New Evaporator Suggestions

[TradeRiver]

I am looking to do a serious upgrade to my evaporator next year. I tap about 250 taps right now, and I cook on a 2'x5' flat pan and I get about 15gph on a good night - I've been using it for about 10 years now. I have the opportunity to pipeline a large woods next year and could easily get to 1,000 taps. I would like to invest in a new evaporator that would allow me to grow past 1,000 taps (maybe up to 3,000 over the next 5-6 years), although I would add an RO machine at some point.

I have been looking pretty hard at the Smokey Lake Silverplate Evaporator in a 3'x10'. I have been told that they can achieve greater than 170 gph of evaporation with the complete unit. I have to say I like everything that I have seen and heard from Smokey Lake and they are located right here in WI so I could pick it up myself.

My questions:

- thoughts on the size?
- Anyone have any other thoughts on other brands? I think the 3'x10' from Smokey Lake will run in the neighborhood of $19k with all the bells and whistles - which get that 170+ gph
- Any feedback on Smokey Lake?
- How does an RO impact the evaporation rate? So if you can get 170 gph with the evaporator what would an RO do to the overall evaporation rate?

Thanks for the help everyone!

[wiam]

I am looking to do a serious upgrade to my evaporator next year. I tap about 250 taps right now, and I cook on a 2'x5' flat pan and I get about 15gph on a good night - I've been using it for about 10 years now. I have the opportunity to pipeline a large woods next year and could easily get to 1,000 taps. I would like to invest in a new evaporator that would allow me to grow past 1,000 taps (maybe up to 3,000 over the next 5-6 years), although I would add an RO machine at some point.

I have been looking pretty hard at the Smokey Lake Silverplate Evaporator in a 3'x10'. I have been told that they can achieve greater than 170 gph of evaporation with the complete unit. I have to say I like everything that I have seen and heard from Smokey Lake and they are located right here in WI so I could pick it up myself.

My questions:

- thoughts on the size?
- Anyone have any other thoughts on other brands? I think the 3'x10' from Smokey Lake will run in the neighborhood of $19k with all the bells and whistles - which get that 170+ gph
- Any feedback on Smokey Lake?
- How does an RO impact the evaporation rate? So if you can get 170 gph with the evaporator what would an RO do to the overall evaporation rate?

Thanks for the help everyone!

Evaporation rate would not change. Evaporation rate is the steam that is removed. With an ro you would make more syrup/hour. The feed rate minus the finished syrup rate equals the evaporation rate.

[mellondome]

Ro will.let you do more with less. 1500 taps on a 2x6 is reachable with an ro. Without, 300 would be about max.

Same with larger evaporators. Rough numbers.. if you concentrate to 12% , you draw off a gallon of syrup for every 7 gallons of concentrate you put in the evaporator... as oppose to every 43 gallons of 2%.

So, with 1200 taps.. on ok vac with a good run day will net you 2400 gal of sap. If you have 8 hours to boil, you will need an evaporation rate of 250GAL/HR. ( sap minus syrup /8) of 2%. With an ro going to 8 % , roughly 1/4 so about 65 gal/hr evaporation rate. Now you are looking at 2 completely different units And price ranges.( and fuel consumption rates).

This difference on 1200 taps is choosing between a 2x6 with an ro or a 4x12 without an ro.

[motowbrowne]

I think Jim's stuff (smoky lake) is top notch for sure. 170 gph from a 3x10 is a little crazy to imagine, since an old school wood rig of that size is usually rated around 80. I know he says he guarantees those rates, though.

Interestingly with the Canadian dollar so low, the price for evaporators coming from up there is very competitive. I got a quote for a 4x14 Lapierre from maple hollow in Merrill that was well below that 3x10. Of course it didn't include hoods or blowers, and it didn't keep the money here in Wisconsin, which would be nice.

Regarding the evaporation rate with an RO, I've heard an experienced producer who I met on here say that cooking concentrate isn't quite the same as cooking raw sap. He said he never fires as hard or cooks as fast with concentrate as he used to with sap. Maybe that's not the way everyone does it, but it made sense to me. If that's the case, you wouldn't be doing the full 170 with the 3x10, so it would have some impact on the evaporation rate.

Personally, I wouldn't want to run a 2x6, pretty much no matter how many taps I was running. My 2x10 (for sale here in Wisconsin, by the way) gets a lot more heat out of the same amount of wood. For your situation, I wouldn't want anything smaller than that, and there's advantages to 36" or 42" wide rigs also.

[Russell Lampron]

I'm a fan of the big RO and small evaporator. I feel that a 2 1/2 x 8 evaporator with an expandable 600 gph RO would suit your needs. When you get close to maxing out what you can do with the 600 RO you can add a second tower and it will do 1200 gph. While you are still growing the 2 1/2 x 8 won't be oversized for the tap count and the evaporation rate can be increased with the addition of an airtight AUF/AOF arch. A hood and preheater will add some gph and there is always the steamaway option too.

[nymapleguy607]

Ro will.let you do more with less. 1500 taps on a 2x6 is reachable with an ro. Without, 300 would be about max.

Same with larger evaporators. Rough numbers.. if you concentrate to 12% , you draw off a gallon of syrup for every 7 gallons of concentrate you put in the evaporator... as oppose to every 43 gallons of 2%.

So, with 1200 taps.. on ok vac with a good run day will net you 2400 gal of sap. If you have 8 hours to boil, you will need an evaporation rate of 250GAL/HR. ( sap minus syrup /8) of 2%. With an ro going to 8 % , roughly 1/4 so about 65 gal/hr evaporation rate. Now you are looking at 2 completely different units And price ranges.( and fuel consumption rates).

This difference on 1200 taps is choosing between a 2x6 with an ro or a 4x12 without an ro.


Just a thought about small evaporators and big ROs. Even if you can run 1200 taps with an RO and a 2x6 remember that the syrup pan on a 2x6 will only be 2ft long. For the amount of syrup being made you would need to plan on swapping pans everyday and probably mid boil on some occasions. A 3 or 4 ft syrup pan would probably be a much better option.

[mellondome]

Don't get hung up on my 2x6 anology. It was just used as an example of the differences you can expect with your situation. I do run 1200 + taps on a 2x6 with ro. I do soak my front pan after every boil and clean it every other boil. I also boil 18% concentrate in it.

I just wanted illustrate what you are looking to do .... using a smaller pan with ro vs evaporator only, that will handle the tap count you stated you wanted to start at. Yes, a 30 in with ro evap would be the smallest I would go if I were to start at that tap count. New 30x8 are in the 5-7k range and a used 600gph ro is 8-9k. Not sure the price in a new 4x12 but you have pricing on a 3x unit from Jim.

[n8hutch]

On my most recent boil with my 2.5 x8 Smoky lake pans I averaged 90+ GPH, No Hoods or President Heater. It Does have close to 100 square Feet of surface area so I think I am Approaching the Max evaporation rate.

I have Not Had Onever issue with my Smoky lake pans in 2 seasons. The Floats work well and I run mine at 1/2 inch over the flues and 1 to 1 1/4" on the syrup pan. Only thing I would do different if I did it again would be to get an extra divider in the sap pan so the float box could attach at the back of the pan. As it is when I refire it Boils so violently that it can shut the float off for a minute or so. So you have to keep an eye on it.

I'm not sure where you can get a 30"×8' for 5 to 7k . I have 10k in mine and I don't have the hoods. Keep in mind that a silver plate is a Cadillac of sorts. The firebox is huge and everything is stainless steel. The mild steel frame is rugged I am Very Impressed with the 2x6 silver plate my friends purchased this year. If you were looking to compare to other rigs you would have to get pricing on some thing like A lapierre Hurricane Extreme Fire. You can't compare them to a standard wood fired arch when pricing.

Great point on Evaporation rate with an RO. Guys running high concentrate do tend to run much deeper therefore slowing evap rate to some degree.

Happy Shopping

[eagle lake sugar]

I have almost 3000 taps and run a 2x8 h20 evaporator with 14% concentrate, so it can be done. I will be getting a larger evaporator soon though because I work full time and simply can't boil into the wee hours every morning. Trees just don't run as well here in northern Maine as they do south of here though, we never ever get even close to 2gpt in a day, even with 27" of vacuum to the tap. A real good day here would be 1gpt, if I were in Pa, or Ct. I could never get by with a 2x8.

[mapledavefarm]

I would suspect that most of the US and Canadian manufactures would be less than 19k for a comparable 3x10 evaporator. Don't get hung up on anyone's claimed evaporation rates, surface area is what boils sap. If you want the highest evaporation rate for your buck I would ask each manufacture what is total surface area of their evaporators. Example, lets say manufacture A's 3x10 evaporator has 10% more surface area than manufacture B's 3x10. I would expert manufacture A's 3x10 to evaporate 10% more sap with the same enhancements. Plain and simple, there is no magic here, surface area is the key to evaporating sap and the math used to determine surface area cannot be exaggerated.

[GeneralStark]

Surface area is certainly a major factor but so is flue size and depth, # of flues, and of course don't forget the arch the pans are sitting on. My 2.5 x 8 pans on a trad. wood rig will not boil like same pans on a high efficiency wood arch. With a preheater and hoods I can get over 100 gph. Don't know of too many trad. arches of the same size that could do that.

I too would suggest going with a smaller rig and starting with an ro from the beginning. If you are at 1000 taps, start with a used 5-600 gph and then upgrade the ro as you expand.

[mapledavefarm]

Surface area is certainly a major factor but so is flue size and depth, # of flues, and of course don't forget the arch the pans are sitting on. My 2.5 x 8 pans on a trad. wood rig will not boil like same pans on a high efficiency wood arch. With a preheater and hoods I can get over 100 gph. Don't know of too many trad. arches of the same size that could do that.

I too would suggest going with a smaller rig and starting with an ro from the beginning. If you are at 1000 taps, start with a used 5-600 gph and then upgrade the ro as you expand.

A major part of a evaporators surface area is Flue size and depth, # of flues. Surface area is a surface with heat on side and liquid on the other. I agree, that's why I said " same enhancements". A high efficiency arch is a enhancement In my book. So if you put a 2.5 x 8 pan set with 10% more surface area than your current pan set, would it be safe to say you could expect a boil rate of about 110 gph from your evaporator?

[GeneralStark]

I thought you meant surface area as the area of liquid exposed in the pan. When I was shopping for a new rig I was comparing pan size surface area between different manufacturers' suggested boiling rates. I think I misread your post and now I see what you mean and yes more pan to liquid surface area will mean higher gph.

[Maple Man 85]

So if you decide to run a smaller evaporator and an RO what happens when your RO goes down? Are you able to still keep up with cooking, how quickly can the RO be repaired, can the extra you can't cook be sold or are you going to have to dump it? In my option I would rather run a little larger evaporator and run it less with an RO than take the chance of the RO failing and not be able to process the sap. I would recommending that if you go with a smaller evaporator that a great deal of research goes into the RO and which one you purchase additionally having a few extra parts on hand to fix known potential problems would be a good idea.

Maple Man 85

[Russell Lampron]

I have had my Lapeirre RO since 2005 and have never had it go down on me. I know that if it does help is just a phone call away and I have 4G in the sugarhouse. Others that I know that have had problems were able to get them fixed fast enough to not lose any sap. Customer service from the big manufacturers is a lot better than it was just a few years ago. They will bend over backwards to take care of your problem and get you up and running as soon as possible.

[TradeRiver]

Can the evaporator be too big? In other words if you you had a larger evaporator - say a 3' x 14' and you had an off year and didn't tap as many trees, or had a poor run is it hard to cook? Say instead of 1000 taps you did 250 one year and then had a slow run - are the larger evaporators OK if you are collecting 100 gallons a day?

[mellondome]

Larger the evaporator, the more sap you will need before firing it up. If you only have 100 gal and your rig will process 200gal/hr, you won't get to a good boil before you shut back down. I won't fire up my 2x6 without 2 hours of boil time in the head tank.

[Russell Lampron]

Yes an evaporator can be too big. It takes a lot of sap to fill a big one just to sweeten the pans.

[Sugarmaker]

My two pennies on this issue is a 3 x 8 rig to start then add the RO when you cant keep up with the boiling due to tap count increase. The 3 x 10 is what we are running and I like it. But I have ran one about this size with no RO for many years. They are easy to fire. The wood area is easy to get the wood in. We did boil sap from 1000 taps one year (for friends) and made 250 gallons of syrup. Mine is old and runs about 120-140 Gph with our home built WRU "steam away" in place. Last year we did 640 taps and made 200 gallons of syrup.
Regards,
Chris

[mapledavefarm]

I thought you meant surface area as the area of liquid exposed in the pan. When I was shopping for a new rig I was comparing pan size surface area between different manufacturers' suggested boiling rates. I think I misread your post and now I see what you mean and yes more pan to liquid surface area will mean higher gph.

So how does the smokey lake 3x10 achieve 170 gph while Leader with a 3x10 max flue with approximately 40% more surface area only claims about 120 gph with their best arch and the Sunrise 3x10 with almost 90% more surface area claims 140 gph with their best arch? Am I missing the magic ?

[Sugarmaker]

We might have to know all of the accessories that come with it to get to the 170? Seems a little high to me, but I am pretty old school with my old arch. Could be some magic? Jim may have some improvements to get even mor out of his rigs?
I would like to see one boil. Non around me yet. I like Jims work! Looks great.
Regards,
Chris

[motowbrowne]

So how does the smokey lake 3x10 achieve 170 gph while Leader with a 3x10 max flue with approximately 40% more surface area only claims about 120 gph with their best arch and the Sunrise 3x10 with almost 90% more surface area claims 140 gph with their best arch? Am I missing the magic ?

I'd like to know the same thing. He also claims 200 gph from his silver plate 3x12. Actually he guarantees these numbers but says they do even better than that in real life. So if a 3x12 does 200, what's a 6x18 do???

[n8hutch]

3x7 flue pan with 16 flues.
1 flue 8"x8"x1"-7'=9.9 sq ft per flue.
16x9.9=159 sq ft
3x3 syrup pan 9 sq ft
Total of 166 sq ft.
1 gph per square ft.

Jim crams alot of flues in his sap pans, my 30" by 5.5' sap pan has 14 flues. For a total of 92. Sq ft of surface area.

[RustyBuckets]

There are several manufactures who has the same amount of flues on the market, also if you do the math on the max flue pan or Sunrises deep flued pan and there is many more inches of surface area on either one of them. Plus there arches offer both air over and air under versus just air under. Would love to know the formula being used to get these numbers being claimed.

[mellondome]

The numbers are all marketing. What is the easiest way to sell a bigger evaporator which makes you more money? Convince the buyer that the smaller cheaper one is not big enough for his needs.
Also, with evaporation numbers... 5 people can fire the same rig with the same conditions and get 6 different evaporation rates.

[nymapleguy607]

The numbers are all marketing. What is the easiest way to sell a bigger evaporator which makes you more money? Convince the buyer that the smaller cheaper one is not big enough for his needs.
Also, with evaporation numbers... 5 people can fire the same rig with the same conditions and get 6 different evaporation rates.

You hit the nail on the head. I know the numbers Leader typically post are numbers that anybody should be able to hit. For a 3x10 to achieve 170gph you would need almost 5.6gph of evaporation for every square foot of evaporator. I know CDL rates the intensofire at 5gph/sqft under full forced air condition, more typical number would be 3.5-4 gph/sqft.

[mapledavefarm]

I'd like to know the same thing. He also claims 200 gph from his silver plate 3x12. Actually he guarantees these numbers but says they do even better than that in real life. So if a 3x12 does 200, what's a 6x18 do???

Does anyone even have a 3x12 Smokey Lake in real life?

[motowbrowne]

I would be surprised if no one did. I know I saw someone's website where they'd had Jim make up a set of pans for a pretty big rig. Like maybe a 5 or 6 by 14. Something pretty substantial. He makes really nice stuff, that's for sure. I know if I was looking for a new rig, I'd sure consider him. I think CDL wants 27,000 for a 3x12 intense o fire rated at 155 gph. If a 3x12 silver plate does 200 and costs less, you'd be silly not to consider it.

One question, though, these silver plate evaporators, are they AOF/AUF rigs like a force 5 or an intense-o-fire, or just airtight front with AUF?

Lastly, beyond total square footage, there's bound to be other factors. For example, I notice sunrise lists that they use 20 gauge steel (in the ad from their dealer on the other forum). Jim uses 22 gauge. So even if the surface area seems skewed, this may account for some of the additional performance from Jim's rigs.

[GeneralStark]

So how does the smokey lake 3x10 achieve 170 gph while Leader with a 3x10 max flue with approximately 40% more surface area only claims about 120 gph with their best arch and the Sunrise 3x10 with almost 90% more surface area claims 140 gph with their best arch? Am I missing the magic ?

i really don't know how they come up with these numbers. I briefly considered a Leader rig and would not personally purchase a rig from Smokey Lane or Sunrise. Maybe there is magic involved but I doubt it.

I'm personally not too obsessed with boil rates but I can say that the 5gph/sq.ft (sap surface area) CDL uses to rate the Intens-O-Fire is accurate in my experience. They have also provided amazing support, which in the maple syrup business is more important to me than advertised boil rates.

I have seen many rigs boil, and can generally say that it seems the big manufacturers are pretty accurate with their ratings. Perhaps it is possible to go see a Smokey Lake or a Sunrise boil and see for one's self their boil rates, but I don't know where that would happen. I would say that seeing a rig boil is the first thing anyone considering purchasing a new evaporator should do.

[mapledavefarm]

I would be surprised if no one did. I know I saw someone's website where they'd had Jim make up a set of pans for a pretty big rig. Like maybe a 5 or 6 by 14. Something pretty substantial. He makes really nice stuff, that's for sure. I know if I was looking for a new rig, I'd sure consider him. I think CDL wants 27,000 for a 3x12 intense o fire rated at 155 gph. If a 3x12 silver plate does 200 and costs less, you'd be silly not to consider it.

One question, though, these silver plate evaporators, are they AOF/AUF rigs like a force 5 or an intense-o-fire, or just airtight front with AUF?

Lastly, beyond total square footage, there's bound to be other factors. For example, I notice sunrise lists that they use 20 gauge steel (in the ad from their dealer on the other forum). Jim uses 22 gauge. So even if the surface area seems skewed, this may account for some of the additional performance from Jim's rigs.

The difference between 22 gauge stainless and 20 gauge stainless is .006 thousandths, or less than the thickness of 2 sheets of paper. I am no expert on heat transfer but I wouldn't think .006 thousandths would make much of a difference.

[Bruce L]

If you were able to get out and see some of these rigs boil it would help you make up your mind.I drove 4 hours two years in a row to see the rigs boil at the open houses in Swanton and area,glad I did because I almost pulled the trigger on one outfit,until I saw the Vortex boil,then there was no going back,it was an easy choice for me.