The Intentional Production of Off-Flavored Syrup

[GeneralStark]

Starting in 2012 I began to notice sugarmakers in my region of VT, and north of here (perhaps they do in Southern VT as well, but I don't get down there as much), boiling well after I had stopped due to the appearance of buddy off flavor. I'm not talking a few days but instead several weeks. In some cases the trees had very clearly budded and were even starting to produce leaves. (And no they were not just boiling to clean their pans they were making syrup!) I couldn't quite wrap my head around this. What was up with these people? Could they just not let go of the season? Had they found a market for buddy syrup? Did they have nothing better to do? Were they just excessively greedy? Were they crazy?

Anyway, this began a fascination with this observation and I started to ask around and talk to other sugarmakers and industry leaders about this phenomenon. 2012 was the first real year it seems of intentionally producing large quantities of buddy syrup. Almost all of the syrup made in N. America after March 18th was buddy to some degree. Anyone who sugared that years remembers it. It was a bad year. Really bad, and for anyone that relied on the income from sugaring, they kept going in hope of making enough income to survive. One large producer in the area kept going for a while, and more than half of their crop (so the story goes) was buddy. The packers bought it because the season had been so bad and they knew they had to help their producers out. And they have a market for it....to a point. Much of that syrup still sits in warehouses today and while it is being sold, there is most definitely a surplus of buddy syrup.

There are many off flavors that can occur in maple syrup. Some occur naturally due to compounds the tree produces, and some are due to processing errors. Anyone who sugars makes some. There is no way around it. Often it ends up being sold to packers at a lower price as "commercial" or "processing" grade. To confuse things a bit more, in VT, syrup darker than a certain point was considered commercial until the new grading system took effect. So, some still consider very dark syrup to be commercial or processing syrup. I mention all this because the point of this discussion is the intentional production of buddy syrup, one specific off flavor that is very distinguishable among all others.

There is very clearly an issue with overall syrup quality on the market decreasing in recent years. For more info. on this if you are unaware of this issue, refer to this article by Michael Farrell.

http://www.omspa.ca/news/

If this is the case, then why do producers intentionally make low quality syrup? Sure you will make some at the end of the season, but why do people keep going. I have been wrestling with this question for several years and in my research on the matter it has lead to more questions. There is not a straight forward answer unfortunately, though the profit incentive seems to be the primary reason people do it. Personally, I strive to make the best syrup possible and while this does not always happen I do a pretty good job. When the syrup starts to taste buddy, I stop. Simple as that. In my mind there is no need to continue. None. But for others, it is not so clear and this is where the perspectives become more conflicted and inconsistent in many ways.

One of the main reasons sugarmakers make buddy syrup is because the packers will buy it and in three of the last four seasons (not including 2016) they were paid pretty well for it. Several large packers and industry leaders have told me that they do it to keep their producers happy because if they don't someone else will. This unfortunately has perpetuated a myth that there is a big market for this syrup, or that they can bury the flavor by blending it, or they can make sugar with it, etc. There is a market for it, and some suggest the holy grail of sugaring is to actually really develop ways to better utilize this syrup. Then people can keep going and make it and get paid well for it, and the packers can sell it all. But the industry is not there yet and buddy flavor is still one of the most difficult off flavors to hide. That said, there is indeed a market and while packers will give some clue as to what the buyers of this syrup are doing with it, they are reluctant to tell the whole story because the market for buyers of it is very competitive. Especially now that the Federation has dropped the price on this syrup to incredibly low prices in hopes of liquidating it.

Despite early predictions, 2016 has been a good season, and for many in the major producing region it has been very good. Despite this, and despite some packers already setting their price for buddy syrup very low, some producers (as evidenced by a few comments in the VT thread) plan on filling barrels with buddy syrup. I still don't get it. Why would you make syrup that will yield less than $11/gal.? Have you just not realized the price? Are you still living in the past, when due to low production years (including 2014 and 2015), higher prices for buddy syrup were paid? Don't producers realize there is too much of this syrup out there and in some cases is ending up in retail packages? Don't sugarmakers care about overall syrup quality trends in the marketplace? Are some only concerned about their own personal interests?

[AdirondackSap]

Ive been bitting my tonque whether i should re[ly to your post. I make maple syrup for a living. Most of my income comes from making syrup now You would have to be a complete moron not to make syrup if you have sap. There is a huge market for buddy syrup my friend. You almost offend me its like leaving fruit to rot on the ground. Heck even the apples that have fallen to the ground have a use like cider. Just because its not the syrup you would pour on your pancakes doesnt mean it doesnt have its use. Like maple flavoring. Also when you have thousands of tapos you need to make syrup to cover your cost. If your in it to make money not let it fall to the ground. I couldnt imagine using quality syrup as a maple flavoring.

[ryebrye]

There's an article called "when to stop" hosted by the proctor maple research center that talks about the economics of making commercial syrup:

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/When%20to%20Stop%20-%20Some%20Factors%20Affecting%20The%20Economics%20 of%20Processing%20Grade%20Syrup.pdf

I think that some of the producers have found ways around what they call buddy syrup. One guy I know has a process where he keeps heating it and adding water to it to get back to density (very similar the process you would use to remove metabolism off flavor) - he claims he can get rid of the buddy flavor.

As far as timing goes - you may have more soft maples? The joke around here is that "with high vacuum, the buds stay sucked in and can't pop out" (obviously this isn't true) - but maple stands of exclusively hard maples can go much longer than ones with soft maples in the mix. The primary person I bring my sap to only makes retail syrup and he does stop sooner than most, but his taps usually dry up long before it buds. I've been using CV2 spouts and my taps have run a week or two longer than his taps (last year almost 1/3 of my total sap came after he had shut down - my taps ran until April 18th last year and the sap got cloudy but tasting it / test boiling it showed that the stuff was not buddy, so I kept hauling it to another producer)

[psparr]

If someone's going to buy it, someone's going to make it. Pretty easy answer if you ask me.

[motowbrowne]

I don't think you should let it bother you General. If there's a market for it, people are gonna make it. If the market gets flooded, the price will come down and less will be made.

Not sure why you let it get under your skin that other producers make commercial syrup...

[GeneralStark]

Just to clarify, it doesn't "get under my skin" at all. On some level I do understand why people do it, especially when they were getting paid $2/lb. for it. It is a topic I find very interesting on many levels. Especially the fact that you have the largest packers in the NE saying "don't make any more of it" but they still buy it. And the fact that while there is a market, it is currently very limited compared to the amount that has been produced.

I am conflicted every season because I keep getting sap in large quantities after the flavor goes south. If I could find a market for it I would make it until the leaves came out.

By the way if anyone wants to come pick it up I have plenty of buddy sap available. PM me.

[PARKER MAPLE]

My buyer says make it as long as you can regardless. As long as it goes through the press I'm boiling. Money is money
PM

[motowbrowne]

The reason they make it is for the money. Not sure what else you're looking for.

We syrup producers own tens of thousands of dollars of specialized equipment that is very good at doing it's job. And we get to use it for 3-6 weeks per year. I understand why guys want to keep going as long as possible.

Now it is possible that people are making commercial at a loss without realizing it. In that case, yes, it would definitely be better to pull the plug.

[GeneralStark]

Ive been bitting my tonque whether i should re[ly to your post. I make maple syrup for a living. Most of my income comes from making syrup now You would have to be a complete moron not to make syrup if you have sap. There is a huge market for buddy syrup my friend. You almost offend me its like leaving fruit to rot on the ground. Heck even the apples that have fallen to the ground have a use like cider. Just because its not the syrup you would pour on your pancakes doesnt mean it doesnt have its use. Like maple flavoring. Also when you have thousands of tapos you need to make syrup to cover your cost. If your in it to make money not let it fall to the ground. I couldnt imagine using quality syrup as a maple flavoring.

No reason to bite your tongue. Just discussing ideas and opinions on a public forum...

What I have learned is that there is not a huge market for buddy syrup and in fact there is too much of it out there. This is why the price is down for many packers. If you don't mind me asking, what will you be paid this year for buddy syrup?

Also, "maple flavoring" is really not an option with buddy syrup. It can be used as a sweetener in certain applications where the flavors overpower the buddyness (if that is a word) but maple flavoring is not derived from buddy syrup.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

This discussion really focuses on a common concept in manufacturing environments called "contribution margin". When you sell a product for a price (bulk syrup at $/lb.) and then subtract the variable cost (let's say electricity for the pump and RO and oil for the evaporator, etc.), and you have something left over -- then what is left over makes a "contribution" towards fixed costs (property taxes, capital equipment, etc.). Once the fixed costs are covered, then anything left over makes a contribution to profit. Ideally, all your product lines (retail syrup, high grade bulk syrup, cream, candy, etc.) have high margins but the addition of a low margin product line (low grade bulk) can contribute to fixed costs and thus make a big differrence in your overall profit picture. Also, the lower your variable costs, (and the greater the producers knowledge of variable costs) the better situated they are to take advantage of contribution margin -- and ensure it is not too big a portion of overall sales.

[DrTimPerkins]

The reason the price is so low for off-flavored syrup is that the Federation is sitting on a HUGE pile of it because in bad years (like 2012) the Quebec producers make it to ensure they fill their quotas. FQAP requires buyers to accept a certain amount of this syrup with every truckload. Additionally, they've dropped the price in the past year to move some of it out of their inventory. U.S. Packers can get it cheaply from the Federation, so they won't pay more than this amount to U.S. Producers (after factoring in the currency exchange). If they truly had NO market for this syrup, they simply would not buy it. However it is the case that the market for this syrup is limited.

[Maple Man 85]

Sounds like we need to invent a use and develop a market...

My principal business consists of giving commercial value to the brilliant, but misdirected, ideas of others.... Accordingly, I never pick up an item without thinking of how I might improve it.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

~Tomas Edison~

[Parker]

I dont think your trying to sound rude, condecending or superior,,,,,,,,but,,,you sure do to me,,,,do you remember the bascoms catalog where bruce said why not make some extra barrels of end of the year syrup,,,said he would buy it,,,mabey you havent been sugaring that long? Anyways,,,i think that was the year i got $4/lb for ANYTHING I COULD GET INTO A BARREL,,,,,,,you ever fill a barrel? I put the barrels under the automatic drawoff and boiled the most disgusting stuff i had ever smelled,,,,and they bought every drop,,,,made huge money,,,,why do people make off flavored syrup,,,because there is a market for it,,,,very very simple,,,,not a huge mistry,,,,mabey you cant make money with your opperation selling it but,,,many, many do....and i tip my hat to them......

[Michael Greer]

In my experience, not only is the flavor poor, but it takes much, much more fuel and time to produce. At $11 per gallon you might as well get a job at McDonalds, or pick cans along the highway.

[motowbrowne]

In my experience, not only is the flavor poor, but it takes much, much more fuel and time to produce. At $11 per gallon you might as well get a job at McDonalds, or pick cans along the highway.

That'd just depend on how much your fuel costs and how many gallons per hour you can produce.

[DrTimPerkins]

Not meaning to go off-thread, but I think this is related enough so I'll post it here.

What is there WAS a legal way to make slightly off-flavor (buddy) syrup palatable (or at least better)? Would that make a difference?

What if there was a way to make seriously off-flavor (buddy, metabolism, ferment) syrup taste and look fine, but it would require a change to the current regulations to make it legal? Would that be worth pursuing?

There certainly are ways to process out off-flavors. They are not currently legal in the U.S. or Canada. Is it worth considering making this process legal to use so that buddy syrup had a better value? Could syrup made in this way then be sold as "pure" maple syrup, or would we have to create a new class of syrup such as "processed" maple syrup?

As climate change shortens the duration of the season in many areas (the transition from winter to summer is happening faster than it used to, and this is projected to continue, although we've offset the effects with vastly superior sap collection technology to a large degree), this might be a way to keep production levels high enough to ensure that the maple industry remains viable in the long-term.

[steviepap]

14180 I take any off tasting syrup and make maple mead (a wine of sorts) as well as maple porter beer. It comes out fantastic. It is just for personal consumption; however, there is a guys in Northern Michigan that has made a business out of doing the same thing. It is called Maple Moon Winery. 14180

[GeneralStark]

I dont think your trying to sound rude, condecending or superior,,,,,,,,but,,,you sure do to me,,,,do you remember the bascoms catalog where bruce said why not make some extra barrels of end of the year syrup,,,said he would buy it,,,mabey you havent been sugaring that long? Anyways,,,i think that was the year i got $4/lb for ANYTHING I COULD GET INTO A BARREL,,,,,,,you ever fill a barrel? I put the barrels under the automatic drawoff and boiled the most disgusting stuff i had ever smelled,,,,and they bought every drop,,,,made huge money,,,,why do people make off flavored syrup,,,because there is a market for it,,,,very very simple,,,,not a huge mistry,,,,mabey you cant make money with your opperation selling it but,,,many, many do....and i tip my hat to them......

Parker - No need to turn this into a I make more barrels than you kind of thing. I do remember the days you speak of, when you could get $4/lb for anything. Unfortunately they are gone, at least for now. Will they return? Maybe maybe not.

You and I use very different business models. Filling barrels with syrup and getting a check is great. And if you can get paid well for buddy syrup I see no reason not to make it. But there is more to this industry than that, and many of us spend lots of time and energy marketing and selling maple products and trying to educate consumers about why they should spend the $$$ on these products.

You tip your hat to people making money producing barrels of buddy syrup and that's fine. I do too. I also tip my hat to people that make a crop and then market it all and sell it direct to their costumers and make good money doing it. But, there is a quality issue in this industry and it affects customer perception. That is the point I am trying to make and discuss in a "discussion forum".

[GeneralStark]

Not meaning to go off-thread, but I think this is related enough so I'll post it here.

What is there WAS a legal way to make slightly off-flavor (buddy) syrup palatable (or at least better)? Would that make a difference?

What if there was a way to make seriously off-flavor (buddy, metabolism, ferment) syrup taste and look fine, but it would require a change to the current regulations to make it legal? Would that be worth pursuing?

There certainly are ways to process out off-flavors. They are not currently legal in the U.S. or Canada. Is it worth considering making this process legal to use so that buddy syrup had a better value? Could syrup made in this way then be sold as "pure" maple syrup, or would we have to create a new class of syrup such as "processed" maple syrup?

As climate change shortens the duration of the season in many areas (the transition from winter to summer is happening faster than it used to, and this is projected to continue, although we've offset the effects with vastly superior sap collection technology to a large degree), this might be a way to keep production levels high enough to ensure that the maple industry remains viable in the long-term.

Totally on topic. Being able to process buddy syrup into something more palatable and marketable beyond the current limited market is the "holy grail" I am told by one large packer in VT. Then we can make money producing it with less risk of it ending up where it shouldn't.

Whether or not the process you speak of is worth pursuing is a great question. I suspect there is discussion about this but I don't know anything more about it.

[unc23win]

That'd just depend on how much your fuel costs and how many gallons per hour you can produce.

Exactly $11 is still profitable for some for example if diesel is $1.60 a gallon and you burn 1/3 of a gallon to make a gallon of syrup that's what $10.40 profit not counting electricity. Natural gas is more than likely even more profitable. A few more factors come into play with wood, but that doesn't mean there isn't a profit.

[steviepap]

1418114182

[markcasper]

Commercial syrup in 2005 was $1 a pound, commercial syrup in 1992 was .50. Those were crappy prices then and if its a $1 a pound this year, then its twice as crappy.

[Big_Eddy]

The flip side of this is the perception of the customer- especially the customer that has no real knowledge of the maple syrup process.

My Mother in Law gets a steady supply of syrup from us, but this spring she ran out at an inopportune time and being 7 hours away from us, went to her local Costco and paid $12/l for a jug of "Pure Maple Syrup". She phoned me 15 minutes later to see if I would FedEx her some "real syrup" as in her words, the Costco syrup "tastes like burnt sweat socks".

I bothers me to think that there can be syrup out there that is so off-putting that buyers who "give it a try" subsequently will never touch another drop of real maple syrup. I'm sure this jug was just an exception, but if my Mother in Law had not known better, she might never have known just how great pure maple syrup can be.

If there is a genuine market where the off-taste is not an issue, so be it, but for goodness sake we need to keep it out of retail containers so it doesn't taint the market for the rest of us.

[saphound]

Not meaning to go off-thread, but I think this is related enough so I'll post it here.

What is there WAS a legal way to make slightly off-flavor (buddy) syrup palatable (or at least better)? Would that make a difference?

What if there was a way to make seriously off-flavor (buddy, metabolism, ferment) syrup taste and look fine, but it would require a change to the current regulations to make it legal? Would that be worth pursuing?

There certainly are ways to process out off-flavors. They are not currently legal in the U.S. or Canada. Is it worth considering making this process legal to use so that buddy syrup had a better value? Could syrup made in this way then be sold as "pure" maple syrup, or would we have to create a new class of syrup such as "processed" maple syrup?

As climate change shortens the duration of the season in many areas (the transition from winter to summer is happening faster than it used to, and this is projected to continue, although we've offset the effects with vastly superior sap collection technology to a large degree), this might be a way to keep production levels high enough to ensure that the maple industry remains viable in the long-term.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, except as a consumer. But if the off-flavor syrup has to be processed to rid it of the off flavor, I would certainly want it to be labeled as Processed Maple Syrup..and sold for less than Pure Maple Syrup, and kept out of Pure Maple Syrup. And I'd bet most consumers would agree. It could be a cheaper alternative to pure, and better than imitation syrup, but please never mix the two together and call it pure.

[Bruce L]

We had a neighbour who has since passed away that made syrup as long as anything came out of the trees. In his words exactly " I don't have to eat it" I think that is a terrible attitude to have towards our consumers. I will not allow anything to got out our doorway that I would not eat myself. If John A. Consumer gets a container of so badly off flavoured syrup that he can't eat it,that is the container he will tell ALL of his friends about,and we end up with more government regulations in our industry.

[michael marrs]

there is another take on this. my last batch according to my wife had an unusual taste. I sampled it, I could taste the maple, the smoke, the sweet, but there was something else , very subtle, and this was my favorite batch. Flavor is just that, its not tainted, or ruined or anything else.. I made 6 gallons to donate for a fund raiser for my archery club this year, but I bought the last gallon for me. I do not like "hot " in my foods most men do. I find it just a flavor, and very mild at that

[abbott]

Small producer economics and big producer economics are vastly different. I make 300+ gallons of syrup per year and sell it all direct. I'm not getting rich, but I am making money. I've got some market for extremely dark syrup that tastes a bit off since the temps were warm and the sap was very cloudy, but I don't have a market for buddy syrup. I'm not going to take 30 gallons of it to Bascoms and expect them to buy it from me even if I could make that much. And since a huge part of my cost of production is the time spent boiling, its not worth it. For a big producer whose time spent boiling is a much smaller portion of production cost and who is selling all bulk syrup anyway, its an entirely different scenario.

I've got a bit of a different perspective on the bad tasting real maple syrup that can end up on the shelves. Most of my customers are familiar with real maple syrup enough to know the difference. And they don't go running to the supermarket when they run out... they come to me. Because, as many have told me, my syrup is so much better than what they have found elsewhere.

Now, I'm sure that most of that "elsewhere" syrup is just as good as mine, but there is enough questionable stuff out there that my customers come back to me rather than risk buying a product of unknown quality. So in a way, I am grateful to those who standards are not as high as mine, because it makes my customers more loyal.

No, I'm not accusing the producer who makes buddy syrup of having low standards. Quality control of the finished product isn't their job.

Ideally, there would be a product that buddy syrup could be processed into that had a high value. But when Dr Tim says there is a process that isn't currently legal, that is a bit scary to me. Is it illegal because it is potentially unsafe? Maple syrup has a reputation to keep. And putting it through a process of questionable legality doesn't sound like a smart move.

[abbott]

We had a neighbour who has since passed away that made syrup as long as anything came out of the trees. In his words exactly " I don't have to eat it" I think that is a terrible attitude to have towards our consumers. I will not allow anything to got out our doorway that I would not eat myself. If John A. Consumer gets a container of so badly off flavoured syrup that he can't eat it,that is the container he will tell ALL of his friends about,and we end up with more government regulations in our industry.

But what if you or your customer were processing that syrup into a great tasting maple beer. Or using it successfully for their famous baked beans? I have a very high standard on anything that goes into a retail container... but as long as anything "off" has another good use...

But then, I've never tasted buddy syrup so I don't know how bad it is. And the really dark stuff I sometimes make that I think is a bit off... I have customers who beg me to save it for them. As long as they know what they're getting...

[spud]

For all the years I was living in Alaska the only maple syrup I bought was from Costco in Anchorage. Anytime I needed to drive to Anchorage for something I would swing by Costco and buy a quart. The syrup came from a Vermont Packer but on the back of the jug it said (Product of Canada). In all the years I bought this stuff I can honestly say it all tasted very good. It was Grade A Dark Amber syrup. For Packers to blend good with bad is brilliant on their part. As long as the taste is good (which it is) then there is no problem. In all honesty it probably taste better then light syrup. Packers are not hurting the maple industry by doing this. The only problem I have with the packers is the price of their syrup in the stores has not changed in years. I am making .40 less per pound then I was five years ago thats $4.40 less per gallon then five years ago. That tells me the Packers are making $4.40 more per gallon then five years ago. I'm not so sure the Canadian dollar dictates the price as much as people say it does. I think the Federation and the American Packers are lining their pockets while using the Canadian currency as an excuse. Even when the Vermont Packers were buying the stollen syrup from Canada at discount prices the syrup prices stayed the same in the stores. They all bought it and they knew it was wrong and they filled their pockets with money. You would think that after making all that extra money they would at least pay the producers $3.50 LB for one year. The reason there is so much low grade syrup in the warehouses in Canada is because only the good stuff got stollen a few years back. That caused the need for more quality syrup to be restocked in the warehouse. With all the money made from the stollen syrup the Packers can offer the non stollen (low grade syrup) to the American Packers at a discount price. This now causes the price of low grade syrup to drop a bit. As markets continue to rise for low grade syrup (and they will) the price for low grade will go up a bit. I am in hopes the Packers will find more uses for low grade syrup so we can sell more ( end of season ) syrup to them. This will help the producers out and it will allow the Packers to make more money.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

Ideally, there would be a product that buddy syrup could be processed into that had a high value. But when Dr Tim says there is a process that isn't currently legal, that is a bit scary to me. Is it illegal because it is potentially unsafe? Maple syrup has a reputation to keep. And putting it through a process of questionable legality doesn't sound like a smart move.

There are a couple of different processes that could be used. One is legal, but is fairly costly and labor intensive, and only partially effective. The syrup produced ranges from just OK to slightly buddy. The other processes are not legal at this point due to maple purity laws (only certain processing methods are allowed), but are completely safe, and produce a syrup as good as any good syrup that is out there. These processes would mostly be done at the packer level, since they are a bit more involved and the price would be too high for small producers. For large producers and packers, it would definitely be both doable and cost-effective.

I'm not pushing for this to happen (although I personally don't think it would be a terrible idea), but I just would like to hear what people think the pros and cons of allowing this would be.

[abbott]

I'm not pushing for this to happen (although I personally don't think it would be a terrible idea), but I just would like to hear what people think the pros and cons of allowing this would be.

I would be interested to learn more about the processes. Is there somewhere to read up on them? Could certified organic syrup be subjected to the process and still be considered an organic product?

I'm tending to agree with saphound... keep it separate from pure maple syrup. Once reprocessing syrup has been reprocessed, don't equate it to grade A. Use it in other products.

Has anyone analyzed the resulting syrup to see how the final composition compares? Are the sugars different? The nutrient content?

[PerryFamily]

100% correct

[saphound]

There are a couple of different processes that could be used. One is legal, but is fairly costly and labor intensive, and only partially effective. The syrup produced ranges from just OK to slightly buddy. The other processes are not legal at this point due to maple purity laws (only certain processing methods are allowed), but are completely safe, and produce a syrup as good as any good syrup that is out there. These processes would mostly be done at the packer level, since they are a bit more involved and the price would be too high for small producers. For large producers and packers, it would definitely be both doable and cost-effective.

I'm not pushing for this to happen (although I personally don't think it would be a terrible idea), but I just would like to hear what people think the pros and cons of allowing this would be.

Are the large producers and packers pushing for it to happen?
And also, it sounds like Costco's (and maybe others) supplier might already be using that one legal process if their cheaper syrup tastes like "burnt sweat socks", as Eddie put it...and it is allowed to be called Pure Maple Syrup? Would that be a correct assumption?

[DrTimPerkins]

I would be interested to learn more about the processes. Is there somewhere to read up on them?

To be clear, I have no intention of explaining the process. Let's just say that it is possible to do and leave it at that.


Could certified organic syrup be subjected to the process and still be considered an organic product?

Possibly. I'd have to check into this more.


Has anyone analyzed the resulting syrup to see how the final composition compares? Are the sugars different? The nutrient content?

Yes, we understand quite well how these processing methods affect the chemistry of the resulting syrup. Again, it is not important to this discussion to go into details, but I will say that the resulting product is pretty much indistinguishable from maple syrup. In fact, it is extremely difficult to tell the difference unless you know exactly what to look for. The consumer would never know. Maple producers would never know. Packers would never know.


Once reprocessing syrup has been reprocessed, don't equate it to grade A. Use it in other products.

Therein lies the problem. Once the syrup has been reprocessed, it would be quite difficult for anyone to tell the difference. I can't imagine there would be a good way to keep those who wanted to reprocess and sell as "pure" from doing that unless the bookkeeping procedures on what was bought and sold were very strict.

[DrTimPerkins]

Are the large producers and packers pushing for it to happen?

Nobody is pushing this to happen that I am aware of.


And also, it sounds like Costco's (and maybe others) supplier might already be using that one legal process if their cheaper syrup tastes like "burnt sweat socks", as Eddie put it...and it is allowed to be called Pure Maple Syrup? Would that be a correct assumption?

Probably not. The legal method is very cumbersome, has a fairly high cost in terms of time and fuel, and is not highly effective. It can be done, but probably isn't done a lot. More likely it is just that some low grade syrup is being added in to try to use it up and dilute it out.

I guess my real questions revolve around what the advantages and disadvantages of possibly allowing this to be done, and is it worth considering?

As far as advantages, it means producers could make buddy syrup right up til the trees stopped running or you couldn't filter it anymore. There would never need to be crap syrup sold to consumers, but you could still have dark, strong-tasting syrup if you wanted. But on the flip side, with the current regulations it would not be allowed to be sold as "pure maple syrup" due to the reprocessing method (unless the regulations were changed).

[lew]

If buddy syrup could be legally reprocessed into good tasting syrup, I think you would see overall bulk prices drop. Almost the entire crop could be considered usable table grade syrup. So if a packer can buy buddy syrup cheap, reprocess, pack into retail containers and make a profit, then he's going to do it. This I think would lower the price of good syrup to equal what the reprocessed buddy syrup. I don't know what percentage of the annual crop is actually buddy, but in recent years it appears to get larger and larger. If a packer can buy cheap and sell high, why wouldn't he do that rather than pay more for a higher grade syrup.

[abbott]

To be clear, I have no intention of explaining the process. Let's just say that it is possible to do and leave it at that.

Got it. But with no explanation its going to be hard to say how I feel about it. And from what you're saying, if the process were available to producers at some point, then nothing would stop them from selling it retail, since they would be able to turn it into an indistinguishable product.

[spud]

To turn low grade into good it will cost money is what the Dr. Is saying. Because of this the packers will alway want quality syrup because it is going to be easier for them. We buy crude oil from S Arabia because they have the sweetest oil on the planet. Even with shipping it all the way back to America to be refined is cheaper then getting crude from Alaska. This is why The vast majority of the North slope of Alaska is closed to oil. The plan is to hold off on drilling big in Alaska until we have to have the junk. In the maple industy the packers will use up all the good stuff and then most likely refine the junk if needed. If it comes out looking, smelling and tasting like syrup then it must be syrup. I can assure you the average person around the world would not care how their maple syrup came to be. Just put it on your pancakes and eat it. When you buy a cart full of food at the grocery store do you investigate every ingredient to see how it was made? You buy the food you bring it home and you feed it to your family. Marketing maple around the world will only help the maple industry. As the demand for maple products increase world wide then the sugar maker could stand to make a little more money while the Packers will make lots more money.

Spud

[Maple Man 85]

I'm a bit late to the conversation but what occurs in the reprocessing that no longer makes the syrup "pure syrup"? In my mind something would have to be added it the syrup and then reheated which would absorb/dilute the buddy flavor but keep the integrity of the maple flavor however not be able to filter out or the substance becomes chemically infused with the syrup. Not looking for a detailed explanation but we put filter aid and defoamer in our syrup are the filter presses good enough to remove all traces of those? Just trying to compare...

[blissville maples]

to be honest with you general, no bulk buyer is buying syrup to keep people happy losing money just to keep them happy- just not how business works don't care what you say. they are making money by buying it cheaper then table grade this is obvious to anyone selling more than 50 gallons. as far as buddy, not sure that you know what that is, since no one is making syrup while leaves are out, don't get the red maple pollen glands confused with leaves, they do not let out leaves first they let off pollen pistils(not saying keep sugaring with the reds, but all depends on saP taste) buddy sap and syrup coats your mouth and tongue, its unmistakable. as far as 2012 it was a super warm spring and the weather basically caught a lot of people off guard who usually tap around first week of march, but the second week was 80 degrees so they didn't expect this and pershaps boiled on. I believe your theory of buddy syrup on market is ridiculous, where can I buy some id love to try it!!! the only place ive EVER tasted budd ysyrup was at bascoms while selling mine, they have a market for it, for 19-20 a gallon and the yare not losing money!!!!

[Parker]

Turning buďdy syrup into table grade is a horribel idea,,,im not saying selling buddy syrup for table grade is o.k.,,,,,its a bad idea,,,,when i worked on a dairy farm when we had a cow that was used up we sent her to market if she was in decent shape,,,,if she was down or had penicilian in her the we sold her to the rendering truck,,,,,there is a market for most everything,,,but its important to send your product to the right market............if you really want to help the producer require all syrup bottels to say if it is a blend and where the syrup was originaly boiled,,,,in large letters,,,,,,,,most people see a cool syrup bottel with a u.s. company name on it and dont realize they are getting a blend of syrup that was cranked to 21% then blended with something that tastes good and then the packer added 10 gallons of off flavored junk to the mix to add to profit.........

[GeneralStark]

to be honest with you general, no bulk buyer is buying syrup to keep people happy losing money just to keep them happy- just not how business works don't care what you say. they are making money by buying it cheaper then table grade this is obvious to anyone selling more than 50 gallons. as far as buddy, not sure that you know what that is, since no one is making syrup while leaves are out, don't get the red maple pollen glands confused with leaves, they do not let out leaves first they let off pollen pistils(not saying keep sugaring with the reds, but all depends on saP taste) buddy sap and syrup coats your mouth and tongue, its unmistakable. as far as 2012 it was a super warm spring and the weather basically caught a lot of people off guard who usually tap around first week of march, but the second week was 80 degrees so they didn't expect this and pershaps boiled on. I believe your theory of buddy syrup on market is ridiculous, where can I buy some id love to try it!!! the only place ive EVER tasted budd ysyrup was at bascoms while selling mine, they have a market for it, for 19-20 a gallon and the yare not losing money!!!!

Once again, no need to turn this discussion into a pissing contest. My interest in this subject has lead to a great deal of research, and while you may not believe what I am saying there are plenty of industry leaders that will say the same thing. Packers buy crap syrup from producers because it a competitive market, and in many case to get the good they need to take the bad. And in years with a bad crop (2012 is a classic example) they will buy more of it to help out their producers. I know many producers don't like the packers because they see them as greedy, but most are not, and in many cases they are sugarmakers as well and are quite conflicted on this subject. The packer/producer relationship is another can of worms right there, but there is a great deal of misconception amongst producers in regards to why they buy this syrup, and while there is a market it is currently limited. Hence the very low prices for it right now. They are selling it off, but not quickly enough to want to buy lots more.

I know what buddy syrup is, I make some every year, and I am a botanist so I know the different stages of bud/leaf development. Thanks though.

[saphound]

This is a very interesting topic of discussion, thanks General for starting it up. I do think processing buddy syrup into a good tasting syrup is preferable to blending bad syrup into good syrup that basically ruins the good syrup. (Costco, etc.) If I were to run out of my own syrup, I would be tempted to try a pint of this processed syrup just out of curiosity..plus I do like the darker syrup anyway. But I would expect to know what I was buying and I would expect it to be a good bit cheaper. That could end up not being the case though...

[ryebrye]

Not meaning to go off-thread, but I think this is related enough so I'll post it here.

What is there WAS a legal way to make slightly off-flavor (buddy) syrup palatable (or at least better)? Would that make a difference?

What if there was a way to make seriously off-flavor (buddy, metabolism, ferment) syrup taste and look fine, but it would require a change to the current regulations to make it legal? Would that be worth pursuing?

There certainly are ways to process out off-flavors. They are not currently legal in the U.S. or Canada. Is it worth considering making this process legal to use so that buddy syrup had a better value? Could syrup made in this way then be sold as "pure" maple syrup, or would we have to create a new class of syrup such as "processed" maple syrup?

As climate change shortens the duration of the season in many areas (the transition from winter to summer is happening faster than it used to, and this is projected to continue, although we've offset the effects with vastly superior sap collection technology to a large degree), this might be a way to keep production levels high enough to ensure that the maple industry remains viable in the long-term.

There some stuff patented in the 1960's that used some micro-organisms to treat buddy syrup. I haven't heard anything about this actually used - I'm not sure if this is the illegal process that you are talking about, or have new processes come about since then?

http://www.google.com/patents/US2880094
http://www.google.com/patents/US3205076

another in in the 1976 about processing the syrup through an ion exchange resin:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4006032

Is there a new method that has come about recently?

[WestfordSugarworks]

My father and I as well as extended family and some friends spent roughly 300 hours tapping our 2 bushes this year, I would guess. I alone have spent at least 100 hours walking lines. We have thousands and thousands of $ that have gone into the business that needs to be earned back somehow. If we can get even $1 per pound for syrup and that syrup processes reasonably well and we are able to have a relatively regular boil, i think it's profitable for us. Sure, there is cost of running vac. pump, RO, lights, fuel oil, wear and tear on equipment, etc. Also there is cost of labor for me walking lines to maintain vacuum and us boling. But we can make about 50 gallons of syrup an hour and it is enjoyable! 50x11.3x1=$565 dollars per hour. Not including the organic bonus we will get. When you have put hundreds of hours of labor into tapping and walking lines, and will put many hours into pulling spouts, and also have put in a lot of capital, it makes clear economic sense to continue making syrup until it is no longer profitable.

I trust that the packer uses off flavored syrup in a processing application, not straight in jugs for retail sale. I think packers would stop accepting off flavored syrup completely, or maybe just accept it from one or two big producers, if the market was very tight right now. But from what I've heard, the market for maple syrup is growing considerably. I assume that includes both the market for great tasting syrup and bad tasting syrup that gets used as a sweetener in a big industrial facility somewhere. I have no moral issues with making the stuff and selling it to someone who uses it in a product that ends up tasting good. Also, people have said that Costco syrup tastes bad. Perhaps they had a bad batch that went out, but would a packer intentionally fill jugs with bad tasting syrup? Maybe, but I doubt it. That's really risky and probably wouldn't make sense to their bottom line to run a risk like that.

[DrTimPerkins]

....I'm not sure if this is the illegal process that you are talking about, or have new processes come about since then?
(Snip)
Is there a new method that has come about recently?

As I have said already, I'm not going to discuss specifics of the methods.

[saphound]

I trust that the packer uses off flavored syrup in a processing application, not straight in jugs for retail sale. I think packers would stop accepting off flavored syrup completely, or maybe just accept it from one or two big producers, if the market was very tight right now. But from what I've heard, the market for maple syrup is growing considerably. I assume that includes both the market for great tasting syrup and bad tasting syrup that gets used as a sweetener in a big industrial facility somewhere. I have no moral issues with making the stuff and selling it to someone who uses it in a product that ends up tasting good. Also, people have said that Costco syrup tastes bad. Perhaps they had a bad batch that went out, but would a packer intentionally fill jugs with bad tasting syrup? Maybe, but I doubt it. That's really risky and probably wouldn't make sense to their bottom line to run a risk like that.

Hello WestfordSugarworks,
Perhaps you missed DR. Tim's first post. It doesn't seem there is that big a market for the buddy or off flavored syrup presently. There is a lot stockpiled already and the market for it is limited. I'll paste it again here:
Quote:
"The reason the price is so low for off-flavored syrup is that the Federation is sitting on a HUGE pile of it because in bad years (like 2012) the Quebec producers make it to ensure they fill their quotas. FQAP requires buyers to accept a certain amount of this syrup with every truckload. Additionally, they've dropped the price in the past year to move some of it out of their inventory. U.S. Packers can get it cheaply from the Federation, so they won't pay more than this amount to U.S. Producers (after factoring in the currency exchange). If they truly had NO market for this syrup, they simply would not buy it. However it is the case that the market for this syrup is limited." End quote
As for the Costco syrup, I've never had it..just going on what others have said. Maybe it was an isolated incident, but if the question is, Would a packer try to blend in some of the cheap syrup to make a buck..it would seem that's exactly what one did. Just sayin. Keep up the good work, sounds like you have a great operation up there.

[Run Forest Run!]

Before I started making my own syrup in 2012, the maple syrup that is sold at Costco is what I had purchased for fifteen years. (The local sugarer that I used to buy syrup from moved away and I found a new source.) I had never had a bad jug in those fifteen years of purchasing Costco's syrup and I'd purchase at least six jugs a year. Just last week I had an opportunity to sample their syrup again while shopping at Costco and it's definitely a little stronger tasting than mine, but I still would have run my finger through the cup to get the last drop if I wasn't certain that I'd embarrass myself too much if someone I knew saw me doing that. It didn't, however, stop me from doubling back a few minutes later for another go.

Costco has such stringent quality control that I'm certain that if their supplier(s) started dumping 'lesser syrup' into the Kirkland house blend that they would lose their contract pronto. There have been many times that 'Costco Connection' (the Costco magazine) has featured articles on maple syrup, their maple suppliers, their syrup specifications, maple recipes etc etc. It seems to be a point of pride with them. This particular article featured a 5th generation maple producer who is one of their suppliers.

http://www.costcoconnection.ca/connectioncaeng/20080304?search_term=maple&pg=44#pg44

I'd venture to say that all of us on this forum are used to consuming nothing but the most outstanding syrup there is and usually hot from the pan. ;) That makes a huge difference. Now that I make my own I can certainly taste the difference that "farm to table" makes, but Costco's syrup in my experience over the years is certainly en par or better than one could expect a syrup purchased off the store shelf would be. If it wasn't for the fact that I seem to be accumulating a life time supply of my own syrup in the freezer I'd not shy away from their house blend. Something must have been off with that one jug, but more likely the person consuming it has been spoiled by previously having a constant source of the best stuff. :) I'd bet that was it.

[Parker]

Im not making it into a p,,, contest,,,im making a point,,,junk syrup should be used appropiatly i.m.h.o.,,,,blends and origins should be labeled,,,truth in marketing in all ,,,,,as for my first reply and filling bbls,,,i am trying to point out, as others have, that there is econamy in large production,,,if i can make 60 gal. A day why wouldnt i?

[WestfordSugarworks]

Hello WestfordSugarworks,
Perhaps you missed DR. Tim's first post. It doesn't seem there is that big a market for the buddy or off flavored syrup presently. There is a lot stockpiled already and the market for it is limited.

I did read his post but i guess i forget that in my post. lol. I would still guess that the market is growing for off flavored syrup, however. Perhaps not 'considerably' as I said. I have heard that packers blend in off syrup with good syrup, and I feel that is fine as long as the end product is good. I guess in that case it wasn't. Thank you, saphound.

[GeneralStark]

I did read his post but i guess i forget that in my post. lol. I would still guess that the market is growing for off flavored syrup, however. Perhaps not 'considerably' as I said. I have heard that packers blend in off syrup with good syrup, and I feel that is fine as long as the end product is good. I guess in that case it wasn't. Thank you, saphound.

The blending topic is an interesting one. None of the packers I have spoken to directly will admit to doing this with buddy syrup. One packer in VT very clearly stated that they do not even buy buddy syrup as it is useless to them. They tell their producers to either not make it or sell it to someone else. When they do end up with off flavored syrup (metabolism, burnt niter, etc) which is going to happen, they sell it to another large packer that is known for buying pretty much anything.

My understanding, based on conversations with several in the industry, is that it is nearly impossible to bury the buddy off flavor when blending unless you are adding a tiny bit to a very large quantity. This syrup is in a category all its own. The flavor can be buried in processed foods that have other strong flavors, but as i said in my original post there is an unwillingness to give too much detail about the buyers of this type of syrup. Part of the challenge with buddy off flavor is it is not just a flavor but a mouthfeel that is the issue with it.

Now is it possible that some do blend buddy syrup in with good flavored syrup? Sure it is and perhaps that is why some have the stories they do of buying bad syrup at say COstco or elsewhere. Or perhaps that was some other off flavor, or another issue. In the article I referenced by Michael Farrell he speaks of the issue of rejections of syrup at competitions due to off flavors as being widespread and others I have spoken to say this as well. The amount of off flavored syrup out there appears to be quite large, which still begs the question, why intentionally make more of it, especially when it appears to have such limited uses?

[RustyBuckets]

Simple answer to your last question General is..... Because when the phone rings and the buyer tells me to keep making it he wants it, guess what Im gonna do.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

What is that buyers number?

[MaxJ]

Interesting topic and what comes to mind is the off tasting syrup is bought and it seems to be a big ??? of what happens to the syrup then. Now just a question if somebody in Asia, or any other part of the world for that matter could open up a bottle of syrup and say "Ah the bloody thing is buddy syrup!" Personally I think a lot of barrels can fit into one 40" container and for a few grand land in a port far-far away from the NA taste buds.

[saphound]

What is that buyers number?

1-800-mon-santo lol j/k...I think

[spud]

I have enjoyed reading all the comment on this Thread. Here is my take so far (for what it's worth).

I think the people claiming they have tasted nasty maple syrup from Costco are full of (you know what). It just is not true.

The General has spoken with different packers and has gone to seminars where Packers have spoken and that's all fine and dandy. I can assure you that when the Packers have their real meetings it's behind closed doors. I have a gut feeling the General would not be invited to these meetings.

There's also been talk that certain types of blending or flavor altering is not legal. I am sure this is true but how many Packers truly follow the law? Are we forgetting there the people that bought the $30 million dollars of stollen syrup just a few years ago?

Some are saying there is a limit on how much off flavored syrup can be sold. That is true but there is a limit on how much good syrup can be sold also. Off flavored syrup might only make up 5-10% of someones total production. I am convinced the Packers are working hard trying to find new market for off tasting syrup. It appears other forms of sweeteners are becoming a big concern to people. Because of this I see a bright future for the maple industry. People can be talked into buying just about anything if it sounds good ( and maple is good ). If maple could be advertised in the right way it could soon be the new sweetener of choice by many food companies. Before you sell it to the food companies you have to sell it to the people. Once you plant it in the peoples heads that maple sweetener is the natural way to go they will demand it from the food companies. It's kinda like the ol saying ( those who run the school system also run the world ). This is where off tasting maple syrup sales could boom. So producers please keep making the nasty because the Packers will buy it. This just causes them to find new markets for it and helps us all to make more money.

Spud

[daniel_wentworth]

Good thread......I'd say we beat that up pretty good!............ Thank You Dr. Tim for not divulging the process.

[DaveB]

After reading through this very interesting thread I'm left wondering if "buddy" or off tasting syrup be converted to usable maple sugar that doesn't have an off flavor? By that I mean turn the buddy syrup in maple sugar that can be sold and used without adding an off flavor.

[wiam]

After reading through this very interesting thread I'm left wondering if "buddy" or off tasting syrup be converted to usable maple sugar that doesn't have an off flavor? By that I mean turn the buddy syrup in maple sugar that can be sold and used without adding an off flavor.

I have used off flavored syrup to make sugar that tasted fine. I have also had flavors come through in the sugar. I would think buddy could not be covered. Also buddy syrup usually does not have much "maple" flavor and I am use dark syrup for sugar as it has more flavor.

[saphound]

I have enjoyed reading all the comment on this Thread. Here is my take so far (for what it's worth).

I think the people claiming they have tasted nasty maple syrup from Costco are full of (you know what). It just is not true.



Spud

Hello Spud, I haven't read any "people" making that claim in this thread..just one person. Big Eddy's mother-in-law..and she ain't here to explain it further. Is she full of "you know what"? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be the one to tell her that..could get ya bopped on the head with a rolling pin, lol. It's probably as Karen said..her taste buds have been spoiled on Eddy's good stuff. I've never stepped foot in a Costco store, or bought "real" syrup in any store..I can get it from a number of local sugar shacks fresh from the pan.
But whether it's Costco, Walmart, Krugers, Target or any other store..funny tasting syrup could potentially pop up in any one of them.
So to Dr. Tims query for opinions on the question.. "what if there was a way to make buddy syrup good", that's dooable and cost effective"..I say what are they waiting for? Sounds like win-win for everyone. But I still think it should be cheaper syrup if the buyers are paying the guys doing all the work less for it...and the labels ought to tell consumers exactly what's in the jug.

[Bucket Head]

If there's a market for off-flavored syrup, great. It does benefit the producers greatly. What isn't a benefit is when nasty syrup gets passed along as Grade A stuff. And it does happen. Years ago I was given some small bottles of real syrup from a Cracker Barrel restaurant. (I don't think they do the real stuff anymore, as I was told by the folks who gave it to me) Anyway, that was NOT good tasting product at all. Somebody's bottling plant somewhere ran syrup through that should have gone to the chewing tobacco plant. Intentional or not, I don't know. But quality control can not be lax if all this off flavored stuff is being unloaded at the same place. I can't imagine what the folks at that restaurant thought of real syrup after eating that stuff.

[WestfordSugarworks]

I know this is off topic, but I think that collectively as sugarmakers we might consider being just as concerned about how climate change can affect our future. The production of buddy syrup could be potentially curtailed within a season if packers collectively decided to stop buying it and that would mostly solve this issue (unless producers were selling junk in jugs to their retail/wholesale customers). But what is very difficult to curtail is the affect of climate change on our season. We should be concerned about how our oil-fired rigs, trucks, ATVs, gas powered pumps, etc are impacting our future. Already the season is shorter than it used to be in VT and some maple regions are beginning to wonder if their seasons have really been screwed due to climate change. I'm not trying to be critical of any producers, as we ourselves have a rig that is burning 20 gallons of oil an hour. But it's just something to think about and I think is just as important as the production of off flavored syrup.

[Big_Eddy]

Hello Spud, I haven't read any "people" making that claim in this thread..just one person. Big Eddy's mother-in-law..and she ain't here to explain it further. Is she full of "you know what"? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be the one to tell her that..could get ya bopped on the head with a rolling pin, lol. It's probably as Karen said..her taste buds have been spoiled on Eddy's good stuff. I've never stepped foot in a Costco store, or bought "real" syrup in any store..I can get it from a number of local sugar shacks fresh from the pan.
But whether it's Costco, Walmart, Krugers, Target or any other store..funny tasting syrup could potentially pop up in any one of them.
So to Dr. Tims query for opinions on the question.. "what if there was a way to make buddy syrup good", that's dooable and cost effective"..I say what are they waiting for? Sounds like win-win for everyone. But I still think it should be cheaper syrup if the buyers are paying the guys doing all the work less for it...and the labels ought to tell consumers exactly what's in the jug.

Saphound - pretty accurate assessment with the rolling pin there. :) I did not taste the syrup. I'm only passing on her comments. I was surprised her reaction was that strong, and I did ask her to send me a picture of the bottle but it had already been tossed out. I was not in any way implying that Costco or anyone else is deliberately blending off-tasting syrup with good. Just trying to point out that ANY bad syrup in the market can taint the market badly. I've edited my original post for clarity.

[psparr]

I know this is off topic, but I think that collectively as sugarmakers we might consider being just as concerned about how climate change can affect our future. The production of buddy syrup could be potentially curtailed within a season if packers collectively decided to stop buying it and that would mostly solve this issue (unless producers were selling junk in jugs to their retail/wholesale customers). But what is very difficult to curtail is the affect of climate change on our season. We should be concerned about how our oil-fired rigs, trucks, ATVs, gas powered pumps, etc are impacting our future. Already the season is shorter than it used to be in VT and some maple regions are beginning to wonder if their seasons have really been screwed due to climate change. I'm not trying to be critical of any producers, as we ourselves have a rig that is burning 20 gallons of oil an hour. But it's just something to think about and I think is just as important as the production of off flavored syrup.

Since this topic has gone off the rails a few times, I'll take it off one more.

Apparently we've made it out of an ice age a few times without the help of man, trucks, or oil fired rigs.

I have seen many things come and go as "fact".

Heck even yesterday there was a news article that whole milk is better for you than skim.

Heck maybe buddy syrup will turn out to be the cure for cancer!

[Parker]

Just got off the phone with my packer 1.95 a pound for buddy......why o why would i want to make it??? 1.95 x 620 lbs a barrel..........and i have 2 55s now and working on a third,,,,costs me about 200 a day to run.....i make it because i make money at it,,,,,,very very simple,,,,oh,,and i enjoy doing it,,,,good luck if your still swinging,,,,

[unc23win]

Just got off the phone with my packer 1.95 a pound for buddy......why o why would i want to make it??? 1.95 x 620 lbs a barrel..........and i have 2 55s now and working on a third,,,,costs me about 200 a day to run.....i make it because i make money at it,,,,,,very very simple,,,,oh,,and i enjoy doing it,,,,good luck if your still swinging,,,,

That makes it quite a bit more worth it doesn't it. Not to get off topic, but what did they say for Grade A?

[markcasper]

Just got off the phone with my packer 1.95 a pound for buddy......why o why would i want to make it??? 1.95 x 620 lbs a barrel..........and i have 2 55s now and working on a third,,,,costs me about 200 a day to run.....i make it because i make money at it,,,,,,very very simple,,,,oh,,and i enjoy doing it,,,,good luck if your still swinging,,,,

This is hard to believe considering C grade is 1.25. I'll believe it when I see it., unless C went up unexpectedly.

[spud]

Parker I think thats great. You are the definition of a real sugar maker. You don't just take the good and then end your season. You take the good the bad and the nasty and you make it work. I hope you make 10 more barrels of buddy and enjoy all that extra cash. How much is your Packer paying for the good stuff? I'm sure General will have something to say about all this. Right now he is probably out boiling. :lol:

Spud

[Parker]

I should have said that it was on the condition it was not too off flavored as he had a use for it and he genrally likes my syrup...has to be filtered and he only needs the 3 bbls so it not a regular occarance.....but i will take an exception....not sure i will make anything good enough for that today,,,

[saphound]

Saphound - pretty accurate assessment with the rolling pin there. :) I did not taste the syrup. I'm only passing on her comments. I was surprised her reaction was that strong, and I did ask her to send me a picture of the bottle but it had already been tossed out. I was not in any way implying that Costco or anyone else is deliberately blending off-tasting syrup with good. Just trying to point out that ANY bad syrup in the market can taint the market badly. I've edited my original post for clarity.


Hey Eddie, your mother-in-law sounds a lot like mine, ha. I didn't mean to single out Costco either, I was going on her comments also. I've never smelled or tasted buddy syrup, but I've seen it described here more than once that it smells like boiling dirty gym socks..so that matched up with what your mom-in-law said. Who knows what she had there, maybe it was bad for some other reason. But she either got a bad batch from Costco or she's figured out a way to get a free jug fedexed in a hurry. ;) But I would certainly agree bad syrup would be bad for the retail market.

I'm still wondering about some of Dr. Tims earlier comments. There is a way to process buddy, metabolized or fermented syrup into good tasting syrup, so good you'd have to know exactly what to look for in a specialized lab or you would never know it was ever bad. It is dooable and cost effective. It is currently not legal, for unknown reasons..and he is not aware that anyone in the industry is pushing for it. Now why do you suppose that is...I don't get it. I'm starting to think this process might only be known to the Maple Research Center at this time? :confused:
Whatever the reason is, he seemed to be seeking input from all you good producers out there for your opinions on this. Speak up, it could make a difference. :)

[spud]

Big-Eddy I meant no disrespect to your mother in law. My point was I just don't see Costco jugging bad syrup. That's a big company and I'm sure quality is important to them. I bought it from Costco for many years and never good a bad jug but out of respect for your mother in law she may of got a bad jug. I do think many sugar maker will bash the syrup sold in stores only because their jelious that their syrup is not in the stores. Lets face it we would all like to sell one million quarts to Costco or Wal-Mart.

Spud

[blissville maples]

general to your post days ago-- no packer or buyer is buying syrup to make producers happy!! lol bruce Bascom isn't in it to lose money by buying syrup he cant sell- that's a fact. theres always a market....candles, cereals, etc many many more they don't use table grade for this!!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I LOVE YOU GUYS:)

Spud, Parker and Eddys mother in law

[PerryFamily]

Bascom paid $1.75 per pound on Saturday for dark good flavored syrup
If you can get $1.95 for off flavored I'd ship it

[GeneralStark]

Looks like the federation vaults will be "bursting at the seams" with good table syrup after this season's bumper crop!! Will the price of buddy syrup go up seeing as there is such a huge demand for it? After all there is lots of cereal and candles to be made!!

Or will it continue to drop in price as they try to make room for the epic 2016 crop?

https://www.themaplenews.com/story/quebec-crop-could-be-a-whopper/63/

[DrTimPerkins]

Looks like the federation vaults will be "bursting at the seams" with good table syrup after this season's bumper crop!!

The Quebec crop is no doubt good this year in some areas, particularly west of Montreal. Further north near Quebec City, production is still good, but lower. Given the weather over the weekend and forecast this week, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they are making buddy syrup before too much longer.

[DaveB]

The Quebec crop is no doubt good this year in some areas, particularly west of Montreal. Further north near Quebec City, production is still good, but lower. Given the weather over the weekend and forecast this week, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they are making buddy syrup before too much longer.

Is there much production north of Quebec City or on the Gaspe? There's places that still have over 30" of snow on the ground (http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/interactive/html/map.html?ql=station&zoom=&loc=38.30+N%2C+64.80+W&var=ssm_depth&snap=1&o9=1&o12=1&o13=1&lbl=m&mode=pan&extents=us&min_x=-127&min_y=20.716666666663&max_x=-62.000000000003&max_y=57.283333333329&coord_x=++-64.80&coord_y=+++38.30&zbox_n=49.36055555555136&zbox_s=38.3092962962923&zbox_e=-64.72187500000287&zbox_w=-75.36562500000238&metric=0&bgvar=dem&shdvar=shading&width=800&height=450&nw=800&nh=450&h_o=0&font=0&js=1&uc=0) there and the end of the month looks to be cooler still.

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there much production north of Quebec City or on the Gaspe?

Not much yet.

[GeneralStark]

Certainly not a great deal of producers north of Quebec City but quite a few in the Gaspe region.

http://wpmedia.business.financialpost.com/2015/04/syrupregionproduction.jpg?quality=60&strip=all&w=980&h=820

[WestfordSugarworks]

Do you folks know how late they typically boil in the northern most maple producing regions? I've always been curious about this.

[DaveB]

Do you folks know how late they typically boil in the northern most maple producing regions? I've always been curious about this.

It looks like places around Sanguenay or Gaspe area still have decent weather and snow cover:

http://weather.gc.ca/city/pages/qc-166_metric_e.html?unit=imperial

[CBOYER]

They are a lot of big producers in Bas-st Laurent (The "A "on the General stark map). They produce around 22% of Quebec crop. Right now they are at around a third of their season. They usualy produce syrup up to the second week of May.

Here in Milan (where is Lapierre Sugarbush) i will boil for last tomorrow, sap still good for me in bucket, but reds are blooming