RO setup

[nymapleguy607]

I'm looking at double my tap count this coming year and to do that without swimming in sap I think an RO is going to be needed. I have been looking and I think I will be going with an MES Dolly 225gph expandable ro. What I would like to know is what other pieces need to be there to make it work. The ro doesnt come with a wash tank so I will need to build one into the ro room. To feed the ro I have counted 3 sources so far, the raw sap tank, the wash tank, and the permiate tank. Output side of the ro would be the raw sap tank, the head tank and then the wash tank. From talking with Clayton he recommends recirculating the sap through the raw sap tank to remove the most water the fastest, and then concentrating one final time and sending it to the head tank. Does this sound like a typical setup or what would you change?
Thanks Jeff

[Urban Sugarmaker]

First let me say that if you haven't seen the Dolly in person, it's very well done. Everything you described will work fine. I didn't have enough time to build my wash tank stand before the season. I used a 7 gallon SS brew pot and heated the wash water on my finisher stand. This is a pain, so finishing the wash stand, adding a heating element, and plumbing it into the system is a priority this summer. You could always just build a stand on castors and move it separately. I definitely recommend an "on board" heater for your wash tank, and this could be just a bucket heater.

I ran my concentrate back to my concentrate tank for recirculation back to the RO. The permeate went to the permeate barrels. I like what Clayton is suggesting, and he is right. But, my setup is in the basement and my trailer with the raw sap is outside. I might modify this to do as he suggests, and I think it will actually speed up the process.

For me the hard part was having the RO in the basement, and the evaporator in the detached garage. Too much back and forth with fear of burning my pan, or my concentrate line falling out of the tank and pumping on the floor. My point is to think about the logistics of everything that's happening. If I could have set up the RO in the garage, it would be so much easier.

My only other suggestion would be to try and get a stainless steel tank for concentrate that you can easily access for cleaning, and that drains completely. It won't take long for it to stink like spoiled sap if it's not completely cleaned between uses.

[stewardsdairy]

One other tank I wish I had in my setup is a second permeate tank to bank water to clean the RO on small runs or for end of the year final washing.

[Diesel Pro]

I really like the dolly config. I'm on the 4th season with my home build unit. I did not do a wash tank or recirc. My work is done outside all in close proximity to stationary tanks and the evaporator. I have several poly leg tanks (3 at 65 gallons and 1 at 125 gallons) that I use for processing. Two of my 65's ride in my Polaris Ranger. I use these to collect and to hold concentrate or permeate. When I am finished I rinse the RO from tank to tank filling fully to "clean" them. This has worked exceptionally well for me so far this season with no visible fungus growing.

My finishing rig is a custom stainless pot that I had built with a 1/2" NPT stub. This works prefect to connect to my filter press. I think I am going to use this to do my soap as well. Just need to add the appropriate female milker line fitting to the stub.

[bowhunter]

My setup is smaller, but the concept is probably the same. I handle 125 taps with a 1/2 pint and a small RO and can handle more. If your sugar house isn't heated then you need a portable RO so you can move it to a warm place when not in use. I'm not sure you need an RO that big for 500 taps with a Patriot 2 x 6 and steam away. Your boil rate must be 40 gph? The size of the RO is determined by several factors: number of taps and expected sap generation, boil rate of your evaporator, sugar content of sap and how many hours a day you want to process on a high flow day. You can choose a large RO and process quickly as Clayton says, but I'm not sure that's the best way to go.

I don't like to store concentrate and I wouldn't recirculate back to my sap tank routinely. Concentrate doesn't keep well and will foul up your sap tank pretty quickly. I set my RO to feed directly into my evaporator directly and adjust the RO flow to balance with my boil rate. In your case you would flow concentrate into your head tank to allow the level control to control flow of sap into the evaporator.

[wiam]

Last year I put a 900 gph to in front of a 2x6. Once I got ahead a little with second pass I could switch back and forth from first to second pass and keep up with my boil rate.

[Russell Lampron]

I'm looking at double my tap count this coming year and to do that without swimming in sap I think an RO is going to be needed. I have been looking and I think I will be going with an MES Dolly 225gph expandable ro. What I would like to know is what other pieces need to be there to make it work. The ro doesnt come with a wash tank so I will need to build one into the ro room. To feed the ro I have counted 3 sources so far, the raw sap tank, the wash tank, and the permiate tank. Output side of the ro would be the raw sap tank, the head tank and then the wash tank. From talking with Clayton he recommends recirculating the sap through the raw sap tank to remove the most water the fastest, and then concentrating one final time and sending it to the head tank. Does this sound like a typical setup or what would you change?
Thanks Jeff

All of that sounds good. The only thing that I did differently was add a separate tank to recirculate the concentrate into. My raw sap goes through the RO and the concentrate goes into the "sweet" tank. When the raw sap tank is empty I switch the feed to the RO so that it pumps out of the sweet tank and and back into it. When the sweet tank is concentrated enough I send the concentrate to the head tank for the evaporator. I installed a 3 way valve so that I can send concentrate to the evaporator or back to the sweet tank while I am boiling.


My setup is smaller, but the concept is probably the same. I handle 125 taps with a 1/2 pint and a small RO and can handle more. If your sugar house isn't heated then you need a portable RO so you can move it to a warm place when not in use. I'm not sure you need an RO that big for 500 taps with a Patriot 2 x 6 and steam away. Your boil rate must be 40 gph? The size of the RO is determined by several factors: number of taps and expected sap generation, boil rate of your evaporator, sugar content of sap and how many hours a day you want to process on a high flow day. You can choose a large RO and process quickly as Clayton says, but I'm not sure that's the best way to go.

I don't like to store concentrate and I wouldn't recirculate back to my sap tank routinely. Concentrate doesn't keep well and will foul up your sap tank pretty quickly. I set my RO to feed directly into my evaporator directly and adjust the RO flow to balance with my boil rate. In your case you would flow concentrate into your head tank to allow the level control to control flow of sap into the evaporator.

A big RO is the way to go. As soon as I can afford it I am selling my 125 and getting a 600. I have 700 taps on high vacuum and a 2x6.


Last year I put a 900 gph to in front of a 2x6. Once I got ahead a little with second pass I could switch back and forth from first to second pass and keep up with my boil rate.

Do you ever just do a single pass? If so how high can you concentrate too?

[wiam]

I concentrate to around 18%. So single pass is probably not a good idea. I usually first pass to 6-7 and then run it again.

[nymapleguy607]

Thanks for the input guys. I am planning on close to 500 taps on high vac my evaporator will boil 72gph but I dont believe it will keep up. I am hoping to the boils at or below 3 hours. One question I have is how do you know how much water to rinse with? I had thought about using a 400 gallon tank to pump raw sap into, then a 150 gallon head tank for the evaporator. For permiate I thought about a couple of cage tanks on top of each other.

[mellondome]

You will need to have permeate storage that is at least the same as the rate of concentration ( 300 gph ro .... at least 300 gal permeate storage) the more permeate you can store the better. Especially for end of season washing and storage.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

I recently set up an RO for myself last year after boiling 20 cord in 2014. For your new set up I learned a few things that I would recommend adding to the set up. First Tank size for 500 taps and a 225 RO.
Raw sap tank - I like the idea of 2 gal per tap - so a 1000 gal tank would be ideal.
Concentrate tank, - 300 gal would be good, 500 would be better. A 300 would hold all the concentrate from a full sap tank and would feed your evap for 4 hours at the boil rate of 72 gph.
Permeate tank - I was told ideally you have something that is 3 times the size of the RO's gph. so 225 * 3 = 675. I would go one step further and get another 1,000 gal tank. Once you have processed all your sap for the day, you will first use 200-250 gal of sap to rinse the RO. Then run a wash cycle, then run another 450-500 gal of permeate through for a final clean rinse. Then you are ready for the next run with a clean RO and still have a couple hundred gal of perm to wash everything down.

Keep in mind, there will be days when you arrive in the morning and your 1K tank is full. Then the sun comes out and your releaser starts dumping another 2 gal per tap that day. On those days you will process 2,000 gal of sap with your RO and on those days, a 300 gal concentrate tank may not be big enough.

Another thing that the extra permeate storage will give you is lots of clean water to wash everything. The only other thing that I would suggest is to have all your tanks adequately elevated above where the RO will be. Especially the raw sap and Permeate tanks because good head pressure on the RO makes it run nice and you have no need for extra pumps.

Good luck,
Ben

[Russell Lampron]

Thanks for the input guys. I am planning on close to 500 taps on high vac my evaporator will boil 72gph but I dont believe it will keep up. I am hoping to the boils at or below 3 hours. One question I have is how do you know how much water to rinse with? I had thought about using a 400 gallon tank to pump raw sap into, then a 150 gallon head tank for the evaporator. For permiate I thought about a couple of cage tanks on top of each other.

I've got 2 cage tanks side by side for permeate storage. I have them plumbed together at the valves so that they both fill and or drain at the same time. I can also close the valve on one tank to save it for low sap flow days. My RO is a 125 and I have 550 gallons of permeate storage. On some of the bigger runs that isn't enough.

[SeanD]

The only other thing that I would suggest is to have all your tanks adequately elevated above where the RO will be. Especially the raw sap and Permeate tanks because good head pressure on the RO makes it run nice and you have no need for extra pumps.

This is a great thread. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

I just learned about feeding the RO from above after talking with Ray G this week. Unfortunately, my collection tank is at the lowest spot at the sugar house and everything slopes up from there. So, I've had to rethink my set up. A picture is literally worth a 1,000 words, so would any of you mind looking at how I think I have to organize the order of the tanks and RO. It seems like I'll have liquid going every which way. If there is a smarter way, I'm all ears.

14162

Thanks,
Sean

[mellondome]

Do as much of your plumbing with maple line... instead of pvc. You wont have to mess with the glue. And after the 3rd time you want to change something, it wont look like you cobbled it together from the scrap pile you local plumber was throwing out. Use tiger flex on the supply lines.

[lastwoodsman]

Do as much of your plumbing with maple line... instead of pvc. You wont have to mess with the glue. And after the 3rd time you want to change something, it wont look like you cobbled it together from the scrap pile you local plumber was throwing out. Use tiger flex on the supply lines.

Why have I not thought of this!! Good tip-----

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Sean,

I looked at your pic. I assume you are pumping the sap from the lowest tank into the tank that feeds the RO (sap/con tank)? If that is the case, can it be located up the hill to the right of the picture. Same with the Perm tank? In the interest of saving room in the sugarhouse, I would try to build a little platform, or pour a small pad up the hill from the sugarhouse and put a small roof over it. That way your raw sap tank at the bottom can pump the sap to the sap tank that will feed the RO. Then gravity will feed the RO, and the RO will pump the perm and concentrate up to each tank. Now with your Perm tank in the same place, you can feed the RO and feed the sugarhouse with water for cleaning.

Another thing I learned the hard way with the Permeate tank. On big run days my tank runs over, or at least it did. And on some days it ran over a lot. This caused the soil to wash away under the tank supports and my 2000 lb metal lined SS tank started to move on me. When it is full, it weights close to 18,000 lbs. So movement is not so good. My suggestion is to build in a nice drain into the floor if you pour a pad, or set up an overflow on the top of the tank so when it is full, the access goes into a ditch away from the sugarhouse and tank locations.

Good luck,
Ben

[lastwoodsman]

Sean,

I looked at your pic. I assume you are pumping the sap from the lowest tank into the tank that feeds the RO (sap/con tank)? If that is the case, can it be located up the hill to the right of the picture. Same with the Perm tank? In the interest of saving room in the sugarhouse, I would try to build a little platform, or pour a small pad up the hill from the sugarhouse and put a small roof over it. That way your raw sap tank at the bottom can pump the sap to the sap tank that will feed the RO. Then gravity will feed the RO, and the RO will pump the perm and concentrate up to each tank. Now with your Perm tank in the same place, you can feed the RO and feed the sugarhouse with water for cleaning.

Another thing I learned the hard way with the Permeate tank. On big run days my tank runs over, or at least it did. And on some days it ran over a lot. This caused the soil to wash away under the tank supports and my 2000 lb metal lined SS tank started to move on me. When it is full, it weights close to 18,000 lbs. So movement is not so good. My suggestion is to build in a nice drain into the floor if you pour a pad, or set up an overflow on the top of the tank so when it is full, the access goes into a ditch away from the sugarhouse and tank locations.

Good luck,
Ben


Rays unit needs to be gravity fed and that is the 250 gallon steel bulk tank I use. The unit pumps the concentrate up to the plastic 150 gallon head tank which is plenty big for use with the RO.
I save in three blue food grade barrels 150 gallons of permeate and have that on hand for rinsing at the end of the day. I rinse with 50 gallons of permeate at the end of the day and do a 5/10 gallon warm water wash.
Set at 6% my evaporator keeps up with the ro which is nice.

[JoeJ]

I would suggest doing what Ben said. Elevate the tanks for gravity flow such as I did.14166

Joe

[SeanD]

Sean,

I looked at your pic. I assume you are pumping the sap from the lowest tank into the tank that feeds the RO (sap/con tank)? If that is the case, can it be located up the hill to the right of the picture. Same with the Perm tank? In the interest of saving room in the sugarhouse, I would try to build a little platform, or pour a small pad up the hill from the sugarhouse and put a small roof over it. That way your raw sap tank at the bottom can pump the sap to the sap tank that will feed the RO. Then gravity will feed the RO, and the RO will pump the perm and concentrate up to each tank. Now with your Perm tank in the same place, you can feed the RO and feed the sugarhouse with water for cleaning.

Another thing I learned the hard way with the Permeate tank. On big run days my tank runs over, or at least it did. And on some days it ran over a lot. This caused the soil to wash away under the tank supports and my 2000 lb metal lined SS tank started to move on me. When it is full, it weights close to 18,000 lbs. So movement is not so good. My suggestion is to build in a nice drain into the floor if you pour a pad, or set up an overflow on the top of the tank so when it is full, the access goes into a ditch away from the sugarhouse and tank locations.

Good luck,
Ben

Yes, that's what I'm thinking. That low tank on the left is my collection tank and everything slopes upward from there. It's hard to tell with the snow, but the conc. tanks and perm. tanks will be a few inches higher than the RO.

I should also say that the tanks and RO will be outside right where they are pictured.

I hadn't considered overflow and a washout. That's the kind of experience and info you can't put a price on. Thanks for that!

[wiam]

"Uniseal's" work great for overflows. Make sure to go oversize. I have 1" permeate line on my 900. I have a 1 1/4" overflow. Not big enough. It will overflow. Can't put enough through with just gravity. I added another 1 1/2 overflow. Now it works.

[mellondome]

Why have I not thought of this!! Good tip-----

After replumbing my first ro 3 times with pvc.. it finally clicked that there must be a better and cheaper way that still looks presentable.