line size, ladders and flooded mains.

[Woodsymiles]

So leased our bush a while ago and leaders ran all new line, had never done it before and now I am trying make it work better....before the leasers the lower bush was on gravity with no sap ladders. The set up now has a 1" double main line with 4 1" lines heading up slope from that. Those drain fine and always have good vac to em...but the 2nd line coming off double main goes to 3 sap ladders that have 3 1" main lines coming in at the bottom and actually one of the suspended main lines has laterals coming into it...so what happens to this lower area is, it gets flooded out bad, no vac in lots of areas, I can crack ladder valves, shut all other main line valves and it stays the same, the leasers put a double star on lowest ladder but it doesn't help...especially since I'm running an old Delaval 78 and pulling 11" of vac....but I was wood putting a valve on the end of the lower main line would help of that was opened sometimes or left cracked open. Or does that lower main main line need to be bigger? I hope tat next year I'll have a vac pulling close to 29" to help solve this prob....

[Woodsymiles]

The sugar bush covers 10 acres.

[GeneralStark]

You are on the right track by planning to get a better pump. You're not getting enough CFM with that pump to really test the system.

As far as the ladders go:

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?27399-Sap-ladders

[Woodsymiles]

I read that other thread, thanks for the link, it mentioned adding risers to clear pooling, so the lowest ladder does have 2 risers, would another be too many? Like to get some kind of quick fix for this year to get that flooded sap out because there are a lot of taps in that area, prob minimum of a 1/3 of the bush.

[BAP]

That is a good pump and capable of pulling a lot of CFM's. They were made to take a 5hp, 7.5hp and 10hp motors. As the size of the motor increases, the pulleys change speeding up the pump. If you put a larger motor on it and speed it up you will bet more CFM's. What size line are you running from the pump to the releaser? You should be running at least a 1-1/2" preferably 2" to the releaser from the pump.

[Shaun]

For what it is worth I recently read Cornell's book on vacuum and line loss. It was really depressing how big of lines you need to run to transfer CFM's. According to the book a 60 cfm pump is capable of 8 CFM @ 1000 feet of 1 inch mainline. Also a 15 CFM pump is capable of just about the same at that distance on the chart. Oversizing a pump is definitely a possibility according to this book.

[Shaun]

For what it is worth I recently read Cornell's book on vacuum and line loss. It was really depressing how big of lines you need to run to transfer CFM's. According to the book a 60 cfm pump is capable of 8 CFM @ 1000 feet of 1 inch mainline. Also a 15 CFM pump is capable of just about the same at that distance on the chart. Oversizing a pump is definitely a possibility according to this book.
I'll clarify. I guess the pump cannot be to big. A single phase 240v 10 HP can make a pretty big electric bill if your CFM's are restricted by line size.

[Woodsymiles]

That is a good pump and capable of pulling a lot of CFM's. They were made to take a 5hp, 7.5hp and 10hp motors. As the size of the motor increases, the pulleys change speeding up the pump. If you put a larger motor on it and speed it up you will bet more CFM's. What size line are you running from the pump to the releaser? You should be running at least a 1-1/2" preferably 2" to the releaser from the pump.

I've tried a 6" pulley on motor getting 1150's in rpm from motor, it was zinging, pulley great vac...in the 20's but would blow fuses after 15min of running...it would all of a sudden bog than pow...so have a 4" pulley on now and can run all day and night no prob...there is 2" pipe to releaser.

[BreezyHill]

...so what happens to this lower area is, it gets flooded out bad, no vac in lots of areas, I can crack ladder valves, shut all other main line valves and it stays the same, the leasers put a double star on lowest ladder but it doesn't help...especially since I'm running an old Delaval 78 and pulling 11" of vac....but I was wood putting a valve on the end of the lower main line would help of that was opened sometimes or left cracked open. Or does that lower main main line need to be bigger? I hope tat next year I'll have a vac pulling close to 29" to help solve this prob....

So we have some time to get this running before the next potential run before the season ends...so

Why is the 78 only making 11" of vac and where is this reading at?

What is the height of each ladder and what style is each ladder?

A couple of things for you to think about: a good working 78 will pull at least 25"...there must be a reason she is only doing 11".
installing 12 risers to feed 6 risers is backwards.
the volume of a 1" main is equal to 10.2 5/16 risers or 4 1/2" risers.
Where does the pooling of sap start, in relation to the pump?

Ladders need vac. If you only have 11" of vac then I would not expect a ladder taller than 8' to work well.

This season I have been battling squirrels in the warm winter and my vac has been as low as 23" and generally runs 27-28 on a delaval 73 and 75 as a backup. 75 is turned on when the vac drops to add more cfms to the system to elevate the vac reading. Find the leaks and then she goes off. My tallest ladder is 18' and is the 3rd in a series of 7. She is still a spider ladder but #1 & #2 have been changed to 1/2" risers to get better cfm transfer.

putting a valve on the end of the main would help to some extent but is not recommended. This would have a negative effect on the vac to the lateral mains. An injector close to the ladder will be able to be adjusted to clear a pool of sap.

I tried what a couple of producers said worked on their systems to get better ladder performance and it was the same result as I have found for several years...failed.

You only need an injector if you have a tight system. The injected air supplements the tree gases to help raise the sap up the ladder. When a squirrel put a nick in a line I found the ladder needed no injection so the valve was closed and I searched for a leak. Found it wraped it with electrical tape and got back to the ladder and the 1" main was flooded in less than 5 minutes. Opened the injector and the ladder was working and the pool was cleared moments later. Very simple.
13801
The pic is n example of a leaker and a CV to keep bugs out.

[Woodsymiles]

I got the pump with no motor and the only oil feed was the little bottle with two lines feeding the pump. Been a process but at the pump I get 13" or so of vac, a good 30' away at releaser I get the 11". I partially hooked a better oil feed system today with 3/8 hose and fittings, the vac went up and the pump got a lot quieter...but had to go back to old system because I need to route exhaust through a collection barrel. Not sure how much more a better oiling system will take it. Maybe a bearing is bad. I'd hafta measure the sap ladder but highest is maybe 15'. The flooded lines are at the end of the farthest main lines off lowest sap ladder. Something like 400'+ away from pump.

[BreezyHill]

Ok...the fact that the vac dropped 2" in 30' is an issue. The line connecting the pump to the releaser needs to be resized larger...the friction loss is going to get even worse on a higher vac reading. bad bearing is a grouweling sound in the housing or a squeal if it is really bad. Extra oil should quite the vanes and will increase the vac by making a better seal on the housing; but if the motor is not working as much then it could be a bearing.

Most like the housing needs a honing and a set of vanes to get her back to high vac.

Send me a pm.

15' isn't bad if you are having vac above 20".

[BreezyHill]

Ok...the fact that the vac dropped 2" in 30' is an issue. The line connecting the pump to the releaser needs to be resized larger...the friction loss is going to get even worse on a higher vac reading. bad bearing is a grouweling sound in the housing or a squeal if it is really bad. Extra oil should quite the vanes and will increase the vac by making a better seal on the housing; but if the motor is not working as much then it could be a bearing.

Most like the housing needs a honing and a set of vanes to get her back to high vac.

Send me a pm.

15' isn't bad if you are having vac above 20".

[Woodsymiles]

Vac line to releaser is 2", its pieced together pvc so there could be leaks, better to have a rugged hose instead but reusing what the leasers left.

[maple flats]

PVC pipe is rather cheap, try putting in new, or better, if you can get it do 2.5" but most places don't carry that, then go to 3".

[Woodsymiles]

PVC pipe is rather cheap, try putting in new, or better, if you can get it do 2.5" but most places don't carry that, then go to 3".

I tore vacuum all apart, it needs to be rebuilt, and there are a few leaks in pic, like to run a flexible line to releaser because all of the line is suspended and prone to failure. Pic taken from sugar house tank platform.

[BreezyHill]

Home Depot has a thread sealer that will cure the leaks. Block...gray can and it is cleared for potable water use. I have used this many times. use it just like you were glueing the connection of the pvc and the leak will stop. Try not to get it on your closes or hands...pita to get it off.

Frictional loses in the vac transfer is what makes all pumps equal in a short distance on the same size pump.

The other benefit of using a 3" pvc to the releaser is it will service as a balance tank for your releaser...making the recovery after the dump cycle that much quicker.

Since you work in a machine shop the rebuild should be pretty easy as long as you can get the face plate in quickly. The heli coil is not an issue just use some blue thread lock to keep it in place in the housing. A drop of oil to the plate bolt so the thread lock will not attach to the bolt.

Good Luck!

[Woodsymiles]

Great info, thanks!