Wood walls in sugarhouse

[markcasper]

It appears that the food inspectors (as of 2016, sanitarians in this politically correct society), at least in Wisconsin are gunning for sugarmakers to replace or cover any exposed wood walls, studs, rafters...etc with easily cleanable materials. For 25 years my building was sufficient, apparently not anymore. Yet a trip through the Maple News, the Maple Digest and various pictures on the web show many, many sap shanty's with wood walls and ceilings. Are you guys in Vermont inspected yearly by a government watchdog?? How are you guys in Vermont getting by building NEW buildings with exposed wood all over the place and getting by with it?

I am at a crossroads of what to do....not really wanting to spend a pile of money glassboarding/tinning my shack when a new one is possibly in the future. It seems because of the FSMA of 2011 the FDA is pushing these agendas onto the states, at least in Wisconsin. I do believe our Wisconsin inspectors are the toughest to please out of any state or province inspectors
!

[dschultz]

Mark
I was inspected in March and they didn't say anything to me,but I have osb on my walls painted white and there ok with that even in my bottling room.
Just tell them your going to rebuild in a couple of yrs and saving your money for the new one and if they don't like if tough.

[David in MI]

Michigan has the same requirement

[BreezyHill]

Mark, Check out the products that fartek offers and there is another place that had washable wall board for around $20 a 4x8 sheet. Card was in the mail. I think I saved it and will look when I get a moment.' We redid the ceiling and painted the concrete walls a few years back. Lights have covers was the big thing they looked at with us.

No matter how hard you try to please some inspectors...they will always find something out of code; while others will speed through and be gone in 10 minutes.

[markcasper]

They were at my place for 3 1/2 hours. My bottling room has white tin on it, apparently the wood trim around the door and window has to go, along with the stand I made for the handwash sink or be painted with some type of sealant of which I am not sure.
Still curious about all of the new sugarhouses being constructed of wood inside and out being able to pass code in Vermont, or maybe I'm missing something?

[MISugarDaddy]

During our initial inspection in 2015, the inspector said that all wood had to be covered or sealed. We had used treated 4"x6" lumber to support our feed tank and the inspector said that we needed to either seal the posts or cover them in some manner. Fortunately we had covered all our walls and ceiling with FRP (fiberglas reinforced panels) we had gotten at Menards and he was happy with that. He did require us to install a hand washing sink because he said it wasn't legal for us to use the stainless steel sink we used for washing equipment to wash our hands. Fortunately we were able to take care of that quite easily.
Gary

[PerryFamily]

Being a Vermonter I'll give you what I know, albeit very little
To my knowledge:
Vermont does not have any type of registration or inspection
However, you can do a voluntary inspection to have your facility certified.
Most of the criteria are super simple, washable floor (stone, concrete)
Covered lighting, covered tanks, hand wash station, cleaning procedure .....
From what I've read there's no rule on exposed wood. I'm sure the time will come here when everyone who produces to sell, regardless of the size, has to register and be state inspected. And to honest with you I'm ok with that. We are making a food product and need to ensure we are providing adequate safety precautions.

I personally don't see where exposed wood would bother in an evaporator room. I could see in a room where all your canning is done.

I have no problem with some regulations provided they make sense and are realistic

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I feel bad for you guys in the midwest, sounds like a bunch of unnecessary, regulatory BS every time someone posts about these requirements. Also seems there is no consistency from one inspection to another. In Maine, we have inspections for our buildings and cleanliness is really the big thing along with a water supply for cleaning, etc. Really just common sense stuff that is important but not overboard.

[GeneralStark]

At this point it is left up to each state as to how they want to handle the interpretation and administration of the FDA regs. It sounds like Michigan interprets things differently than VT for better or for worse. As PerryFamily said our certification is voluntary, though cleanable walls are not presently required.

Personally, I am planning to use FRP in a portion of my sugarhouse this Fall, and I'll be adding a SS prep table. SO much easier to clean and I have found that syrup can get into the most unlikely places.

In Vermont syrup production is overseen by the Dept. of Agriculture, but the production of any other product with that maple syrup is overseen by the Dept. of Public Health (Food Safety). In that case you need to be a licensed food processor in a licensed facility, and the regulations for that are quite strict. Some can get away with a "home license" but there are rumors that that may go away in the near future.

[325abn]

"I'm from the government and I am here to help you"

Inspection? We don't need to stinking inspection!

[BreezyHill]

GS, I have used FRP(Fiber Glass Reinforced Plywood) and the failure rate at 10 years was very high. The PVC board lasted much better. Any location that the wall had an impact would cause the surface would fail and then moisture would swell the ply score.
The place that sent the card was Farmer Boy of Central New York.

[wiam]

GS, I have used FRP(Fiber Glass Reinforced Plywood) and the failure rate at 10 years was very high. The PVC board lasted much better. Any location that the wall had an impact would cause the surface would fail and then moisture would swell the ply score.
The place that sent the card was Farmer Boy of Central New York.

Are you talking about "milk house" board when you say pvc board?

[maple flats]

Breezy, do you have any more info on Farmer Boy of CNY, when I google it, I don't come up with a company by that name.

[mellondome]

Try http://www.farmerboyag.com/

[GeneralStark]

GS, I have used FRP(Fiber Glass Reinforced Plywood) and the failure rate at 10 years was very high. The PVC board lasted much better. Any location that the wall had an impact would cause the surface would fail and then moisture would swell the ply score.
The place that sent the card was Farmer Boy of Central New York.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. What I am talking about is not a "plywood" at all. FRP is pretty much the standard in inspected food processing facilities. It does have to be backed with a rigid surface.

Looks like Farmerboy calls it "glassboard". This is not the cheapest source however...

http://www.farmerboyag.com/panels-hardware/glassboard-reinforced-fiberglass.asp

[jmayerl]

They were at my place for 3 1/2 hours. My bottling room has white tin on it, apparently the wood trim around the door and window has to go, along with the stand I made for the handwash sink or be painted with some type of sealant of which I am not sure.
Still curious about all of the new sugarhouses being constructed of wood inside and out being able to pass code in Vermont, or maybe I'm missing something?

Wisconsin is one of the toughest food standards states. As far as wood and wood trim. The surface needs to be sealed and "washable" when the inspector first came, I had made my own 3 compartment sink with a countertop and 3 bar sinks. The wood surfaces were not covered in the bottom. On Reinspection she was fine with all the bare surfaces primed and painted white.

[markcasper]

Wisconsin is one of the toughest food standards states. As far as wood and wood trim. The surface needs to be sealed and "washable" when the inspector first came, I had made my own 3 compartment sink with a countertop and 3 bar sinks. The wood surfaces were not covered in the bottom. On Reinspection she was fine with all the bare surfaces primed and painted white.
Well I feel better now that I was not the only one getting "reinspected". I was running ragged for awhile. I asked the inspector why noone had shown up since 2012 to inspect, yet I still got my license every year after sending the money in and he basically said it was a combination of increased number of producers and Scott Walkers work in cutting government.

I can not understand that Vermonters are not getting inspected? It looks like the state of Vermont has dropped the ball on that one because they should be doing the work of the FDA according to the Food Safety and Modernization Act of 2011. Again, maybe I'm missing something?

[markcasper]

I feel bad for you guys in the midwest, sounds like a bunch of unnecessary, regulatory BS every time someone posts about these requirements. Also seems there is no consistency from one inspection to another. In Maine, we have inspections for our buildings and cleanliness is really the big thing along with a water supply for cleaning, etc. Really just common sense stuff that is important but not overboard.

We cannot sell bulk in Wisconsin if not licensed, yet you could haul it to Vermont and sell unlicensed and noone would care. Totally bassackwards.

[BAP]

I think you will find, there is no inspection in all New England states. Only inspection in New Hampshire is sometimes the Ag Dept inspector will come around and check hydrometers.

[GeneralStark]

That's right. Live Free or Die!!

[325abn]

What he said!/\ /\

Stop with all this guberment crapola!

[Moser's Maple]

http://construction.about.com/od/Materials/a/Fiberglass-Reinforced-Panels-Frp-Panels.htm

[eagle lake sugar]

In Maine, we have an annual inspection. So far, they're not too picky with wood walls, but I'm sure as the gov. gets more involved it will change. We have to have a water test and sugarhouse inspection in order to be licensed.

[325abn]

Licensed for what in Maine?

[McAllister farm]

Licensed for what in Maine? in Maine we have to be licensed to sell syrup and have a kitchen license to make and sell other maple products.

[markcasper]

in Maine we have to be licensed to sell syrup and have a kitchen license to make and sell other maple products.

Do you have to be over a certain $$$ amount to need a license or ?

[McAllister farm]

You have to have a license if you are selling to the public. If you make 15 gallons or less I think it cost $15.00 if you make more then 15 gallons the license fee is $25.00. I have a farmstand that I sell meat and produce that I grow and I have to have a license for the meat $10.00 and one for farmstand $20.00 for that one I also sell at a farmers market they come and insecpect the farm stand every year along with the sugar house. And I have too have a mobile vendor license to sell at the farmers market that cost $20.00. And sometimes they will come out the farmers market and check to see if everyone has a license.

[rhwells2003]

You have to have a license if you are selling to the public. If you make 15 gallons or less I think it cost $15.00 if you make more then 15 gallons the license fee is $25.00. I have a farmstand that I sell meat and produce that I grow and I have to have a license for the meat $10.00 and one for farmstand $20.00 for that one I also sell at a farmers market they come and insecpect the farm stand every year along with the sugar house. And I have too have a mobile vendor license to sell at the farmers market that cost $20.00. And sometimes they will come out the farmers market and check to see if everyone has a license.

That's ridiculous. Why do they call them all separate "licenses" Lets call it what it is, your being taxed several times over. Reminds me of history class and learning about the mafia and how they'd force business owners to pay a "protection tax". If they refused they'd burn your business down. Not much difference now days, now its just done from old suit and tie politicians. You want to make some money on the side to help support your family? Ok you need this license, that license, pay this tax, get taxed at this higher tax rate. Oh you don't want to spend a bunch of money to make a little money? Too bad! They wont burn your farm stand down, but they'll probably issue a siest and desist order and shut you down.

[Bucket Head]

I'm not against some sort of inspection, seeing I've seen some sugarhouses and practices that just made me cringe, but the "no exposed wood" and half a dozen other outrageous requirements are over the top. And the multiple taxes,... I mean multiple licenses..., are just a money grab.

On the brighter side..., I would say the $10, $15 and $25 fees are reasonable amounts. I would have guessed more than that. Wait till N.Y. implements these. Since we are all supporting N.Y. City and the half of all state inhabitants who are on some sort of assistance, our taxes, ...I mean licenses, will be $100, $150 and $250 if not more.

Steve

[eagle lake sugar]

I talked to a lady today who recently moved back to Maine from Pa. She registered her car and it cost her $380. She said in Pa. it was $34.00. I said "welcome to Maine, land of taxes." We pay excise tax on vehicles every year, not just once like some states.

[markcasper]

We have to pay $95 in Wisconsin if under $25,000 in product per year. If its over that its quite a bit more. And you pay for reinspections if needed.

[AdirondackSap]

I wonder if the Colonist freeing from the king and a huge government had to get there open kettle boiling operations inspected?

[rhwells2003]

I wonder if the Colonist freeing from the king and a huge government had to get there open kettle boiling operations inspected?

I think that's the reason we fought for our freedom. Crazy how it comes full circle huh. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson that had these two quotes "My readings of history convince me that most bad government results from to much government." and "A government big enough to give you everything you need is strong enough to take everything you have"

[AdirondackSap]

Yeah it is crazy . Then you have operations getting handouts like grants to upgrade there effeciency like ROS and new evaporators and steamaways. They get a huge advantage getting free stuff like that. Getting it paid for with tax dollars. People need to go and earn what they get. When we purchased are RO is was a big expense and we had to pinch penny's work hard for that RO and someone gets a grants it just tweeKS me. It's like we have the got picking the winners and losers. It's defiantly a plot to keep smaller operations out by railroading with roadblocks by having to pay inspection fees just to make 100 gallons in syrup, pretty much you have to spend 100 on a certified sugar house to make 4 thousand in syrup crazy

[markcasper]

I got a letter the other day from the Department of Health and Human Services - FDA - Minneapolis that stated : "A state agency contracted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conducted an inspection at XXXXX, WI ending on 3-18-2016. Effective April 1, 1997, when the Agency determines an inspection is closed under 21 C.F.R. 20.64 (d)(3), FDA releases a copy of the inspection report to the inspected firm. Please note that FDA records show a copy of the state contracted inspection report or summary was provided at the close of the state's inspection.
FDA is working to make its regulatory process and activities more transparent to the regulated industry. Part of this effort is releasing a copy of your inspection report or summary to you, or acknowledging that the state provided you a copy at the close of their inspection. We did not attach a copy of your inspection or report as our records indicate that you received a copy from the state at the close of your inspection. Please contact our office if you have any questions."

I have never gotten one of these before after ANY inspection.........

So basically our tax dollars are going for some Fed to send me a letter to tell me that I already have a copy of my report so therefore they won't be sending one. What a flipping waste and joke!

[GeneralStark]

Yeah it is crazy . Then you have operations getting handouts like grants to upgrade there effeciency like ROS and new evaporators and steamaways. They get a huge advantage getting free stuff like that. Getting it paid for with tax dollars. People need to go and earn what they get. When we purchased are RO is was a big expense and we had to pinch penny's work hard for that RO and someone gets a grants it just tweeKS me. It's like we have the got picking the winners and losers. It's defiantly a plot to keep smaller operations out by railroading with roadblocks by having to pay inspection fees just to make 100 gallons in syrup, pretty much you have to spend 100 on a certified sugar house to make 4 thousand in syrup crazy

I was wondering how long it would take before this would come back up....

A great deal of the food safety regulation coming down the line is related to consumers demanding it. The packers need to be able to trace where the syrup is coming from and be sure it is being made in an appropriate facility. We have all seen sugarhouses that are not acceptable.

I'm not saying that there isn't plenty of big govt overreach going on in our world today but chalking this all up to big brother and tax payer handouts to sugarmakers (a total myth) is really oversimplifying a much more complex issue.

[BreezyHill]

I got a letter the other day from the Department of Health and Human Services - FDA - Minneapolis that stated : "A state agency contracted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) conducted an inspection at XXXXX, WI ending on 3-18-2016. Effective April 1, 1997, when the Agency determines an inspection is closed under 21 C.F.R. 20.64 (d)(3), FDA releases a copy of the inspection report to the inspected firm. Please note that FDA records show a copy of the state contracted inspection report or summary was provided at the close of the state's inspection.
FDA is working to make its regulatory process and activities more transparent to the regulated industry. Part of this effort is releasing a copy of your inspection report or summary to you, or acknowledging that the state provided you a copy at the close of their inspection. We did not attach a copy of your inspection or report as our records indicate that you received a copy from the state at the close of your inspection. Please contact our office if you have any questions."

I have never gotten one of these before after ANY inspection.........

So basically our tax dollars are going for some Fed to send me a letter to tell me that I already have a copy of my report so therefore they won't be sending one. What a flipping waste and joke!

Every time we are inspected a our feed mill we have to sign the form and are given a copy of the inspection report. This goes into a file that has a copy of every supplier and address of ingredients and equipment in the event there is ever an issue of any sort. We also have a copy of every exterminator visit, their msds sheets. We also have to have records of every wash down, blow down, painting and any other maintance or sanitation procedure of the mill. And this is only a class c & B liscenesed feed mill for animal feeds. If we have to do a recall it is from the time of issue to the time of the last wash down of the equipment.

We document all washing and sanitation of our maple equipment so that if there is ever an issue we are less likely to have a huge issue.

I agree that grants are another form of welfare and should be discontinued. Subsidies only hurt fair trade and demand side economics by infusing cash into a business that will still compete with a profit driven enterprise. One can easily make the argument that those producers on public assistance should have to provide a percentage of their product to food pantries or other public assistance programs to pay back the value of the assistance plus interest for the duration of the equipment usage and that piece of equipment should be transferred to another producer at no cost at the end of it's use.

I know a producer that bought all of his equipment through grants and after 10 years of production decided to retire and is selling the equipment for more than it was bought for and he made a good living during the use term and to top it off banked a good amount of $$$ toward retirement. He played the system very well.

I strongly suggest every producer reads up on food safety regulations, make a list of what you need to do in order to be compliant and complete a few items on the list every year; if you intend to be making maple products 5 years in the future. This is what we are doing and it is much easier than laying out a bundle of cash and labor at on time.

As A.S. said "Crazy" but the world we live in is getting more crazy ever day; and the number of crazy people is far more than the rest of us.