I want to upgrade..Isnt there anyone looking to do the same

[awpoolco]

This year I went from 35 taps to nearly 200. my tiny little hobby arch just aint cutting it. I would like a 2x6 can anyone help me out?

[Mike's Sugar Shack]

I was in the same spot as you. Now i am on my second evaporator it is a 2x6 and it is not big enough i started with 50 taps and am now up to 830 taps. I would go with a 2x8 that way you wish you went bigger when you are boiling for 12 hrs. If you are like all of us you will be looking for more taps.

[awpoolco]

I was in the same spot as you. Now i am on my second evaporator it is a 2x6 and it is not big enough i started with 50 taps and am now up to 830 taps. I would go with a 2x8 that way you wish you went bigger when you are boiling for 12 hrs. If you are like all of us you will be looking for more taps.


Haha, but I get that. It seems simple when you look at what you just proposed. I want a 2x6 and you want bugger. As soon as you buy then I will buy yours. My timber will only produce 800 taps and that is what I want for my retirement gig. I want to stay right at the old Homestead. No trucking for me. Let me know what your plans are.

[maineboiler]

One down side to going too big on the evaporator without enough taps is that you will have trouble keeping the pans full if you don't have enough sap--

[awpoolco]

One down side to going too big on the evaporator without enough taps is that you will have trouble keeping the pans full if you don't have enough sap--

I did have that in the back of my mind too. I passed on a 2x5 raised flue as I felt i might have to upgrade again later and I would rather try to size right the first time. Dropping some coin this summer to start the brand new sugarhouse. Again, I dont want to undersize the actual boiler room itself and was thinking 2x6 raised flue evaporator, 12x16 with a concrete floor and a sales room addition planned as phase II. Do you all think it would be large enough? max 800 taps probably 600 on shurflo and 200 either buckets or gravity.

[Tater]

If you figure 2gpt per day, 800 taps could produce 1600 gallons of sap. If you remove 3/4 of the water with an RO, you would have 400 gallons of concetrate to boil, which could be accomplished in 10 hours at 40gph. If you run higher % concentrate or tweak that 2x6 over 40gph, you can shorten that even more, so a 2x6 could keep up with 800 taps (and possibly more). Of course, that assumes you have that much time or can/want to use an RO.

I'm told longer evaporators are more efficient. Also, a 2x8 would allow you to expand more before you get an RO, and would have a better chance of keeping up if RO goes down. It seems inefficient to me to spend money on a 2x6 if you plan to eventually get a 2x8 (unless you get a good deal on a used 2x6). Now if you plan to skip the RO and eventually have a 3x10, that might change things.

If I could expand from 200 to 800 taps on my property, I'd definitely go with a 2x8. If I could tap more trees, I wouldn't let my evaporator dictate how many taps I have. A new 2x8 isn't that much more than a 2x6 (although used could be a different story).

[Mitchman]

Hey awpoolco, I have a 12 x16, plenty for my operation, but if I was to show people and have a sales room, I would have a 16 x 20. No concrete floor, hard on the legs all day and costly. My cedar shingle mill has one, and we have mats and rugs at all the work stations. Beef up your floor framing if you need extra support, hope this helps

[motowbrowne]

For 600 on vacuum and 200 buckets, you must be looking at an RO in front of that 2x6, even though you haven't said that. Personally, for that many taps I'd skip the RO and get a bigger rig, but that's just me.

Even with an RO, I'd want something more like a 3x10 than a 2x6. Don't make the same mistake I did and build your cook shack around an evaporator that ended up being too small. Boiling all day is fun, but not all day every day. I've pulled some 16 hour days on my 2x10 and it gets really old, especially when you've got to get up and do it again the next day.

[awpoolco]

For 600 on vacuum and 200 buckets, you must be looking at an RO in front of that 2x6, even though you haven't said that. Personally, for that many taps I'd skip the RO and get a bigger rig, but that's just me.

Even with an RO, I'd want something more like a 3x10 than a 2x6. Don't make the same mistake I did and build your cook shack around an evaporator that ended up being too small. Boiling all day is fun, but not all day every day. I've pulled some 16 hour days on my 2x10 and it gets really old, especially when you've got to get up and do it again the next day.

This is great info for the brain. It will take several years before I go to all 800 and vacuum, but I do understand the buying and selling and upgrading. It also comes down to available cash. I appreciate this greatly. Keep passing along the info.

[JoeJ]

I started 13 years ago with a 3 x 10 oil evaporator with 470 taps and a 20 x 24 sugar house. I was going to build a 16 x 20 building, then as I visited other sugar operations, I heard the now famous "I should have built it bigger". So I thought 20 x 24 would be plenty big. WRONG!!. I should have gone 24 x 32. I would suggest that if you can afford bigger, then go bigger. Five years from now you will not regret it.

As for the 3 x 10, it was plenty big for 470 taps, no steam away or RO. Boiling time was OK, even at 470 taps. Only produced about 2 gallons of syrup per hour, using 3 - 3 1/2 gallons of oil per gallon of syrup. Then came the small RO, then the steam away, and soon 900 taps and a bigger RO (600). Evaporator size was still OK, sugar house started to grow smaller. Then came the extra 2,100 taps. Added on to the sugar house, bought a 1200 gph RO, but the evaporator size is still fine. My largest collection day this season was 6,200 gallons of sap. RO'ed the sap to 15%, boiled 5 hours 8 minutes and made 118 gal of syrup using a yearly average of .34 gall of oil per gal of syrup.

Summation, in my opinion, go bigger with both the evaporator and the sugar house size.

Joe

[awpoolco]

I started 13 years ago with a 3 x 10 oil evaporator with 470 taps and a 20 x 24 sugar house. I was going to build a 16 x 20 building, then as I visited other sugar operations, I heard the now famous "I should have built it bigger". So I thought 20 x 24 would be plenty big. WRONG!!. I should have gone 24 x 32. I would suggest that if you can afford bigger, then go bigger. Five years from now you will not regret it.

As for the 3 x 10, it was plenty big for 470 taps, no steam away or RO. Boiling time was OK, even at 470 taps. Only produced about 2 gallons of syrup per hour, using 3 - 3 1/2 gallons of oil per gallon of syrup. Then came the small RO, then the steam away, and soon 900 taps and a bigger RO (600). Evaporator size was still OK, sugar house started to grow smaller. Then came the extra 2,100 taps. Added on to the sugar house, bought a 1200 gph RO, but the evaporator size is still fine. My largest collection day this season was 6,200 gallons of sap. RO'ed the sap to 15%, boiled 5 hours 8 minutes and made 118 gal of syrup using a yearly average of .34 gall of oil per gal of syrup.

Summation, in my opinion, go bigger with both the evaporator and the sugar house size.

Joe
wow, you guys are killing me, but i will head the advice. At this point I will have my wallet lead the way. All comments are very appreciated

[abbott]

One thing to keep in mind: any stainless, lead-free evaporator in the size range you are looking at won't lose much if any value in the next 5 years, assuming you treat it well. It won't be a big deal if you have to upgrade a few years down the road... there will almost certainly be a strong market to sell what you've got and upgrade again.

As for your sugarhouse... don't build it too small. Make sure there is enough room for the upgrade if/when it comes. If money is limited, my advice is to spend it on the sugarhouse fist. Then on the tubing/vacuum system if you can easily sell excess sap. But if you find a deal on an evap that's a bit bigger than you were imagining... go for it.

People keep talking about 2 gpt sap in a day on vacuum. I've never seen it happen - only occasionally 1.5 gpt. And I average over .4 gpt syrup (I made 435 gallons syrup on 860 taps this year, only hitting 1000 gallons of sap in a day once.) It makes more sense to me to look at it this way: How much sap are you hoping to boil in a season? How long do you want to spend boiling in a season? Now divide the two and you come up with the rate at which you need to boil it off.

I have a 40"x10' evap and I boil at 80 gph (no RO.) So I'm looking at a max of 20,000 gallons of sap, or 250 hours boiling. Thats 50 hours a week for 5 weeks. I can handle that. But my sap all comes right to the saphouse. I don't plan on adding many more taps until I upgrade my evaporator... and add on to my saphouse (currently 16x20 with long overhangs for wood/sap storage.)

[awpoolco]

One thing to keep in mind: any stainless, lead-free evaporator in the size range you are looking at won't lose much if any value in the next 5 years, assuming you treat it well. It won't be a big deal if you have to upgrade a few years down the road... there will almost certainly be a strong market to sell what you've got and upgrade again.

As for your sugarhouse... don't build it too small. Make sure there is enough room for the upgrade if/when it comes. If money is limited, my advice is to spend it on the sugarhouse fist. Then on the tubing/vacuum system if you can easily sell excess sap. But if you find a deal on an evap that's a bit bigger than you were imagining... go for it.

People keep talking about 2 gpt sap in a day on vacuum. I've never seen it happen - only occasionally 1.5 gpt. And I average over .4 gpt syrup (I made 435 gallons syrup on 860 taps this year, only hitting 1000 gallons of sap in a day once.) It makes more sense to me to look at it this way: How much sap are you hoping to boil in a season? How long do you want to spend boiling in a season? Now divide the two and you come up with the rate at which you need to boil it off.

I have a 40"x10' evap and I boil at 80 gph (no RO.) So I'm looking at a max of 20,000 gallons of sap, or 250 hours boiling. Thats 50 hours a week for 5 weeks. I can handle that. But my sap all comes right to the saphouse. I don't plan on adding many more taps until I upgrade my evaporator... and add on to my saphouse (currently 16x20 with long overhangs for wood/sap storage.)
That makes perfect sense. After digesting all the info, I have decided to first start with the shack and misc. Then take what I can afford and find as a good deal. Placement of my shack in relation to lines and whether I can get them to reach feasibly. All great stuff guys. Shack plans next; recommendations to include???

[Tater]

Abbott, I have zero experience with vacuum, but I have had sap saks running over in 36 hours (about 3 gallons). Granted, that's an unusually good run, but it did happen on my last run this season, after some of my taps were ~6 weeks old. Not all the taps were still running that well, but earlier in the season it was definitely possible to get an average of 2 gpt with sap saks in a 24 hour period during a good run.

[motowbrowne]

That makes perfect sense. After digesting all the info, I have decided to first start with the shack and misc. Then take what I can afford and find as a good deal. Placement of my shack in relation to lines and whether I can get them to reach feasibly. All great stuff guys. Shack plans next; recommendations to include???

That's a good call. I wasn't trying to tell you earlier not to start with a 2x6. If the money is there for the long-term rig, go for it. Otherwise, start with what you can afford, just don't build yourself into a corner. When you plan for a 2x6, think about how a 3x12 will fit in there, or else, where you're going to put an RO. If you do anticipate 800 taps, you'll need one or both.

I'm going to have to do major modifications to fit my new rig into my shack. A little forethought could have prevented some of them.

[abbott]

Abbott, I have zero experience with vacuum, but I have had sap saks running over in 36 hours (about 3 gallons). Granted, that's an unusually good run, but it did happen on my last run this season, after some of my taps were ~6 weeks old. Not all the taps were still running that well, but earlier in the season it was definitely possible to get an average of 2 gpt with sap saks in a 24 hour period during a good run.

Yeah, I've got a yard tree that can crank out 2-3 gallons of 4% sap in a day. And my 7 yard trees can average over 2 gpt with 2 taps apiece. But it just never happens in my woods. Vacuum gets you the most on days when there was no freeze overnight and the gravity taps have slowed or stopped. I keep thinking maybe that monster run will come, but it never has.

Assuming you were boiling at about 40:1 to make your 13 gallons of syrup this year you got 12 gpt total on the year. If you had even one day of 2gpt+, then that was a sixth of your sap for the entire year. My best day got me a sixteenth of my sap for the year. But with 35+ days of collecting, it adds up!

But that's not the real point anyway. The point is, don't think that you need to have an evaporator that can dispense with two gallons of sap per tap in one day of boiling. Unless you have treezillas that can crank out 2gpt day after day and you get 40 gallons of sap per tap in a season. Even if you get a couple days with lots of sap, it makes more sense (in my mind at least) to look at your expectation for the entire season and base your evaporator size on that. Sure there may be a couple of late nights along the way, but isn't that what maple season is all about?

Sorry for rambling and raving.

[wurmdert]

I agree Abbott, Ive had some good runs this season and the best was 1.6 gpt. I dont think my woods could give much more than that in 24 hrs. Individual taps yes, the woods as a whole no way.

[Tater]

It all comes down to your individual situation. I work 40 hours per week 45 minutes from home. I collect sap 30 minutes from home (different direction than work). I don't have a lot of time to boil, or much room to store sap. If you have more time to boil or room to store some sap during abnormally good runs, that obviously makes a difference. But right now my number of taps is limited by my evaporator size, so I'd tend to go oversize rather than under (plan ahead, ya know).

My figure of 2 gpt was intended to be a theoretical max anyway, just to show that 800 taps on a 2x6 is doable. Mike pointed out he's got 830 taps on a 2x6 but wishes he had more evaporator. If he finds a bargain 2x6, I'd recommend getting it, but if buying new with potential for 800 taps I'd be looking at a 2x8 and making plans for an RO.

[awpoolco]

It all comes down to your individual situation. I work 40 hours per week 45 minutes from home. I collect sap 30 minutes from home (different direction than work). I don't have a lot of time to boil, or much room to store sap. If you have more time to boil or room to store some sap during abnormally good runs, that obviously makes a difference. But right now my number of taps is limited by my evaporator size, so I'd tend to go oversize rather than under (plan ahead, ya know).

My figure of 2 gpt was intended to be a theoretical max anyway, just to show that 800 taps on a 2x6 is doable. Mike pointed out he's got 830 taps on a 2x6 but wishes he had more evaporator. If he finds a bargain 2x6, I'd recommend getting it, but if buying new with potential for 800 taps I'd be looking at a 2x8 and making plans for an RO.

Don't anyone of you apologize for anything. This is what I was hoping for, ideas of what has happened with each of you along the way. This is going to be a retirement thing for a little extra income, and to keep me active. I am a Phys Ed. teacher, age 50, avid into the outdoors and this gives me the chance to continue it. Going to build the shack first and make sure there is room to expand easily. Laying out my forrest to pipe it down as close as I can to the house is my plan. I don't want to haul sap in, just stay right here on the 40 acre homestead and get old.

[Big_Eddy]

When building your sugar house, remember that if you plan ahead it can be easy to add some additional length in the future, but it's much harder to make an existing structure wider later.

[Mini_Maple_Men]

Last year we built a 12x16 sugar house for our cute little 2x3 Mason. It was great to have all the room to work in! This summer the 12x16 is going to become the sales and bottling area and we are building a 20x24 attached behind it for a new used 2x8 or 3x10 with a RO room and 1500 gallons of sap storage and 500 gallons of concentrate storage. We have picked up a couple hundred acres of property to tap. So we are gonna go big now. The point to all this rambling is we did start with a small shack but it was layer out to be added on later. Even when "later" is only 2 years...lol

[awpoolco]

That is my story, without the couple hundred acres. And I am 50 not 10. My max will never exceed what i can do here on my property. 800 all on shurflo is my end goal. "Go big or go home" is a great Motto but the funds have to be available. 4 kids in college keeps me honest. 2x6 was my plan but 2x8 may be my choice.

[Mini_Maple_Men]

It wasn't my plan at all to go big. This was supposed to be fun to teach my 3 sons about producing maple syrup. When we built the sugar house I layed it out for me to be able to grow later in life. The plan was if the boys were interested as they got older they could have a hobby business. The "problem" arose this spring when friends of ours came over to get some syrup, they didn't like the price so they offered a trade of a gallon a year for use of their land. That was way to good a deal to pass up. Almost all maples! But it puts me in position of forced expansion. Just as a suggestion, we have found a local mill that sells us rough cut pine at a great deal. Saved me thousands on the first sugar house! Sorry for the ramble.

[awpoolco]

I am looking at a rig, 2x6 with an inferno arch, looks amazing. The 2x2 front pan is new leader patriot pan and the back is a 2x4 raised flue soldered, older. Does anyone have a concern about soldered flue pans? I can afford this rig and that is my only concern to this point. they made 450 gals this year

[n8hutch]

I am looking at a rig, 2x6 with an inferno arch, looks amazing. The 2x2 front pan is new leader patriot pan and the back is a 2x4 raised flue soldered, older. Does anyone have a concern about soldered flue pans? I can afford this rig and that is my only concern to this point. they made 450 gals this year

That should make a fine first evaporator. soldered pans are fine. May want to look into if it is Lead solderd or newer and Lead Free, either way you can make syrup with it just don't rub the soldered joints when cleaning. This releases more lead.

It wasn't that long ago everyone Had solderd pans. Personally I would be careful not to over Payour for the pan if it is Lead Soldered. Eventually these are going to be phased out completely and will have virtually no resale value.

[wiam]

I suggest not paying much for a lead free soldered pan and not paying anything for lead soldered. Because that is the future value.

[bees1st]

I suggest not paying much for a lead free soldered pan and not paying anything for lead soldered. Because that is the future value.
I second the emotion .

[abbott]

I am looking at a rig, 2x6 with an inferno arch, looks amazing. The 2x2 front pan is new leader patriot pan and the back is a 2x4 raised flue soldered, older. Does anyone have a concern about soldered flue pans? I can afford this rig and that is my only concern to this point. they made 450 gals this year

Sound like a good rig to get. I've only ever had soldered pans - my old evaporator developed pinholes in both the syrup pan and flue pan long before there was ever any issue with the soldered joints. I have had to re-solder a float, though. Not fun if you have no experience soldering stainless. If the flue pan is lead soldered, that will definitely limit resale value. But this rig might be fast enough to keep you in business for quite a few years anyway.

[awpoolco]

Couple more questions... How can you tell if the solder is lead or leadfree? Also, CDL vs. Leader? And, airtight vs not?

[bees1st]

Go to a good hardware store . They will have a lead test kit . Usually for testing for lead in paint . It will work for this test as well . Good luck !