Membrane housing port size?

[sugaring in vt]

So I've been looking at housings for a possible home built ro. The 4x40" housings I have found have three different options for connection size. I was wondering if there's a benefit or a downside to one over the other? The sizes I found come in 1/4",1/2" and 3/4" ports. They also come with clamps or with the u bolts to hold the ends on. Is there any problems with either of these options or just personal preference in what you use? Thanks for replies.

[Diesel Pro]

I look at the U pin units thinking there is no worry about blowing off the end caps. Also the dual port where they have side and end ports looks pretty handy. Not sure how much rotation you can get out of the U pin caps though, but I guess you could always drill more holes. The 1/2" ports are what I have and seem to be most common. Same ports as a carbonator pump etc.

[sugaring in vt]

I was thinking the u bolt would be more secure to but worried about getting replacement pieces as the clamp style seems to be more common. Having all the same size fittings would be nice. I'll have to pay attention to what is available so I don't end up with a bunch of different sizes. I appreciate the help from someone who's already done the work of figuring out how to make it work.
Mark

[maple flats]

Check into the pressure ratings for each style, the ratings are not the same. I have the 2 pc. clamp style, which is good for 300 PSI max, some other type is good to 500 PSI in the same SS housing. Just be sure you don't miss match ratings, going heavier than needed will not fail, going lighter can cause big damage and injure or worse someone nearby.

[sugaring in vt]

Thanks, that is good information to have. I believe the housings I looked at were all rated at 300 psi .I will definitely watch the ratings so no one will get hurt from a failure. I am just getting started on this so I'm reading everything I can on it and trying to ask questions I haven't seen answers to yet. I figure if I start now I don't have to rush for next season and can hopefully avoid making a bunch of mistakes setting it up.
Thanks mark

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

for flow purposes I would go with 3/4, even though the procon pumps or others are 1/2.

[NH Maplemaker]

The 4" stainless steel housings are rated for 300 PSI, But Dan at Eastern RO told me the other day that a lot of people have been saying that they are blowing end caps out at that pressure! He said that the fiberglass housings will handle greater pressure ! I for one had that problem with the stainless steel canisters. But bye running XLE 40-40, I run my RO at 250 PSI and they do a Great job as they are a low pressure membrane! My new RO for next year has 8" membranes so will have to start looking for a good replacement membrane for when I need to change them out! Hope this helps.

[sugaring in vt]

for flow purposes I would go with 3/4, even though the procon pumps or others are 1/2.
If I was to go with the 3/4 " I would assume it would be best to adapt to that right out of the pump and use 3/4" lines to run from pump to housings as well.

[sugaring in vt]

The 4" stainless steel housings are rated for 300 PSI, But Dan at Eastern RO told me the other day that a lot of people have been saying that they are blowing end caps out at that pressure! He said that the fiberglass housings will handle greater pressure ! I for one had that problem with the stainless steel canisters. But bye running XLE 40-40, I run my RO at 250 PSI and they do a Great job as they are a low pressure membrane! My new RO for next year has 8" membranes so will have to start looking for a good replacement membrane for when I need to change them out! Hope this helps.
Thanks for the information. I was planning on using that very membrane. It seems to be a popular choice for people building there own. I don't plan on pushing the limits on this when using it. I only have a 2x3 four channel pan so I'm just trying to save some wood and time so it doesn't feel like work by the end of the season. I put out 85 taps this year with half of them on 3/16 tubing. Needless to say when I start a weekend boiling with 180 gallons of sap to process I'm pretty sick of it by Sunday night. Lol of course if this works good I'll probably start looking for more trees. It's a viscous cycle :lol:

[NH Maplemaker]

The thing is the price for the fiberglass are about the same as the Stainless, so if building new that's the time to go with the better ones.

[wiam]

Thanks for the information. I was planning on using that very membrane. It seems to be a popular choice for people building there own. I don't plan on pushing the limits on this when using it. I only have a 2x3 four channel pan so I'm just trying to save some wood and time so it doesn't feel like work by the end of the season. I put out 85 taps this year with half of them on 3/16 tubing. Needless to say when I start a weekend boiling with 180 gallons of sap to process I'm pretty sick of it by Sunday night. Lol of course if this works good I'll probably start looking for more trees. It's a viscous cycle :lol:

I would look at MES. They have membranes built to their specs for a pretty good price.

[sugaring in vt]

The thing is the price for the fiberglass are about the same as the Stainless, so if building new that's the time to go with the better ones.
I will look into the fiberglass housings. The stainless ones I found were about $110 shipped which I thought was pretty good deal. I have seen some of them as high as $200.

[sugaring in vt]

I would look at MES. They have membranes built to their specs for a pretty good price.
Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't heard of that company before . I'll look at what they have to offer and see if I can find a membrane that fits my needs for a good price.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

yes I have blown the end caps off the pressure got so high so fast I didnt see what it went to. This year the pressure went to at least 375/400 and they didnt blow, but run mine at constant 250/265. im going to buy a pressure transducer and have unit turn down the VFD or shut it off when it goes past 260 psi.

yes go 3/4 all the way to your flow gauge, If you can find a flow gauge that goes .5 to 5 3/4" do that but I never found one only 1/2" .5 to 5.

Bowhunter had me build in a recirc line,WOW wish I had done that 3 years ago!!

MES membrane price for a 4040 is right around 225/230$ each. Clayton is awesome

[jimsudz]

yes I have blown the end caps off the pressure got so high so fast I didnt see what it went to. This year the pressure went to at least 375/400 and they didnt blow, but run mine at constant 250/265. im going to buy a pressure transducer and have unit turn down the VFD or shut it off when it goes past 260 psi.

yes go 3/4 all the way to your flow gauge, If you can find a flow gauge that goes .5 to 5 3/4" do that but I never found one only 1/2" .5 to 5.

Bowhunter had me build in a recirc line,WOW wish I had done that 3 years ago!!

MES membrane price for a 4040 is right around 225/230$ each. Clayton is awesome

Can someone post a schematic of the recirc line. This is my ROs only downfall.Thanks

[sugaring in vt]

yes I have blown the end caps off the pressure got so high so fast I didnt see what it went to. This year the pressure went to at least 375/400 and they didnt blow, but run mine at constant 250/265. im going to buy a pressure transducer and have unit turn down the VFD or shut it off when it goes past 260 psi.

yes go 3/4 all the way to your flow gauge, If you can find a flow gauge that goes .5 to 5 3/4" do that but I never found one only 1/2" .5 to 5.


Bowhunter had me build in a recirc line,WOW wish I had done that 3 years ago!!

MES membrane price for a 4040 is right around 225/230$ each. Clayton is awesome
I m planning on using a procon pump with a 250 psi relief pressure. Does that mean the pump will not pump over that pressure or will the needle valve restriction override that number and let the system pressure go higher. Just trying to make sure I am understanding everything that's going on while the system is running. The membrane price you posted looks like a good deal. The ones I've looked at have been around $250. Does your recirculating line go into the pump feed or back to the tank? I've heard it being done both ways and sounds like going into the pump line is the preferred way.
Mark

[bowhunter]

The relief valve limits the pressure to 250 psi. The needle valve controls the pressure up to 250. The recirculation line normally goes back into the pump inlet line between the pump and the sediment filter.

[bowhunter]

Ok. I'll try to talk you through the recirculation line. If you want a simple schematic just send me a private message with your e-mail address. So the concentrate is plumbed like this. The concentrate line coming out of the membrane is split into two separate flows with a "tee". One leg of the "tee" goes through a needle valve and into the concentrate flow meter. This is the net concentrate flow out of the RO. The other leg of the "tee" goes through another needle valve and "tee's" back into the pump inlet. This is the recirculation line. The system works like this. You start the pressure pump with both needle valves open 1/2 way or so. You use the recirculation needle valve to control the pressure. Closing the valve increases the system pressure. Use the concentrate needle valve to adjust the concentrate flow. To get the desired pressure and concentrate flow you will probably have to make a couple of adjustments. You should also have a flow meter on the permeate. Use the combination of the recirculation needle valve and the concentrate needle valve to get the split you want between concentrate and permeate. If you remove 50% of the water the concentrate flow and permeate flow will be equal. This will double the sap sugar content. If you want to remove more water you have to increase the pressure and reduce the concentrate flow. Hope this helps.

[sugaring in vt]

Thanks bowhunter for the explanations. So it sounds like you only re circulate a portion of the sap. I see you use a pump without a relief valve so I assume it's not a necessity. I was looking at a 125 gph pump but it was suggested I go with a 240 gph if in the future I want to add a second housing. Does the recirculating require a little more pump volume or does it not make a difference .
Mark

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i think Fluid O Teck pumps have more GPH same pressure I would check them out. I want to say i paid 575 for pump and motor a few years ago (single phase).

[jimsudz]

On my home build I have 2 xle 4040's in series.I have a 330gpm procon being feed by a feed pump. My concentrate flow is controlled by a valve built into flowmeter.My problem is that my concentrate flow is 4.5-4.75 gpm and permeate flow is 1.5-1.75gpm,sometimes 2gpm with warmer sap. Ican not get the flow down to get the sugar% up like I'd like. I tend to run at 280psi, even though there isn't much difference in flows from 250 psi . Is my pump to big,should I add a third membrane, will that help get the flow down? I'm getting 100-120 g of water removal / hr but would like more. Right now the RO is my bottle neck.Is The recric loop that Bowhunter is explaining going to allow me to get the pressure down so I can get the sugar % up and higher water removal?

[wishlist]

Couple things Jim. You need those flows to help with premature fouling and are you using xle4040's?
If so, I see no benefit in running those pressures so high. My 3 membrane xle's I run at 190psi. With the Goulds booster pump I run 3.5 gpm permeate and 5-5.5 gpm concentrate. This is with about 40 degree sap. Colder sap is a bit less. I can have 1000 gallon in the tank and by the time the permeate slows down to 2 gpm I know I have 12% concentrate. I did take it to 14 % once this year and it was like the energizer bunny......keeps going and going ! Imo, higher flows ( up to 14 gpm) and low pressures work real well with the" extra low energy " membranes.

As far as port size , I have 2 that are the common ss vessels with 1/2" ports. When I needed another vessel for the 3rd membrane I did find one that I really like . It's 3/4" concentrate port and 1/2" permeate port . What is nice is instead of the 2 orings that go inside the vessel and can be a troublesome to get out the end cap , it uses 1 o-ring and clamps down on the flange of the vessel. Real easy to remove when needed. From the booster pump is feed the larger 3/4" vessel first in the series then the remaining 2 vessels are 1/2".