Commercial whole home RO

[Bricklayer]

I have been looking for a small scale RO for a while now and came across a commercial unit for sale at a fraction of the new cost. It's way to big for what I need it for but it give me room to grow
Specs
• Reverse Osmosis membrane
• Powder Coated Steel Frame
• Stainless steel multi-stage pump
• Stainless steel membrane vessel
• Product and waste flow meters
• Pre-filter IN-OUT gauges
• Liquid-filled high pressure gauge
• Feed water inlet solenoid valve
• Adjustable Waste/Recycle s.s. needle valves 10” • • 5 micron BB pre-filter
• High-press. brass comp. fittings

It uses 4 x40 membranes and has 3 total plus a pre filter
The pressure pump needs a new seal i was told
System is spec'd in manual to run at 200 psi
Original system is rated for 2000 Gpd but with the addition of 2 extra membranes it is rated for 5000 Gpd.
Way to much RO for me but it will work.

[mellondome]

If it is too big, remove a membrane or 2. You will need to add a supply pump.

[Waynehere]

Well, if you divide out the gpd to gph, 2000= 80 and 5000=200. Just to compare a little more evenly I think. :)

[Bricklayer]

I have a deep well jet pump that I'm going to use for the supply pump. It came with the shallow well attachment when I bought it. Just gotta find it now. i would assume that it being able to pump at 50-60 psi would be sufficient using an 1 1/4" line as a supply line.

[Bricklayer]

I have to go look at it tomorrow. It was installed in a house and it is disconnected. So I won't be able to try it out before I take it. What should I be looking for. I know the high pressure pump needs work it's a Weber Webtrol V10B15S pump.
I'm banking on having to purchase at least 2 membranes. I will probley only run one membrane but it will be nice to have a back up. I'm not going to take a chance with used membranes used on well water. So I will be replacing them for sure. The membrane casing on this unit is plastic also not stainless. So if need be I will upgrade them. Any other things or problems I should be looking for?

[Bricklayer]

Some pictures of the actual unit.
Gonna need a good cleaning. Other then that it looks pretty
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Sorry for the sideways pictures. I have no idea how to flip them. Or make them larger for that matter. My pictures always come out undersized when I post them here. Must be a way to change that setting somewhere

[Bricklayer]

Went and picked it up today. It's a FMV-3 5000 Gpd vertical RO. It's gots lots of features. Pressure guesses for pre filter in/ pre filter out. System operating pressure gauge. Flow gauges for product (permeate) and concentrate ( waste) and a flow meter for Recycle. Needle valves on control panel for recycle and one for waste (concentrate). It's also wired for a float switch. I'd like to just install a regular on/ off switch on that. It is auto flushing also. Not sure how that works when using it for maple sap. I found a brief manual for the unit but it's not very detailed. I'm going to see if I can contact the manufacturer to get one.

[Bricklayer]

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[Bricklayer]

So I'm going to take old membranes out and get rid of them. Don't think they are worth keeping. One is a nano membrane?? Can I run a wash cycle on it with no membranes in it at all. And what should I flush it with. Citric acid is what I've seen in other posts. But with no embraces in it can I use something stronger to clean it out. I'm replacing all the high pressure lines but as long as fitting don't leak I'm keeping them.

[Bricklayer]

Gotta be someone out there that can give me some advice on this machine. How and what to use on the initial cleaning of the unit. Can I take membranes out and run a wash/ rinse at operating pressure? Or keep pressure real low?

[mellondome]

IF you are putting in new membranes, pull the old ones out and flush the system with water. You will want to remove the auto flush function / control. The waste is what you boil.. product is kept for rinsing and cleaning. Without the membranes in the housings you will not get pressure . For cleaning you don't want pressure, just volume.

You will also need a supply pump as these were designed to be installed into a pressurized system. Plumb it in before the prefilter. Remove any carbon or charcoal filters it the system has any.

[Bricklayer]

I am going to use a 3/4 hp shallow well jet pump for the feed pump. Run it at 60 psi It's got a 10" 5 micron filter before the inlet to the RO. I figured I would have to disable the rinse cycle I'm looking for a wiring diagram for this unit. Hard to find. I also need to disable the float control. When you turn unit on it says tank full. Instead of a float switch I just want to put an on/off switch.

Can I run the RO with no membranes and all valves wide open to clean it out? What detergent or acid should I use. I would assume that ph level doesn't matter when not using any membranes? Is it worth replacing all the high pressure lines or should I keep them. They were used for treating softened well water. Still in perfect shape.

[madmapler]

Usually when doing a wash, you're washing the membranes. RO soap breaks down the organics which is mostly what you'll need and acid breaks down the minerals. Some never do an acid wash. You don't need to do a ph (ro soap, acid ) wash without the membranes in it. Just clean it up with whatever works best and make sure you flush it out with plenty of water afterwards. A 3 post like what you have is going to be a 375 gph with sap .Typically 125 gph per membrane I believe depending on sap temp. You don't have recirculation on that but some of the smaller ones made for maple don't. IMO there's no such thing as too much RO. One thing you might want to consider is going with a 20" filter and housing. The 10" plug up too fast especially later in the season. It was probably just fine for regular water.

[Bricklayer]

The unit does have recirc on it but no recirc pump. It is direct feed back to the inlet of the high pressure pump. Controlled by a needle valve. I would assume it would be best to run that needle valve wide open. It's got a recirc flow meter also to see how much is going through. I was planning on running just 1 membrane in it for next year. The room is there to expand. Just gotta replumb the canisters as they are plumbed in parallel right now. I'm going to try flushing it real good with water to get the loose stuff out. Then an acid wash to get the minerals out. The out line from it has a build up of what looks like iron. So I'm sure a good acid wash will help. Now if I could only get a wiring diagram for this so I could install a switch where the float switch is wired in I could start washing it. Can I use warm water and vinegar to wash unit with no membranes? I was going to let is soak for a couple days also with the vinegar then flush it real good.

[madmapler]

Like I said, you can wash it with whatever works best so long as no membranes are involved. That recirc. valve isn't the same as having a pump. It sounds like the same set up as the 3 post small brothers I used to have. I bought a procon pump that I was going to use for recirc. but I bought a bigger machine before I finished setting it up. How many taps are you planning for next year? Do you mind saying what you payed for it?......... I just noticed you're planning 150 taps. That set up with 1 membrane will work good for you. I used my 3 post on 1300 taps and got by with it ok.

[Bricklayer]

I thought I posted how much I paid for it. Guess not. $200. Was a steal. I always planned on building my own RO so my thought were even if all that was good was the hp pump and the cannisters and gauges then I was way ahead of the game. I think I did pretty well. Guy even gave me 2 boxes of filters for the pre filter.
I'm going to leave the recirc the way it is for now. See how it works maybe add a pump in the future
I'm not sure how the whole flush cycle works on this unit. There is no drain on the unit or other feed tube. And it says the pressure drops during the flush. So my guess is that it flushes it at low pressure using permeate and dumping that into the waste ( concentrate ) tank. Basically rinsing the system. Not so bad really if it's bringing sugar with it. From What I have heard people do this with most RO's after being done with them for the day. Just as long as it doesn't dump 50 gallons of 1% into my concentrate tank. I can't get a wiring diagram to find out how to disable the flush. im sure an electronics guy could figure it out. But that I am not.
With the one membrane I will be running what should I be expecting for concentration? My sap is pretty high% usually in te 2.5 -3 % range. Sometimes higher. Not sure what membrane I will be getting yet. The system says not to run it higher then 200. I'm sure I could run it at 225 psi no problem.
The one thing that is confusing me is the hp pump that came installed on this unit. It a vertical mounted booster pump.
Rated for 1hp at 10 gpm All I could find for specs on this pump were the curve graphs. Mine clocks in at 4 gpm at 180 psi. Discharge. That seems kind of low to me. That's only 240 gph at 180 psi.
Is that enough for 3 membranes if I upgrade eventually? I'm sure it's fine for the 1
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[Bricklayer]

I am going to replace all the tubing on this unit. I plan to use 2 membranes plumbed in series. Unit currently has 3 membranes plumbed in parallel. I noticed that most of the tubing has been bushed down in size. The flow gauges are 3/4 inlets and outlets. And 3/8 tubing is used. My cannisters have 1/2" inlets so I will replace that with 1/2". My hp pump has a 1" outlet so I might even go 3/4 tubing from the pump the the cannister and reduce it right at the port. My outlets for concentrate and permeate are bushed down also. Concentrate s 1/4" and permeate is 3/8. I'm going to go 1/2" on both. Will changing the tubing sizes to larger ID tubing have a negative effect on the performance? 14176
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[madmapler]

Rated for 1hp at 10 gpm All I could find for specs on this pump were the curve graphs. Mine clocks in at 4 gpm at 180 psi. Discharge. That seems kind of low to me. That's only 240 gph at 180 psi.
Is that enough for 3 membranes if I upgrade eventually? I'm sure it's fine for the 1 membrane.
14160 I think you'd be ok with 2 membranes. Membranes require different flow rates. I'd consider xle membranes. XLE stands for extra low energy and they run better at lower pressures. Check out Atlanticro or American RO.They have good prices on xle's. My 3 post only got to 250 psi. I ran it usually around 200 to 225 if I remember correctly. I used XLE's. I don't ever squeeze the concentrate needle too much. I pay more attn. to the amount of permeate being removed. There are guys on here that know a lot more than I do about these things though. Another thing to remember is your feed pump is going to increase your pressure some as well. Any pics. of the pump?

[Bricklayer]

Xle is what I was looking at getting. Have heard good things about them. I posted earlier about changing the tubing sizes to bigger tubing. What's your take on that?

Picture of pump
14179

[madmapler]

[QUOTE=Bricklayer;307909]Xle is what I was looking at getting. Have heard good things about them. I posted earlier about changing the tubing sizes to bigger tubing. What's your take on that?

Mine had the same tubing. The fittings were leaking so we did change it for larger. I think if they're building them that way then it's probably sufficient but as I said, if you're going through it anyway then..... It looks like you got a great deal for the price.

[Bricklayer]

Great deal for sure. The pump alone is worth $2000. I priced a pump seal and its $25.00. Installed $40.00. Not to bad
Is there anything I need to get to adapt to be able to use the xle 4040 membranes. I've heard people talk about needing an adaptor to use them. ?
is there a diagram of 2 canisters plumbed in series out there. I've been trying to figure it out. The sap feed line goes in the inlet port on the first. Permeate out bottom middle and concentrate out the outside outlet port. Then that concentrate line goes to the in port of the next membrane. Do the 2 permeate lines from both membranes just get teed together then sent to the permeate tank? And do I hook my recirc tube up to the out line of the second membrane? I'd draw a pic but I've been having a hard time posting good pics on this site. They come out pretty small

[bowhunter]

It sounds like you have the right idea. The sap from the booster pump connects to the first membrane inlet. Permeate connections are usually in the middle of the end caps and can be from either end. The concentrate out of the first membrane which should be the other side outlet on the housing on the opposite end of the feed connects to the inlet of the second membrane. The permeate outlets connect together with a tee and out through the permeate flow meter. The recirculation and net concentrate come from the second membrane outlet.

[Bricklayer]

Got it.
Is there a special type of high pressure fitting that is used on the RO's. I've read of people using John guest fittings. Never seen a John guest fitting in Canada. But we have shark bites. I would like to keep it brass like the rest of the unit. Are they special brass fittings? Are they called something other then a compression fitting?

[bowhunter]

I use John Guest fittings on 3/8 inch plastic tubing and they work ok. I am switching most of my high pressure connections to brass compression fittings with high pressure plastic tubing. You have to use a brass sleeve inside the plastic tubing and a plastic compression ring around the outside of the tubing and inside the compression nut. It's the same kind of fittings you use to connect the water supply to an ice maker on a refrigerator. They seem to be pretty robust and are able to take more jarring than the John Quest fittings. The Shark fittings should work also.

[Bricklayer]

What are the brass fittings with the sleeve called?

[psparr]

What are the brass fittings with the sleeve called?

Compression fittings.

[Bricklayer]

I know they are compression fittings. But the only ones I can find for high pressure over 200 psi are hydraulic fittings. They contain lead. And are not "food grade" by any means. I think what I'm gonna do is go to the plumbing supply store and bring the old fitting with me and let them figure it out. A lot of the fittings on this unit are the white nylon fittings.

[bowhunter]

Here's a link to a company here in the States that sells a lot of tubing and fittings including John Guest fittings. This might help.https://www.freshwatersystems.com/

[Bricklayer]

Thanks.
One more question. For the xle 4040 membrane will I need adapters? I know it's been talked about lots on here.

[bowhunter]

I don't know anything about the XLE adapter. Why don't you call someone like Atlantic RO. I believe they sell them.

[Bricklayer]

Going to call them this morning.

I ordered stainless flexible lines from freshwatersystems.com. For all the high pressure lines.3/4" female to 1/2" male from the hp pump to the first membrane then 1/2" male to 1/2" male from membrane to membrane. Going to use the Parker fittings for the low pressure fittings. They are rated to 300 psi. Also ordered some different colour tubing for the concentrate permeate lines to be able to follow it. Blue for permeate, red for concentrate, black for recirc. I ordered 3/4" tubing for the recirc. It was bushed down to 1/2" so more recirc flow the better I assume. Also ordered a tds meter. It will do two lines. Concentrate and permeate. They had one that tests conductivity also. Not sure if that's something needed. I noticed the larger commercial water RO's have conductivity meters on them. Never seen it on a maple one.

I noticed on the membranes that came out of this unit that both ends have male tubes in the membrane ends and that one end has an oring seal on it and the other dosnt. Do I need to keep those tubes out of the membrane or are they garbage? Does a new oring seal come with the new membranes? And I forget how they came out. Does the end with te oring go to inlet side or outlet side. Should of payed attention.
http://http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u495/bottenhof/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/327B1050-5FA0-451C-AE41-67A8AE67475E_zpsylexj8ka.jpg (http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/bottenhof/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/327B1050-5FA0-451C-AE41-67A8AE67475E_zpsylexj8ka.jpg.html)

[maple flats]

My Ray Gingerich RO uses a needle valve to recirculate. In use you will find that the recirculation won't likely be full open or you will get little or no permeate. The way I run mine, is that I start with the unit running at or near max. pressure which is 275-280 for mine, for yours likely 175-180 psi. Then I open the recirc. needle valve about 1/4 turn or less at a time. The high pressure gauge drops, I then turn up the pressure by closing the main flow restriction valve which gives you the pressure to push the permeate thru the membrane. With that back at my pressure, I again open the recirc. needle a little more and I repeat. I do this until I get to the concentrate flow I want to match my evaporator. Then in use I periodically need to tweak the valves because in use the pressure very gradually climbs. I try to adjust to stay at the desired concentrate flow rate by playing the main pressure valve against the recirc. needle valve. It is quite simple after you have used it for only a very few hours.
What you really want is the right concentrate flow, this will match the evaporation while giving the highest sugar % concentrate.
However, when I run the RO unattended, I recirculate into the source tank and I run at a lower pressure. For that I usually use 225-240 PSI and I run the recirculation needle valve full closed. Then I can run for an hour or 2 while I collect more sap or whatever. I have safety shut offs, if my high pressure hits 300 the RO shuts off, and since when I'm gone I only recirculate into the sap tank I'm pulling from, I will always hit high pressure limit before I run out of sap. If my head tank was larger (I used to use a 415 gal, then a 200 gal and now a 150 gal) I could run from the sap tank thru the RO and put it in the head tank. Then A low pressure shut off would kick in and shut down if I run out of sap, but I don't have a dependable low pressure shut off so I don't go that route.

[Bricklayer]

I found the manual for this unit. It's pretty brief but it says almost exactly what you just said Maple Flats. My unit does have a needle valve for recirc. I do have a low pressure switch on it but no high pressure switch. ive been looking for one but want to get a high quality one. Preferably not cheap eBay crap. I'm still trying to figure out the wiring diagram that's in the manual. The unit will not run without the float switch activated. It's a 3 wire lead to the float. I jumped the purple and red wires and the unit turned on. But what is the yellow wire for? It not a ground wire I checked. Reading wire schematics is like Chinese to me so maybe someone here can help me out.
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[madmapler]

Thanks.
One more question. For the xle 4040 membrane will I need adapters? I know it's been talked about lots on here.

I don't think you'll need adaptors for your vessels. It's something about vessels made for maple that need adaptors. Check with Atlantic or American.

[Bricklayer]

Do I need to save the tubes from the membrane or are they part of it?

[Cedar Eater]

I'm still trying to figure out the wiring diagram that's in the manual. The unit will not run without the float switch activated. It's a 3 wire lead to the float. I jumped the purple and red wires and the unit turned on. But what is the yellow wire for? It not a ground wire I checked.

By jumping the purple to the red, you bypassed two float switches, the low level (FSL) and high level (FSH) float switches. I have no idea what this implies about safe operation of the system, but it generally isn't good to pretend that something is full enough when it isn't or that it is not too full when it is.

But something looks backwards in that wiring diagram. The way the diagram is drawn, you have to have the tank full before you can power up Control Relay #1 which then powers up much more, but then as soon as the tank is less than full everything shuts off. Does that make sense for how this is supposed to run?

[Bricklayer]

I'm not going to be using the float switches. I was going to put a switch between the purple and red wires to turn te unit on. Without those wires crossed it shows tank full. I have no idea what the yellow wire does. Its got a double connector coming off it. I tried jumping it to the red and purple wires and nothing.

[maple75]

By jumping the purple to the red, you bypassed two float switches, the low level (FSL) and high level (FSH) float switches. I have no idea what this implies about safe operation of the system, but it generally isn't good to pretend that something is full enough when it isn't or that it is not too full when it is.

But something looks backwards in that wiring diagram. The way the diagram is drawn, you have to have the tank full before you can power up Control Relay #1 which then powers up much more, but then as soon as the tank is less than full everything shuts off. Does that make sense for how this is supposed to run?

If I am reading it correctly
Once the FSH level is reached the CR1 gets power and stays in because of CR1-1 until the lower level float opens.
If you want to eliminate the floats then I think you need to jumper the FSH and replace FSL with a switch.

[Bricklayer]

If I am reading it correctly
Once the FSH level is reached the CR1 gets power and stays in because of CR1-1 until the lower level float opens.
If you want to eliminate the floats then I think you need to jumper the FSH and replace FSL with a switch.

The evidence left by the previous owner had the yellow wire split into 2. So if I connected the purple red and yellow wires together and then had a switch between purple and yellow? Does that make sense?

[maple75]

that's what I would try, just make sure you have the right yellow wires.

[Bricklayer]

There is only one yellow wire coming out the float switch lead conduit on top of the machine. They all go to the 24 VAC relay switch. The relay switch on top is where the float wires go to.

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[Cedar Eater]

If I am reading it correctly
Once the FSH level is reached the CR1 gets power and stays in because of CR1-1 until the lower level float opens.
If you want to eliminate the floats then I think you need to jumper the FSH and replace FSL with a switch.

The CR1 contact only bypasses the FSL. That's what's weird. I don't know what the function of the pump is. If you're filling the tank, you want to shut the pump off when you reach full. If that's the case, the FSH as shown is bass ackwards. It uses the normally open symbol, when it should be using the normally closed symbol, but if it used the normally closed symbol, the tank full light would be on when the tank wasn't full. If you're draining the tank, you want to shut the pump off when the tank is empty, the CR1 contact prevents that by bypassing the FSL switch. The diagram is wrong either way.

[Cedar Eater]

Moving the yellow wire that comes from the 3 Amp fuse holder straight to the red wire at the relay where it comes from the float switches will bypass the float switches. Putting your switch between that fuse holder and the red side of the relay coil will bypass the float switches with a manual switch.

[Bricklayer]

Ok. What yellow wire? The top one on the fuse or the bottom one

[Cedar Eater]

Ok. What yellow wire? The top one on the fuse or the bottom one

Pull the yellow wire that goes between the fuse and the relay at the relay end. Pull the red wire that goes between the relay and the float switch at the float switch end. Connect that yellow wire and that red wire to the manual switch. That bypasses the float switches.

[Bricklayer]

I will try that tomorrow. I would like to disable the flush timer also. But that can be the next mission. One at a time

[Cedar Eater]

I will try that tomorrow. I would like to disable the flush timer also. But that can be the next mission. One at a time

Disabling the flush timer looks easy. I'm assuming you mean that you want to make the flush a manual operation. Just put a switch for the two black wires in place of the flush timer connections.

[Bricklayer]

I'm still trying to figure out how the flush plumbing works. It's got a solonoid valve that closes or opens one or the other. That drops the pressure and moves the concentrate through the system at low pressure. Not something I want to have happen when I'm running sap through it. Would be good feature when giving the RO a rinse when done though.

[Bricklayer]

[QUOTE=Bricklayer;308170]Going to call them this morning.

I ordered stainless flexible lines from freshwatersystems.com. For all the high pressure lines.3/4" female to 1/2" male from the hp pump to the first membrane then 1/2" male to 1/2" male from membrane to membrane. Going to use the Parker fittings for the low pressure fittings. They are rated to 300 psi. Also ordered some different colour tubing for the concentrate permeate lines to be able to follow it. Blue for permeate, red for concentrate, black for recirc. I ordered 3/4" tubing for the recirc. It was bushed down to 1/2" so more recirc flow the better I assume. Also ordered a tds meter. It will do two lines. Concentrate and permeate. They had one that tests conductivity also. Not sure if that's something needed. I noticed the larger commercial water RO's have conductivity meters on them. Never seen it on a maple one.

I noticed on the membranes that came out of this unit that both ends have male tubes in the membrane ends and that one end has an oring seal on it and the other dosnt. Do I need to keep those tubes out of the membrane or are they garbage? Does a new oring seal come with the new membranes? And I forget how they came out. Does the end with te oring go to inlet side or outlet side. Should of payed attention.
http://http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u495/bottenhof/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/327B1050-5FA0-451C-AE41-67A8AE67475E_zpsylexj8ka.jpg (http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/bottenhof/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/327B1050-5FA0-451C-AE41-67A8AE67475E_zpsylexj8ka.jpg.html)[/QUOTE

cant remember what way these membranes go back in. One end has an oring and the other does not. I'm assuming the oring side goes to the discharge end and the one without goes to the inlet side?

[Bricklayer]

This unit has a ton of extra features on it that really aren't needed for maple operation. Its got a flush sequence that is on a timer, a solonoid valve for startup that closes when system shuts down and float controls, am I better off just having an on off switch, a low pressure cut off and a high pressure cut off. Keep it simple. Last thing I need is for one of these componenents to break down during maple season.