just by tapping your end tree high. Some even use step ladders to tap real high It might even be better to tap buckets if you have the time. I always thought buckets outperform gravity tubing.

I have about 14 acres wooded. I figured I will be able to get to around 500 taps. I can access the wood with a couple trailers via side by side or tractor. I have 1 area where I can run gravity lines. I did so last year on 25 taps. First year running tubing. This year I am looking at taping 100-200 taps. If I can make or purchase an evaporator that will work with that many taps. There are 2 other areas that have some nice maple that are both between 2&3 acres. I'm wanting to run tubing to save on time collecting. I work 60ish hours a week. So time is valuable.a vacuum is in the future just not in the next couple of seasons.


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[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Have you actually checked your slope or just eyeballed it? Does water drain off of the area? Even a very limited slope will allow gravity lines to work.

[Bfouts]

Have you actually checked your slope or just eyeballed it? Does water drain off of the area? Even a very limited slope will allow gravity lines to work.

I have not checked the slope it's more of an eyeball. But depending on the area there is standing water. There may be 1% . I have looked in to renting a laser level to check the different area's of the woods to see.


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[motowbrowne]

I bought a Shurflo diaphragm pump for $70. I know a producer running 185 taps on one getting 18" of vacuum. He's using all 5/16 line. For what they cost, I'd highly recommend getting one. Buckets are good, but a pain to connect. Tubing without slope or vacuum would be a waste of time in my opinion.

[maple flats]

Just try a hand held site level. Here's 2 ideas: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200411613_200411613?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Construction%20%3E%20Measuring%20Tools&utm_campaign=Johnson%20Level&utm_content=436348&gclid=COWfm_b788wCFYsmhgodj-cKeg
and http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA14R0KE1692&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-AT+-+Measuring+Tools-_-9SIA14R0KE1692&gclid=CIXH5L3888wCFcNahgodLdMIOg&gclsrc=aw.ds

The second one is used more commonly and maple dealers sell them for $30-35, sometimes even more. I have both an automatic laser level that will only throw a level line, and a manual laser that can project a line up to 4% slope, read by a bubble, or steeper without the bubble to give the slope, but I use the second one I gave you a link to when setting or checking lines.
Be looking for a diaphragm pump or a used dairy pump, they will increase the flow from what you can get with minimal slope gravity lines. If you find a used dairy pump you will also need a releaser, while the diaphragm pumps need no releaser.
I would not rent a laser for tubing, you don't need it. For what you would pay rent for a weekend you could buy a small diaphragm pump to handle 100 taps easily, 200 likely not. maple flats

[randomseeker]

I have 19 gravity lines connecting approximately 20 trees per line running into 10 gallon totes. Each line is several hundred feet long, all 5/16. The bush is completely flat, red maples in water. I attempt to get a 2% grade which is mostly successful by using a step ladder and putting the end tap at about 15 feet above grade. It works, but I average about 1/2 litre syrup per tap, which is below what everyone else says they get, but part of that is flow is inhibited when the totes are full, which does happen. When things are running well it is a beautiful site - the flow is good.

Next year I am going to experiment with a couple of lines that are almost flat. The hypothesis being that once the sap has filled the line, gravity plays less of a role than syphoning (natural vacuum).

Good luck.

[Cedar Eater]

Gravity is the cause of siphoning. It produces the natural vacuum.

[randomseeker]

Yes, but I wonder if it would continue to draw once it is flowing. Let's say I started one tree at the far end of the line fairly high, and then ran the rest fairly level. Once the line was full, I wonder if it would run. If so, I could get many more trees on the same line. So instead, in my case, of having the end tap 15 feet up with a 2% gradient to the bottom encompassing about 20 trees, I could have a 1% or even 1/2% grade and pick up 40 to 50 trees. That would also allow me to get farther into my bush.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, but I wonder if it would continue to draw once it is flowing.

If you mean you are considering doing this with 3/16" tubing, then I would strongly advise against it. Natural vacuum is generated by sap running downhill (or more appropriately, the weight of a cohesive liquid in a small tube across a difference in height). However the friction in the line on low slopes is enough to overcome the small positive effect you get due to the small height difference, which results in frictional forces being the dominant player in these instances. This friction in the tubing causes a build-up of backpressure and results in reduced sap yield. 3/16" tubing is GREAT on slopes, but BAD on flat land.

In short, you can't get something (natural vacuum) from nothing (no slope).

[Bfouts]

If you mean you are considering doing this with 3/16" tubing, then I would strongly advise against it. Natural vacuum is generated by sap running downhill (or more appropriately, the weight of a cohesive liquid in a small tube across a difference in height). However the friction in the line on low slopes is enough to overcome the small positive effect you get due to the small height difference, which results in frictional forces being the dominant player in these instances. This friction in the tubing causes a build-up of backpressure and results in reduced sap yield. 3/16" tubing is GREAT on slopes, but BAD on flat land.

In short, you can't get something (natural vacuum) from nothing (no slope).

Dr Tim Perkins,

From my original post if I am no in the position to use a pump and I don't have enough slope is my best bet to just run drop lines?


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[motowbrowne]

Dr Tim Perkins,

From my original post if I am no in the position to use a pump and I don't have enough slope is my best bet to just run drop lines?


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I'm not Dr. Tim, but I'll see if I can be of any service.

I don't know what you mean by "just run drop lines". Drop lines are the short pieces of tubing that runs from the tap to the lateral line which runs from tree to tree into a tank or larger line (mainline). You can also use drop lines to run from a tap into a bucket. If you have zero slope and aren't able to run a pump, then it would seem to be that buckets are going to be your only option.

By the way, there's lots of guys running Shurflo diaphragm pumps powered with deep cycle batteries that are either charged with solar panels or swapped out with a fresh battery every couple of days. I know a guy with 185 taps on 5/16 tubing on a Shurflo pulling 18" of vacuum. Yes, he could do a lot better with a bigger pump and a releaser, but for $70, pulling 18" and not having to collect buckets is pretty sweet.

[Bfouts]

I'm not Dr. Tim, but I'll see if I can be of any service.

I don't know what you mean by "just run drop lines". Drop lines are the short pieces of tubing that runs from the tap to the lateral line which runs from tree to tree into a tank or larger line (mainline). You can also use drop lines to run from a tap into a bucket. If you have zero slope and aren't able to run a pump, then it would seem to be that buckets are going to be your only option.

By the way, there's lots of guys running Shurflo diaphragm pumps powered with deep cycle batteries that are either charged with solar panels or swapped out with a fresh battery every couple of days. I know a guy with 185 taps on 5/16 tubing on a Shurflo pulling 18" of vacuum. Yes, he could do a lot better with a bigger pump and a releaser, but for $70, pulling 18" and not having to collect buckets is pretty sweet.

Thank you.

I really want to invest in a pump. But my first major investment I feel I need to do is purchase an arch. My 55 gallon drum just doesn't cut it for what I want to do. I don't want to end up with more sap then what I can boil down.



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[BreezyHill]

But my first major investment I feel I need to do is purchase an arch. My 55 gallon drum just doesn't cut it for what I want to do. I don't want to end up with more sap then what I can boil down.



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That is a smart business move. It really sucks not having time to boil off sap that is in collection tanks!

[DrTimPerkins]

From my original post if I am no in the position to use a pump and I don't have enough slope is my best bet to just run drop lines?

Either droplines (into buckets presumably) or 5/16" lines would work (as long as they are very carefully set up with minimal slope using a level).

[johnpma]

Either droplines (into buckets presumably) or 5/16" lines would work (as long as they are very carefully set up with minimal slope using a level). Am I understanding this correctly? With 5/16" lines you want minimal slope?

[DrTimPerkins]

Am I understanding this correctly? With 5/16" lines you want minimal slope?

I don't believe you are:

3/16" tubing should ONLY be used where there is adequate slope. It should NOT be used in minimal slope applications.
5/16" tubing can be used with good slope, or with minimal slope, although as slope decreases, good installation (to ensure SOME constant slope) becomes more important as you still need SOME slope to get the lines to run properly.

[johnpma]

I don't believe you are:

3/16" tubing should ONLY be used where there is adequate slope. It should NOT be used in minimal slope applications.
5/16" tubing can be used with good slope, or with minimal slope, although as slope decreases, good installation (to ensure SOME constant slope) becomes more important as you still need SOME slope to get the lines to run properly. Thank you Sir!! My property has many maples but they are spread out among st the acreage My son and I looked for our best solution to tapping these trees We have many 5/16" tubing systems installed but in small areas throughout We also use buckets in some spots I'm going to expand to a zero slope part of our property which has quite a few sugar maples again spread out so I'm trying to come up with the best scenario for this area

[eustis22]

Dr. Tim, I have a minimal slope area I want to tube this season and thank you for the information I should use 5/16 vs 3/16 for minimal slope areas. Do I need to add a vacuum pump to assist the slight gravity feed on these?

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim, I have a minimal slope area I want to tube this season and thank you for the information I should use 5/16 vs 3/16 for minimal slope areas. Do I need to add a vacuum pump to assist the slight gravity feed on these?

Yes, 5/16" is better for low slope applications. A vacuum pump would certainly improve your results, but is not absolutely necessary.

[johnpma]

Dr. Tim, I have a minimal slope area I want to tube this season and thank you for the information I should use 5/16 vs 3/16 for minimal slope areas. Do I need to add a vacuum pump to assist the slight gravity feed on these?
Are you planning on fabricating slope by tap placement? I'm in the same boat and I'm considering sap sacks just not sure which of the two would yield more

[eustis22]

I have about a 5% drop so I will use tap placement to facilitate.

[johnpma]

Can someone tell me the minimum slope required to use 5/16" tubing in a tree to tree application? I have about 8 trees in one section of my property with zero slope (old pasture) I am going to attempt to fabricate slope and run 5/16" tubing tree to tree this season

[DrTimPerkins]

Can someone tell me the minimum slope required to use 5/16" tubing in a tree to tree application? I have about 8 trees in one section of my property with zero slope (old pasture) I am going to attempt to fabricate slope and run 5/16" tubing tree to tree this season

Minimum is 1% (2% or more is better), but that is only if you are good at running tubing and you use a level to make sure you are getting slope. If you have vacuum, then slope is somewhat less critical, and some people even run tubing slightly upslope in limited cases. If your slope is that low, use 5/16" tubing for your lateral lines and droplines.

[sugarwoodacres]

I bought a Shurflo diaphragm pump for $70. I know a producer running 185 taps on one getting 18" of vacuum. He's using all 5/16 line. For what they cost, I'd highly recommend getting one. Buckets are good, but a pain to connect. Tubing without slope or vacuum would be a waste of time in my opinion.
How are you hooking up the pump ? Is it just direct in line ? Thanks

[Haynes Forest Products]

Make sure you get good leak free fittings for the pump to tubing small amounts of air will kill your vacuum. Plus keep the pump at the lowest point near the collection point even though they can be run dry they make better vacuum with even with small amounts of liquid slurping in.

[DougM]

Part of our ground is also fairly flat, but it sounds like using 5/16 might present some possibilities for us to use tubing on it. What is the recommended maximum number of taps for a 5/16" line?

[johnpma]

Part of our ground is also fairly flat, but it sounds like using 5/16 might present some possibilities for us to use tubing on it. What is the recommended maximum number of taps for a 5/16" line?If you are going tree to tree with 5/16" on gravity I would try to keep the number of taps around 10 per run. My maples are spread out all over the property so I have many 5/16" runs with few taps and in some cases I have to create slope in my runs on my flat areas. I'm using a sight level this year which seems to really help