question on slope requirement for 30 foot of drop after the last tap on a 3/16

[GV2]

Next season I want to move my 3/16 lines to another stand. After reviewing many threads on 3/16 setups, it sounds like a 30 foot drop after the lowest tap (tap nearest a mainline or collection point) is a consensus. Within reason, how important is the slope for the 30 foot of drop after the lowest tap on a 3/16 lateral? For example if you could get 30 feet of drop in 100 feet versus 30 feet of drop in 200 feet would that work? I am sure the steeper the better, but I was curious if a lower slope that achieves the 30 foot drop requirement could be effective in getting some natural vacuum.

[Cody]

There are some runs in our woods that are only 30 feet long from mainline to last tree on that lateral with only 20 foot drop and they were pulling up to 18'' vacuum.We hooked lateral on mainline and started going up hill and put up to 25 tree's on each lateral,some of the first tree's were only 5'-10' away from mainline with maybe 5' drop.Are 900 tree's gave us 500+ gallons syrup.

[UPMaple]

It will still work fine. It's all about differential pressure.
We are using the 3/16 gravity tubing for the first time this year and are very impressed with the results.
Will be adding more drop lines and storage capacity next year. It's been hard to keep up.

[Cedar Eater]

There is nothing magical about a 30' drop. I have one line that only has about 15' of drop and the lowest tree is only about 4' above the collection point and that line is giving me much more sap per tap than the trees on jugs. Any vacuum is good. There just has to be enough trees pumping out enough sap to get the line to suck, and that doesn't seem to take much.

[rhwells2003]

Will be adding more drop lines and storage capacity next year. It's been hard to keep up.

I have an area with 30-40 taps that is sort of disconnected from my vacuum system, but has good drop and think I could get 3/16 to work well. What are you seeing for results? How many gallons/tap did you see on your set-up? Trying to figure out what size tank I'll need for 30-40 taps

[Big_Eddy]

The vertical drop from the last tap to the outlet directly affects the vacuum at the last tap. More drop = more vacuum, until you hit atmospheric pressure at ~30'. Slope (run) has very little effect as long as the slope is continuous (no sags or ups and downs)

[Ghs57]

I had four 3/16 lines, and only one had over a 30' drop overall. Much less from the last tap to the tank. There was no vac gauge on the lines, but despite the low rise, they all ran great. I plan on putting gauges up next year.

I saw a post last year by Dr. Tim that said some vacuum is better than no vacuum.

[WVKeith]

I have an area with 30-40 taps that is sort of disconnected from my vacuum system, but has good drop and think I could get 3/16 to work well. What are you seeing for results? How many gallons/tap did you see on your set-up? Trying to figure out what size tank I'll need for 30-40 taps

I had a short season here in Northern WV, 2/8/16 - 3/12/16. I collected about 6,150 gallons sap and processed it into approximately 75 gallons of syrup on 325 taps. We had about 4 runs with me collecting 300-600 gallons per day. (A few times I overflowed and lost some sap.) For season totals, I collected 6.7 gal/tap on my 71 jugs, 15.7 gal/tap on my (21 taps) with 10-15 ft. drop natural vacuum, and an average of 22.6 gal/tap on the (237 taps) full natural vacuum, for an overall average of 18.7 gal/tap. One collection tank with 54 taps on two 3/16 lines and good drop averaged 25.8 gallons per tap. As you can see, my sugar content has been pretty low. Somedays I thought that the 3/16 vacuum was working so good that it was sucking water from the ground up through the tree. I constantly saw 25-28 in of vacuum on my highest taps.

[Cody]

I have an area with 30-40 taps that is sort of disconnected from my vacuum system, but has good drop and think I could get 3/16 to work well. What are you seeing for results? How many gallons/tap did you see on your set-up? Trying to figure out what size tank I'll need for 30-40 tapsI would go with at least 2 gals storage per tap.One night it didn't freeze we had 525 gal tank empty at 9:00 pm,at 7:00 am it was just starting to run over that was on 600 tree's.We are thinking of going with a 1100 or 1500 gal tank on that woods.

[Cody]

One day after a hard freeze that woods on the 525 gal tank was coming in at 150 gals an hour.

[UPMaple]

Like Cody said figure on about two gallons per tap minimum. Size depends on how often you want to empty the tanks.

I'm running three drop lines of the 3/16 tubing with around 50 taps. Each drop line has it's own barrel and when the sap was running good last week the barrels were overflowing almost every day.

[binski]

Can anyone suggest what to read or where to get some info on the guidelines/how to install a 3/16" tubing system? I've been picking up a little here and there but don't understand it totally. I would like to try it next year. Thanks for any help or advice you can offer.

[Cody]

On youtube 3/16 maple tubing at Krueger-Norton sugerbush in Vermont. On This site just search 3/16 tubing allot to go through,but you should get a good idea.

[Bucket Head]

I had some slope but did not have the 30 foot drop after the last tap on my five 3/16 lines. The most I could generate was 10 inches of vacuum. Yes, a little disappointing but they all produced sap when my buckets were doing nothing. "Some vacuum is better than no vacuum" is a true statement.

Just don't expect the numbers some folks are getting. Everyone's terrain is different and some (like me) just don't have enough slope for optimum vacuum. I hope to try some Shurflo pumps next year to help out my lack of slope.

Steve

[Cedar Eater]

Can anyone suggest what to read or where to get some info on the guidelines/how to install a 3/16" tubing system? I've been picking up a little here and there but don't understand it totally. I would like to try it next year. Thanks for any help or advice you can offer.

It's actually very simple. Use an end of line hook
http://www.rothsugarbush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/3-16%E2%80%B3-End-of-line-Hook.jpg
for each run. Insert it into the tubing, wrap the tubing around the top tree at about the 6' height (or lower if the top tree is on a slope) at the highest elevation of the sapline, and hook the fitting over the line to make a reasonably tight loop around the tree. Snake the line around as necessary to each tree that you plan to tap, making sure the line always slopes down. Install a tee fitting,
http://www.rothsugarbush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/3-16%E2%80%B3-Health-T.jpg
drop tube (maximum 4'), and spout
http://www.rothsugarbush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/3-16%E2%80%B3-MaxFlow-5-16%E2%80%B3-%E2%80%93-3-16%E2%80%B3-Spout-w-barbs.jpg
at each tree you intend to tap. Use non-maples or maples that are too small to tap for supporting the line as necessary, so that you'll have no unsupported spans greater than 50'. The friction of the bark is normally enough to hold the line up, but you can use rope as required. When you get to the bottom tree (the last tree you will tap for that line), route the line down the slope to the anchor tree where you will place your collection vessel. Try to keep the line high enough so it will not get buried in snowfalls. You could also tie into a mainline, but I'm keeping this simple.

Anchor the bottom end of the line by threading the tubing into the hollow core of cheap woven 1/4" poly rope and then back out about 8" down, and tying this rope around the anchor tree. This works as a tensioner by pulling the sapline toward you while pushing the end of the rope away from you. The woven hollow core rope will degrade before the tubing does, but it's cheap and easy to replace. Now route the line into your collection vessel and tap your trees.

[binski]

Does it matter if the drop tube is 3/16 or 5/16 (other than to make sure the fitting is the same)?
The shurflo pump is to help for flat elevations or where you want/need more vacuum (was wondering about that). Does the shurflo run continuously or just to get the vacuum/flow going?
This helps answer a few questions I had.
Thanks

[motowbrowne]

Does it matter if the drop tube is 3/16 or 5/16 (other than to make sure the fitting is the same)?
The shurflo pump is to help for flat elevations or where you want/need more vacuum (was wondering about that). Does the shurflo run continuously or just to get the vacuum/flow going?
This helps answer a few questions I had.
Thanks

You can use either size for your drop lines. Only reason I can think of to use 5/16 would be to use a specific spout that's not available with a 3/16 barb. Or if you've already got a few rolls of it lying around. Using all 3/16 would make things simpler,I would imagine.

On a system without maximum vacuum provided by gravity, the Shurflo pump increases the vacuum at the taphole. Generally speaking, if it's above freezing, run the pump.

[binski]

Sorry, another question. Generally/typically speaking is the tubing about 3'-4' high from the ground and the tap another 2' or so above that? I understand the end tree (furthest from the tank) is going to be highest but how high is high? Tap about 6' from the ground? I keep thinking I will "run out of tree" buy the time I get to my 30th tree. I guess it doesn't need to slope a whole lot from tree to tree?

[Cody]

Are you tapping on a good slope or flat ground.We tapped all ours about 4' from the ground,but were on a good slope.

[psparr]

Sorry, another question. Generally/typically speaking is the tubing about 3'-4' high from the ground and the tap another 2' or so above that? I understand the end tree (furthest from the tank) is going to be highest but how high is high? Tap about 6' from the ground? I keep thinking I will "run out of tree" buy the time I get to my 30th tree. I guess it doesn't need to slope a whole lot from tree to tree?
You only need about 1-2% slope from tree to tree. Just enough so the sap doesn't pool. then if you can after the last tree start your drop to the collection point.

[Cedar Eater]

3/16" tubing seems to be more tolerant of low gradient slopes and sagging than 5/16" tubing. It's just better for siphoning. You really want to avoid pooling between the top tree and second tree, but after that, bubbles seem to get pulled through high spots fairly easily. But sagging will decrease sap flow some.

[binski]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Now I understand the basics.

[NHguy]

here's a quick -"try it out" suggestion:

After you are done with maple - try setting up a "test" run of 3/16ths in your woods on birch. I had acquired a tool earlier this year, with plans to set up 3/16 natural vac lines next year on my maples.

Now that my maples are done, I went out and tapped a few birch trees and ran some 3/16th tubing to experiment with set up and see for my self how it worked. I cant believe how much sap I'm getting off of the few trees i have tapped! Granted, I do have really good slope where I set up, but I'm amazed. If only I had thought about this before this maple season, I can't imagine how much more syrup I would have made!

It literally pours out of my lines into the collection vessels! Need to get a vaccum gauge so I can see what the number is, and i have never used any type of mechanical vaccuum so have no basis for comparison- but based on comparing it to my gravity maple lines and buckets, it's completely different!

So if you are looking for a way to test and play with 3/16 before you put everything away this year to make plans for next year, tap some of your birches and have fun!

[psparr]

How's the tool working out?

[ADK_XJ]

Can anyone suggest what to read or where to get some info on the guidelines/how to install a 3/16" tubing system? I've been picking up a little here and there but don't understand it totally. I would like to try it next year. Thanks for any help or advice you can offer.
Some great overviews you've already got here...for a more in-depth rundown, you can't go wrong with this article from UVM Proctor: http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/3-16%20Tubing%20-%20Wilmot%20-%20Maple%20News%20Dec%202014a.pdf

[binski]

Excellent article. thank you

[wurmdert]

this is a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQX9L1KnBh8

[Snowmad]

I am also looking at using 3/16 next year. I just got back from the woods counting trees and trying to do some planning before the leaves pop out and so I can take advantage of some of the spring sales. I'm wondering how people are determining slope, or drop? I took my Garmin GPS but that seems horribly inaccurate and I question the acuity of Google Earth. What is the best way? Thanks!

[psparr]

You could get a sight level and shoot a tree, then measure up the tree to the point that you saw. Or just guess. Any slope will be better than gravity tubing.

[Snowmad]

You could get a sight level and shoot a tree, then measure up the tree to the point that you saw. Or just guess. Any slope will be better than gravity tubing.

I'm using buckets now, will it be an improvement over that as well? I guess I shouldn't be so worried with the slope since there is nothing I can do about it. I'm just wondering if it will be worth the effort to change over? I have one place I'll have excellent drop, but it will take 1200' of tubing to get 30 taps. Is it worth it? I've just got a new to me 2'x6' Patriot evaporator and I want to be sure to have enough to feed it. I've also got quite a few red maples. What are the thoughts on tapping those? Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

[Cody]

I'm using buckets now, will it be an improvement over that as well? I guess I shouldn't be so worried with the slope since there is nothing I can do about it. I'm just wondering if it will be worth the effort to change over? I have one place I'll have excellent drop, but it will take 1200' of tubing to get 30 taps. Is it worth it? I've just got a new to me 2'x6' Patriot evaporator and I want to be sure to have enough to feed it. I've also got quite a few red maples. What are the thoughts on tapping those? Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.Yes to all your questions,sap will be better quality and you only have one place to collect from.And your volume of sap will be more per tap,our tree's this year gave us about 30 gallons per tap.If it's a maple tap it.

[psparr]

Especially reds. They can be pretty pathetic on buckets. Hook em up to vac and make em run.

[GV2]

I am also looking at using 3/16 next year. I just got back from the woods counting trees and trying to do some planning before the leaves pop out and so I can take advantage of some of the spring sales. I'm wondering how people are determining slope, or drop? I took my Garmin GPS but that seems horribly inaccurate and I question the acuity of Google Earth. What is the best way? Thanks!

Purchase a Cst Berger pocket sight level. To get the entire hill slope you will need to take multiple readings. For explaining purpose suppose it is 5’ from your eye to the ground. Look through the level and note a spot on the hill where the level bubble is on the level line reading. (maybe use a flag tape to mark what you see at that point on the hill.) Walk up to it counting your paces. Figure out your personal multiplier for paces in feet, say 3 feet per pace. Rise over run will give you the slope. For example 5/30 for 10 paces with 5 feet eye to foot. Repeat until you get to the top of the hill and average your slope calculations.