Homemade releaser questions

[DaveB]

I'm going to need a couple of releasers for next season and I'm trying to figure out the most economical way to do that. One option I'm considering is a homemade one but outside of some ideas, I don't know the best way to go. After I know how complicated/not complicated building one might be, I can decide if building one or buying one is for me!

I know one way is an electric releaser and have a pump that pumps out the sap within and the other is a mechanical releaser that opens a valve using a float.

My main question is - where do I get the parts to build the releaser? Where can I can get a 2' piece of a 10 or 12" pipe? I have some stainless kegs, but I don't know if they are strong enough to support 25" of vacuum. If I go electric, where can I find a stainless steel (food safe) pump? If I go the mechanical route, what do people use for a float that is big enough to release a valve?

Let me start there and then I can ask my follow-up questions - unless someone knows a cheaper route to go.

[unc23win]

I think if I were going to build one I would build an electric one. There are a few traders who have done so Jake Moser is one and I believe Tweegs has built one as well as well some others. As you can see in these videos a booster/transfer tank can be purchased with 0 holes or holes sizes and locations you desire. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=homemade+electric+sap+release r&spfreload=10&scrlybrkr=776fc080

[DaveB]

I think if I were going to build one I would build an electric one. There are a few traders who have done so Jake Moser is one and I believe Tweegs has built one as well as well some others. As you can see in these videos a booster/transfer tank can be purchased with 0 holes or holes sizes and locations you desire. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=homemade+electric+sap+release r&spfreload=10&scrlybrkr=776fc080

I saw some of those but couldn't figure out what people were using for the pump.

OK - maybe a stupid question here but I know some people use dairy releasers. Could I buy something like this:

http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=383

and hook my vacuum pump up to the top and my incoming sap lines on the bottom (blocking off unused ones) and then put the output on the bottom in my holding tank? I'd probably have at most 75-100 taps coming into it.

At $260, that's pretty reasonable to me.

[Tweegs]

No, I didn’t build one.

Thought about it, hit a few road blocks in the design (how to cut a groove for an O-ring on the end of a 12” dia piece of PVC without a really large lathe being the biggest), then came across a good deal on a refurbished unit from LaPierre.

Still exploring options on a homemade unit though, which brought me here.

As for the milk releasers, some can’t take deep vacuum, say over 15”, keep that in mind.
Another option (and someone help me out here) I think it is the Zero (?) tanks that can take up to 20 or so inches without collapsing. No releaser needed, but it won’t be cheap, near the cost of a releaser I would expect.

An electric releaser will require a pump stronger than the vacuum it is subjected to.

There are a few You tubes on homemade releasers. My favorite used a couple of old milk cans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZ-szDK31A

[unc23win]

No, I didn’t build one

Sorry Tweegs I thought you had I know you seem pretty handy with other stuff. My apologies

[DaveB]

As for the milk releasers, some can’t take deep vacuum, say over 15”, keep that in mind.
Another option (and someone help me out here) I think it is the Zero (?) tanks that can take up to 20 or so inches without collapsing. No releaser needed, but it won’t be cheap, near the cost of a releaser I would expect.

An electric releaser will require a pump stronger than the vacuum it is subjected to.

There are a few You tubes on homemade releasers. My favorite used a couple of old milk cans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjZ-szDK31A

Good point about the vacuum on the dairy releaser. I checked with the manufacturer and he indicated that anything more than 15" could damage the unit. I know I can get a regulator and 15" is about the same as what I currently get with my Shurflo's.

I thought about a zero tank but the cost turned me off. That and I'd like to automate the pumping of my tank back to the sugar house and with a zero tank I'd have to turn off the vacuum pump, pump out the tank and then turn it back on.

I have considered the idea of an electric releaser but I don't know what people use for food grade pumps.

I would consider using some stainless kegs that I have but I'm not sure if they can take the vacuum.

[GeneralStark]

The best pumps IMO for an electric releaser are deep-well submersibles, which get pricey pretty quick, but you may be able to find one used. The other challenge is the constant on/off can be hard on the motor which is why in my most recent version I opted for a 3-phase pump controlled by a VFD. The motor slowly speeds up and then slowly slows down. Then there is the fact that some submersibles have oil sealed bearing which as they wear can release oil into the sap.

[Moser's Maple]

Tim Meeth (tmeeth) was the member that I got my idea from in building the releaser

[lpakiz]

I need to throw my two cents worth in here about mechanical dairy releasers. By that, I mean the Bender units that hang on the wall of the milk house and pull milk from the step-saver tank in the barn aisle into the milk room and release it by gravity into the tank. Something like the link Dave posted to Hamby Dairy Supply. Not the units that use an electric pump to pull milk from a sealed jar.
I used a Bender for several years. They will function OK past 21 inches HG with minor modification. This is nothing more than adding more weight on the float rod so the float rod will be able to pull away from the vacuum source at the end of the dump.
The bad news is, they are a vacuum waster. I used mine with a Surge SP-11 piston pump and a 3.5 HP gas engine on 200 taps. Back then, 22 inches HG was cause for celebration. When I exchanged the Bender for a good releaser, vacuum jumped to 27-28. Same pump, same engine, same lines, same trees.
They are a low-dollar way to get into vacuum. So if you are interested in a Bender, I have several to sell.

[Tweegs]

No apology needed, Jared.
Didn’t want to take credit for something I didn’t do.

Electronics is my bag, mechanical…not so much.

Fortunately, I married an Aerospace engineer.
She keeps me reigned in on the mechanical stuff (actually, on many levels, truth be told :lol:)

[MT Pockets Producer]

I'm going to need a couple of releasers for next season and I'm trying to figure out the most economical way to do that. One option I'm considering is a homemade one but outside of some ideas, I don't know the best way to go. After I know how complicated/not complicated building one might be, I can decide if building one or buying one is for me!

I know one way is an electric releaser and have a pump that pumps out the sap within and the other is a mechanical releaser that opens a valve using a float.

My main question is - where do I get the parts to build the releaser? Where can I can get a 2' piece of a 10 or 12" pipe? I have some stainless kegs, but I don't know if they are strong enough to support 25" of vacuum. If I go electric, where can I find a stainless steel (food safe) pump? If I go the mechanical route, what do people use for a float that is big enough to release a valve?

Let me start there and then I can ask my follow-up questions - unless someone knows a cheaper route to go.

Below is a thread that we modeled our home built mechanical releasers after. We have built two of these and have been pleased. For floats we used stainless steel containers that would be used in your kitchen for a cookie jar or sugar/ flour storage. We punched a hole in the top and bottom with a body punch, made a sleeve with pvc water pipe and threaded fittings on that with o- rings to seal it. $5 dollars for the container at Ollie's Bargain Outlet and a couple of bucks for fittings. As far as large diameter pipe for the releaser goes we used 10 inch inside diameter pvc water line supplied by a brother in law that is in the construction business. Very thick walled and easy to thread. Capped both ends with 1/2 inch plexi and an o- ring. If you know anyone in that business they may be a good source. I picked up another section of pipe recently when driving by a waterline project near home. I saw a 2 foot piece on the ground and asked about it and they were glad to get rid of it so they did not have to carry it to the dumpster. Haynes built a releaser setup with kegs so he may be able to answer your question regarding vac levels that they can withstand. If I had a choice of mechanical or electric I would certainly choose electric. These releaser work good and we are able to pull 26-27" of vac consistently but are not nearly as efficient as the electric releaser. Rather lengthy cycle times with small cfm pumps. On one we use a small 2.5 CFM A/C pump and the other is a Gast 1550. The 1550 cycles much quicker than the A/C pump.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?17317-Homemade-Releaser

[DaveB]

Thanks for the link. I did read through that thread but I didn't want to respond with my questions to an old thread.

With the vacuum limitations of the dairy releasers I'm thinking about some other options. One of my limitations is the availability of a 10 or 12" pipe but I'm wondering why I couldn't use a smaller pipe - something that's available at a local home center. I see that I can get a 4" pipe. If I had a 2' tall 4" pipe, would that be sufficient? Does it have to be a wider pipe? I would have no more than 75 taps going into each releaser.

Using the suggestion about using some stainless bowls as the float, I found some 3.5" bowls (http://www.amazon.com/Oggi-3-Inch-Diameter-Stainless-Airtight/dp/B002UA4MNY) that I could seal together and drill a hole through to mount on a shaft or dowel or something.

If I'm going to build something, I would have a few questions:

Would the lift of the bowls be enough to open a valve?

Most of the designs I have seen have the shaft going through the top of the releaser. How do you ensure an air tight seal to prevent a vacuum leak where the shaft goes through the cover?

As the float rises and opens a flap or valve on the bottom, is the weight of the sap enough to drain out and thus lower the float and close the flap or do I need to vent air in at the top as well?

I've seen a few mentions of a check valve on the input from the trees. Do you use spring loaded check valves or not?

[wiam]

I would be tempted to use this check valve for a mechanical. http://www.webbsonline.com/Item/PVC-Swing-Check-Valves-70374?gclid=CJCE3Zjh_bYCFQSCQgodnzwAnw But if electric was available I would lean toward that option.

[mellondome]

Mechanical needs to have a way to vent the vac to release the sap. 4" pipe will be tight to get a float that will work for manual with enough weight and buoyancy to overcome high vac. 4" also doesnt leave much for pump options for electrical releaser. You can find bigger diameter pipe through local contractors that do sewer and water lines.

[DaveB]

I would be tempted to use this check valve for a mechanical. http://www.webbsonline.com/Item/PVC-Swing-Check-Valves-70374?gclid=CJCE3Zjh_bYCFQSCQgodnzwAnw But if electric was available I would lean toward that option.

Thanks for the check valve suggestion.

I could run electric down there at a cost but the problem is the pump. I'm trying to find a reasonable medium between a commercial mechanical releaser (about $950 new, $700 used) and building something. Between the pipe, pump, running electric my time, etc., I'm pretty close to a used commercial mechanical releaser. I actually need three units to replace what I have with the Shurflo locations so I'm trying to keep my costs down.

[MT Pockets Producer]

Mechanical needs to have a way to vent the vac to release the sap. 4" pipe will be tight to get a float that will work for manual with enough weight and buoyancy to overcome high vac. 4" also doesnt leave much for pump options for electrical releaser. You can find bigger diameter pipe through local contractors that do sewer and water lines.

I concur with mellondome. We started with a 4 " pvc float in the larger diameter pipe and had a hard time overcoming the high vac. When we switched to the 6 " stainless float it was much better. The larger float is much more buoyant allowing it to overcome the high vac. A smaller float in a smaller cylinder may act proportionally but I am not sure. The size of the vent hole is important also. We used a 3/8 hole with the releaser on our smaller pump with a 1 1/2 swing valve for the bottom and in it releases 3-4 gallons in about 5 seconds. On the larger pump we used a 2" swing valve for the bottom and had to go with a 5/8 vent hole due to more CFMs pulling on the releaser. We are using the same swing valves that wiam suggested (with no spring)on both the bottom of the releaser for dumping and between the releaser and main line. Just be aware that the flapper will be restricted by ice during freezing temps. If you run your pump around the clock it probably won't be a concern. But if you shut down while below freezing have a heat gun or propane torch available to thaw the valves out when you fire things up. We haven't used shurflo pumps so I can only compare our performance to what I have read, and I am not sure if you keep track of gallons per tap on your current set up. My point being, wether you go with mechanical vs electric will your production be better than the shurflo regardless of which option you choose? We do not run around the clock unless the temps are in favor of production due to the fact that we are on gas operated pumps. Getting up in the middle of the night is not conducive to working a 12 hour shift at the paying job. Our numbers this year are as follows , 20 gallons of sap per tap on the smaller pump and 23 GPT on the larger pump. If these numbers are acceptable and better than your current set up then mechanical of this style may be a good option. There is no doubt our numbers would have been better on electric but outside of not being an option for us, money is always a concern while designing a setup. You could always upgrade as time and profits allow. It would be very easy to convert the mechanical releaser to electric. Any holes can be threaded and plugged with ease.

[DaveB]

I found a seller on ebay that appear to sell pipe length by the foot (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Any-Size-Diameter-PVC-Pipe-Sch-40-or-80-1-4-24-Inch-/131335265195?var=&hash=item1e94311bab:m:mJM5htKPofk72gMMxbNjUaw). A 10"x24" pipe would would be $88. That still leaves the question of the pump. I know that people use well pumps but I haven't seen any specific recommendations or a pump that costs less than $500. The Shurflo has a maximum head of 100' so I'm wondering if I connected that to a valve on the bottom of the unit if it could suck the sap out or if I would still need a relief valve on the top?

I appreciate everyone's input!

[tmessier79]

" by Ipakiz - They are a low-dollar way to get into vacuum. So if you are interested in a Bender, I have several to sell"

I tried to pm you, but your box is full. Do you still have bender Releaser for sale?

[DaveB]

I was talking with a mechanical engineer friend about this and I'm wondering about a hybrid electric/mechanical solution. What if I were to put a hi/lo switch in a pipe and had it control solenoid valves at the top and bottom so they would simultaneously open. Would that drop the sap in the pipe out? I would put third valve that would close on the incoming sap line or use a check valve. I'm thinking that is the same as using a float that opens a flat on the bottom and a vent on the top.

[MT Pockets Producer]

I had considered something similar on a 12 volt system but ran out of time and figured I would need spare electronics on hand in case of failure. If my thoughts are correct you would only need to electrically control one valve to release the vacuum. The dump valve and the mainline check valve could remain mechanical and still work fine. I think a timer or controller activated by on and off floats/switches would be required. I have read a few threads where others have dabbled with this type of setup but am not sure what kind of luck they had. Some of the homebuit electrics are controlled similarly but are activating the pump rather than a valve.

[ryebrye]

I was talking with a mechanical engineer friend about this and I'm wondering about a hybrid electric/mechanical solution. What if I were to put a hi/lo switch in a pipe and had it control solenoid valves at the top and bottom so they would simultaneously open. Would that drop the sap in the pipe out? I would put third valve that would close on the incoming sap line or use a check valve. I'm thinking that is the same as using a float that opens a flat on the bottom and a vent on the top.

Yes, I have done this. I used a 3-way solenoid valve to do it. I have two float switches (high and low) and it cycles in about 5 seconds.

I have a long thread on sugarbush.info where I was discussing it as I was building it.

I controlled it with a raspberry pi and some software I wrote.

If your electrical connections are fine properly it works very reliably. I only had problems when some connections were not great - I switched to using scotchlok connections and it solved the problems.

As a bonus I also have the pump running off of a relay controlled by the raspberry pi and another float switch on the moisture trap that I can have cut power when sap gets in the moisture trap (and I can turn the pump on / off remotely)

It keeps track of sap volume as it dumps sap and generates graphs etc too.

[wiam]

You could use one of these top and bottom of your chamber to open/close a three way valve. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Water-Level-Sensor-Horizontal-Float-Switch-For-Aquariums-Fish-Tank-Pool-/311231357646?nav=SEARCH Probably would need relays depending depending on valve. I have one of these on my RO wash tank so the water heater won't burn up if the water is low. I would connect the 3 way valve so the chamber is connected to vacuum source or switch to atmosphere.

[Bricklayer]

Yes, I have done this. I used a 3-way solenoid valve to do it. I have two float switches (high and low) and it cycles in about 5 seconds.

I have a long thread on sugarbush.info where I was discussing it as I was building it.

I controlled it with a raspberry pi and some software I wrote.

If your electrical connections are fine properly it works very reliably. I only had problems when some connections were not great - I switched to using scotchlok connections and it solved the problems.

As a bonus I also have the pump running off of a relay controlled by the raspberry pi and another float switch on the moisture trap that I can have cut power when sap gets in the moisture trap (and I can turn the pump on / off remotely)

It keeps track of sap volume as it dumps sap and generates graphs etc too.

I'm looking at building a releaser using two 12 volt float switches and relays.
Basically bottom float switch will turn power on, then when the top float switch trips it will latch a relay and power a solonoid valve to allow atmosphere in. Solonoid stays open until bottom float bottoms out and power is cut to delatch relay closing atmosphere valve.
I can't seem to find a 1" 3 way solonoid valve anywhere. I wanted to use a 3 way so that vacuum would be shut off while it's dumping. If I just let it free flow and install a check valve on the wet line combining into the releaser will it still dump or will I be better off using 2 solonoid valves and have the dry line vacuum be shut off by separate valve while unit is vented to atmosphere and dumping.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

Bricklayer

Did you ever get your releaser built? I'm building a 12v electric releaser and was wondering if you ever found a 3 way solenoid or what you used.

Chad