Vacuum loss to system with a sap ladder

[DaveB]

About six years ago I used to have a traditional vacuum setup for a good chunk of my trees but there was always a couple of areas that I could not get vacuum to and I switched to using Shurflo pumps because I could use them everywhere and extend vacuum to 95% of my trees. After a few years and for a couple of reasons I'd like to go back to a traditional vacuum system of a vacuum pump and releaser. However, if I did that, it means that I would lose vacuum to about 75 trees that currently have it.

The problem is that they are about 500' from where my vacuum pump and releaser would be. In the past, I just ran those on gravity. I know that I could run a vacuum line over there and have a releaser there but that means I need two releasers. I could also put a sap ladder over there and return the sap to the main releaser but I'm concerned about vacuum loss to the whole system.

Let's say I have vacuum pump connected to a releaser and I'm getting 25" there. If I add the other line that has the sap ladder, does the vacuum loss impact only that line or all of the lines? I know there is a loss of about 1"/foot of ladder but I don't know if that is just line or all lines connected to that releaser.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Your vacuum loss should only be to the taps that are being lifted by the ladder and if the ladder is constructed properly, will only be an inch or 2.

[BreezyHill]

Good question.
Your system entire system will not be affected by the slight drop in vac past a ladder provided the system is designed and setup correctly.

Depending on how tight your system is you may benefit from an injector. I run injectors and have very minimal drop in vac after several ladders. After a series of 7 I only drop 3" provided the injectors are set for peak flow.

All it takes is one spout that is a smig loose and you can close your injector off.

The 1"/ foot was the old rule of thumb for height of a ladder with a given amount of vac available. I prefer to not make a ladder over 18' tall even with 28"+. Maintance is not easy on a ladder and the slippage rate is pretty high after 18' of rise.

The length of my longest current run on ladders is about 1250' and there is 7 ladders in the run. 112' of risers I think is the total. #1-3 are all 1/2" risers and ladders 4&5 will be changed this summer. 1/2" I find works better and runs longer in the cold and thaws faster. Spider ladders plug with chips pretty easily and is a hassle.

I use 1/8" needle valves for injectors and place them where I can see the ladder during adjustment.

[DaveB]

It sounds like I only need to worry about vacuum loss on the one line which is a good thing. The only thing now is how to construct the ladder. Both of you guys mentioned "if properly constructed" so I'd like to have that as my target!

My plan is to have about 4 or 5 lateral lines come into a star fitting on a short piece of mainline and at the end of that mainline place another star fitting upside down with one 5/16 line for every 15 taps that I have going up about 8' to another star fitting that is right side up on a mainline that will slope down to my releaser. I think that I'll probably have 3 or 4 5/16 risers to accommodate the number of taps that I have in that section of woods (between 45 and 60).

I measured this weekend and distance is actually closer to 400' so I'm thinking that an 8' height will give me a 2% slope to the releaser.

Does that sound like a properly constructed sap ladder?

[rhwells2003]

I think your going to need more like 6-10 laterals for that many taps. As for ladder construction I'm waiting to hear where this thread goes b/c I'm in the same boat as your are. I'll be adding a ladder to my system next year, and was thinking the samething. Star fitting upside down with a ball valve to be able to drain and clean, up 10' to another star fitting right side up.

[rjoly]

If you dont mind what where are you getting your needle vales.

[BreezyHill]

It sounds like I only need to worry about vacuum loss on the one line which is a good thing. The only thing now is how to construct the ladder. Both of you guys mentioned "if properly constructed" so I'd like to have that as my target!

My plan is to have about 4 or 5 lateral lines come into a star fitting on a short piece of mainline and at the end of that mainline place another star fitting upside down with one 5/16 line for every 15 taps that I have going up about 8' to another star fitting that is right side up on a mainline that will slope down to my releaser. I think that I'll probably have 3 or 4 5/16 risers to accommodate the number of taps that I have in that section of woods (between 45 and 60).

I measured this weekend and distance is actually closer to 400' so I'm thinking that an 8' height will give me a 2% slope to the releaser.

Does that sound like a properly constructed sap ladder?

The numbers sound good. I run the 18-22 rule of thumb on taps per riser; but I use injectors to speed the sap up the risers to eliminate any chance of pooling during peak flow. I have plenty of cfm to overcome the minuet air injected. I have a cfm tester and with all my spouts capped I was not even losing .2 cfms on 10 injectors.

Stars: the top one is on top of the main and the bottom is on the underside of the main. Mess this up and you are dead in the water. I would use a 6 way star and only use three next to each other. On occasion opposites will cross flow and you will have one going up and the opposite going down. Not very efficient when this happens.

2% slope to the ladder is perfect. To much and you will get surges of sap to little and the gases will slide over the sap and up the ladder.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-103EF-Shutoff-needle-valve-brass-1-4-tube-X-1-8-pipe-/170280002494?hash=item27a57aa3be:m:mfqw7rRVYRyWboN XJx3IRaA

I use these for valves. cheap and they last for years. The handle is also great to use for setting. I turn mine so that closed the handle is about 10 O'clock. Open handle is roughly at 12 & 6. Open 1/4 turn to separate the needle from the seat fully and then most are turned back to 1/8 turn open. One is more but it has a 1" lateral 1500' long bring about 300 taps in to the top off ladder #3 and the injector is for #2. This is a redesigned ladder with 1/2" risers now into a 2" pvc manifold. The 1500' lateral is on an east facing slope and is protected from the wind we get mostly from the west and these trees flow very well most all the time.

14203 This is an example of the wrong way. All the air goes up the ladder and the sap sits at the bottom. Turned it over and it worked perfect.

14204 It is important to have the lines on the south side of the tree and as straight up as possible. These are near a brook bank and left me little options. The y are open to the south but shaded slightly in the early am. They worked fine for last 5 seasons but will becoming 1/2" risers in 1-2 summers. The extra injector was an experiment to try and clean out a wood chip plug...failed.

14205 If you have mud wasp issues use a check valve spout to block their access to the injector.

Most of my injectors are on a saddle 20-30 feet from the ladder.

If you need more pics let me know. May take a couple days...spring is coming on the farm.

[DaveB]

Breezy...thanks for the info and pictures! I appreciate the time. Now I have a project to work on this fall! I wish I could start it now, but for a number of reasons It'll have to wait to fall.

[maple flats]

After dealing with a pooling issue and 3 attempts to fix it, I bought some of the needle valves Breezy shows above. I installed 1 @ 30' from the ladder, problem fixed. Before that I often only had 7" vac. at the far end (this main was only 240' long with 45 taps total), after installing the needle valve I had reading within 1-2" of the gauge on the releaser, usually 22-24", a couple of times as much as 27". I only opened the valve 1 turn, then closed it back to about 3/8 open. It worked wonders. I then added another needle valve about 40' from the farthest out ladder on another main which had some pooling but not major. That main has 2 ladders, each between 8-12'. I only put the 1 needle valve out past the farthest ladder and it removed the pooling at both ladders. I also had that valve open the same amount as the other one. On that main I originally seemed to hold within 6-7" of the releaser reading, after installing the needle valve it was within 1-3", that main is about 800' long, but only has 80 taps on it.
I now believe that at least sometimes a micro leak helps get the vacuum out in the woods better.

[pls009]

This is great information!

Question - when they say the recommended number of ladders is 1 for every 15 taps - can someone clarify that for me? One 6 way star for every 15 taps or just one 5/16th line for every 15 taps? Do you plug the extra holes on the star fitting that aren't needed?

[DaveB]

This is great information!

Question - when they say the recommended number of ladders is 1 for every 15 taps - can someone clarify that for me? One 6 way star for every 15 taps or just one 5/16th line for every 15 taps? Do you plug the extra holes on the star fitting that aren't needed?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you should aim for one 5/16 riser for every 15 taps that you have coming into it. For example, if you have 40-45 taps on the mainline, you would have a star fitting with 3 5/16 risers. You can use caps like this one:

http://leaderevaporator.com/p-97-516-plastic-end-cap-for-barbed-fittings.aspx

for any unused connections on the star fitting.

[DaveB]

With regard to the needle valve, I guess having a tight system is not ideal and that you need to have some air come in?

[pls009]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you should aim for one 5/16 riser for every 15 taps that you have coming into it. For example, if you have 40-45 taps on the mainline, you would have a star fitting with 3 5/16 risers. You can use caps like this one:

http://leaderevaporator.com/p-97-516-plastic-end-cap-for-barbed-fittings.aspx

for any unused connections on the star fitting.


Thanks! - I had this all wrong

[maple flats]

With regard to the needle valve, I guess having a tight system is not ideal and that you need to have some air come in?
That appears to be correct. If the system is not leak free, you don't need nor want a needle valve to introduce a micro leak. It puzzles me how Leader can sell an "Air Injector for sap ladders" for $400 when the needle valve at $2.50 and 1 saddle does the trick very well, or a needle valve, 1' of 5/16 and a T, either way. I even have a piece of white cotton cloth over the air inlet to keep bugs out, held in place with a small hose clamp.

[BreezyHill]

The number of taps per riser will depend on many factors I find. My ladder #2 had huge numbers running thru it. in the 30s last season. This season I had chip issues with a new drill bit and she got all plugged up. With an injector you can easily increase the number of taps per riser since the sap is riding on an air bubble.

Please do not think for a moment I am advocating not hecking lines for leaks. Furthest from the case. I check our lines as often as I can; repairing issues found.

Added leaks will only hurt vac readings that are above the minimum needed to get the sap up the ladder quickly and efficiently.

It is just applied science and a practical application of science that gets in the way of things.

You cant imagine the number of people that stop on our dirt road and look and wonder how in the world we get the sap to climb those lines.

I will say I like the 1/2" risers best for ladders that are above 50 taps.

[Clinkis]

So when you use 1/2" risers do you use less of them? I've been following this thread with interest as I plan on constructing 4 ladders next season. One with 100 taps, 2 with 30 taps and 1 with 60 taps. Highest lift will be about 8'. Trying to get all the info I can.

[BreezyHill]

The number of taps per riser will depend on many factors I find. My ladder #2 had huge numbers running thru it. in the 30s last season. This season I had chip issues with a new drill bit and she got all plugged up. With an injector you can easily increase the number of taps per riser since the sap is riding on an air bubble.

Please do not think for a moment I am advocating not hecking lines for leaks. Furthest from the case. I check our lines as often as I can; repairing issues found.

Added leaks will only hurt vac readings that are above the minimum needed to get the sap up the ladder quickly and efficiently.

It is just applied science and a practical application of science that gets in the way of things.

You cant imagine the number of people that stop on our dirt road and look and wonder how in the world we get the sap to climb those lines.

I will say I like the 1/2" risers best for ladders that are above 50 taps.

[rhwells2003]

So whats the disadvantage to going to fewer taps/riser? Like instead of 3 risers on 45 taps, to using all 6 risers? Allowing to much gases and air to escape? Just feel weird buying a 6 way star and capping half of them off.

[DaveB]

So whats the disadvantage to going to fewer taps/riser? Like instead of 3 risers on 45 taps, to using all 6 risers? Allowing to much gases and air to escape? Just feel weird buying a 6 way star and capping half of them off.

You could always buy a 4 way star....lol.

I am curious though if there is a disadvantage to having more lines. It would give me some extra capacity.

[BreezyHill]

Thie opposite riser on the star will get a back flow situation. Sap runs up one riser and down the opposite riser and only the bubbles seem to pull out of the stream. This is why I started building pvc manifolds and trying larger risers.
1" made the most sense but it takes so much air to make a bubble large enough to fill the tubing diameter that it was pointless. and 3/4" still had a lot of sap flowing around the bubble as in the 1" that it is very inefficient on ladders more than 4' tall.

So the next size available was 1/2" and it works nearly perfect. very low slippage, larger column to stay warm longer, and more light area to thaw faster on sunny days. On cloudy days thaws about the same as 5/16.

[Clinkis]

So for a ladder with only 28 taps on it you only want 2 risers? And not opposite each other?

[rhwells2003]

You say you shouldn't have laterals behind each other because the sap will flow up one, and down the one behind it? How can that be when your star at the top is right side up and theoretically should "drop" down into the main? Guess I'm confused

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

So for a ladder with only 28 taps on it you only want 2 risers? And not opposite each other?

I have discussed this situation with expert installers from CDL, Dominion and Grimm and from people at Acer Quebec. They all suggest that for every 25 to 30 taps, you need a 6 star fitting with 6 risers.

[Clinkis]

I have discussed this situation with expert installers from CDL, Dominion and Grimm and from people at Acer Quebec. They all suggest that for every 25 to 30 taps, you need a 6 star fitting with 6 risers.

Thanks for the info. So a ladder with 60 taps I would want 2 stars and a line with 90 taps 3 stars and so on....?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Thanks for the info. So a ladder with 60 taps I would want 2 stars and a line with 90 taps 3 stars and so on....?

That's what I was told and it works in my 9000 tap bush. I don't spend time adjusting air injectors, I make syrup!

[BreezyHill]

So for a ladder with only 28 taps on it you only want 2 risers? And not opposite each other?

That's the way I would do it. I have found that if you get to many risers then you have a slower speed of rise of the sap. The slower the speed the more sap that slips around the bubble of air. This leads to pooling at the ladder bottom.

I use the math end of the equation. the volume of a 1" line is equal to 10.6 5/16 lines and a 3/4" is 5.6 5/16 risers. When you surpass the volume of your feeder or exit line for the ladder your ladder will run slower and create issues for the ladder.

This is one of the reasons that people experience ladder failure.

The other reason that they have a tight tubing system and fail to inject air to help the sap along.

This was discussed a few weeks ago in a thread.

Just remember a few definitions:
Professional- one how is paid for services. We all know many professionals that are out of business.

Practice- The clients that a doctor works on.

Success - the achievement of a goal.

For me I am only sharing what we have been doing on our farm since the 1970's. I have perfect the systems more over the last few years to get better results. It works very well here and many have learned the art from my dad and a few from me.

The other thread a producer tried my method and was pleased with the results and the increased flow with an injector vs no injector.

I will agree that if you already have enough air in the system then you will not need to install an injector or adjust it.

If one is not sure of the science, there is a simple experiment to see first hand how it works. All you need is an old milk bucket and a vac tight lid.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BABSON-BROTHERS-SURGE-MILKER-POT-AND-LID-NICE-L-K-/152048068364?hash=item2366c5670c:g:no0AAOSwvgdW2xp F

Above is a link for those that may not know of these units.
Most lids have 2 or 4 openings that milk lines were attached to or a single milk line and a pulsators. A surge belly milker will be easiest to use if available. These have 4 tubes for inflations and a pulsators port. Tap off the pulsators port and one of the four remaining ports. Fill the bucket half full of water. To the top attach one line to the bottom of the bucket (#1 port), 5/16 sap line will work and tap to seal it well. Hook up your releaser to the opening without the drop tube, #2. Place a needle valve on a section of sap tubing and use duct tape to seal the tube into the lid on port #3. The forth tube tap closed. You will want to have a valve on the two lines from the releaser or a pair of vise grips to seal them off.

Apply vac to port #2 and evacuate the chamber. After that has been done. open the valve to port#1 and close #2. See how long it takes to empty the bucket of the water. Now refill the bucket with the same amount of water. Now repeat the same process but open the needle valve 1/4 turn, open valve #1 and close #2. Notice the speed at the water is now flowing from the chamber and compare the times to remove the water.

When my dad showed me this back around 1978 or 9 I was amazed that it took less than 30 times less time to remove all the water. This is why an injector works very well on a tight tubing system.

If you want to see the results on a not so tight tubing system poke a tiny hole in the tap over port #4 or the pulsators port. Using a delaval, conde, or McCormick bucket will have a more dramatic difference in time, as they buckets are much taller and will ramp up the evacuation time due.

One can always build the ladder and cut in an injector later and remove it or just close it if you don't see a positive result. I adjust mine one time at peak flow and then they are good to go for the season. I do close them for the off season. It is just like walking the lines to find leaks...it takes time but the result is more sap to boil for me.

[BreezyHill]

so for 300 taps on a 1" line are you suggesting that I install 10 - 6 way stars??? On my 18' ladder that would be 60 risers at 18' for a total of 1080 feet of tubing in risers and again at ladder #2 and #1 to go into the sugar house. You sure must have a lot of tubing invest in ladders. LOL

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Don't be fooled by how fast bubbles rise versus how fast sap rises. The proof is in the final amount of sap in your tank. What works for Breezy is fine for Breezy, I am just saying what works well for me and many others who bite their tongue every time this topic comes up! I'm done

[GeneralStark]

Well Thompson's as you said some like to fiddle around watching bubbles move and some like to make syrup!

Don't the trees inject air?

I have raised this question before but it has never been answered: In regards to intentional leaks, don't you have issues with freezing lines downstream of the leak?

[BreezyHill]

For me it is all about management of the bush to get maximum yield.

As others have noticed this season adding an injector will increase your vacuum past the ladder; due to the inefficiency of attempting to transfer vacuum thru pooled sap. Having 1-2" drop in vac past a ladder will add up to large increases in sap production over a ladder that is dependent on the small amount of gases that come from each tap.

Now if you have a couple of spouts that are not seated perfectly then enough air is already leaking into the system and you need not add any more.

Yes trees due produce a small amount of gases bu during peak flow on the vacuum level that I am using this amount of gas is minute compared to what is needed to keep the ladder from pooling and the vac at he end of he line near to what is at the releaser.

The benefit of injecting air to the top of the line for ladder efficiency has not casued a premature freezing of the line. This is due in part that a liquid in motion can be below the freezing point and still be fluid due to it is moving.

But if you add the air to the bottom of the line you can have an issue of an ice dam forming that will start to grow in the line. I have seen this happen in my glass manifold system on the releaser.

Since it takes all of a minute or two during the season to increase sap production on taps past a ladder I an other ladder producers are more than happy to invest this time to make more syrup from the sap we harvest. For me it is another 100 gallons or more a season. And as we increase taps to the ladder lines this number will increase.

I am not sure why a producer would berate another for helping others to increase their production by utilizing technolodge and advances in production teckniques?

I did try what was suggested and turned off the leakers one day this past season and the result was a decrease in sap production of nearly 400%. The ladders slowed to a crawl and the lines pooled. Vacuum past the ladders dropped from 28 to 6". After opening up the injectors to their previous settings the ladders were flowing again and in 25 minutes the lines were clear of all pools and vac at the end of the system was up to 25".

Do take into account I check lines nearly every day for leaks and repair any that are found.

[Clinkis]

So it seems to me that every time sap ladders get mentioned it sparks a heated debate. It seems apparent that there is no general consensus on which is the best way to make a ladder and what works for one individual does not necessarily work well for another. I will be constructing 4 sap ladders before next season with variaous tap counts and highths. So I plan on being open minded and will try the various method suggested, having the option of modifying things and see what produces the best results.

My system is all newer tubing and it is fairly tight. I doesn't sound like its a huge investment to add an air injector so I will include that in my design. If it's not needed I can just keep it closed.

[pls009]

Hopefully this is staying on topic - is it acceptable to have multiple ladders on one system? Example, I have some fairly flat ground with a few dips that I would like to put vacuum on - would be around 350 taps and to do it right, I'm guessing 4 different ladders. Two ladders would just be a climb of about 3-4 feet and two ladders might be more aggressive like 8-10 feet. Assuming that since it is a new system that everything would be tight and that I might need to use a few needle valves to help - it makes me wonder if the current pump that I'm testing (Delaval 73) is getting 26-27" of vac at releaser if I can run this many ladders or if I'm adding injectors if I will go down in vac too much for this system to work properly. I guess I have no experience with these so I don't really know how high people are pumping sap up with these. Thanks

[BreezyHill]

I run a D 73 with a total of 10 or eleven ladders this season. One line has 7 ladders in itself and another line enters in at the top of #3 and has its own ladders at #1 & 2. You can run multiple ladders on that pump. I have a 75 that I also turn on when issues arise. Like a tree fell in one of the wind storms and vac was low so I turned on the backup pump and went insearch of the issue. Got back and shut off the 75 and ran at 27.5 till I found a couple small leaks to get back to 28.

I can tell when I have a leak as the vfm of the 73 is match very well to 700-750 with all the ladders and injectors.

Ladders are actually very simple to do it is just a matter of adjusting injection if you need it and if you don't then it is one less thing to manage.

Once you repair a couple of micro leaks in a system you will get very good at finding them. I look for sap flowing faster than the norm. That line will have a leak. Either a squirrel, a branch or a tap that is not seated right is generally the issue. If your pump is larger than you need then you will see much less change in vac readings but you will see it in the tank and how much sap you get.

Just as you do in a ladder that is not flowing right. The higher the vac past the ladder the more sap you will be making, and that much more syrup at the end of the boiling.

[Moser's Maple]

we raise 89 taps 17 feet in a single lift over a ridge
started with 2- 6 way stars and had pooling, added another 6 way star and ended all pooling.
vacuum at releaser is 26.5hg
vacuum at end of wet/dry 2000' away 26 hg
vacuum at end of mainline below the ladder located 375 feet away from lift, and roughly a total of 575 away from end of wet/dry 25.5 hg
no leakers in ladder
4% mainline slope to ladder

[Sunday Rock Maple]

we raise 89 taps 17 feet in a single lift over a ridge
started with 2- 6 way stars and had pooling, added another 6 way star and ended all pooling.
vacuum at releaser is 26.5hg
vacuum at end of wet/dry 2000' away 26 hg
vacuum at end of mainline below the ladder located 375 feet away from lift, and roughly a total of 575 away from end of wet/dry 25.5 hg
no leakers in ladder
4% mainline slope to ladderif my math is right that's about 5 taps per vertical line?

[BreezyHill]

Never forget the issue of a slow moving ladder is they freeze full.
2% slope to the ladder is recommended to reduce the height that sap can be in the ladder when freezing.

The larger the ice dam is the longer it takes to thaw. 1" line takes longer to thaw than does a 5/16 or 1/2" by as much as an hour. Reducing the time the bush is under vac. Liquid has a very poor transferal rate of vac ice is a vac stopper.

If one looks closely at the commercial lifter units they have a flapper valve to dump the sap as soon as vac is lost to the reservoir of the lifter. The line freezes and the reservoir dumps. When the line thaws the flap closes and stops any gravity flowing sap from going on the ground. Has one of these setups. It was dumping 30-50 gallons on the ground depending on if it was a sunny day and the line thawed quickly or cloudy and the line thawed very slowly if at all.

On my design I can be running hours earlier on a cloudy 34 degree day as there is very little in the ladder to thaw. Most feeder lines I use are blue to be able to see if there is any pooling that will limit vac transfer down the line. Black will thaw faster but you can not see if there is pooling in the line.

In my system I only use 2% slope as higher slope created a larger pool area and the tree gases were not able to get to the spiders due to the saps rapid flow rate to the end of the line.

[Moser's Maple]

if my math is right that's about 5 taps per vertical line?
Yes in my particular setup and situation that's what worked out for me. I know it's over kill but I'm pleased with what I'm getting for vacuum transfer

[RustyBuckets]

I see ole Breezy is still beating the dead horse about adding injectors lol. You got pooling Breezy when you closed them cause you dont have them setup right. A tight tubing system, a properly constructed ladder or series of ladders, the gas the trees release and no leakers will without question gain you more sap than trying to get the tightest tubing system you can and then install leaks in it. This is common knowledge. You wont see some of the best in the business and smartest sugarmakers out there getting sap yields most dream of by adding a leak in system they spent hundreds of hours installing and maintaining it to be tight. I seen all sorts of stuff in my life from guys putting ladders right at there releasers, mains on the ground, adding injectors, running multiple pumps in series because they have leaks and sags and all sorts of wacky setups just so they can overcome the loss of cfms and hg's but yet you ask them and they claim to be experienced experts with the best tubing setups around too.

[RustyBuckets]

If one looks closely at the commercial lifter units they have a flapper valve to dump the sap as soon as vac is lost to the reservoir of the lifter. The line freezes and the reservoir dumps. When the line thaws the flap closes and stops any gravity flowing sap from going on the ground. Has one of these setups. It was dumping 30-50 gallons on the ground depending on if it was a sunny day and the line thawed quickly or cloudy and the line thawed very slowly if at all.


This is really odd you say this, I would much rather lose 30-50 gallons of sap on the ground than take a 7% daily sap production loss per inch of vac lossed by adding an injector. Now I dont use a commercial lifter but I would rather lose 30 gallons than 210 on a typical 3000 gallons sap run let alone a 2 plus gpt run day. I will let the tree gases add all the air that is needed to lift sap in a proper ladder system instead.

[BreezyHill]

Here we go again.
Rusty, you need to look at management from a realistic point of view. You cant say that adding an injector that will put less than.02 cfm into a system will have any negative affect on the entire production of a sugar bush unless your pump is rusty too. Well maintained equipment and designed system will work as I have said and has on our farm and on many others for decades.

If your pump is not adequate yes any leak will reduce production and the number is 5-7% production decrease for an inch of vac. But what you have over looked is that a slow moving ladder limits the production past the ladder. What I have seen for actual reductions on pooled ladders is in the 80-90% range. With some days 100% reduction as the line never thawed for the producer. The inclusion of an injector totally eliminated the problem and the taps were producing as well as the rest of the sugar bush.

If you look back into the history books you will see many instances where people have not looked at all the facts and judged production and science inaccurately due to lack of knowledge and misconception. Just in our industry you can look at vacuum systems and ROs that were one time thought to be bogus science.

So please refrain from uttering words against production techniques that work; as it makes one appear to be stuck in the past and unwilling to move forward with the advances of the times.

Remember as I have sated all along. If your system is tight you will need an injector. If it is not then the tree gases and your leaks will be adequate to make the ladder function. You can very easily see if your system is tight. install a new gauge at your pump and at the end of the furthest line. Check the system first thing in the morning when the trees are not flowing. If the gauges read the same your system is tight. If not then it is not. You can also check the outlet or exhaust of your pump. Hold a thread over the port if it moves then your system has air entering it somewhere. There are other ways that us ole producers with 45 years experience us but I will save those for another day.

Remember that the horse laying in the sunny lifeless...is just sunning itself.lol

[DaveB]

A needle valve seems cheap enough that I can add one and take note of production at the releaser and experiment if need be. From what I've read it seems like a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge type argument with each side having valid points.

[pls009]

A needle valve seems cheap enough that I can add one and take note of production at the releaser and experiment if need be. From what I've read it seems like a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge type argument with each side having valid points.

I agree! On a side note - I stopped at the local CDL dealer today to pick up some supplies for my ladder project and asked for his input on number of taps per lateral and also input regarding pooling and tight systems. He said that 15 taps per lateral has been pretty standard but they have been lowering that number down over the years and have some systems at 5-10 taps per ladder lateral. He also said that some folks with tight systems have had better luck with adding air by introducing a leaky tap or by having a ball valve at the end of the line. My point is that I agree about the Ford/Chevy/Dodge comment - seems to be different ways of getting things done. Those needle valves look like a great insurance policy to me even if I don't need them.

[BreezyHill]

A needle valve seems cheap enough that I can add one and take note of production at the releaser and experiment if need be. From what I've read it seems like a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge type argument with each side having valid points.

Agreed and I run Fords. LOL

And ran two til they were killed. but 495K on a 7.3 aint bad.

[RustyBuckets]

Here we go again.

Rusty, you need to look at management from a realistic point of view. You cant say that adding an injector that will put less than.02 cfm into a system will have any negative affect on the entire production of a sugar bush unless your pump is rusty too. Well maintained equipment and designed system will work as I have said and has on our farm and on many others for decades.
Yep here you go again lol. You do understand the % of sap loss per inch of lost vac right? I can assure you as you have stated in many comments to me that my pumps are more than adequate and have plenty of cfms in reserve. Yes I agree a well maintained system and design is key.


If your pump is not adequate yes any leak will reduce production and the number is 5-7% production decrease for an inch of vac. But what you have over looked is that a slow moving ladder limits the production past the ladder. What I have seen for actual reductions on pooled ladders is in the 80-90% range. With some days 100% reduction as the line never thawed for the producer. The inclusion of an injector totally eliminated the problem and the taps were producing as well as the rest of the sugar bush.
No I havent over looked a slow moving ladder when I opened my ears and mind to a properly setup ladder. Which does not include an injector. If you wont allow yourself to be opened minded and accept there is better ways to do things in this day and age then I guess adding injectors is the way to go. I can assure you I and a lot of smarter producers than I have moved away from adding a leak in there ladder systems a long time ago. I can also assure you that production numbers increased once I was shown how to set them up the most efficient way possible without losing vac levels. You keep bringing up freezing and thawing as well. You do know what happens when you have a pinhole leak under high pressure in a tubing system. Even above freezing temps will cause an early freeze in that section of line. I remember years ago when zero tanks were a thing of the past and mechanical releasers hit the market, many people had freezing problems from micro leaks around fittings and seals when temps were just hovering above freezing. Same thing happens when you inject air into a ladder. Seen it many times in the old days.

If you look back into the history books you will see many instances where people have not looked at all the facts and judged production and science inaccurately due to lack of knowledge and misconception. Just in our industry you can look at vacuum systems and ROs that were one time thought to be bogus science.
Never said once that it doesnt work, let me explain again, there are better more effective and productive ways to not purposely add a leak when one is trying to get the tightest system and the most productive system possible. Yes it may cost more, some pride may have to be swallowed to accept that there is a better way. The added expense of doing it right will put more sap in the tank.

So please refrain from uttering words against production techniques that work; as it makes one appear to be stuck in the past and unwilling to move forward with the advances of the times.

Thanks for the laugh Im not the one stuck in the past running 45 year old pumps and glass milking system releasers. And let me make it clear I dont care one bit who or how one gets there sap to the evaporator, I applaud anyone who does it and makes it work, however I wont preach about outdated systems every time this topic comes up. If one wants maximum return and this is a bit more than just a hobby and having fun I would highly suggest actually moving forward and take advantage of the equipment and technology that has surpassed these old ways.


If your system is tight you will need an injector. If it is not then the tree gases and your leaks will be adequate to make the ladder function. You can very easily see if your system is tight. install a new gauge at your pump and at the end of the furthest line. Check the system first thing in the morning when the trees are not flowing. If the gauges read the same your system is tight. If not then it is not. You can also check the outlet or exhaust of your pump. Hold a thread over the port if it moves then your system has air entering it somewhere. There are other ways that us ole producers with 45 years experience us but I will save those for another day.

Remember that the horse laying in the sunny lifeless...is just sunning itself.lol
Your first two sentences of this quote is correct but you left out.... but only if your ladders are not sized and set up properly per taps your trying to lift. An injector will work on and increase your sap yields when they are not setup to maximize production without purposely ruining a tight tubing system. I would also recommend in your comment about checking the gauges and them reading the same, that you test all the gauges to read the same first. One should individually test them all in one spot before installing them. Say at the releaser, I have seen many gauges give high or lower readings than others out of the same brand new box. Many producers have chased there tails when a gauge was at fault. Good Chat Ben I will turn the podium over to you to get the last comment lol.

[Clinkis]

It's great getting everyone's opinions and personal experience on this topic but it sure would be nice if we could talk about sap ladders without it always turning into a pissing match between certain people. I really want to learn about them but it makes me nervous to even mention them anymore.....let's keep it constructive!

[Super Sapper]

I agree with being interested in the various ways people do things and then find the way that works best for me. It seems that several people have found the right way to do it for their own sugarbush. I would think that an experiment next year would be a good idea to see what works best. It could also be a contest if people want. I would think that getting the highest vac at the end of the line would give the most sap. Monitoring vac before the ladder and at the end of the main to see the amount of vac loss would give a pretty good indication on how well the system works. From reading all the threads it seems that pooling is a vac killer and is what is needed to be eliminated. There also seems to be 2 ways to accomplish this, adding more risers on the ladder or adding a leaker. My suspicion is either will work if done properly in the right situation but will fail if not.

[BreezyHill]

I would think that an experiment next year would be a good idea to see what works best. It could also be a contest if people want. I would think that getting the highest vac at the end of the line would give the most sap. Monitoring vac before the ladder and at the end of the main to see the amount of vac loss would give a pretty good indication on how well the system works. From reading all the threads it seems that pooling is a vac killer and is what is needed to be eliminated.

Search a resent thread where Maple Flats added an injector this past season. I think you will find your answer to the question there.

Happy Searching!

[PerryFamily]

I currently have no sap ladders but I'm thinking I'm going to need one for next year to grab a small amount of trees (30 at best) that are pretty close to the releaser ( less than 100 feet), ladder would be about 10' away from the pump (atlas copco). I'm wondering if I could just run longer runs of 3/16 to pick up the taps and pull them up hill right into the releaser?
This pump runs 24/7 I think it should work
Height is 6' total if I used a ladder
Would be less material and time to setup as well with no mainline

[BreezyHill]

IMO I would put in the main to get the most production out of those trees. In the long run it will pay for the tubing and the time.

Can it be done on three lengths of 5/16? Yes but the reduction in production will be pretty dramatic comparied to installing a 3/4" main pulled tight to two J hooks.

Lets say 6 saddles for $15, the main is 100' for another $25, stars and the elbow inserts-$5. 4 tension grips at $60, 4 J hooks and two tighteners $10, and 4 hrs on a summer day when you have nothing better to do. LOL $60. $175. The injector I will supply for free.

Now you should be able to get 1/2 g/ tap but I will only use the 50% increase to pay off the tubing install. so .25 g on 30 taps is 7.5 gallons and we will only use bulk sale price of $2.25 x 11 x 7.5 = $185.62. So the extra $10.62 is invested into a gift for who ever helped you install the tubing. The second year you be greedy and go buy a nice chair for the sugar house. LOL

IMO doing things on the cheap does not pay off well over time.

I would also have a ball valve on the end of the line with a vac gauge that is screwed into the end so it can be isolated and removed if you want to flush the line with water or wash solution. This way your gauge can be removed and the line is still sealed. Blue Block the threads and she will not leak and will be easy to remove with a wrench.

Ben

[keill4]

IMO I would put in the main to get the most production out of those trees. In the long run it will pay for the tubing and the time.

Can it be done on three lengths of 5/16? Yes but the reduction in production will be pretty dramatic comparied to installing a 3/4" main pulled tight to two J hooks.

Lets say 6 saddles for $15, the main is 100' for another $25, stars and the elbow inserts-$5. 4 tension grips at $60, 4 J hooks and two tighteners $10, and 4 hrs on a summer day when you have nothing better to do. LOL $60. $175. The injector I will supply for free.

Now you should be able to get 1/2 g/ tap but I will only use the 50% increase to pay off the tubing install. so .25 g on 30 taps is 7.5 gallons and we will only use bulk sale price of $2.25 x 11 x 7.5 = $185.62. So the extra $10.62 is invested into a gift for who ever helped you install the tubing. The second year you be greedy and go buy a nice chair for the sugar house. LOL

IMO doing things on the cheap does not pay off well over time.

I would also have a ball valve on the end of the line with a vac gauge that is screwed into the end so it can be isolated and removed if you want to flush the line with water or wash solution. This way your gauge can be removed and the line is still sealed. Blue Block the threads and she will not leak and will be easy to remove with a wrench.

Ben

We need some help.
Vaccum leaving our sugarhouse is 27" after our ladder its 18" vac. Ladder is 3" manifold with 5 1/2" risers pulling up 14 feet. We have 580 taps. We checked for leaks can't locate any that would change it this drastic. We have puddling in the last 2 t's, the first 3 are dry. What should we look for? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[blissville maples]

Bottom line with sap ladders is if you have alot pooling sap your losing vaccum past it. A small leak is essential if the sap ladder is tight, However too much and touch lose again...I have 4 ladders I use a controlled air leak via a plug or tap and sometimes a piece of electrical tape with a slit in it...Does same thing g as air injection for a couple bucks....Just watch for bugs plugging the hole at end of season as they seek the sap

[BreezyHill]

We need some help.
Vaccum leaving our sugarhouse is 27" after our ladder its 18" vac. Ladder is 3" manifold with 5 1/2" risers pulling up 14 feet. We have 580 taps. We checked for leaks can't locate any that would change it this drastic. We have puddling in the last 2 t's, the first 3 are dry. What should we look for? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Need a couple of details to get a grasp on your setup.
What size is the feeder main?

I am going to guess that you have a 1" feeder to the bottom of the ladder. What is most likely happening is that your system is so tight that you don't have enough bubbles to convey the sap up the risers quicky.
What the pool of sap does is like a hose put into your gas tank to fill a 5 gallon can. You suck and suck for all you can but you cant get the gas past the opening of the filler neck. You are sucking on the sap but you cant get that suction past the pool.

So what you need to do is to go between 25 and 50 back toward the terminal end of the mainline( away from the ladder), and install a saddle and a 1/8" brass needle valve. On ebay they are cheap but at Homedepot they will be around $10. This will allow you to introduce micro bubbles into the main that will be sucked up the ladder with sap riding on the bubbles.

Now the next thing you saw was that not all risers had sap. There could be a blockage or it could be that the tee to each of the risers is not getting equal flow. Unbalanced flow will allow more or even all the bubbles to go up one riser and this will cause pooling because not all of a 1" main will go up a single riser at peak flow.

1633616337

Note in the pic that the risers are not all straight. The clamps were loosened just enough to twist each tee to get a balanced flow.

The following is an example of a screw up. This is the bottom of a 6 star ladder. Apparently I was brain dead from working all day and put it on up down side up. In my defense it was a long day and this was done about 9 pm in Feb and it was really cold and the batteries were dying.
16338

The next day temps went up and the ladder was not working well at all so I went looking for an issue. About 20 minutes and the ladder was running great.

What was happening was the air and tree gases were running down the top side of the main and right up the risers. Sap stayed on the bottom and the main pooled a long ways back. I pulled a tap past the pool and the sap rushed up the ladder. Reinstalled the spout and pulled the end piece from the main got things right and hammer it back in and tightened the clamp.

When I made my first 1/2" ladder I used 5 risers. It should have been 4 to equal the same volume of a 1" main. on a 3/4" main I use 2 1/2" risers.

let me know if this doesn't solve your issue.

Ben

[BreezyHill]

Below is what I did to combat the bug issue in late season. No major amount of sap gets by the ball when the vac is off so no bugs.
16340

This is a Delaval CFM tester. The little hole on the top of the gray plastic piece is a hole that will produce 2 cfms. I had some 28 ga needles in our horse barn and thought that would be a great size for a leak for a ladder. Not even close. 28 ga is a "painless" needle size smaller than a mechanical pencil lead. It was way to much so I tried the needle valve. All the injectors for all the ladders which is around 11 or 12 don't make 1/10th of the size of the hole on the tester.
16339

We wok our butts of to chase down and plug leaks yet we inject air in parts of the system...I know it sounds wrong but it works. Provided that is the problem.

I had similar issue and could not get a ladder to work...wood chips in the stars.

[blissville maples]

Breezy- does the sap travel up the one inch blue lines?? I've seen something like this locally and have been curious about it...I use the 5/16 as risers..... Also what's your vac on the backside of the ladder?? Out of curiosity and since it's slowing I'm going to bring my gauge with me today and check mine....

[BreezyHill]

Three or 4 seasons ago I tried 1" and had been using a 3/4" riser.

They take a bunch more air to make a bubble large enough to fill the line and push the sap up. The second issue is that a larger diameter bubble will have a larger angled area that allows the sap to run back down the wall of the riser. And possibly the worst for me was the length of time it takes to thaw those larger pipes. I have a brook that is 60' from the sugar house. The cold flows down across the fields and into the brook bed. So the mains that cross the brook valley will freeze at least 30 minutes before the sugar bush. So the riser will have a good amount of ice in the am. On a cloudy 35 degree day I can have most of my bushes running on high vac but the ladder will still be frozen.

My first 1/2" riser ladder was next to a 1" riser. it was an hour faster thawing in the morning and ran a good 30 minutes longer in the pm. a few days latter it was 36 and the 1" was still froze tight and I commenced to building the manifold and mid day I installed that ladder. Best thing I ever did that season.

I have changed out ladders #1-3 on a 7 ladder series and plan to change #4 & 5 this summer to the 1/2" risers.

1/2" thaws faster than the 5/16 and I think it is due to the surface area the sunny hits.

16351 In this pic the riser is flowing and the nail I had to put in the tree has sap leaking out and freezing. Temp gauge for the vac pump read 33 degrees

Black risers will thaw faster but you cant see to adjust the injectors.

One person suggested installing a check valve at the bottom of the ladder and let the sap drain on the ground...but I am only going to loose the new sap out of the main since the ladder will have sap in it when it freezes in the evening. The sap in the main also works to speed the thaw in the am as it is sucked up through little cracks and on the pipe wall as it thaws.

This moving ice is another reason to have no angles at the top of the riser when entering the manifold. a ben will catch the ice or slush and it will pack in and slow the thawing.

16353 This is a 1.5" Pyrex glass milk line. What I would see happening in the bush I would come back in and watch this mini ladder to see if I could figure out why it was happening. I learned a lot from this little pipe. It only has around 175 taps on it but that sap runs from Vermont state all the way to New York. http://mapletrader.com/community/images/icons/icon7.png Yes 90% of my taps are on the VT side of the Farm and the sugar house is about 300' in NY.

Found this educational pic. There is a tiny leak in the fitting and the air bubbling in is blocking the slow flow of sap in the early am. Doesn't affect the gauge reading but this leak is pooling the sap. I use a food grade grease like Crisco to seal leaks on the glass fittings.
16352

This is why I put an injector on the top of the main and not on a lateral line.

Pics are worth a thousand words they say. so the pic with the releaser was an attempt to catch the waves that happen on a pool of sap in the clear 3/4" line. Didn't come out as I had hoped. The waves in a pool of sap at the bottom of a ladder is limited vac transfer. When I have this happening I will loose an 1" to 2" after the third ladder.

If there is a tube width pool then I loose 4+ inches of vac.

To clear a pool I open an injector and the sap floods into the releaser. I have toyed around with putting a light outside the sugar house so I could see when the releaser pump is started. I can see the sugar house from ladders 1-3 on the series line and half way to #4.

I have another manifold design I am going to try so that I can split my lines to #3 into a wet line and a dry line. The idea is to use bushing reducers on a 3" to 2" using tees on the 3". To keep the risers straight into the manifold is paramount. So if the mains connect to the 3" and the risers enter from the tee of sides I can reduce the chance of blocking a riser. I also have a 1" main that comes into the top manifold from a laterial of another level of the bush.

Well got to help the wife thaw a calf that was dropped in the mud. Never a dule moment on this farm.