How many taps, how big evaporator and no RO.

[KReinisch]

I was just wondering how many of you guys out there have 500+ taps and don't run and RO. I really want to stay away from that but I want to get bigger. I currently run just over 500 taps and have a 30 X 8 evaporator. We boil our tails off but our syrup tastes great. What is everyone's opinion on this.

[motowbrowne]

I think Danny (dschulz on here) runs between 1500-2500 depending on the year and cooks on shares for other folks too. He runs a 4x14 intense-o-fire.

I'll have 350-400 on vacuum next year and 50-75 buckets. I told my wife I'd cook it all on our 2x10 (similar to your 30x8), but that she wouldn't see me very much during the season. We'll have a 15 month old by next season, so she decided we'd better get a bigger rig. We found a used 4x14. I'm really looking forward to getting more cooking done in less time.

I don't think there's anything wrong with ROs, but it would be a huge project for us to add one. We don't even have power at the cook shack, much less an insulated room. Plus, cutting wood is my favorite sport!

[KReinisch]

I know what you mean about spending time boiling. We have boiled over 120 hours this year. We have made 125+ gallons of syrup. I also like splitting wood too.

[mapleguy]

At one time I had 2000 taps boiled on a 3x10. With seasoned wood usually boiled around 120 gal. per hour. Next year will have 500 buckets, I've found relatively speaking I gain just as much but with less labor and time involved.

[adk1]

I dont have 500 taps but boil on a 2x6. 40 GPH is about max. Boiling just 300 gallons of sap takes me over 9 hours. and if its still running in 12+ hours. Even my size operation will benefit from an RO, which I intend to get

[WestfordSugarworks]

Our neighbor has 600 on gravity with an old 2x6 wood fired and can be boiling literally all day. He likes it though. Sometimes he gets too much sap and we pick up a tank from him.

[adk1]

yeah, I do not mind the boiling but when its a Wednesday and you fire up at 6PM (earliest I am able to) and you dont hit the pillow till 3:30am and are back up at 6am it tends to lose its fun....

[Atgreene]

We've run a 2x6 for years, currently around 750 taps, just added an ro last year. All nighters and 10 cord of wood are a thing of the past. Your ro could be anywhere, truck the sap to it and haul concentrate back.

[boneheadben]

I have 1,750 taps on vac and boil on a 4x14 homebuilt firebox 10ft flue pan 2 2x2 cross flows, copper preheater in hood, i average on good dry wood 180 gallons per hour, 200 per hour when using pallets. ive made 300 gallons this year on 1.2% sap.

[Sugarmaker]

We have 600+ taps, have others bring in a little sap too. We have boiled up to 1000 taps (one year only) some long days on the old 3 x 10 King, currently boiling at about 120 to 140 GPH. We made 180 gallons of syrup this year with no RO. We are near the upper limit on number of taps we can handle with out killing me.
An Ro would work on some days but there are other days when I would not really need it.
How big is your rig? You need to balance the number of taps with expected sap qty., with how much time you have to gather and then boil.
Good luck.
Regards,
Chris

[KReinisch]

We have a 30x8 raised flue and we were averaging somewhere around 60 gallons an hour. We processed over 7000 gallons of sap from 550 taps. We made roughly 125 gallons of syrup. My sugar content as well was anywhere from 1.2 to 2%. Actually only had one batch of sap make it over 2%.

[SeanD]

I dont have 500 taps but boil on a 2x6. 40 GPH is about max. Boiling just 300 gallons of sap takes me over 9 hours. and if its still running in 12+ hours. Even my size operation will benefit from an RO, which I intend to get

Ditto to that.

[nymapleguy607]

This year I ran about 225 taps on my 2x6 with a steam away and intense fire arch. Best evaporation rate is 72gph. I am running high vac and the best run we had was 500 gallons in one night. That was a 7 hour boil starting at 4:30 and ending at 11:30 then getting up to go to work the next day at 5:30. This next year the tap count is going to double and I know the 2x6 wont keep up so an RO will be going in. The thing to think about with an RO is you don't need to be around for it to run, you can haul sap or fix leaks or even take a nap. You will just need to make sure you can keep up with the amount of syrup coming off per hour.

[ForFun]

I've heard that using an RO, will change the taste/flavor of the syrup. Is there any truth to this??

[Hannah]

I was just wondering how many of you guys out there have 500+ taps and don't run and RO. I really want to stay away from that but I want to get bigger. I currently run just over 500 taps and have a 30 X 8 evaporator. We boil our tails off but our syrup tastes great. What is everyone's opinion on this.

What is the reason you do not want to go to the RO system? I would love to have the problems you have ;)

[abbott]

Too many variables. Better question is how much sap, how fast can you boil. You should be able to get an idea of how much sap your operation can produce for a given # of taps. Then figure out how many hours of boiling you want to do on an average year. That will tell you how fast your evaporator needs to go.

I made 250 gallons of syrup my last year on a 30"x8'. But I could rarely top 40 gph boil rate with reasonably dry hardwood split small. I was 26 and didn't have kids yet. Five yrs and two boys later I've about maxed out what I want to do on my 40"x10' boiling at 85 gph. I have 860 taps and expect to process 15,000 gallons of sap on an average year. All on vacuum coming into the sap house, but no electricity and its a half mile hike to the sap house. This year I'm over 16,000 gallons of sap and not done yet. I've used 17 cord of hardwood all split with a maul. I keep an axe handy while boiling to split it smaller as I go.

My next step will be to get a more efficient boil by buying or building a better arch with blowers, then adding a steamaway. I don't know how far down the road that is, but I could envision making 500-600 gallons of syrup a year on 1300-1500 taps. But no more firewood then I use now. At that point I'd be powering everything with a generator.

I'd invite you to come visit, but it would be a long drive.

[motowbrowne]

Too many variables. Better question is how much sap, how fast can you boil. You should be able to get an idea of how much sap your operation can produce for a given # of taps. Then figure out how many hours of boiling you want to do on an average year. That will tell you how fast your evaporator needs to go.

I made 250 gallons of syrup my last year on a 30"x8'. But I could rarely top 40 gph boil rate with reasonably dry hardwood split small. I was 26 and didn't have kids yet. Five yrs and two boys later I've about maxed out what I want to do on my 40"x10' boiling at 85 gph. I have 860 taps and expect to process 15,000 gallons of sap on an average year. All on vacuum coming into the sap house, but no electricity and its a half mile hike to the sap house. This year I'm over 16,000 gallons of sap and not done yet. I've used 17 cord of hardwood all split with a maul. I keep an axe handy while boiling to split it smaller as I go.

My next step will be to get a more efficient boil by buying or building a better arch with blowers, then adding a steamaway. I don't know how far down the road that is, but I could envision making 500-600 gallons of syrup a year on 1300-1500 taps. But no more firewood then I use now. At that point I'd be powering everything with a generator.

I'd invite you to come visit, but it would be a long drive.

Steven, your operation sounds very impressive!! I aspire to someday be that size someday also. I split all my wood by hand also, but so far the most I've burned in a year is 8 cords. Next year I'm getting a bigger rig to allow me to deal with the extra sap from adding vacuum and allow me to spend more time with my new daughter.I figure I'll be burning 8-10 every year for syrup from now on. I'm glad to hear there's someone else out there splitting everything they use to cook by hand.

If you spilt that much wood, I would say that you need to try a Fiskars X27 if you haven't already. I split about 10 cords every year for the sugar bush and the house. I have a Gransfors Bruks splitting maul also, which is a great tool, but the Fiskars is almost as good and less than 1/3 the price. I figure I've got $250 into 2 great mauls, which is pretty good compared to a power splitter. I love doing it by hand, and I'm pretty fast too.

Too bad we don't live a little closer. It'd be fun to split some wood sometime.

[KReinisch]

I cant say I split all my wood by hand but at least 50% of the 8 cord I split by hand. One problem we ran into this year was being unprepaired with wood supply. At one point someone would told me that 1 cord would get you around 25 gallons of syrup. Boy was that wrong on my end. We burnt through 4 cord in less that 2 weeks. lol

[WestfordSugarworks]

I've heard that using an RO, will change the taste/flavor of the syrup. Is there any truth to this??


According to a recent study, there is no truth to this. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Effects%20of%20RO%20on%20syrup%20-%20van%20den%20Berg%202015.pdf However, people will tell you that there is a definite taste difference. Also, people will say that wood fired vs oil fired has a taste difference. In my mind it's important to use the best, most recent scientific studies and resources to make educated opinions. As to the wood vs. oil, perhaps there is validity but it would not be due to fuel source, rather boiling time or perhaps intensity of boil, I don't know.

What I think is that i've rarely ever tasted bad syrup and almost every sugarmaker I know is a very hard worker who strives for quality. Whether you have 100 taps or 100,000, props to you for carrying on the sugaring tradition!

Another thing about ROs, like Jeff said, having an RO means less time in the sugarhouse, allowing you to check for leaks or even nap. I've always been told that you don't make any money in the sugarhouse, and I agree. Especially if you have vacuum, In my mind it is best to spend as little time as possible boiling. You make your money in the woods and if a lack of RO is your limiting factor to get more sap and a higher yield, perhaps an RO would be a good investment.

[GeneralStark]

Ditto what Westford has said. You make the money in the woods. My first year with my own woods and equipment I boiled from 550 taps (no ro) and spent not nearly enough time in the woods and was basically strapped to the evaporator for 8+ hours at a time sometimes longer. Now that I have an ro I spend much more time in the woods chasing leaks, fixing sags, and generally enjoying the beautiful outdoors. I also use much less wood and while I do enjoy splitting wood (all by hand with a Fiskars x27 that thing is awesome!!) now I am ahead on wood and can chip away at it at my leisure.

If you are interested in high yields using vacuum, an ro is likely a key tool. When the sugar content drops to 1% or below you can easily make that syrup and at a time in the season when you are likely tired, you can easily keep going. ALso, you put a lot less wear and tear on your rig and your body. I had one run this year that would have required boiling for almost 24 hours to keep up with what I had stored and what was coming in. Instead I boiled for four and made 40 gal. of great syrup.

The flavor thing is really a non-issue. Sure an ro can affect syrup flavor if not used correctly but besides that it is pretty well proven that in most cases it is a non-issue. That said, I do suspect the nature of maple syrup flavor has changed now that people have more time to clean their rigs more frequently and can produce syrup much more quickly. If you like burnt tasting syrup with a wood smoke after taste then yes an ro may change that....

[Tweegs]

This was our first year with the RO. I’ll never go back.
In the early part of the season it’s not unusual for us to fill our 500 gallon main tank.
On our 2x6 it would normally take us 14 hours to get through and tack on an hour for start-up and another for shutdown/clean-up, it’s a 16 hour day and a full cord of wood, plus.

Our RO will concentrate the sap down to 125 gallons in about 5 hours at 1 GPM permeate. It can run unattended, for the most part, leaving us time to tend to other business. Once concentrated, we can plow through that 125 gallons, making just as much syrup, in under 5 hours, including start-up/shutdown. We’ll burn just a little over half a face cord of wood, or about 30% of what we otherwise would.




I've heard that using an RO, will change the taste/flavor of the syrup. Is there any truth to this??

Dr. Tim and his crew published a paper which was featured in a relatively recent edition of Maple Digest.
The experiment focused on the effect an RO had on flavor/grade.
The short version is that the RO actually darkened the syrup slightly when concentrated to 8% and test subjects could not discern any difference in flavor (triangle study, if memory serves).

[abbott]

I cant say I split all my wood by hand but at least 50% of the 8 cord I split by hand. One problem we ran into this year was being unprepaired with wood supply. At one point someone would told me that 1 cord would get you around 25 gallons of syrup. Boy was that wrong on my end. We burnt through 4 cord in less that 2 weeks. lol

I get about 23 gallons per cord on average... using all hardwood and assuming a 40:1 ratio of sap to syrup. Sounds like your sap has been pretty thin, though, so I'm guessing you've done more like 15 gallons of syrup on a cord of wood?

Interesting how your thread turned into people trying to convince you to go get an RO. I would say to keep an open mind... if your operation has to make money, then you may need an RO to accomplish that, considering how thin your sap seems to be.

The way I see it right now, having an RO down at my sap house, a half mile from electricity, water, etc. doesn't make a ton of sense. And besides, I just don't want to do it that way! But if it becomes a necessity in order to keep this business going, I'd probably do it.

[KReinisch]

If I have do go to an RO which I don't think I will. I will only concentrate to 4-6%. I am not that experienced with them but I hear and read all of these guys that concentrate to 12-18%. My opinion is that takes the fun out of it. I am not in this to make lots of money... it would be nice to make enough to take the family on a vacation over the summer and that's it. I enjoy boiling and I love the taste of the syrup that's been cooked for hours and hours... lol

[abbott]

If I have do go to an RO which I don't think I will. I will only concentrate to 4-6%. I am not that experienced with them but I hear and read all of these guys that concentrate to 12-18%. My opinion is that takes the fun out of it. I am not in this to make lots of money... it would be nice to make enough to take the family on a vacation over the summer and that's it. I enjoy boiling and I love the taste of the syrup that's been cooked for hours and hours... lol

I would think it would be hard to start using RO and not want to go to higher concentrate levels. I've had the same thoughts myself... just get an undersized RO that can sweeten up the sap a bit, especially late in the year. While syrup is not my entire income, I do consider it my job, so I am in it to make money. I also grow vegetables for market (good thing I've got a wife to help with the seedlings/planting the hoophouse right about now.) But obviously I can handle more taps than I could if I had a day job. There are certainly times when I work so hard that the fun is gone, but I really enjoy selling products that I'm proud to have made.

[lakeview maple]

I run around 650 taps , 150 of them on 3/16th ,135 on a guzzler pump and the rest on gravity. I also buy sap form 2 different people .They have about 110 taps apiece. I boil on a 3 x10 Dominion & Grimm with auf . I average about 110 gph with good wood . I only had two days this season where I had more than I could handle. Most days I would start around 8am ,I generally takes about 45 minutes for me to get the sugarhouse unthawed during the season and I would boil until 4pm , that's cool down starting around 330pm. about 6 hours a day and I kept up fine ,our sugar was running low the whole season. Best day I had was 1.8% most days were 1.5% the low was 1.2% . So bottom line is on approximately 870 taps I do pretty well keeping up with my 3x10 without an RO. Nothing against them ,just at this point in my sugarhouse 1) I don't have the power to run one ,2) I don't have a heated room and 3) I don't mind the boiling time, I get a lot of people who stop by ,have a cup of coffee and help haul firewood and what ever else needs getting done. Its a personal choice ,the firewood isn't an issue as its free except my time to cut and split so for me no RO as of yet maybe when I add another 500 on 3/16th . I hope this helps ,Allen

[Starks sugarbush]

We tap 3000 taps on gravity and cook on 6x16. Cook 300 gal an hour usually 8 to 10 hrs a day on good runs

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[log cabin luke]

I sell all my syrup retail going to farmers markets and other venues. I have literally sampled my maple syrup to many thousands of people. Every place I go it is always the same thing. I sell lots of dark syrup and almost no light syrup. The longer the sap boils the better it tastes. I run 2350 taps on vacuum and boil on a 6x16 with homemade arch. I usually boil between 12-15 hours a day. I would be able to boil it down faster if I did not have to go and pick up 3 loads of sap a day and leave the evaporator unattended. If it gets really crazy I call up a guy and he buys sap from me. I only try to do that if I get to dizzy and can't see straight for over a few days. I burn about 35 cords of hemlock slabs for the season. I am planning on making a new rig this coming season specifically designed to make dark syrup. I think I will also get my boiling days down to 10 hours. I have personally sampled maple syrup from about 8 different maple producers all using RO's concentrating from between 6 to 18 percent. the 18 percent syrup was the only syrup that I almost spit out. The other syrup concentrated to around the 10 % range was OK but not good enough for me ever to buy an RO even when the state programs here in Mass will pay for over 50% of the thing.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I started out making syrup with about 20 taps and a 2x3 pan on cinderblocks in back yard 25+ years ago. Syrup quality has improved obviously over the years compared when I was a young teenager then. Point being, my syrup tastes no different at 12% on the same evaporator than it did boiling raw sap before the RO few years ago. Processed almost 4,700 gallon in 2 days this year boiling 4 times for about 2 hours each boil with one of the boils being about 2.5 hours on a 2x8 evaporator. Boiled 17,000+ gallons of sap with about 1.5 cords of wood. To each his own and I am glad there are people that do it both ways but as I get older I work smarter not harder and syrup taste and quality doesn't decrease. This allows me much more time to spend in the woods chasing leaks and making a lot more syrup. In those 2 days I would have had to dumped a lot of the 4,700 gallon without an RO.

PS One of the worst years on record for entire state of WV.

[GeneralStark]

A rig designed specifically for making dark syrup...that is a new one.

[log cabin luke]

It is going to be an interesting set up for sure. I only know of one other person who made a similar rig to make darker syrup. I am some what copying his and then adding a few of my own ideas. I know that it is far from the norm but I sell out of all my dark syrup so fast that I need more. Towards the end of the year I am left with many drums of light syrup and all the dark is sold out or close to it. Hence the need to make more dark syrup and less light syrup. My friend says that I am undoing the last few hundred years of evaporation technology, I think I am just trying to sell more syrup easily.

[motowbrowne]

It is going to be an interesting set up for sure. I only know of one other person who made a similar rig to make darker syrup. I am some what copying his and then adding a few of my own ideas. I know that it is far from the norm but I sell out of all my dark syrup so fast that I need more. Towards the end of the year I am left with many drums of light syrup and all the dark is sold out or close to it. Hence the need to make more dark syrup and less light syrup. My friend says that I am undoing the last few hundred years of evaporation technology, I think I am just trying to sell more syrup easily.

I try to make dark syrup also. I have zero market for the light stuff. The reverse flow rig I've been running for five seasons allows me to control which side of the flue pan I'm feeding into. I remove the control box altogether so the flue pan just mixes instead of flowing forwards. Seems to help. One good thing about light syrup is that it is pretty easy to make it disappear by blending it with the late season stuff. I can make enough dark syrup so that I can sneak the light batches in and no one is the wiser.

[abbott]

It is going to be an interesting set up for sure. I only know of one other person who made a similar rig to make darker syrup. I am some what copying his and then adding a few of my own ideas. I know that it is far from the norm but I sell out of all my dark syrup so fast that I need more. Towards the end of the year I am left with many drums of light syrup and all the dark is sold out or close to it. Hence the need to make more dark syrup and less light syrup. My friend says that I am undoing the last few hundred years of evaporation technology, I think I am just trying to sell more syrup easily.

Why not just leave your sap sitting in a tank for a few days before you boil it? Maybe a black tank in the sun? And definitely don't wash your tank or evaporator during the season, until near the end when the syrup is getting really really dark. Never filter your sap (I don't).

The ups and downs of this season's temperatures proved to me that the temperature of the sap as it comes to the saphouse and sits in the tank is the single biggest factor affecting the color of the syrup. I generally boil it off quite promptly, but if I wanted to make darker syrup I would strongly consider getting a extra tank so I could let the bacteria grow for a while before I boiled the sap.

[log cabin luke]

Everything you mentioned about making syrup darker is 100% true. I know because I already do all of them. When I boil my sap I am usually testing the limits of how long it will last before spoilage. This season I went as long as 6 days with temps in the upper 50's before I boiled it. Thats when I started making the good stuff. The tricky part is the early season sap when it is still relatively cold and the sap does not degrade as easily and all the equipment is clean, I never wash out my pan until the season is over. It is also hard with timing because I get more sap on occasion than I can handle and I could be caught off guard with the weather and it could actually spoil. The process of boiling I am designing is going to be an extra long drawn out process mainly aimed at boiling darker syrup earlier in the season.
the only good thing about the light syrup is that like motobrowne says I can add it to off flavor dark syrup to get something I can sell. So it is good to have a few drums of it around.

Abbott, how was the season up in Sumner this year. I use to have a sugar house in Byron Me. on about 1200 gravity taps on the east branch of the swift river. It was alot of fun but the trees were not good producers. I am glad that I did it for those 3 seasons though. Snowmobile access only.

[abbott]

Abbott, how was the season up in Sumner this year. I use to have a sugar house in Byron Me. on about 1200 gravity taps on the east branch of the swift river. It was alot of fun but the trees were not good producers. I am glad that I did it for those 3 seasons though. Snowmobile access only.

Best season I have had in my eight seasons of sapping. Just over a half gallon of syrup per tap on vacuum 435g on 860 taps. I went to Mountain Maple on East B Hill up by Andover after my season ended... they went for a few days more up there, but done now. 500 gallons of syrup on somewhere over 2000 taps gravity... they also though it may have been their best year to date.

I use a lot of Amber syrup (80 gallons?) to make sugar for one business customer, otherwise I'd be in the same boat needing more dark. I do have customers request light syrup, but not many.

[Michael Greer]

Log Cabin Luke, My customers all want the dark stuff except one who requested light syrup. That said, I would never intentionally stall the process to get a darker product because that time allows microbes to steal your sugar. You'll end up with more labor and fuel, and less finished product to show for it. In my experience, customers will buy whatever you have to offer...no one goes away empty handed.

[Clinkis]

Log Cabin Luke, My customers all want the dark stuff except one who requested light syrup. That said, I would never intentionally stall the process to get a darker product because that time allows microbes to steal your sugar. You'll end up with more labor and fuel, and less finished product to show for it. In my experience, customers will buy whatever you have to offer...no one goes away empty handed.

Although microbes do steal sugar, sap will spoil before you notice any measurable amount of loss because of it.

If there was an easy way to do it, I'd sure love to produce more dark syrup. I'd definitely sell more if I did. I have had several customers go elsewhere because all I have left is light and medium and they want dark.

[GeneralStark]

If you want to make more dark syrup I would suggest reading this article and getting a glucometer.

http://www.centreacer.qc.ca/uploaded/Publications/109_En.pdf

Perhaps you just need a heated tank room and more tanks to let the sap spoil in before boiling instead of a special evaporator.

Or you could get a copy of the Cornell Confections Book (Free) and learn how to make maple confections with the light syrup you make. Then you may realize that it is pure gold. :)

[BreezyHill]

I have seen the light to dark cycle over the years. en the economy gets rough people want more for their $$$. Dark syrup has more flavor and they use less.

We sold 5 kegs bulk that was light. We have gotten good at blending dark and light to use it up. This season we will have more to unload if the new store doesn't move enough sugar products.