Factory pan, homemade (block) arch?

[ADK_XJ]

Hey all, I'm doing some early thinking on the upgrade I plan to make for next year with a 50-100 tap capacity pan/arch setup. Just had our first kid this Fall and recently changed jobs, so money is at a premium. However, I've learned by experience it's better not to cut corners.

So, what I'm trying to figure out is if I'd be heading down the wrong road by purchasing a standalone 2x4' pan as an initial investment and building that out on a homemade block arch setup to save some dough? Would I suffer poor evap rates? I have a sense what I'd need to do to make the arch effective but is it a waste to not just buy the steel arch at the same time?

Anyone have experience running pans on their homemade block arch with good success?

[SeanD]

That's not a bad idea if cash is tight or you want to get into this hobby gradually. I put my money and time into a good set of homemade pans and boiled with them on a block arch for a year until I bought a Mason arch. Then after a few years of that, I upgraded the pans, but put them on the Mason arch. That's where I'm at today. It's hard to lay out thousands of dollars before seeing a drop of syrup for a hobby. Some people can do it. Some can't. For those of us who can't, expanding and improving incrementally is the way to go.

Pans are a bigger factor in evaporation rate than the arch. Getting the pans is worth it.

Sean

[ADK_XJ]

That's not a bad idea if cash is tight or you want to get into this hobby gradually. I put my money and time into a good set of homemade pans and boiled with them on a block arch for a year until I bought a Mason arch. Then after a few years of that, I upgraded the pans, but put them on the Mason arch. That's where I'm at today. It's hard to lay out thousands of dollars before seeing a drop of syrup for a hobby. Some people can do it. Some can't. For those of us who can't, expanding and improving incrementally is the way to go.

Pans are a bigger factor in evaporation rate than the arch. Getting the pans is worth it..
Sean


Good feedback, thank you. I have made syrup over two seasons now but all hotel pans and an outdoor block arch. Do you pictures of your block setup?

[jbelany]

This is my cinder block setup with a Smoky Lake 2x4 flat pan. Still working on efficiency, but average anywhere between 6-8 gallons per hour. I lined my block with 2 barrels (free) and a barrel stove kit (about $60). Two years and not a single block with a crack. Next year I am removing the two center pieces of angle iron and will line the perimeter with angle instead, then I will put gasket on this. Additionally, I am going to put blanket in the round part of the barrel near the chimney. Both of these areas are high heat loss, a simple $100 investment should make this setup more efficient and add to it's longevity.

Joe

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[Trevor5]

I have a factory 2x4 flat pan with a 1x2 warming pan that I put on a cinder block arch, I don't pay too much attention to boiling rates but I think when I really get it cranking and keep on top of the firing at a regular interval I get around 10-12 gph. I have yet to fully take the thing apart yet for the year, I am pretty close to you if you wanted to check it out. Hope to finish cleaning the pans this weekend and take the rest apart, now that it should be warm on the weekend.

[red dorakeen]

I've been thinking the same thing as ADK. 6 to 8 GPH wouldn't be much of an improvement over what I'm getting from the 3 steam table pans. 10 to12 would seem pretty good.

I'm curious of what the difference is in jbelany's and Trever5's setups is to account for the different boil rates.

[ADK_XJ]

I have a factory 2x4 flat pan with a 1x2 warming pan that I put on a cinder block arch, I don't pay too much attention to boiling rates but I think when I really get it cranking and keep on top of the firing at a regular interval I get around 10-12 gph. I have yet to fully take the thing apart yet for the year, I am pretty close to you if you wanted to check it out. Hope to finish cleaning the pans this weekend and take the rest apart, now that it should be warm on the weekend.
Yeah? I'd appreciate that — might be able to drop out on Sunday AM if that might work for you. I'll drop you a PM.

[NJG]

We have been boiling on a 2x4 flat pan over a block arch for several years now and have had very little problems. I have used cement board and sheet metal to line the "arch", all of which have burnt up in a year or two but kept the block itself in fairly good shape. I have a friend who has used rock wool with success but haven't tried that yet myself.

The biggest problem we have had is the block "arch" itself heaving with the freeze and thaw of less than solid ground. I welded up a 2"x2"x1/4" angle iron frame with threaded rod on the sides to compensate for the changes in the ground. It works good but always have to plug the gaps between the metal frame and the blocks.

[Trevor5]

I've been thinking the same thing as ADK. 6 to 8 GPH wouldn't be much of an improvement over what I'm getting from the 3 steam table pans. 10 to12 would seem pretty good.

I'm curious of what the difference is in jbelany's and Trever5's setups is to account for the different boil rates.

I will preface by saying 10-12 gph is when I am really on top of things. I do have the pre-heater on the back 1'x2' pan, so really I have a 2x5, though the back pan never boils, it will steam and become very close to boiling by the end of the day.

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[red dorakeen]

I will preface by saying 10-12 gph is when I am really on top of things. I do have the pre-heater on the back 1'x2' pan, so really I have a 2x5, though the back pan never boils, it will steam and become very close to boiling by the end of the day.

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Thanks for posting the pictures.

It looks mortared. Is it insulated and fire bricked?

I suspect I would need to put more work into my block arch to see as good a boil rate as you get with a new pan.

[Tater]

The progression goes something like this

Year 1: 6 taps, turkey fryer, 3 qt syrup
Year 2: 20 taps, 4 steam pans, 5 gal syrup
Year 3: 50 taps, 2x4 flat pan, 15 gal syrup
Year 4: 200 taps, 2x6 flue pan, 50 gal syrup
...
Year 10: Lots of taps (mixed high vac and 3/16 gravity), 4x14 raised flue, auto draw-off, big RO, water jacketed bottler, filter press, etc, etc, lots of syrup/candy/sugar.

Might as well go with the cinderblock arch. You'll likely be upgrading to a flue pan eventually anyway, at which point a "real" arch for a flat pan would be sold or seriously modified for the flue pan. Lots of syrup has been made on block arches, including ours. :)

We ran around 40 taps with a 2x4 flat pan. I work full time, and finding time to boil was not always easy. I would not have wanted to run many more taps. If you have the time, a 2x4 will work, but I'd recommend a 2x6 continuous flow pan. It's not that much more money, and the cinderblock arch won't be much more expensive for 2 extra feet. I'd also figure out a way to add forced draft. We funnelled two high CFM computer fans straight in under the door, and were able to push our rig over 12 gph if we did everything just right. Our setup was not well insulated and didn't even have a ramp between the firebox and stack (4' firebox fired at one end). Could probably do better if we had optimized things better, but hey! It worked!

[Sugar Warrior]

Hi Adk XJ, I built a 2X8 block arch on a "U" shaped concrete slab (No concrete under the fire) on top of a packed crusher run. It is fire brick lined. It been in operation for 4 seasons. It currently has a 2x4 Smoky Lake
drop flue and a Stainless Steel Creations divided 2X4 flat pan. The rig does 40 gph. I am very happy with it.
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[Trevor5]

Thanks for posting the pictures.

It looks mortared. Is it insulated and fire bricked?

I suspect I would need to put more work into my block arch to see as good a boil rate as you get with a new pan.

It is not mortared, just stacked with quite a bit of tin-foil to level everything out. I don't have any insulation or fire brick in it either. Here are a couple of pictures closure up of the arch insides. Those boil rates are hard to get I really have to be firing every 5 min and really be on top of things.1423714238142391424014241

[ADK_XJ]

The progression goes something like this

Year 1: 6 taps, turkey fryer, 3 qt syrup
Year 2: 20 taps, 4 steam pans, 5 gal syrup
Year 3: 50 taps, 2x4 flat pan, 15 gal syrup
Year 4: 200 taps, 2x6 flue pan, 50 gal syrup
...
Year 10: Lots of taps (mixed high vac and 3/16 gravity), 4x14 raised flue, auto draw-off, big RO, water jacketed bottler, filter press, etc, etc, lots of syrup/candy/sugar.

Might as well go with the cinderblock arch. You'll likely be upgrading to a flue pan eventually anyway, at which point a "real" arch for a flat pan would be sold or seriously modified for the flue pan. Lots of syrup has been made on block arches, including ours. :)

We ran around 40 taps with a 2x4 flat pan. I work full time, and finding time to boil was not always easy. I would not have wanted to run many more taps. If you have the time, a 2x4 will work, but I'd recommend a 2x6 continuous flow pan. It's not that much more money, and the cinderblock arch won't be much more expensive for 2 extra feet. I'd also figure out a way to add forced draft. We funnelled two high CFM computer fans straight in under the door, and were able to push our rig over 12 gph if we did everything just right. Our setup was not well insulated and didn't even have a ramp between the firebox and stack (4' firebox fired at one end). Could probably do better if we had optimized things better, but hey! It worked!

Great rundown. Helpful points - I do figure there are probably a few iterations to this evaporator process coming ahead but will probably be a while before I get more serious than 100 taps (famous last words). I'm also open and even eager to try using RO to offset my boiling time as I expand.

[ADK_XJ]

Hi Adk XJ, I built a 2X8 block arch on a "U" shaped concrete slab (No concrete under the fire) on top of a packed crusher run. It is fire brick lined. It been in operation for 4 seasons. It currently has a 2x4 Smoky Lake
drop flue and a Stainless Steel Creations divided 2X4 flat pan. The rig does 40 gph. I am very happy with it.
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Wow, that is impressive — 40gph?! Got any video of that baby in action? Did you just make the concrete forms for the base and then mortar in the blocks?

[ADK_XJ]

It is not mortared, just stacked with quite a bit of tin-foil to level everything out. I don't have any insulation or fire brick in it either. Here are a couple of pictures closure up of the arch insides. Those boil rates are hard to get I really have to be firing every 5 min and really be on top of things.1423714238142391424014241

Very nice. It's possible 30-50 taps is the max I'll do next year so this type of setup could very well do the trick for another season or two.

[Sugar Warrior]

Hi ADK_XJ

I made concrete forms as shown below and mortared in the blocks. The concrete was mixed and poured by hand into the form which sat on a 1 foot base of packed crusher run.
The site is somewhat remote, no electrical power.

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The next photo shows the fire brick partially installed. I used Heat Stop 50 to mortar set the fire brick.

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The next photo shows the interior of the arch. The ramp-up to the back pan is made of blocks, brick and sand.

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The next photo shows the completed installation as originally built. Originally the back pan was a 2X4 flat pan. I got 16 gph with that configuration.
Three seasons ago I switched to the Smoky Lake drop flue 2X4 and get 40 gph at full throttle with that pan. I had to make the sand layer deeper under the
drop flue pan, but it was easy to do. I made the stack base opening out of steel plate and screwed it in with concrete screws.


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The arch has been easy to maintain. I usually only have to re-mortar a fire brick or two in between seasons. Unfortunately I don't have a video of the arch in operation but will definitely make one next season.

[ADK_XJ]

Hi ADK_XJ

I made concrete forms as shown below and mortared in the blocks. The concrete was mixed and poured by hand into the form which sat on a 1 foot base of packed crusher run.
The site is somewhat remote, no electrical power.

14242

The next photo shows the fire brick partially installed. I used Heat Stop 50 to mortar set the fire brick.

14243

The next photo shows the interior of the arch. The ramp-up to the back pan is made of blocks, brick and sand.

14244

The next photo shows the completed installation as originally built. Originally the back pan was a 2X4 flat pan. I got 16 gph with that configuration.
Three seasons ago I switched to the Smoky Lake drop flue 2X4 and get 40 gph at full throttle with that pan. I had to make the sand layer deeper under the
drop flue pan, but it was easy to do. I made the stack base opening out of steel plate and screwed it in with concrete screws.


14245

The arch has been easy to maintain. I usually only have to re-mortar a fire brick or two in between seasons. Unfortunately I don't have a video of the arch in operation but will definitely make one next season.

Wow. awesome...

[Trevor5]

Very nice. It's possible 30-50 taps is the max I'll do next year so this type of setup could very well do the trick for another season or two.

I would think 30-50 would be good for this set up, I had 30 this year and had 40 last year. If the season and work schedule work out better for me next year I might do at least 50. It definitely makes for long weekend boils, but is doable. I keep saying I will boil some in the evenings after work, but I never seem to get the ambition to do that. I really with I had a more permanent block set up like Sugar Warrior has, that is a nice looking block arch.

[red dorakeen]

I really appreciate the posts in this thread. Good food for thought.

I don't expect to ever go beyond 50 taps. Will probably go to 30 next year.

Ultimately, I could see aiming for an arch similar to Sugar Warrior's

My current arch is like Trever5's.

I'm thinking perhaps a 2x5 divided pan on my current arch will do and I can improve the arch in years to come to keep up with increased taps.