Tree ID Conformation

[Cedar Eater]

In my home sugarbush I've only ever found red maples, except for one possible freeman maple which I've only just recently discovered. But the existence of a freeman maple suggests there's a silver maple nearby to produce the red and silver cross. So I went to my deer camp where I know I have reds and think I have silvers and where I suspect I have a very large freeman. So here's my three specimens. I'm pretty sure they are red, silver, and freeman in that order.

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Anybody think I got it wrong? The third tree has an estimated diameter of 24".

[CampHamp]

It looks like a horizontal scar from a sugar maple borer in that first photo. I'm probably wrong, but when I see those scars I think sugar maple...

[happy thoughts]

My first thought on the first pic was sugar maple but I could be wrong, too. Not sure about the second. Buds, leaves, and samara will give you a positive id of all of them and will be much easier than looking at bark alone. They should be showing up in days to a couple of weeks. Wait for more clues and let us know what you find out.

[Cedar Eater]

If it's a sugar, that would be great, because I know I can find it again. But isn't the bark too flaky for sugar maple?

[Run Forest Run!]

Cedar, your third photo is very similar to my Freeman maples.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar, your third photo is very similar to my Freeman maples.

Thanks, Karen. It's great to finally figure out what that tree is. I will try to get confirmation with leaves and seeds this season. Do you know if they make viable seeds? I would like to plant some out in the open in tree tubes along with silvers and reds I have already started. I guess if it turns out that my first tree is a sugar, I will try to start some of them, too.

[maple flats]

Look at the buds right now, if they come to a single sharp point it is sugar maple, if not it may well be a Freeman Maple.

[Run Forest Run!]

Cedar, I'm not aware if they are viable or not. The good news for my lawn is that mine don't seem to drop a ton of keys. My Norway on the other hand...

[Cedar Eater]

Look at the buds right now, if they come to a single sharp point it is sugar maple, if not it may well be a Freeman Maple.

I love the fact that you've given me so much advice, maple flats, unfortunately I would need a rocket pack with hover capability to get up and see the buds. All my woods trees at both sites are very tall and have no remaining branches near the ground. I tried using binoculars, but I can't keep them still enough to focus on the buds. My wife's camera has a good zoom feature and can connect to a tripod, so maybe I can try that the next time I get to deer camp.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar, I'm not aware if they are viable or not. The good news for my lawn is that mine don't seem to drop a ton of keys. My Norway on the other hand...

Dem durn Norvegians. I'll have to keep an eye on the suspected freeman and try the seeds.

[happy thoughts]

But isn't the bark too flaky for sugar maple?

No, it was the way the bark is lifting that made me think it might be a sugar. Look at the bark pic here:

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/kids/tree_sug.htm

as for freeman's, some of the info I googled says seeds may be sterile if they flower at all. That may be why Karen's trees don't reseed much.

And if you can't see buds then wait for the leaves and seeds. They should be along soon enough..

[David in MI]

So what's the difference between a Freeman maple and an autumn blaze maple? Or are they the same thing?

[happy thoughts]

I think autumn blaze is a specific cultivar of a freemans. Reds and silvers can hybridize in the wild but there are also cultivated varieties. You can see a few of the cultivars here:

http://www.jfschmidt.com/pdfs/jfs-freeman-maples.pdf

[Cedar Eater]

Thanks, happy thoughts. I'll keep an eye on that tree and the other maples at deer camp. I'm pretty sure that the suspect freeman maple is not a sugar maple, because it is sitting right on the edge (actually leaning over) of a seasonal pond that stays wet well into August most years.

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[happy thoughts]

It's the one with the lifting bark in your first pic that camphamp and I were talking about. Is that one growing in or near water, too?

[Cedar Eater]

It's the one with the lifting bark in your first pic that camphamp and I were talking about. Is that one growing in or near water, too?

The tree in the first picture that I guessed as a red is on a ridge about five feet higher in elevation than a seasonal pond that's about ten yards away. The ridge never gets flooded. The silver and the freeman are much closer to water and at a lower elevation relative to it. The soil in the area is generally clay.

[happy thoughts]

If that tree turns out not to be a soft maple another maple you should consider it might be is black maple which also grows in your area. Blacks are hard maples like sugars and some think they're a subspecies. Their leaves look a little different than sugars and may look droopy or wilted. They also hybridize with sugars which can make ID-ing one or the other a little harder.

[Cedar Eater]

If that tree turns out not to be a soft maple another maple you should consider it might be is black maple which also grows in your area. Blacks are hard maples like sugars and some think they're a subspecies. Their leaves look a little different than sugars and may look droopy or wilted. They also hybridize with sugars which can make ID-ing one or the other a little harder.

Thanks. I will learn the difference and see what it is. I've never heard of any blacks in this area, but it may be a case of people not knowing the difference. I would really love to get all of the locally native species growing along a field/road edge that has full sun on the north line of my deer camp.

[Cedar Eater]

This is a pic of the suspected freeman maple tree on my home sugarbush. It's probably too young to say it's definitely not a red, but I have much smaller and younger trees that are very clearly reds that make this one stand out like a definite oddball. It's about 14" dbh. It's very possible that one of my neighbors has a silver that crossed with one of my reds to drop this guy into my cedar swamp. I have not found any silvers on my property.

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[Marcus]

My designer friend always wants to plant Autumn Blaze- Jeffersred because she says they don't reseed. I do think they do have some seeds but very little. Definitely used a lot in central Ohio.

[jimsudz]

I may be wrong But I think they are all Red Maple. I have no Idea about a freeman maple,never herd of it. The best pic of a red maple is the second pic,looks like one that has grown in a higher elevation. The first is one grown in lower elevation,near water. The third is a faster growing tree with a smoother bark,but also growing in wetter ground. I have a few reds looking like the first pic,but I know the are reds. Red maples get a bulls eye looking pattern in there bark. The best way to tell is by there leaves when they have them. I do know that silvers in my area are usually ornamental and they are starting to bud.Hope I helped and not confused you.Just noticed the water in the back ground of pic 2,but it is a red maple

[Cedar Eater]

My designer friend always wants to plant Autumn Blaze- Jeffersred because she says they don't reseed. I do think they do have some seeds but very little. Definitely used a lot in central Ohio.

I thought most ornamental cultivars were grafted and didn't reseed because of that.

[Cedar Eater]

I may be wrong But I think they are all Red Maple. I have no Idea about a freeman maple,never herd of it. The best pic of a red maple is the second pic,looks like one that has grown in a higher elevation. The first is one grown in lower elevation,near water. The third is a faster growing tree with a smoother bark,but also growing in wetter ground. I have a few reds looking like the first pic,but I know the are reds. Red maples get a bulls eye looking pattern in there bark. The best way to tell is by there leaves when they have them. I do know that silvers in my area are usually ornamental and they are starting to bud.Hope I helped and not confused you.Just noticed the water in the back ground of pic 2,but it is a red maple

The trees in the first and second pics are only about 5 yards from each other and the second tree is at a lower elevation by about 3'. The third tree is about 70 yards from them. It's much larger than either of the first two. The second tree has the same kind of bark as a tree that dropped seeds (samara) that were three times the length of red maple samara. Here's a pic of that tree.

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I planted the seeds from that tree last year and one of them grew to within six inches of the top of a 5' tree tube. I'm pretty sure it's a silver.

[bmbmkr]

Pic 2 is definitely a silver, or "water maple" as they are called here in southern Ohio. We have some double and triple trunked trees on our farm pushing 4' and 5' in diameter. I'm goin to tap them when I get an RO, we have about 150 of them all growing along the creekbank. A few grow up in the hills, (500' of toporaphy on our farm) they are all in or close to the drains and hollers, close to wet ground. I've never heard of freeman maples, but if that's what #3 is, we have a few dozen of them too, and they have been drivin me nuts, trying to figure out what they are! Keep the info comin. Oh yeah, I bet money that #2 has pointy leaves with smaller lobes than the sugars.