Slowing down the big guys

[Gone Maple]

I just brought syrup today to sell and the market is flooded. I think something needs to happen with all these big guys. This is rediculis and they say it is not going to get any better soon. They need to cap the big guy and set a standard for the littel producers to. They say they don't hurt the market but they meed to open there eyes you are cutting your own neck. 500,000 taps come on realy. 50,000 cap should be set. This market is hurting us all.

[GeneralStark]

Yeah someone mentioned to me that their buyer is all set. The northern regions had a very good crop this year so that is likely to explain it. The same thing happened in 2013.

[sugaringman85]

Just curious but what were they paying for syrup? I heard commercial is well below $1 a pound now. Either that or someone was feeding me a load of BS, which is entirely possible! Commercial grade has gotten extremely flooded from what i've heard. I agree the big guys keep getting bigger and the little guys are paying the price. Sweet Tree better be finding some kick *** markets and finding them soon or we will have a serious issue on our hands. I bet there will be over a million new taps put on this year. Thats a lot of syrup that has to go somewhere...hope my customers stick with me!

[AdirondackSap]

Let's not make the US like quebec.

[PerryFamily]

Couldn't agree more on this. Although I do appreciate seeing big operations simply because I love stainless and plumbing, I've thought from the beginning that all the huge amounts of taps being added can only hurt the price, especially the bulk market. I think I'm lucky that the operation I sell some bulk to actually prefers the small operations, wood fired especially and prefers dark syrup!
I work my tail off to try to sell as much of my syrup as possible retail.
On a side note Sugaringman85 I personally know of 3 producers that sold syrup to Bascoms
One brought some off tasting syrup there mid to late season and got $2.30
Another brought dark good tasting syrup and got $1.75
While another got $2.20 for techno low flavor syrup
I guess I'll take the $2.25 I got for mine

[mellondome]

Doesn't matter how much we are making in the USA, we still have to import from Canada.
The market isn't getting hurt by big producers. Maple is still the best farming enterprise going. If you don't like the price you are getting for your surplus bulk, stop making extra. If you want producer caps and quotas... move to Canada.

[wiam]

THE FEDERATION IN QUEBEC SETS THE BULK PRICE. Has nothing to do with big producers in the US.

[Cedar Eater]

Unless there's some sort of entitlement to a certain market share, I can't see how this is any different than the market for corn, heavily dominated by the big guys, but the little guys still sell into that market.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

supply and demand, keep uncle Sam out of it as much as possible

[325abn]

What he said! /\ /\

[Gone Maple]

It just makes me sick, I love it as much as the rest of you do. For fun but when I need to put out more taps to make 2 more barrels to just make what I made the year before, it is sick. But when you let the big producers run like this, and you can't sell your product you will look back and say, HU? What do I do now. It just sucks

[BreezyHill]

Supply and demand is the best market tool. The prie gets low enough and the big producers will be forced to scale back or simly shut down. This has happened before and it will again.

Then the price will swing the other way and more taps will be set.

If you get govt involved it will only muck things up. Just ask mellonedome what the price of milk is fluid right now and what break even is.

[PerryFamily]

Just to clarify
I am in no way in favor of the government getting involved in the maple business anymore than they already are

I was merely agreeing that the price sucks

[mellondome]

Currently milk is at 1.17 /gal... the average operation break even is 1.20 / gal. Tight margins will weed out the large operations due to the compound effect. Small guy looses 10k in the year. Large guy looses 3mil in the same year.
Luckily, I'm still on the good side of the milk cost margin.
My cost to produce maple is about $5.25 /gal. Bulk rate is $24 / gal. Much better margin

[maple flats]

I never want to see a quota system in the US. If you think a quota would be good, do some research into the Federation in Quebec, the Federation has to strong arm producers there to prevent those producers from black marketing their syrup. It's never a good thing for an industry to get the government into any business.
Another point, if you must sell bulk, get it there sooner than the end of April. However, in the long run you will be far better off selling retail and maybe selling some bulk to another producer who retails more than they produce, cut out the middleman.

[DaveB]

As others have pointed out, the Quebec cartel sets the bulk price because they currently make the bulk of the worlds maple syrup supply. That wasn't always the case. The U.S. was the dominant player until the 40s and they really didn't produce that much more until the 1980s. There are over 45 Million taps in the province which means that even a 500,000 tap operation here is small in comparison. It's not going to affect the price that much. As the U.S. grows though, it reduces Quebec's ability to control the price.

The other thing to consider is that this is the time of year when everyone's crop is coming in so supply is high and so prices will be low, along with demand because buyers know that they can get it when they need it. They make investments in buying what they think they will need and may stop buying if they think they have enough or if they don't have any more capital to invest.

If we want buyers to be buying more syrup, there needs to be more demand for different maple products. Unfortunately, there is no big push or marketing campaign for that to happen. I've often wondered with all the benefits of using maple syrup over other sweeteners, why more isn't don't to market those to ingredient buyers. Single producers can't do it on their own. Is anyone aware of any effort to have a coordinated maple campaign? It seems like the price will continue to be steady or decline if we produce more unless there is more demand on the consumption end.

[Parker]

The soultion is simple guys,,,get àll the free stuff you can from the goverment,,mabey some new free stuff programs so you can produce the product faster,,,freeing you up to set more taps, heck the price might be low so we will make it up in volume,,,,,just like in dairy,,when the price drops add more cows (we can see how well that has worked for farming).....every year when i visit vermont i am saddend by how well the amazing soil up there is growing houses,,,,,,,,,
Marketing and getting goverment out of maple,,ending hand outs is the way forward,,,getting assocations to market maple,,,growing maple market share,,,and selling retail.......
We have to realize production is going to soar with the new tech availabel which will continue to drive down the bulk price if demand does not start rising faster than production.........

[southfork]

New technology has allowed many syrup makers to expand production. Even going from gravity to high vac increases production without increasing consumption. Look at many of the posters history, most have added taps. Many have also added technology to boost production,..... it all adds up.

All of us, myself included, who have increased production without increasing consumption likely contribute to the "potential problem". Today, there are not enough mega producers in this country to create oversupply and most are doing plenty to increase consumption. In fact, many of the very large producers/packers are buying syrup from other producers to meet their current consumer and market demands. Like any supply and demand type of business, just have to let it play out. Technology is the game changer, not simply who is tapping how many trees.

Don't fear it, spend your time figuring out how best to stay in the changing game. More importantly, continue to help create demand..... and not simply produce!!!

[AdirondackSap]

There is a huge demand for maple out side the maple belt. Ever drive out west California 90$ a gallon and sells all dayong. You have ever to go where the market is

[3GoatHill]

If we want buyers to be buying more syrup, there needs to be more demand for different maple products. Unfortunately, there is no big push or marketing campaign for that to happen. I've often wondered with all the benefits of using maple syrup over other sweeteners, why more isn't don't to market those to ingredient buyers. Single producers can't do it on their own. Is anyone aware of any effort to have a coordinated maple campaign? It seems like the price will continue to be steady or decline if we produce more unless there is more demand on the consumption end.

I'm on the outside fringes of the maple belt in Pennsylvania and you'd be amazed at the amount of folk who have never had the real thing. Once they taste it, they are hooked. Maybe big production is a way to introduce the "pancake syrup" folk to what they have been missing. Like the phrase, "a high tide raises all boats." Same thing is going on in the hard cider industry.

[johnallin]

I think any government intervention is a mistake. They work for us, not the other way around.

[Daveg]

The US-Canadian currency exchange rate is $1-$1.26. Quebec produces 71% of the world's supply. Prices are low.

[unc23win]

I think someone in another thread called it an Epic season. I've heard places up north had a 300% crop and I've seen quite a few people report that they made well over .5GPT both of those are indicators that it was a very productive season. Personally I'm not too worried about the big guys getting bigger.

For each of us a producers it comes down to profit and obviously the smaller producer has a better chance to make a profit (especially in the short term) than a larger producer.

Personally I'm working on expanding my own retail sales as much as possible and starting to produce other products. I've only been making cream 1 month (finally bought a cream machine) and each batch is sold within days of being made. I doubt I will ever sell all my syrup without selling bulk and I know I can't change the bulk price. All I can do is market my product as much as possible and hope everyone else (including the big guys) does the same and the market expands.

[adk1]

I just brought syrup today to sell and the market is flooded. I think something needs to happen with all these big guys. This is rediculis and they say it is not going to get any better soon. They need to cap the big guy and set a standard for the littel producers to. They say they don't hurt the market but they meed to open there eyes you are cutting your own neck. 500,000 taps come on realy. 50,000 cap should be set. This market is hurting us all. Ok so why did you buy syrup to sell? I made 40 gallons this year and had it sold in about one weeks time and I bottle in quarts.

[Clinkis]

I believe he says he brought syrup to sell not bought.......

In our area market is flooded not because of the big guys. There are probably 20-30 producers in our area and every year more are popping up. I find it harder every year to retail syrup and the price is getting weaker. I'd love to make more but have a hard enough time selling what I make now. I'm not big enough to sell in bulk.

[GeneralStark]

It seems like there are two issues being confused in this thread. One is the 2016 bulk price which is due to the poor canadian exchange rate. As long as Quebec produces more syrup than the US, our bulk pricing will be dictated by Quebec. Despite what Parker will attempt to make others believe, it has nothing to do with the addition of taps in the US due to taxpayer handouts. NOTHING.

The other issue is that northern producers (where most of the syrup is made in the US) made lots of syrup this season. Therefore some buyers are cutting producers off for the time being. This is not related to the bulk price.

[DrTimPerkins]

It seems like there are two issues being confused in this thread. One is the 2016 bulk price which is due to the poor canadian exchange rate. As long as Quebec produces more syrup than the US, our bulk pricing will be dictated by Quebec. Despite what Parker will attempt to make others believe, it has nothing to do with the addition of taps in the US due to taxpayer handouts. NOTHING.

The other issue is that northern producers (where most of the syrup is made in the US) made lots of syrup this season. Therefore some buyers are cutting producers off for the time being. This is not related to the bulk price.

Absolutely correct on both points. Realistically, even if they wanted to, the bulk buyers probably don't have a large enough line of credit with their bankers to buy ALL the syrup that was produced this year, thus they are buying from producers they have an established long-term relationship with first, and might buy from others later as sales occur.

You can't ask the government to regulate the big buyers and expect they'll leave the small buyers alone. You are either going to get free markets and the competition that comes with it (pretty much the situation in the U.S. right now), or controlled markets (government or trade group) and the regulation and forced costs that come with it (the way Quebec is right now). Actually, the U.S. IS getting some of both, given that the Federation is keeping prices high (at least before the exchange rate kicks in) and non-regulation with the ability to grow at whatever rate you like....and the stability of supply and price. The difference is that we (U.S.) don't have to pay for it.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Absolutely correct on both points. Realistically, even if they wanted to, the bulk buyers probably don't have a large enough line of credit with their bankers to buy ALL the syrup that was produced this year, thus they are buying from producers they have an established long-term relationship with first, and might buy from others later as sales occur.

You can't ask the government to regulate the big buyers and expect they'll leave the small buyers alone. You are either going to get free markets and the competition that comes with it (pretty much the situation in the U.S. right now), or controlled markets (government or trade group) and the regulation and forced costs that come with it (the way Quebec is right now). Actually, the U.S. IS getting some of both, given that the Federation is keeping prices high (at least before the exchange rate kicks in) and non-regulation with the ability to grow at whatever rate you like....and the stability of supply and price. The difference is that we (U.S.) don't have to pay for it.

This agrees with what Bruce Bascom was saying at the Leader open house. The price might be lower than it was a couple years ago but the decline has been moderated by the Federation. A banner year like this would have seen the price drop by $1.00 a pound in the past (which might really hurt some producers) and then likewise a short year would see a big spike (which might drive value added companies to replace maple with other ingredients).

As with any systems, improvements can be made but we should be careful what we ask for.

[adk1]

I believe he says he brought syrup to sell not bought.......

In our area market is flooded not because of the big guys. There are probably 20-30 producers in our area and every year more are popping up. I find it harder every year to retail syrup and the price is getting weaker. I'd love to make more but have a hard enough time selling what I make now. I'm not big enough to sell in bulk.guess I need to invest in some glasses!

[Tigermaple]

OK it still doesn't add up. The Federation set 2.95. before the bumper crop. Most of the US buyers paying 2.20 since late January. The CAD/USD has risen over 15% in this time, just about where it was last year. The math says the US price should be roughly $2.35. Now 2.20 is hard to find. Am I missing something?

[wdchuck]

Prices paid for commodity products generally move down quicker than they move up. Why pay $2.35 when you can pay $2.10 and its still being brought in for sale? The packers aint no fools....

[Parker]

When the packers buy can. Syrup do they pay the trucking from canada? Seems like they would but i dont know?

[southfork]

Great posts General and Dr. Perkins.

[MapleMark753]

I think its perfectly normal to be mad if "your guy" has all he needs and turns you away, or pays a lower price than you expected. But, that's business in a lot of areas. What is a solution that the starter of this thread thinks is realistic? Association "pressure"? Some sort of government action? I'm not asking sarcastically, just wondering who "they" is, and then what "they" should do. I know its possible govt action CAN be good or neutral, but my thoughts are that once in, the tendency to mess stuff up is great, and then once laws/regulations start its downhill from there. Just my opinion.
take care, Mark

[ennismaple]

If you rely on open market prices to sell your syrup in bulk you will have to live with the fluctuations when there's an oversupply. If you have your own regular customers and retail outlets to sell your product then it doesn't matter much if the bulk price drops - it benefits you if you need to buy syrup. Anyone NOT in Quebec benefits from the bulk price stability that the Federation has created through their quota system. The last thing any of us want is another government/Federation inspector showing up at our door saying we can't sell a gallon jug of syrup to our friends, family and co-workers.

A free market isn't perfect but it is far better than the over-control of a marketing board!

[unc23win]

Well said ennismaple.

For me it is interesting to think about the big guys expanding I suspect that those that wish to continuing expanding will do so no matter what the season was like. Most have to be in it for the long haul and some will simply expand to try to make whatever amount they desire either in $ or gallons of syrup. Probably not much different than what most of us are doing just on a larger scale.

[CBOYER]

...The last thing any of us want is another government/Federation inspector showing up at our door saying we can't sell a gallon jug of syrup to our friends, family and co-workers.

A free market isn't perfect but it is far better than the over-control of a marketing board!

The Federation is not involved in selling directly to customer (users) in less than 5 liters containers, at the farm or local public market.

[802maple]

I have been saying for years that this was coming, but continuously I was told that markets were bigger than production. Some of you know that I manage the booth down to the Big E for Vermont Maple and had asked many to come down to help out in promoting maple. Yet I was often told that it was to long a day to come down and promote our wonderful product. There are a huge percentage of people right here in New England that have never tasted Maple and yet it seems it is to hard to help promote it. A huge year comes along and it is everybody's fault but our own.

[PARKER MAPLE]

I have been saying for years that this was coming, but continuously I was told that markets were bigger than production. Some of you know that I manage the booth down to the Big E for Vermont Maple and had asked many to come down to help out in promoting maple. Yet I was often told that it was to long a day to come down and promote our wonderful product. There are a huge percentage of people right here in New England that have never tasted Maple and yet it seems it is to hard to help promote it. A huge year comes along and it is everybody's fault but our own.
Well said
Couldn't agree more

[325abn]

I am sure most of us have our ideas on the promotion of our product maybe some don't agree that the big E is worth while.

[wiam]

I am sure most of us have our ideas on the promotion of our product maybe some don't agree that the big E is worth while.

So please tell us the right way.

[BreezyHill]

Having had a booth for our feed mill at our county fair since 1987 and 10 years at another fair; fairs are a great location to get a captive audience for marketing. Yes the days are long. For our county fair my day starts at 6 am and often ends at the following 1 am. Those that stay at the fair grounds get alittle more sleep but it is still along day for all of our crew. But when you can have an 85%increase in business from that one week it is well worth it. If my sugar house qas 300' to the east I would come and help you out for a day.

There are plenty of producers that could come and spend a half day and spread the knowledge of our products. We have shown at the Big E a few times and it is a lot of people going thru the sate buildings. Endless lines last time we were there.

Keep up the good work!

Marketing is different for most but their is nothing like a free taste sample. We plan on doing that at our Booth to promote our maple this season.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Ben,
Did you help out at the New York State Fair Booth?

[DaveB]

The problem with local and state fairs here is that we are preaching to the choir - people that already know about maple syrup. They might learn a fact or too but it doesn't necessarily expand the market. 75% of the country thinks of "aunt jemina" or "log cabin" as maple syrup. I always get funny faces when I travel and ask if a restaurant uses real maple syrup. It's usually not but most of the time they say yes! If we were to tap into that market, I think that would go a long way to expanding the use of maple syrup. Before we can do that, people need to know there is a difference and that's not something that we as individual producers can do. That requires coordination between the associations.

[PerryFamily]

I would love to see more marketing from the state association level and would gladly pay more annually to help support this. What does the VMSMA do for national marketing? A couple years ago when I was a member I emailed them looking for literature to go along with syrup at an inn. I got zero response from anyone. You can find more on Facebook than they have. And although I think it's a noble cause, fighting the big guys like Quaker and others to use real syrup or change their labels has got to cost a significant amount of money? Money that could definitely be used to promote something that we are all so passionate about

[maplwrks]

Unfortunately, most maple producers don't think it is their responsibility to contribute for promotion. 95% of the syrup made in VT. is sold to packers, and producers feel that the packers need to do the promoting. I'm with 802 on this one, if you get out of your small world here in Vt., you will find that there is a lot of folks right in New England that have never had syrup before. I would love to see a marketing order put in place to spread the burden of marketing to all sugarmakers. I think all of us could afford a 1/4 cent per pound levy on our syrup to pay for a national marketing plan. On this years crop, it would generate a half million dollars for promotion, more than 10 times what the VMSMA spends on promotion a year now.
Until something is done such as this we can expect things to stay pretty much the same. End of rant!!

[DrTimPerkins]

Unfortunately, most maple producers don't think it is their responsibility to contribute for promotion.

.....or research.

[BreezyHill]

Ben,
Did you help out at the New York State Fair Booth?

No I have not. Our county fair runs during NYSF. I do how ever have two of our crew at Morrisville State College just down the road and they have done other activities at the fair grounds over the last three years; so if I am contacted, I can get them to joyously help out. Both have Ag Business degrees already so it would be a great shared learning experience I am sure.

But on the other hand no other producers come and help us out at our booth at our fair for the week from 9am to 10 pm. So if you county all 52 county fairs plus the state fair making 53 Breezy Hill took care of 2% of the fairs of the state...pretty good amount for a single producer.

We have ben asked to have a sap ladd3er demo but we don't really have the space for that this year but 2017 will be different story.

[madmapler]

My 2 cents is this. 1) If there are people who live in this region who haven't tasted syrup yet then it's not likely they're going to be enlightened to any great degree. It's kinda like beating a dead horse although it wouldn't be right not to have maples presence in the VT. building at the big E. 2) There is a tremendous untapped market in other areas of the country. I'm not just speculating here. My wife, from Georgia, did some fact finding down there a few years ago. Many of the store's carry table syrup made by the 3 witches along with fruit flavored syrups but no maple at all. If you can't find it, you can't buy it. She also visited several shops in the area who showed enthusiasm about selling our products. (No time for pursuing at this point) We also have missionary friends who live in Chile. Maple syrup hasn't even been heard of down there. The only way they(our friends) can get it is from us. Granted, not everyone can afford it but there is a substantial population who could and would were they to be introduced to its flavor and health benefits.

[GeneralStark]

I think one of the fundamental issues is that maple products are expensive for many folks. I often get asked why maple syrup is so much more expensive than "table syrup" (high fructose corn syrup). This often leads to an explanation regarding subsidies and how the corn industry is highly subsidized and has the lobbyists to make sure that is the case.

Maybe the maple industry just needs some highly paid lobbyists to convince our representatives that maple syrup should be subsidized in the same way that the corn syrup industry is, so maple could better compete for a larger market share.

[DaveB]

I think one of the fundamental issues is that maple products are expensive for many folks. I often get asked why maple syrup is so much more expensive than "table syrup" (high fructose corn syrup). This often leads to an explanation regarding subsidies and how the corn industry is highly subsidized and has the lobbyists to make sure that is the case.

Maybe the maple industry just needs some highly paid lobbyists to convince our representatives that maple syrup should be subsidized in the same way that the corn syrup industry is, so maple could better compete for a larger market share.

Or, perhaps we can remove the subsidies from the corn syrup industry and be allowed to compete on a level playing field. I don't think we should play a game of "if they have a subsidy, we should too".

I get the same questions from people when we are selling outside of New England but once they know how much more of a quality and healthier sweetener that maple is, they will buy it. We just need to build awareness.

[mudr]

.....or research.

Dr. Tim- What research opportunities are out there for small- or medium-sized producers such as myself to get involved in? As a ecologist and proud nerd, I have plans to do some small scale data collection (DBH, BAI, tracking sugar % when time comes, etc.) on my plantation I just started, but are there opportunities for us to get involved in larger, region-wide collaborative studies? This would be a great way for producers to advance the industry in addition to general education and promotion.

[GeneralStark]

Or, perhaps we can remove the subsidies from the corn syrup industry and be allowed to compete on a level playing field. I don't think we should play a game of "if they have a subsidy, we should too".

I get the same questions from people when we are selling outside of New England but once they know how much more of a quality and healthier sweetener that maple is, they will buy it. We just need to build awareness.

I totally agree and am in no way in favor of any sort of subsidies. I should have used the sarcasm emoji after my last statement.

[WestfordSugarworks]

Really interesting conversations! I would be happy to pay a small per pound price for marketing and research (although I'm not the one who runs the business, my dad is). I do hope that VMSMA develops their marketing strategies. The world has billions of people, many of which CAN afford maple syrup. We just need to reach them.

Although I've only been in the maple world for a few years, I believe (perhaps naively) that maple is very easy to market. I could list off 10 things in a row to a potential buyer about the advantages of maple over other sweeteners. The price is another issue.

I was down in Florida visiting my grandparents and stopped by a side of the road farmstand that sells Organic produce and meats. I chatted with the owner for a few minutes and then asked if she would like to sell maple syrup. I just sent her down a box of half pints and I'm hoping that she will do well and order more. I think if producers had the time and resources, it could be a very good idea to load up a van with syrup, drive outside the maple producing region, and meet business owners and individuals and market syrup. We all (I assume) are family-run businesses who take great care and work hard to produce a great product. We can manage our woods to produce sap for years in a sustainable fashion. The environmental impact of sugaring is low compared to sweetener production like high fructose corn syrup. Tout all this!

I've thought of just sitting down some afternoon and searching health food stores in non-maple producing regions. Maybe you call and ask if they sell syrup. If not, write them a letter introducing yourself and your product and send them a pint. Try it with 10 stores. Maybe some show interest, maybe not. Obviously the cost of shipping becomes an issue, but you'd be better off developing some kind of retail market instead of relying on the bulk market.

I canned a lot of syrup a few weeks ago- probably more than we could normally sell. My thinking is I will just pack up my car and head south with syrup if we have excess. Make a road trip out of it. I think it will work. Again, maybe i'm naive about all of this.

[ennismaple]

The Federation is not involved in selling directly to customer (users) in less than 5 liters containers, at the farm or local public market.

Thank you for clarifying. I thought you could only sell in the 540mL cans and were not able to go to farmer's markets. We've all read the articles about the producers who have tried to sell outside of the Federation and as a result the Federation has posted security guards at their sugar camps to make sure all the syrup they make is accounted for.

Are Quebec producers allowed to sell a few cases of syrup to a local grocery store at wholesale price for the store to retail?

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim- What research opportunities are out there for small- or medium-sized producers such as myself to get involved in?

Totally different question/thread.

[802maple]

Some feel that the Big-E is a waste of time, but when you see anywhere from 75,000 to 175,000 go through your building everyday for 17 days and nearly 20 percent of them have never tasted syrup. I have to beg to differ.

So please tell us the right way.

[wiam]

Some feel that the Big-E is a waste of time, but when you see anywhere from 75,000 to 175,000 go through your building everyday for 17 days and nearly 20 percent of them have never tasted syrup. I have to beg to differ.

Jerry, my comment was not aimed at you. And you know I will be back at the Big-E when the other job will allow.

[motowbrowne]

Dr. Tim- What research opportunities are out there for small- or medium-sized producers such as myself to get involved in? As a ecologist and proud nerd, I have plans to do some small scale data collection (DBH, BAI, tracking sugar % when time comes, etc.) on my plantation I just started, but are there opportunities for us to get involved in larger, region-wide collaborative studies? This would be a great way for producers to advance the industry in addition to general education and promotion.

I think Dr. Tim meant financial contributions, not actual participation, but I could be wrong. I certainly don't mean to put words in the good doctor's mouth. I think that as in most ag sectors, producers are reluctant to part with cash dollars for research, even though it may be beneficial in the long run.

[802maple]

I know it wasn't, I just got trigger happy on the quote button. hehe

Jerry, my comment was not aimed at you. And you know I will be back at the Big-E when the other job will allow.

[CBOYER]

Thank you for clarifying. I thought you could only sell in the 540mL cans and were not able to go to farmer's markets. We've all read the articles about the producers who have tried to sell outside of the Federation and as a result the Federation has posted security guards at their sugar camps to make sure all the syrup they make is accounted for.

Are Quebec producers allowed to sell a few cases of syrup to a local grocery store at wholesale price for the store to retail?

Producers that had security guard supposely sells over 200,000 lbs of syrup in small container to local market....:o

No if you dont have a Quota you cannot sell to any retailer. If you have quota, those few case will be included in it.

For each pound of syrup, producer paid 12¢ to the Fed.

2.5¢ for Administration
4¢ for inventory management (The Reserve)
4.75¢ for Promotion and Research
0.75¢ for Quality inspection (grading)

I think for 2015 (or 2016?) that another 2¢ is added for promotion, that mean the deduction is now 14¢

At final, the producer receive $2.81 $C. per pound, could be paid at75% in autumn, and wait
sometimesup to 5 years to had the final payment.

[CBOYER]

and a nice statistic for your discussion:

Maple syrup consumption per capita in 2014

Québec 728 ml / capita

Other Canadian Provinces 247 ml / capita

USA 80ml / capita

Now work on it !

[wiam]

I know I make up for several of my country men.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think Dr. Tim meant financial contributions, not actual participation, but I could be wrong. I certainly don't mean to put words in the good doctor's mouth. I think that as in most ag sectors, producers are reluctant to part with cash dollars for research, even though it may be beneficial in the long run.

Different discussion....but yes, that is what I meant.

[Tater]

Maple syrup consumption per capita in 2014

Québec 728 ml / capita
Other Canadian Provinces 247 ml / capita
USA 80ml / capita

Now work on it !

Those numbers certainly look great, but how much of the story are they really telling. I'll bet the vast majority of Québec's population lives within driving distance of a maple producer. Here in Virginia, few people know anything about how maple syrup is made, even if they do know what it is. Being close by, as well as "supporting the locals," is a major form of marketing. Few people in the States live anywhere near a maple producer. The logistics of selling to a market far away from the source make it difficult, particularly for a product that is already at a cost disadvantage. Besides, that number could likely be skewed quite a bit just by the producers themselves (I'm probably over 500 ml just this year, and it's just the beginning of May!) A more accurate comparison would be Vermont vs Québec consumption.

Also, how accurate are those numbers? The Federation tracks everything. Quotas cannot be enforced without accurate tracking. In the States, there is much less reason for such tracking (unless maybe it exists and I as a backyard producer who just makes syrup for personal consumption haven't seen it).

Numbers are interesting, but take them with a spoonful of syrup.

[bairdswift]

Your opioion is worth more then most... Keep it coming!! Same for Parker. It takes all kinds of people, no reason to be shy to save someone else's perspective over yours.

[mountainvan]

I give credit to any size maple operation. It's a lot of work to make the stuff. The big guys have added more marketing of maple, at least in my area, which is great. As long as they're honest with what they say, but that was a different topic.
There is a huge untapped, ha get it, market for maple in the US. Traveling with maple works,I've done it, but there are local peddling laws. You don't want trouble with the po po. Some guys drive for hours to get to NYC, or other large urban area,several times a week for markets.they make top dollar but spend a lot of time on maple year round. Some are lucky enough to have strong local farm markets, grocery stores that want locally produced maple, or lots of tourists with money burning a hole in their pockets. then there's internet sales, but that's a whole different animal. I think most guys are in the boonies and bulk is their main option.
I see a couple ways for the guys who are kinda stuck with selling bulk to get more for their syrup. I'm just thinking here by the way. Doctors orders not to do anything else, even drink beer. ( my wife is smuggling in beer tonight, I'm a lucky man).
First, get everyone together and tell the packers you want more. Basically a USA maple Union. Collective bargaining. Now I know that's probably not going to work, because there's almost always a couple guys that do things their way and tell everyone else to piss off.It may be worth discussion though within the various official maple organizations.
Second, start a joint packing operation and set you're own price. I know the guys in upper Pretty much Canada New York have discussed it, but I haven't heard that it has happened.
I understand that the federation is big and sets the price, but they are organized. Why producers in the US can't do the same is an quandary. Maybe it's our live free or die, down with the king, piss off selves that is our own obstacle to getting er done.
Anyho, hats off to anyone who even tries to make maple. You have to be able to overcome Apollo 13 moments everyday, and stay slightly sane. That takes a special bred of crazy.

[Hop Kiln Road]

A lot of wishful thinking out there, General. The demographics make maple look like an easy sell and ripe for double digit annual growth. But then compare the margins in bottled water versus milk. And it is relatively simple to produce bottled water. The global food distribution infrastructure is tightly controlled and highly regulated. The lowest cost product is worthless if the producer doesn't own the access to the system thus the shelf. Maple has never been able to penetrate this system. All the big, new players attempting vertical integration appear to be built ultimately for resale.
Even if the 2017 season is below average, and statistically it shouldn't be, the bulk price will only continue to weaken for a long list of reasons. Moreover, we have a Globalist and an Isolationist vying for President, historically a typical American match up. But both their avowed policies, although polar opposites, will damage the bulk price of American maple. So if you don't like $2.10 now, just wait a year, or, go talk to any other commodity producer.

[mudr]

I give credit to any size maple operation. It's a lot of work to make the stuff. The big guys have added more marketing of maple, at least in my area, which is great. As long as they're honest with what they say, but that was a different topic.
There is a huge untapped, ha get it, market for maple in the US. Traveling with maple works,I've done it, but there are local peddling laws. You don't want trouble with the po po. Some guys drive for hours to get to NYC, or other large urban area,several times a week for markets.they make top dollar but spend a lot of time on maple year round. Some are lucky enough to have strong local farm markets, grocery stores that want locally produced maple, or lots of tourists with money burning a hole in their pockets. then there's internet sales, but that's a whole different animal. I think most guys are in the boonies and bulk is their main option.
I see a couple ways for the guys who are kinda stuck with selling bulk to get more for their syrup. I'm just thinking here by the way. Doctors orders not to do anything else, even drink beer. ( my wife is smuggling in beer tonight, I'm a lucky man).
First, get everyone together and tell the packers you want more. Basically a USA maple Union. Collective bargaining. Now I know that's probably not going to work, because there's almost always a couple guys that do things their way and tell everyone else to piss off.It may be worth discussion though within the various official maple organizations.
Second, start a joint packing operation and set you're own price. I know the guys in upper Pretty much Canada New York have discussed it, but I haven't heard that it has happened.
I understand that the federation is big and sets the price, but they are organized. Why producers in the US can't do the same is an quandary. Maybe it's our live free or die, down with the king, piss off selves that is our own obstacle to getting er done.
Anyho, hats off to anyone who even tries to make maple. You have to be able to overcome Apollo 13 moments everyday, and stay slightly sane. That takes a special bred of crazy.

I assume it has not happened anywhere in the US because it would be pointless. We (US) produce a small fraction of the global maple supply. If the US were to make a "union" and set our own higher price, the packers can still just buy in cheaper syrup from Canada. The only ways I can think the US could prevent this would be to (and there may be others),

1- weaken the US dollar- which would make ALL imports more expensive, gas prices would increase, and we would effectively devaluing our currency much like the asian financial crisis
2- institute protectionist laws or tariffs to protect our producers, which may incite retaliatory laws/tariffs and would hurt our own exports.

[DaveB]

I assume it has not happened anywhere in the US because it would be pointless. We (US) produce a small fraction of the global maple supply. If the US were to make a "union" and set our own higher price, the packers can still just buy in cheaper syrup from Canada. The only ways I can think the US could prevent this would be to (and there may be others),

1- weaken the US dollar- which would make ALL imports more expensive, gas prices would increase, and we would effectively devaluing our currency much like the asian financial crisis
2- institute protectionist laws or tariffs to protect our producers, which may incite retaliatory laws/tariffs and would hurt our own exports.

There's another way you can do it:

1. Produce more syrup in the U.S. (which we traditionally did)
2. Market U.S. produced syrup instead of Canadian syrup

The latter point is a valid one. I get lots of buyers that will buy U.S. syrup over Canadian syrup and I'm sure that would translate nationally.

I wouldn't want to support a union of producers because I would be at the mercy of larger producers who would dominant the union.

[maple flats]

Weaken the US dollar? Our own government does that every day, by printing more money with nothing to back it up.
We just need to develop more markets. The big guys are working on expanding world markets, Europe, Japan, Etc. We should do our part locally. Me, I find the internet works well. I ship all over the country and most years I sell out or nearly out, all at retail. The only bulk I sell is the end of season stuff, either commercial or very dark, which has less of a market.
Today, I have 4 gal going to Kansas. Next week I have 28 half gal to deliver locally to one family who love syrup. It all adds up.

[BAP]

There's another way you can do it:

1. Produce more syrup in the U.S. (which we traditionally did)
2. Market U.S. produced syrup instead of Canadian syrup

The latter point is a valid one. I get lots of buyers that will buy U.S. syrup over Canadian syrup and I'm sure that would translate nationally.

I wouldn't want to support a union of producers because I would be at the mercy of larger producers who would dominant the union.
A third item would be to require point of origin labeling on Maple products so consumers know that the syrup they are buying is actually made in this country. There are many people that would shop differently if they knew the syrup they bought actually originated in Canada not the US.

[ennismaple]

and a nice statistic for your discussion:

Maple syrup consumption per capita in 2014

Québec 728 ml / capita

Other Canadian Provinces 247 ml / capita

USA 80ml / capita

Now work on it !

This is something our provincial association has discussed over the past few years - how do we increase consumption, especially among new Canadians? A small increase per person equals a very large amount of syrup. Even here in Ontario we are a net importer of syrup. What you see in Costco and most large grocery stores comes from Quebec. I can only think of one bulk buyer here in the province and most of the syrup they package gets shipped out. IMO - The lack of bulk buyers has tempered expansion in Ontario because we are not guaranteed to be able to pull up to someone's warehouse with a truckload of syrup and get a cheque in return.

This is a good discussion - nothing wrong with sharing opinions and thoughts. We don't have to agree with each other to have a respectful conversation!

[CBOYER]

This is a good discussion - nothing wrong with sharing opinions and thoughts. We don't have to agree with each other to have a respectful conversation!

Yes but i think that talking protectionism when your inside market could be 10 times more is far away from a solution.

[ennismaple]

What I am saying is far from protectionism. I admire how much syrup Quebecers consume per person and I wish we could get Ontarians to come close to using the same amount of syrup! We have 5.5 million more residents but my math says Quebecers consume twice as much syrup!

The discussions that our association is having is how do we get new immigrants introduced to maple syrup and how do we get people to use it for more than just pancakes. Increasing our own local markets is the best way to ensure our industry is stable long-term. Since you can sell retail direct to the consumer at twice the price as selling it by the pound in a drum the extra effort is worth it, IMO.

[CBOYER]

Sorry Ennismaple, i refer to USA protectionism in previous discussions
For Canada, i'm sure that N.B. and Ont. are good consumer of Maple Syrup, work have to be made on other provinces.

[GeneralStark]

Those numbers certainly look great, but how much of the story are they really telling. I'll bet the vast majority of Québec's population lives within driving distance of a maple producer. Here in Virginia, few people know anything about how maple syrup is made, even if they do know what it is. Being close by, as well as "supporting the locals," is a major form of marketing. Few people in the States live anywhere near a maple producer. The logistics of selling to a market far away from the source make it difficult, particularly for a product that is already at a cost disadvantage. Besides, that number could likely be skewed quite a bit just by the producers themselves (I'm probably over 500 ml just this year, and it's just the beginning of May!) A more accurate comparison would be Vermont vs Québec consumption.

Also, how accurate are those numbers? The Federation tracks everything. Quotas cannot be enforced without accurate tracking. In the States, there is much less reason for such tracking (unless maybe it exists and I as a backyard producer who just makes syrup for personal consumption haven't seen it).

Numbers are interesting, but take them with a spoonful of syrup.

I assume you have never been to Quebec, and forgive me if I am wrong, but if you have you would know how proud the Quebecois are of their traditions. Maple being one of many. They were in fact the first to learn the practice from the natives. Unfortunately for the U.S. we have been mislead into believing the Quebecois are "socialists" and are therefore a lesser society. Especially in the present U.S. political environment.

Any U.S. Maple producer whom has not visited a Cabane a Sucre really should because it really demonstrates how much potential we are missing in terms of marketing of maple. The Quebecois do not see maple syrup as something to put on pancakes but instead it is something to eat with every food group. My first visit to a Cabane a Sucre I was amazed by the creative uses of maple syrup with so many different dishes, and then there was the jug on the table to just pour over everything. The Quebecois love maple syrup. So should Americans as it is a huge part of our nation's history (google Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Rush and Maple) but unfortunately we have been duped into the myth of corn syrup.

[Tater]

GeneralStark, you are correct in your assumption that I have never been to Quebec, yet you actually proved my point. Québec has a culture that includes maple syrup. America (except for a small portion in the northeast) does not. If the only reason Americans don't buy maple syrup is because they see Québécois as socialist, then please explain why we buy so much junk from Communist China.

I would love to make maple syrup one of my main food groups and try it on everything, but even though I make my own, I simply cannot afford to. Maple is part of my culture, but the cost is too high. Local maple syrup is $60/gallon, but other sweetners are 1/10th the price. Most Québécois have maple producers "in their backyard." Maple syrup is abundant, known about, and part of the culture, not to mention substitutes are likely more expensive than here in the States. Here in America, it's much different (yes, I know Canada is technically in the Americas, but you know what I mean). Most people have not grown up with real maple syrup, know nothing about how it is produced, and have been using maple syrup's vastly cheaper alternatives all of their life. Even if they know about it, it's a rare treat or luxury. Trying to penetrate that market is much more difficult than the Québec market.

In America, price is king, hence our enormous trade deficit with China. We have prefected the science of getting all sorts of products or substitutes to the consumer at the lowest price possible. The fact that our markets are often dictated mainly (although not entirely) by price, coupled with the demographics of the people in relation to where syrup is made, means the American per capita consumption will never come close to that of Québec, even with the best of marketing strategies.

Granted, the recent push for natural/organic/local food products is a good start, but it's kinda hard to get local maple syrup in Florida or California. Plus, even this movement represents a tiny fraction of American consumers. No matter which way you slice it, it's going to be hard to market maple syrup to most Americans. If production costs (and therefore retail costs) can be significantly reduced, and more definitive research can prove substantial long-term health benefits, the American market could explode. Otherwise, I think it will continue to be a lot of work to expand the customer base for maple syrup.

[GeneralStark]

Americans busy so much junk from China because.....we are obsessed with cheap. Simple as that. I was merely attempting to elaborate on your suggestion that the statistics CBOYER posted about Quebec's consumption were misleading. They are not...that is my point.

That said, if Americans understood the concept of true costs and externalities they might realize that what they pay at the cash register for consumer products (including food) is only a mere portion of the true cost. If you were to pay the true cost of the "cheap" sweeteners you mention, (remove subsidies and other govt incentives to make costs seem cheap) maple syrup would be much less in cost than cane or corn.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

You need to enter in to this discussion the fact that Quebec has increased its domestic consumption a huge amount in the past few years (almost double if I remember correctly) and this has been through promotion. Preaching to the choir has certainly worked for them.
This has been an interesting discussion. Many valid points introduced. As is often the case, there are no right or wrong answers. Are we flooding the maple syrup market with too much product? In a bumper crop year like this, yes. Is the big commercial producer to blame? Of course but I know many small producers who had their best year ever this year and their extra syrup also adds to the surplus. Do energy grants contribute to increased production? Probably but they also contribute to conservation of resources and cleaner air. Subsidies are strange things. Some we recognize and some we don't. Some of you truck most of your sap and use a public highway system that is constructed with tax dollars. Most of us use that same system to market our products. How many of us are paying the true costs of using this internet system we are on right now. It wasn't free enterprise that figured this out folks, it was your tax dollars at work.
I participate with my local Maple producers association and with the NY association in promoting maple. Last year I volunteered for 17 days to promote maple (this does not include individual shows intended to increase my personal sales). Most local and state associations work hard at promoting maple and the thing that they lack most is you and I to be there to promote our product. Boyer is not suggesting that we all need to consume as much as the people in Quebec, he is saying that we can do better than we are and if we are honest with ourselves we know he is right. The Quebec federation and the big handlers are working to increase sales in areas where maple is not a tradition, both domestically and overseas. It has worked quite well and we all reap the benefits. We all can do more to promote this great product we work so hard at making. We should all be contributing more for both research and promotion. How many of you pay the extra penny per jug for research? How much did you save last year because you did not pay it? What research project that could have benefited you and I went unfunded? Does your state or province still have maple experts in their ag colleges? Do you value the research and extension work they do? Is your state or local maple association seeking help for a few hours to promote your product? Do you have the time?????????

[BreezyHill]

The only cost of an item to the consumer, that they are queued in on, is the cost at the register and this will only be made worse with the emanate increase in minimum wage. They do not have any interest, for the most part, on the health affects and related costs.

Any business person will tell you: Cash Is King. So if you want to market product you need to look at trucking and production costs. Get the sap to the evaporator as inexpensively as you can, maximize your equipments production capacity and fuel the rig as cheaply as possible.

The only way to beat the big guys is to play the same game on a smaller scale.

No reason a small producer cant offer an internship and get good inexpensive labor and use the same loop holes as the big guy.

Take one day out of a family vacation to cultivate a retail sales opportunity in the south or west.

Every small modification to your production system that redues costs and or increases productions is a plus. Get your costs down and compete.

I am lucky my equipment is all paid for and all my sap comes to the sugar house. No need for expensive pumps or a truck to haul sap. Yes it took time and planning to do this but far less than it took to haul sap every day.

If we all spent a few hours a season on making our operation more efficient and a couple of days marketing our gourmet products we would spend less time worrying about what is not in our control and make money instead.

Not far from me there is a 150,000 tap producer with growth plans. They invited me up to look around and chat. I am in no way concerned by the close proximity of their operation. Over the next few years we will double our operation and will still have plenty of market to grow into if the next generation wants to expand off the farm. As we have a sound marketing plan in plan and it is working very well.

A few decades ago the beef industry started the beef check off program. $1 per head was levied on cattle sales. This money has made a difference over the years. I am sure you have all heard, " Where's the Beef?", "Beef, Its what so for dinner". These are all examples of our dollars at work. It is high time for maple to do the same and get some well spent advertising going.

[CBOYER]

You probably know that Federation had made a lot of marketings operation in Japan. They are now at 27ml per capita. This mean that a Japanse eat 1/3 of maple syrup than an american eat (80ml)...

This morning i had a discussion with a friend that is going to japan at end of the month to visit her daughter who is there for education, and first thing that her daughter ask is to bring some Maple syrup, all their local friends ask for...