Can 5/16 act the same as 3/16 under the right conditions?

[mwarren]

I tried to search this topic on the forum but was unable to find anything. Hopefully this hasn't been discussed a bunch already...If so, please point me in the right direction to the previous posts.

My question is, if I have a section of woods with a 30 foot drop from the last tap to the collection tank, is it possible to get the same results with 5/16 as with 3/16? I would assume that you would just need to raise the number of taps on the line a bit, but once you have the correct ratio (number of taps to fill the line with sap), it shouldn't be any different than the 3/16 right?

Perhaps you need slightly longer drop (more than 30 feet) and slightly more taps to make it equal... Anyone have thoughts?

Mike

[motowbrowne]

The short answer is no, 5/16 can not be easily made to create vacuum like 3/16 can. It can create vacuum under some circumstances, but 3/16 is much much better at it.
3/16 is also pretty cheap.

[Bucket Head]

Well, sort of. I have had readings of 8 and 12 inches of vacuum on 5/16 line with 33 and 44 taps on the lines- but without the required 30 feet of drop after the last tap. If you have enough slope and enough taps to fill the bigger line, you'll get vacuum. However, the 5/16 will not "hold" that measurement. It would only generate that much vacuum on a great sap flow day. Slow days would not do that much vacuum. The 3/16 seems to hold its vacuum better on variable flow days.

[CampHamp]

Because of surface tension, 3/16 evacuates air at the same speed as sap. You get a line with heavy, 80% sap columns pulling vac. Sap will flow underneath air in 5/16 unless your line is pretty flat or the sap is moving quickly (high volume). I bet you'd need 100 taps to get your sap moving fast enough to push the air out... you could test it with a 5/16 section and a water hose (varying water flow and tube incline) to see what flow you need to push air through with the liquid.

[woodey24]

I have what is probably a rookie question. Does it require special taps to put the 3/16 on? If not does it require one of those tools to get the tubing to fit onto the tap? I would like to do some tubing next year to eliminate some buckets and if I can get more sap in the process, I'm in. At this point we only have 70 taps so buying special taps to use the tubing with would not be out of line. Thanks.

[psparr]

They make seasonal spouts for the 3/16 about $0.27 a piece. You can use 5/16 drops and taps but it's not any easier than running all 3/16. It's tough putting taps on without a tool, but can be done. Also even tougher adding T's in the line for your drops. For that you should have a tool. Makes life so much easier. You won't regret going to 3/16 if you have the slope. I get as much sap from 40 taps on 3/16 as I did on almost 200 on buckets.

[woodey24]

I have some areas that have the slope. Others I just want to put 4 or 5 trees together with a drop of only 5 feet or so. Even if it doesn't get as much of the vacuum because of the shorter drop the benefit of only collecting in one spot is worth it. Gonna have to put one of those tools on my list for santa.... The increase in sap is exciting...

[Cedar Eater]

I have what is probably a rookie question. Does it require special taps to put the 3/16 on? If not does it require one of those tools to get the tubing to fit onto the tap? I would like to do some tubing next year to eliminate some buckets and if I can get more sap in the process, I'm in. At this point we only have 70 taps so buying special taps to use the tubing with would not be out of line. Thanks.

Not all spout types are available with 3/16" barbs, at least not this year. D&G has a black nylon spout with a 3/16 barb. There may be others. If you want a specific spout that is only available with a 5/16" barb, you can convert from 5/16" to 3/16" with a connector on the dropline or with a 3/16 X 5/16 X 3/16 tee from CDL. The cheapest 3/16" tubing that I've seen is Leader 30P and it is rigid. You don't need a tool to force the tubing onto the barbs. You can dip the end of the tubing in a thermos of hot water for a few seconds and then force it onto the barb where it will grip very well. It can be tricky trying to route the tubing first and then hold tension on it as you cut the tubing to insert tees for each dropline and spout. The ends try to pull away when you cut. It's not that hard to prevent with a little paracord.

[motowbrowne]

Instead of paracord,I just strung the 3/16 line where I wanted it and marked with a sharpie where I needed Ts. Then I let the line drop, cut it at the marks and inserted Ts using the hot water method.

I might buy the tool to do the 350 tap installation I'm planning this fall, though.

[Cedar Eater]

Instead of paracord,I just strung the 3/16 line where I wanted it and marked with a sharpie where I needed Ts. Then I let the line drop, cut it at the marks and inserted Ts using the hot water method.

I might buy the tool to do the 350 tap installation I'm planning this fall, though.

That works fine, but if you're walking back and forth through deep snow (even on snowshoes) to retrieve the ends when they pull away, it can be a lot of extra steps and take a lot longer. I plan to run new lines in the late Fall before the snows. It was tough running them this year with the deep snow.

[wilson maple]

What size taps are u using on our 5\16 line when trying to hit this high vacuum? They are using 5\16 taps on the 3\16 line. Would 7\16 taps on 5\16 line be the same as what there telling us for 3\16 line. I've put up to 40, 7\16 taps on a 5\16 line with little slope and have had decent pressure on the line.

[woodey24]

Cedar Eater; I am not set on a specific tap by any means. I will still probably still have some on buckets but would like to tube a bunch together or a bunch of bunches. checking half the buckets would be nice. I have bought all of my supplies from the sugar bush here in Mason. Have you ever been there? They have a fall open house I plan on going to. If you happen to go too, let me know.

[woodey24]

Can you force the 3/16 tube onto the 5/16 tap using the hot water method? I found some taps online from http://www.shopmaplehollowsyrup.com/ecommerce/sap-collection-tubing/3-16%22-sap-tubing-and-fittings.asp
but it says it is 5/16 designed for 3/16 tubing. The leader tubing you spoke of was also listed. I would think that if it can fit on those 5/16 taps it should on any?

[motowbrowne]

Can you force the 3/16 tube onto the 5/16 tap using the hot water method? I found some taps online from http://www.shopmaplehollowsyrup.com/ecommerce/sap-collection-tubing/3-16%22-sap-tubing-and-fittings.asp
but it says it is 5/16 designed for 3/16 tubing. The leader tubing you spoke of was also listed. I would think that if it can fit on those 5/16 taps it should on any?

I haven't tried it, but I'm gonna say that no, you can't get a 5/16 barb into a 3/16 tap. If you're looking at the clear 5/16 tap for 3/16 tubing on that site, 5/16 is the size of the drill bit to use. 3/16 is the tubing size.

[motowbrowne]

What size taps are u using on our 5\16 line when trying to hit this high vacuum? They are using 5\16 taps on the 3\16 line. Would 7\16 taps on 5\16 line be the same as what there telling us for 3\16 line. I've put up to 40, 7\16 taps on a 5\16 line with little slope and have had decent pressure on the line.

I assume you mean vacuum, not pressure. 7/16 will get you a little more sap, but at the expense of much more wounding to the tree. It won't have any effect of
On vacuum other than possibly filling the line a little faster.

The reason to use 5/16 taps and drops on 3/16 line is that there's tons of options for 5/16 taps and only a few for 3/16 so far. Having a 3/16x3/16x5/16 Tee fitting makes this easy.

3/16 tubing is cheap guys. The research is very clear that it's possible to create much higher vacuum with 3/16 than 5/16. The vacuum will be higher, start sooner, and last longer. And again, it costs less money to install. So... Why are we trying to achieve vacuum on 5/16?

[woodey24]

To get my thoughts strait, I need to buy special t's to take the 5/16 line coming from my 5/16 tap and the rest of the t is made for 3/16? Or the 3/16 hose will stretch to fit the 5/16 tap. And the 5/16 clear taps on that site have a 3/16 spout to hook to the 3/16 tubing? The local syrup supply store doesn't have any 3/16 supplies listed so I would have to order online.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just buy 3/16 taps and Ts. CDL has the white Maxflow spouts for 25 cents each so cheap enough to change out every year and tubing is 56.75 for 1,000' rolls. I spend a lot of time helping others with installs and dealing with 3/16 and I much prefer to have everything the same the laterals and drops. About 60% of mine are 3/16 drops and other 40% are 5/16 drops.

One important thing to remember and seems some confusion on this: 3/16 SPOUTS are 5/16 SPOUTS with a 3/16 BARBS coming off the bottom of the spout to accommodate 3/16 tubing. Much nicer doing repairs to just carry on size tubing instead of 2.

[woodey24]

Sounds fantastic..... one more rookie question. Can you post a link to cdl? Your signature says your a dealer for west Virginia and virginia, is there a franchise that sells in michigan?

[ronintank]

http://www.rmgmaple.com/ZenCart/
http://www.cdlusa.net/