Cloudy Syrup After Filtering - Twice

[Ghs57]

Several of my batches looked cloudy after filtering. I used a flat filter with 4 pre filters, which is two years old and has filtered under 25 gal in those two years. I bit the bullet and heated those batches up to 180, and this time filtered through a new cone filter with four pre filters. Still cloudy?

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The one ton the left is cloudy, the one on the right is clear, although it is a bit darker and may be hard to see the clarity. The clear one was filtered through the same cone filter a week before the cloudy one.

[RileySugarbush]

Are you reheating after filtering for bottling?

[CampHamp]

A week of sitting will clear-up cloudy syrup (but leave some sediment on the bottom), so is that the difference? Otherwise, since you used the same filter for both batches, I wonder if the issue is in how it was cleaned or if the filter was damaged (people warn against wringing them or folding them).

[Ghs57]

Are you reheating after filtering for bottling?

Good question. I left out some details.

When I reheated for filtering, I went above 180 to to near 200. Don't think I boiled it again. Then filtered through a steamed cone filter. Then rebottled after bringing the temp back up to 180-185.

[n8hutch]

Maybe you got it too hot when you reheated it to bottle after filtering. I had that happen to me once last year looked just like yours. I krept over 195 when I heated it up. I try to stay between 185-190

[Ghs57]

A week of sitting will clear-up cloudy syrup (but leave some sediment on the bottom), so is that the difference? Otherwise, since you used the same filter for both batches, I wonder if the issue is in how it was cleaned or if the filter was damaged (people warn against wringing them or folding them).

These batches sat for a good week or longer after the initial bottling. There was some niter settlement, but they were still cloudy. After the second filtering, no niter or other sediment so far (three days).

The filters were rinsed with hot tap water from the reverse side and never wrung out. Other filtered batches are crystal clear. Both filters and pre filters look pretty good right now. They are somewhat darker in spots. I have not filtered any new batches since the refiltering which was done on Monday, although I will have more once I finish up the syrup left in the pan.

[Ghs57]

Maybe you got it too hot when you reheated it to bottle after filtering. I had that happen to me once last year looked just like yours. I krept over 195 when I heated it up. I try to stay between 185-190

Nate, I really stayed on it, thinking that was what happened the first time. I use an laser thermometer at point blank range, which has always proved reliable. I can't say that is impossible, cause something is causing this.

[psparr]

Good question. I left out some details.

When I reheated for filtering, I went above 180 to to near 200. Don't think I boiled it again. Then filtered through a steamed cone filter. Then rebottled after bringing the temp back up to 180-185.

I believe the problem lies when you reheated to bottle. It takes a good bit of heat to bring a lot of syrup up to 180. The syrup at the bottom of the pot was probably getting well above that.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

how are you heating the syrup. Steam pan or direct heat ?

[Ghs57]

how are you heating the syrup. Steam pan or direct heat ?

Direct heat on my stovetop (commercial gas range in a 12 qt SS stockpot).

[Ghs57]

I believe the problem lies when you reheated to bottle. It takes a good bit of heat to bring a lot of syrup up to 180. The syrup at the bottom of the pot was probably getting well above that.

I am not sure if I stirred these batches while heating to even things out. These were about 2 - 2.5 gal batches. Hard to believe the same thing happened on all four batches twice. I'm not saying it didn't, just that it's hard to accept.

[Ghs57]

I suppose one way to test this would be to re-heat, filter, and re-bottle a batch and check the temp two ways (probe thermometer and laser).

[n8hutch]

The only reason I suggested that you may have gotten it too hot is because that's exactly what I did, I have a water tray under my canner but as the level of syrup dropped in my canner the heat continued to rise and I didn't notice until late it was too late. I just bottled it anyway & Gave it to relatives. It did settle out after some time and the bottom of each bottle was slightly opaque.

[Ghs57]

The only reason I suggested that you may have gotten it too hot is because that's exactly what I did, I have a water tray under my canner but as the level of syrup dropped in my canner the heat continued to rise and I didn't notice until late it was too late. I just bottled it anyway & Gave it to relatives. It did settle out after some time and the bottom of each bottle was slightly opaque.

Thank you Nate and everyone else for your ideas so far. Many of you bottle quite a bit more than I do, so I really appreciate the suggestions and possible causes.

I just checked a bottle for any sign of sediment. There may be a slight film of very fine particles on the bottom. So fine that they may stay in suspension for a long time. Am I right in assuming by filtering through orlon filters I should get perfectly clear syrup, provided the temperature remains below 190 thereafter?

[RileySugarbush]

I lived through this too. For my first couple of years I did just what you did: Filter, reheat and bottle and got sediment when it cooled. Heat and filter and reheat again, more sediment or cloudiness! Sometimes it would settle, other times it would stay suspended and yet other cases it would hover like a cloud in the syrup. It was supremely frustrating!

Here is what I discovered:

When you reheat with direct heat, (gas or electric, it doesn't matter), the boundary layer on the bottom of the pan actually can get up to very high temperatures. If you hear a little hissing sound, like you hear with a tea kettle or coffee maker, that is actually the bottom bit of syrup boiling. You won't necessarily see it, but you can hear it. Boiling can release more niter. The solution is to heat with a double boiler or water jacket bottler so that the syrup can never get hotter than 212 °F, even at the bottom surface.

When we built a water jacket bottler, this problem disappeared and never returned.

Another solution is to bottle hot right out of your filter, but that can be difficult since the syrup temperature drops so quickly. I'd go with the water jacket.

[maple flats]

Syrup is saturated with minerals. As you heat it after filtering it can evavorate enough to cause more minerals to precipitate out, more niter. My answer to this which has worked well for several years, is to heat it to 200-205 to filter, then bring it to 185-190 to bottle and try to keep a cover on it to minimize further steaming off (evaporation albeit slow).

[Ghs57]

I lived through this too. For my first couple of years I did just what you did: Filter, reheat and bottle and got sediment when it cooled. Heat and filter and reheat again, more sediment or cloudiness! Sometimes it would settle, other times it would stay suspended and yet other cases it would hover like a cloud in the syrup. It was supremely frustrating!

Here is what I discovered:

When you reheat with direct heat, (gas or electric, it doesn't matter), the boundary layer on the bottom of the pan actually can get up to very high temperatures. If you hear a little hissing sound, like you hear with a tea kettle or coffee maker, that is actually the bottom bit of syrup boiling. You won't necessarily see it, but you can hear it. Boiling can release more niter. The solution is to heat with a double boiler or water jacket bottler so that the syrup can never get hotter than 212 °F, even at the bottom surface.

When we built a water jacket bottler, this problem disappeared and never returned.

Another solution is to bottle hot right out of your filter, but that can be difficult since the syrup temperature drops so quickly. I'd go with the water jacket.

John, I found the post of your homebuilt WJ. Very interesting. Now I understand what everyone is talking about regarding the hot spots, etc. I know I need to address my canning process, or lack thereof, and will have to do something before next season. Maybe I'll sell enough syrup this year to buy a good canner.

[Ghs57]

Syrup is saturated with minerals. As you heat it after filtering it can evavorate enough to cause more minerals to precipitate out, more niter. My answer to this which has worked well for several years, is to heat it to 200-205 to filter, then bring it to 185-190 to bottle and try to keep a cover on it to minimize further steaming off (evaporation albeit slow).

Dave, I thought that too could be happening. I also know that when heating to can I hear that hissing sound of the syrup boiling on the bottom of the pot. I think I've got a bit of everything going on here.

There is no end to the cost of this addiction. There is always something else you need, something better or more efficient...

[adk1]

Can only filter out so much with gravity filter. A filter press using de will remove most

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

I lived through this too. For my first couple of years I did just what you did: Filter, reheat and bottle and got sediment when it cooled. Heat and filter and reheat again, more sediment or cloudiness! Sometimes it would settle, other times it would stay suspended and yet other cases it would hover like a cloud in the syrup. It was supremely frustrating!

Here is what I discovered:

When you reheat with direct heat, (gas or electric, it doesn't matter), the boundary layer on the bottom of the pan actually can get up to very high temperatures. If you hear a little hissing sound, like you hear with a tea kettle or coffee maker, that is actually the bottom bit of syrup boiling. You won't necessarily see it, but you can hear it. Boiling can release more niter. The solution is to heat with a double boiler or water jacket bottler so that the syrup can never get hotter than 212 °F, even at the bottom surface.

When we built a water jacket bottler, this problem disappeared and never returned.

Another solution is to bottle hot right out of your filter, but that can be difficult since the syrup temperature drops so quickly. I'd go with the water jacket.

I heat for bottling on an electric stove. I do not put the syrup on high, I use a medium setting and keep an eye on it, it may take a little longer to get up to temp. But I get very clear syrup

[maple marc]

Riley is so right. Re-heating on the stove will cause you a lot of heart ache if you are canning into glass. Also IR thermometers ("laser") are not accurate measuring hot liquids. You may have over-heated. I went through this too, learning that the best way on a stove is to slowly bring up to temperature while constantly stirring. If you hear that noise, you are doomed. I agree, the best solution is a water jacket canner.

Marc

[Big_Eddy]

Best to not heat the syrup again after filtering. If you use a cone filter with the cone suspended within a pot or canister with a lid, the syrup will not drop enough in temperature to go below 180, and the heat will keep the filter flowing quickly.

If you must reheat, a simple double boiler pot on your stove works well and removes the hot spot problem.

Laser readers are notoriously bad for reading liquids.

[Ghs57]

For my size operation, I'm thinking I could bottle out of a cone filter tank. I would finish in a pot on a propane burner, then filter and bottle out of that tank, as suggested by Big Eddie. Just have to find a filter tank with a draw off valve that I can afford.

[RileySugarbush]

For my size operation, I'm think I could bottle out of a cone filter tank. I would finish in a pot on a propane burner, then filter and bottle out of that tank, as suggested by Big Eddie. Just have to find a filter tank with a draw off valve that I can afford.

You can solder a copper fitting into any cheap stainless pot and save a bunch of money. I used a half inch ball valve. It is not as easy to control as a nice coffee urn valve like on my water jacket bottler, but it does the job for cheap. You may want to insulate the pot so you keep the filtered syrup hot. Even wrapping it in a towel will help.

[woodey24]

On amazon you can buy a turkey fryer pot with a valve for 140. Sugar bush supplies sells the same thing made for syrup for same price range.

[Ghs57]

You can solder a copper fitting into any cheap stainless pot and save a bunch of money. I used a half inch ball valve. It is not as easy to control as a nice coffee urn valve like on my water jacket bottler, but it does the job for cheap. You may want to insulate the pot so you keep the filtered syrup hot. Even wrapping it in a towel will help.

Cheap is right up my alley. My operation is mostly a monument to the DIY movement, except for the pan.

I've never soldered SS. I didn't know it could be done.

[Ghs57]

On amazon you can buy a turkey fryer pot with a valve for 140. Sugar bush supplies sells the same thing made for syrup for same price range.

I'll take a look. I bought my supplies from them when I started up back in 2014.

[woodey24]

I bought the basket filter that goes with it. I wasn't impressed with the filter but plan on talking to them next time I am in the store.

[RileySugarbush]

Cheap is right up my alley. My operation is mostly a monument to the DIY movement, except for the pan.

I've never soldered SS. I didn't know it could be done.

Very doable. Follow these steps:

Drill a hole in stainless pan with a step drill
Chose a copper fitting that will give a nice joint, something with a little shoulder like a reduction fitting
Scotch bright both parts, copper and stainless shiny
Wet with liquid flux, not the cheap paste for sweating copper
Tin each part with lead free solder using a very low flame on a propane torch. Keep the flame moving. High temp is your enemy.
Fit them together and heat with low flame to melt solder together

[sap seeker]

I have tried several different methods on the cheap to get the perfect finish. I am one of those guys obsessed with a perfect looking glass bottle even though we only give it away. I decided to copy ps parr method to finish my last batch yesterday. Took a bucket, cut a hole, hung my cone filter with two profilers. Heated the coffee urn with water under the covered bucket and it did a nice job steaming the filters. While this was going on, I finished my syrup on the stove and let it cool for just a minute. Meanwhile, dumped the coffee pot and quickly set back under the bucket contraption and poured the hot syrup. The key to not struggling with the filters is to cover the bucket to keep the heat. I didn't waste a 1/2 pint I wouldn't think and it flowed good until nearly the end before I had to remove the first pre filter. In the end, it was probably the best batch I have ever bottled, roughly 1.5 gal. total. It is a bit of work with all the moving parts but certainly a cheap way to bottle good looking syrup. Consider it. Thanks ps parr.

[Daveg]

I heat for bottling on an electric stove. I do not put the syrup on high, I use a medium setting and keep an eye on it, it may take a little longer to get up to temp. But I get very clear syrup

Your syrup is going above 212-220°F at the location where your container is in contact with the 1200°F electric coils.

[Daveg]

14092
Keep your eye out for coffee urns on craigslist. I insulated mine with 1/2" closed-cell foam. My filters get "clothes-pinned" in the urn (after being steamed) so they're suspended off the bottom. I draw off 1° heavy, directly into the urn. Then I check the density one more time and bottle directly from the urn

[campus189]

As far as coffee urns go, check out my recent updated post today.
This may help you out. (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?28309-I-am-done-with-using-funnels-and-ladles-for-bottling)

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

Your syrup is going above 212-220°F at the location where your container is in contact with the 1200°F electric coils.

Maybe, but I get very nice syrup, bottled in glass. I also have some really nice stock pots, not cheap, thin, stainless ones. My finishing pot is an old 7 gallon brew kettle that is made entirely of a thin gauge stainless, if I was bottling from that, I would agree with you.

[Ghs57]

Today I finished and bottled the syrup left in the pan at the end of the season. I bottled without reheating after filtering. The result is very clear syrup, considering what I was working with. This stuff is black. Well, very dark red anyway, and difficult to see through. But I don't see any of the cloudiness evident in the other batches when held against a bright light. The other problem was that this was the biggest finishing batch I've ever had, running about 4 gallons. I bottled in two stages of about 2 gallons each. It was very hard to keep the temp up during filtering and bottling. As you know, the darker the syrup, the more uncooperative it can when filtering. Very slow, even with steamed filters. I kept everything insulated with towels as I went, but by the time I got the caps on, the surface temp of the jars was well below 180.

That's it for new syrup this season. But surely I need to do something about the cloudy batches, which are from 1 to 2.5 gals each. There have been many good ideas shared here. I'm checking for urns, and other options, and may just improvise a double boiler with a couple of nested pots. I really want some way to regulate the temperature after filtering so I'm not running around like a mad man.

[psparr]

Here's my old setup. Worked well.
https://youtu.be/9kdVThgyq_M

[Ghs57]

I have seen that, and I based my filter holder on yours. Wished I had your set up earlier today. I could not find an urn on short notice, but am looking.

[Meuphrat]

Has anyone ever seen, heard or read about sugar sand which is fine enough to go through a filter? I have had some batches from this season that are ending up cloudy after numerous times through multiple types of filter set ups. Methods that have always worked perfectly for me in the past are not working this season. I also heard some comments during the season about the interesting sugar sand being produced. "Fine" "white" "different" "weird" were all words I heard from some experienced sugar makers.
Anyone else notice this?

[maple flats]

Three points, The filter might have been damaged by wringing it. That breaks fibers. Second idea, look up a beer brewers pot, they are SS, available with a draw off valve and thermometer port and they are SS. If you go that route, you could place it in a large shallow pan and hold it up with SS spacers (SS nuts?). Then have water in the lower pan on the burner and heat the syrup indirectly (double boiler fashion). If you still get niter, replace the filter. Another idea is to mix some food grade DE in the hot syrup then filter it, a few others use that method and get nice clear syrup.

[Ghs57]

Has anyone ever seen, heard or read about sugar sand which is fine enough to go through a filter? I have had some batches from this season that are ending up cloudy after numerous times through multiple types of filter set ups. Methods that have always worked perfectly for me in the past are not working this season. I also heard some comments during the season about the interesting sugar sand being produced. "Fine" "white" "different" "weird" were all words I heard from some experienced sugar makers.
Anyone else notice this?

I used a brand new cone filter and 4 pre-filters, bottled hot right after filtering without reheating. Still had cloudiness. Now the niter has mostly settled to the bottom, and the syrup is clear-just don't shake it. In the past my flat filter did a great job with almost no sediment. From that standpoint, it was an odd year, what with the temperatures as warn as they were and uneven sap flow.


Three points, The filter might have been damaged by wringing it. That breaks fibers. Second idea, look up a beer brewers pot, they are SS, available with a draw off valve and thermometer port and they are SS. If you go that route, you could place it in a large shallow pan and hold it up with SS spacers (SS nuts?). Then have water in the lower pan on the burner and heat the syrup indirectly (double boiler fashion). If you still get niter, replace the filter. Another idea is to mix some food grade DE in the hot syrup then filter it, a few others use that method and get nice clear syrup.

Will that mix go through the filter? My only experience with DE (non-food grade) is with a swimming pool filter. And you would mix that in before or after reaching proper density? Id like to try that and see how it works. Either that or find a used press.

[maple flats]

I don't know if he still uses that method, but for many years fellow member, mountainvan, used it, even when he had a few thousand taps. Reportedly it does go thru, you get clear syrup and you don't have the flow issues common with using flat or cone filters. send him a PM to get details.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I use DE in my flat filtering process. There is definite difference in clarity by using it. I use 1/8 to 1/4 cup per gallon but you could probably use a little more. I start with 6 prefilters and pull them off as necessary. I never had a problem with DE in my syrup. Actually, I only wound up with cloudy syrup because I overheated it after filtering. Otherwise this technique works great. Just be sure your filters are in good condition.