Bigger rig or RO?

[tmessier79]

I have the capacity to triple my operation, but don't because of my time restrictions and boiling capacity on my 2x8. I'm on the fence if I should invest in an RO, or buy a much larger used evaporator, like a 3x12 or 4x12 and go all out next year. I could probably buy a decent older evaporator for less than an RO and not have to heat my sugar house. Anyone out there had a tough time deciding? I know most would say the RO, but there's something nostalgic about big old wood fired evaporators that draws me over an RO. I don't mind cutting lots of wood, I just can't be up all night boiling because I get up real early for work. Any thoughts?

[motowbrowne]

I'm with you on the big rigs. I've never seen anything bigger than a 5x16 wood-fired rig boiling personally, but I'd love to find someone running a 6x18 on wood and help them cook for a day. I bet it's something to see!

I am in a similar place to you right now. In anticipation of more sap next season I just bought a used 4x14. I also don't mind cutting wood (actually I love doing it). My least favorite part about making syrup is plumbing, so to me ROs just don't hold any appeal.

If you're considering a used 3 or 4x12, get a quote from Lapierre and Thor on a new rig. You might be surprised.

[wiam]

An RO will buy more time than a bigger rig. Also an RO can be removing water when you are not there or sleeping. Mine does both.

[Russell Lampron]

I'm a fan of the big RO small evaporator set up. The efficiency gain will be much higher than just getting a bigger evaporator. When I sweeten my sap to 16% I can draw off as much syrup in an hour as the guy up the road with a 4x14 and steamaway. I'm doing that with a 125 RO and 2x6 evaporator. I would recommend an expandable 600 RO for you. That way you can add another tower and double the capacity.

While the RO is removing water I can be where the money is made fixing vacuum leaks and when it's time to boil it takes a fraction of the time. Sometime I have the RO concentrating while I'm sleeping but most of the time I start it when I leave for work in the morning and start the second pass when I get home from work.

[heus]

Also dont forget that a big evaporator will be much harder to clean. You will possibly need a crane system to pick up your flue pan for end the the year cleaning.

[BAP]

I would choose going with which item you are going to enjoy the most operating. It's not much fun running a piece of equipment you don't enjoy using. R/O's are a great technological device but if you don't have enough power available or a way to get rid of the water or a way to dispose of the wash water, then it can be a problem. Also while the machines have become much in terms of quality and reliability when they go down you are screwed until you can get someone to come fix it or drive hours after parts. If you really enjoy cutting wood and feeding the evaporator then that would be the choice for now. You can always in the future buy a R/O to reduce your boiling time if you need to. In the long run, sugaring is going to be more fun and enjoyable if you have the equipment that you like to operate, not the equipment that others feel you should have.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

There is no accounting for individual taste, that being said, I've never heard of anyone who having gone to an RO would then willing switch back to boiling raw sap (excluding an emergency).

[Tater]

Is there any hypothetical possibility of expanding more (or buying bulk sap) after tripling the current size? If so, you'll be buying a larger evaporator sometime. I'd get a used evaporator if I could find a good deal on one. But if you never expand any more, I'd think the efficiency of the RO would make it the better choice.

[steam maker]

What style you looking for ? Cross flow or reversible ?? My 4 by 12 cross flow mite be for sale 😀😀😀😀

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I boiled over 17,000 gallons on a 2x8 with about 1.5 cords of wood, enough said.

[n8hutch]

Only thing I would Add is from what I've seen when boiling high concentrate on a small rig 2x6-2x8. That the syrup pan needs to be cleaned much more often. Also you don't have time to do much other than stoke the fire and watch the auto Draw & pan levels. You've got to hustle to keep up with them. I think boiling on an larger rig is probably a bit slower paced.

Having said that I'd like to get an R.O myself.

[Clinkis]

I couldn't imagine making syrup now without an RO. The fuel savings are huge but the biggest thing for me is the time savings. I also work away from my farm so my boiling time is limited. I always joke with my friends that my RO saved my marriage!

But, as others have mentioned, since this is a source of enjoyment for you go with what you will enjoy the most. I enjoy running my RO but if it's not your thing then go with a bigger evaporator. That said, I think once you used an RO you would never want to be without one.

[Clamer33]

Im in the same position as you we are at 800 taps and I'm running a 2x8 old school evaporator. If it wasn't for the CDL 250 Hobby RO, I don't know what I would do. However with expanding over the next two years to 1500+ taps, the setup we have is to small.. We are looking at a either a 3x10 or 3x12 with all the bells and whistles, plus upgrading to a 600 expandable RO. I love having the RO doing most of the work, and I also hate boiling 10-12 hrs a day and changing pans like crazy on a smaller rig. So I say go for both. Plus I can assure you that when your RO goes down, ours did the first hour we had it running, you will be pissed. WE shut the pumps off and where down for 5 days till a CDL tech came with a new motor under warranty. I think that if you rely on an evaporator and RO setup. You should be a position that you only need to boil for 2 or 3 hours on a normal day. That way if failure of the RO happens and they do, you can still boil the old way and not sit there idle waiting for parts, and not collecting sap that makes us money!

Just my ten cents

[wiam]

Only thing I would Add is from what I've seen when boiling high concentrate on a small rig 2x6-2x8. That the syrup pan needs to be cleaned much more often. Also you don't have time to do much other than stoke the fire and watch the auto Draw & pan levels. You've got to hustle to keep up with them. I think boiling on an larger rig is probably a bit slower paced.

Having said that I'd like to get an R.O myself.

When I was boiling 18% on a 2x6 I would stop at 3 hrs to empty front pan and fill with permeate. Most days I did not boil over 3 hours anyway. My guess is you will be drawing same amount /hour. Just different way to remove water. Also remember filtering needs will change with making syrup faster. I went from the 2x6 to a 3x12 this year. Glad I upgraded to a 10" press.

[abbott]

I'm running a 40"x10' with no enhancements to make 3-400 gallons syrup a year on 800+ taps. Could see going as high as 1500 taps, all running straight to the sap house. But I'm a half mile from electricity and would also have a hard time going with an RO on principle. But knowing that my bias against RO has no real defense... I may end up going there eventually.

I would prefer to get a much more efficient arch (AOF) whether I buy or build it and add a steamaway to that to push my boil rate from 85 gph to possibly 200 gph. And hopefully not increase wood usage in doing it.

I can tell you I much prefer to spend my time boiling then to spend it hauling sap through snow and mud to get it to an RO!

[PACMAN]

This is the first year i have used an RO from Deer run Maple. I have a 2 by 8 and now make 5 gal of syrup an hour. I do not haul sap as it is pumped to the sugar house,and no I dont have power. Power is 4 miles away. To each there own on how to get the job done, but I dont mind cutting wood but if I dont have to cut as much wood to feed the evaporator than I can be doing something else. Case in point, Easter Sunday we got 1400 gal of sap and we started boiling at 11 am. We were done and cleaned up and home having Easter dinner at 7 pm. I left the vacuum pump on and had another 500 gal waiting for me the next morning plus another 600 that came in that day.We were done at 4 that day. For me, an RO is the only way to go. But like I said to each there own.

[Clamer33]

I don't have hydro either, I run a Honda Generator at the pump house and a 15 kw generator at the sugarhouse. You can pick up construction grade 15-25kw Gensets used for 3-6k everyday. I don't know how anyone could run any kinda sugarbush without some type of hydro these days. And I'm 2 km from any hydro source. Anything is possible

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't clean the syrup pan any more, actually less boiling 12% vs boiling raw sap. I get 50 to 100 gallon of syrup through it before it needs cleaned. I usually don't boil more than 2 hours and I reverse flow at end of every boil for the next day.

I don't use an auto drawoff either, just keep a constant stream of syrup coming out the drawoff just about all the time.

[tmessier79]

I would choose going with which item you are going to enjoy the most operating. It's not much fun running a piece of equipment you don't enjoy using. R/O's are a great technological device but if you don't have enough power available or a way to get rid of the water or a way to dispose of the wash water, then it can be a problem. Also while the machines have become much in terms of quality and reliability when they go down you are screwed until you can get someone to come fix it or drive hours after parts. If you really enjoy cutting wood and feeding the evaporator then that would be the choice for now. You can always in the future buy a R/O to reduce your boiling time if you need to. In the long run, sugaring is going to be more fun and enjoyable if you have the equipment that you like to operate, not the equipment that others feel you should have.
That's really solid advice. Lots of options...

[tmessier79]

Is there any hypothetical possibility of expanding more (or buying bulk sap) after tripling the current size? If so, you'll be buying a larger evaporator sometime. I'd get a used evaporator if I could find a good deal on one. But if you never expand any more, I'd think the efficiency of the RO would make it the better choice.

700 would round out my property. The neighbors have about the same that I could tap, but I don't think I would ever pursue leases.

[tmessier79]

What style you looking for ? Cross flow or reversible ?? My 4 by 12 cross flow mite be for sale 😀😀😀😀

I have boiled on both and currently have reversible flow, which I prefer. However, for the right price, I would consider anything. One advantage of an older, large evaporator is that they can be found very inexpensively. Seems like nice ROs on the smaller side seal the second they are posted.

[Russell Lampron]

700 would round out my property. The neighbors have about the same that I could tap, but I don't think I would ever pursue leases.

You are saying that you could possibly have 1400 taps if you max out your woods and tap the neighbors. When you have a good run that could be 2800 gallons of sap in one day. Granted that doesn't happen very often but it could. If you get a 4x12 evaporator and have it tweaked enough to get 200 gallons per hour you are looking at 14 hours of boiling for just for that day. If you get an equally good run the next day you are going to be way behind and losing sleep.

With a properly sized RO you can take 1/2 of the water out in a single pass cutting your boiling time in half without even getting the concentrate very sweet. Do a second pass and you are in the 8% range and cutting 3 or so more hours off of the boiling time. Squeeze the concentrate a little more to get into the mid teens and you are in bed at a reasonable hour and all caught up for the next day's run. That's figuring on getting both the 4x12 and RO together. Keeping your current evaporator the boiling times will be longer but I think you're seeing where I am going here. Concentrate the 2800 gallons down to 300 gallons and you're looking at 6 hours of boiling with your 2x8 if you're getting 50 gph out of it.

Now if you were to buy the 4x12 and add a high efficiency arch and Steamaway you are getting into the price range or more than the RO would cost and still not in the gph range of adding the RO. Used 600 gph RO's are going for $8000 and up. A new Lapierre 600 is about $13000. You don't need to heat the whole sugarhouse either. Build a small insulated room that can be heated with a small electric heater and you're good to go. The other things to add to the expense of the RO install are the wiring and plumbing and additional tanks.

[abbott]

I don't have hydro either, I run a Honda Generator at the pump house and a 15 kw generator at the sugarhouse. You can pick up construction grade 15-25kw Gensets used for 3-6k everyday. I don't know how anyone could run any kinda sugarbush without some type of hydro these days. And I'm 2 km from any hydro source. Anything is possible

What kind of fuel is the 15 kw generator running on and how much fuel do you use? RO room needs to stay above freezing, right? How is that accomplished?

Do you start the RO and do something else for a while before you can boil?

I feel like a problem lots of us back-woods do-it-yourself sugarmakers have is that we never get the chance to get out and see what others with similarly sized operations are doing.

I currently have my vacuum pump running directly off a Honda engine, but no other power source. I will start running a generator eventually... one of the decisions I need to make is whether to run the vacuum off the generator or keep it on its own engine. Its really nice to be able to turn down the engine and make a gallon of gas last for 7 hrs.

[Clamer33]

My generator runs on diesel. Running at about 80% with everything running vacuum pumps, RO light etc. Im burning about 10-15 gallons in 24 hours. On avg because not everything runs around the clock. I burn about 5-10 gallons a day. At the most. Most days just over 5 gallons. That is with in on high rev. When I'm just out working and don't run the pumps or any larger motors I run the generator on idle, it will run for half a week or more on a tank. I avg 500-1000 hrs a season on the generator. This year I have put on 600+ hours since the first of MArch and we have been working out there since late December most days. I bought it for 2800. And have only put about 400 into it. Then just oil changes every 400hrs. It has been the best money spent since the RO. But as I upgrade this year, I will be looking for a larger unit because I need more power for the larger RO and evaporator. As I get ready to sell it this year I know I can get want I have into it. So that is well spent money in my mind.

[abbott]

Thanks for the info. Most years, most days, I walk to the sap house (1/2 mile) so I'm thinking about going with diesel and having a full bulk fuel tank in place before the snow gets deep. When you say it can run for a half a week or more on a tank... what size tank are we talking?

[Clamer33]

I just looked in the book. It says 1.89gal/hr 7.2L/.h. I'm not sure of the tank size. Its on a trailer so that is the main tank. The tank that is on the unit is blocked off. If I had to guess it is somewhere around 25-30 gallons. I know that next year I will also have a bulk tank there. For the past two years we have been shuttling a 55G drum and 4- 5 gallon cans back and that sucks. But once the season starts the road is only passable by four wheeler. The rest of the year from May to the End of Feb I can drive back. When I leave the vacuum pump on for the evening, I top it up at night say 8pm. Then when I return in the morning I look at it, most times I wait to 6 or 8pm the next day and throw 2- 5 gallon jugs in. Then repeat the next day.

[Clamer33]

About the fuel usage numbers, I'm going to think that is at max throttle. Because I have never used that amount of fuel in 2 seasons of running per an hour.

[tmessier79]

I am considering two potential evaporators for upsizing, a 4x14 and a 5x12. Both have stainless soldered pans. I'm a bit hesitant to go back to soldered pans after buying nice new welded pans for my 2x8 two years ago. Anyone know the evaporation rate for these units? Am I nuts for considering getting rid of my very nice 2x8 for a big OLD soldered evaporator?

[GeneralStark]

I am considering two potential evaporators for upsizing, a 4x14 and a 5x12. Both have stainless soldered pans. I'm a bit hesitant to go back to soldered pans after buying nice new welded pans for my 2x8 two years ago. Anyone know the evaporation rate for these units? Am I nuts for considering getting rid of my very nice 2x8 for a big OLD soldered evaporator?

Yes. Get an RO. I have never heard anyone say: "man I wish I could go back to the days of boiling raw sap" once they got one.

[Maple Man 85]

Would a 4x14 high efficiency wood fired rig with a 1200 RO support 10,000 taps on vac or would the RO have to be upsized to 1800??? I plan to do a combination of both but in the growth stages I am trying to size my equipment so I don't have to trade it in and spend extra to purchase larger pieces.

I am thinking by running a 4x14 with a 600 RO the first year on 3500 taps and then as we ramp up we'll purchase a 2nd RO which then our 600 RO will become the backup just incase our primary goes down.

Has anyone else done this???

[ennismaple]

There is no accounting for individual taste, that being said, I've never heard of anyone who having gone to an RO would then willing switch back to boiling raw sap (excluding an emergency).

Amen brother! There are a lot of things that get neglected around the sugar camp and woods if you spend a lot of time boiling. Our RO allows us to be a 2-man operation: one boiling and one gathering (none of our sap comes to the camp). We can turn on the RO and go out to the woods for a few hours to check lines, do repairs and maintenance on equipment or any of the other million tasks that need to be done.

I too enjoy cutting and splitting evaporator wood. This season we would have needed 40 full chord to make what we pushed through instead of the 12 chord we burned. The time saved I can spend with my family, fishing, hunting, golfing or improving the tubing in my woods.

Go boil with someone who uses an RO and you'll see why boiling concentrate is so much fun. My cousins have the exact same Force 5 as we do and they can make 4-5 gallons per hour. I can make that same amount in 15 minutes! It might seem annoying to some but to me the sound of the auto-runoff opening and closing several times per minute is music to my ears.

[unc23win]

Would a 4x14 high efficiency wood fired rig with a 1200 RO support 10,000 taps on vac or would the RO have to be upsized to 1800??? I plan to do a combination of both but in the growth stages I am trying to size my equipment so I don't have to trade it in and spend extra to purchase larger pieces.

I am thinking by running a 4x14 with a 600 RO the first year on 3500 taps and then as we ramp up we'll purchase a 2nd RO which then our 600 RO will become the backup just incase our primary goes down.

Has anyone else done this???

It depends on what you mean by high efficiency 4x14 one with piggy back and all will process more concentrate per hour than your 600 and some cases 1200gph RO can produce. Most producers that I know who have 10,0000 have 4 or more membranes simply because you can concentrate higher and that saves time and money. I actually met someone who has 2400gph RO and a 3x8 maybe 3x10 evaporator on 5000 taps he recirculates to 20% Brix which saves wood and time boiling but it takes a while to recirculate that producer doesn't have a day job so he has time to wait. Also although the ideas of a back up RO sounds nice you would probably end up using it as well to get higher concentrate. It's a vicious cycle.

[ennismaple]

Would a 4x14 high efficiency wood fired rig with a 1200 RO support 10,000 taps on vac or would the RO have to be upsized to 1800??? I plan to do a combination of both but in the growth stages I am trying to size my equipment so I don't have to trade it in and spend extra to purchase larger pieces.

I am thinking by running a 4x14 with a 600 RO the first year on 3500 taps and then as we ramp up we'll purchase a 2nd RO which then our 600 RO will become the backup just incase our primary goes down.

Has anyone else done this???

We're running 2 towers and a 3.5x14 on 4600 taps. I wouldn't go smaller than 3 towers for 10,000 taps and would recommend 4.

Our sap ran at better than 800 GPH at times this season - meaning we lost ground through the day because the 2 towers in series pushes through a bit over 700 GPH, depending on how low you go on the concentrate flow.

I'm not sure how larger units are plumbed but let's assume that if you had 4 towers they would be 2 sets of 2 towers in series. That equates to 1400+ GPH of sap you can process. If you get 1 gallon of sap per tap (10,000 per day) that's just over 7 hours of RO time. You can probably boil for 5 hours to process the concentrate.

[tmessier79]

Yes. Get an RO. I have never heard anyone say: "man I wish I could go back to the days of boiling raw sap" once they got one.
Ok, I completely hear the validity in your point. Question though...how much space would a small RO require, say 250 gph, and heating it through the season is absolutely critical correct?

[Bucket Head]

Many guy's build an insulated, closet-like enclosure for their units. Does'nt take up much space at all. Freezing is not good for them! Some units claim they can freeze, but...
A small space heater, even just some light bulbs will keep a small space above freezing.

[wiam]

Ok, I completely hear the validity in your point. Question though...how much space would a small RO require, say 250 gph, and heating it through the season is absolutely critical correct?
If the membranes are removed to a non freezing space the machine could be allowed to freeze if all water can be drained.

[jmayerl]

Ok, I completely hear the validity in your point. Question though...how much space would a small RO require, say 250 gph, and heating it through the season is absolutely critical correct?
A deer run 250 is about 3 feet wide, 2 feet deep, and 5 feet tall

[Russell Lampron]

I built a 6x5 insulated room for my RO that I heated with a small space heater. There was room enough for the RO, wash tank and plumbing. When I opened the door the front of the RO was right there for easy access to the prefilter and control panel. I have a small propane heater for back up if the power if out.

I have since remodeled my sugarhouse and have a 12x9 room that is insulated and paneled that is also my filtering and canning room. It is heated with a Modine heater that runs off of my outdoor wood boiler.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Remember when sizing an RO, you need to stop and wash them every 4 hours or 5 hours max. You take care of it then it will return the favor and take care of you. I soap wash mine every use even if it is getting used again later in day.

[markcasper]

Remember when sizing an RO, you need to stop and wash them every 4 hours or 5 hours max. .I don't know of anybody that does a wash every 4 hours. If I run 3000 plus gallons through on the first pass, I'll do a good rinse before I start concentrating the concentrate and sending to the head tank, but a soap wash takes at least 3 hours and noway that is going to happen. The key is permeate, permeate, permeate, save as much as you can and send it all through the machine before sending down the drain, even if you have to fill all the empty sap tanks up to save it.

[ennismaple]

We do a short rinse every 4 hours - 5 minutes of flushing the membranes to the concentrate take followed by 15 minutes of rinse that goes down the drain. The performance of the membranes comes back to a higher flow rate and it takes some pressure off the pumps. It is well worth the time to do a rinse mid day.

[BAP]

Usually to keep optimum performance, doing a rinse every 4-5 hours is worth the effort. Then a good wash at the end of the day.