Ness some advice PLEASE !! ! ! ! !

[JeffB]

Hi
I did my first boil down with my evaporator on a hybrid pan it has drop flues at the back and 2 finishing compartments at the front it's all in one pan.
The problem I have is I can't seem to get front finishing pan to boil really hard and make close to draw off tempatures.
I boiled about 100 gallons today and sweetened the pan but nothing close to syrup it just super sweetened all areas of the 2x4 pan.
Any ideas how I can get the front pan to boil harder I have a ramp and blockage before the chimney to slow it down a bit I have auf that might be a little less than I actually need. I tried everything today, open the door for more draft,closed the door tried coffee dry wood.
Ran my pan from Max one and half inch to lowest three quarter of a inch.
I have 8ft of 8inch stack after 36 inch length of base stack so draft can't be the issue.
PLEASE HELP OR ADVICE THIS VERY FRUSTRATING I THINK I HAVE
TRYED EVERTHING BUT MAYBE I'M MISSING SOMETHING
THANKS

[Clinkis]

It takes a while to get a continuous flow evaporator sweetened. If yesterday was your first day boiling I'm not really surprised you didn't make any syrup. Keep it going and you will. My evaporator is smaller then yours and it takes me at least 100 gallons of sap before I start making syrup. A friend of mine has the exact pan you have I can ask him if he's had any issues.

[psparr]

Also to add to that. If you start making syrup in the center channel, start drawing off slowly to pull the syrup toward the draw off. Then add what you pulled off back into the center channel slowly.

[JeffB]

Hey
That would be great if you can ask your friend any help
Would be great.
This was very first boil of SAP in it other then a test boil of water.
I can't seem to get front syrup draw off compartment to boil very hard at all just a really good simmer

[Big_Eddy]

Jeff. Post a picture showing the profile of your arch (side view) and the top. If sap is going in and steam is coming off you will eventually get to syrup. Try to keep your firing rate even and your sap level as constant as possible. Any changes in depth force sap to move back and forth in the pans and increase the time before your first draw.

[Sugarmaker]

Hi,
I see one thing in your post that bothered me. You have some type of blockage near the back of the flues? Not sure but you may have restricted the draft??? What is the size of the restricted area compared to the stack area?
You should be getting close to syrup if you have 2% sap. What is your sugar content?
Have fun!
Regards,
Chris

[JeffB]

Hey guys
I posted a picture of the best side view I have of the arch . The restriction at back of flue pan is to slw the flames and gasses down a bit, the opening is 1.5 inches tall and 24 inches wide flowing into a 3 inch wide by 20 inch base stack 36 inches long then into 10 foot of 8 inch stack.
This was the first boil of SAP I found a few things that need tweaking but they are pretty easy fixes .
The biggest problem is no boil in the syrup pans I think I gonna try more air under fire with a 150 cfm blower my blower now after researching it only blows about 75 cfm.
What is best way to put AUF just pump it into the ash pit from the back or direct it upward toward fire grates.
My ashpit is about 23 wide and about 24 long and from bottom of fire grate to bottom of arch is about 6 to 8 inches deep.
Send me your knowledge or thoughts please
Thanks in advance:)

[Maple Man 85]

Also run check your sap level in the pans run them 1'' to an 1 1/2 deep if you are not already.

[JeffB]

That was one of the tweeks to get the syrup pan thermometer to work proper had to have 2 inches in the pan, I adjusted the float box to see if I could get pans to boil. I went as low as 3/4 inch ( a little nerve racking with a brand new pan that I never boiled on before but no scortch marks lol ) but not much success with raising a harder boil in syrup pan but drop flue section did freaking go nuts and start throwing sap outta the pan.

[mellondome]

Block off the front 6in of your grates. This will forct the draft air through the fire and keep it from just going up the door and cooling the bottom of the front pan.

[JeffB]

Actually that might be the solution ,it makes perfect sense why front pan won't boil. I'm also gonna add a bigger cfm blower this week .I DO know I'm under aired as well.

[JeffB]

UPDATE.....

I added a bigger blower about 120 cfm .under the grates I blocked off the front of a!rch about 6 inches. I also added a row of half bricks to the side of arch that run parallel to the drop flues.
I did a test boil with water and the front pan boiled good I actually had foam in it
I did notice a small measurement mistake I was told to have about 5 inches of the drop flues in the fire box area i never noticed I have about 10 inches ,
I didn't account for my ramp length.could this be a big problem as well? ? ? ?
Once I noticed this after the test boil I added a row of half brick on top of the grate at the base of my ramp to cut off 4inches to see if it will direct flames up more rather then just follow the ramp right up into the flue area. Any thoughts on this ? ??
Thanks

[JeffB]

Hey
Well I pulled out the fire brick pulled out the welder and grinder. I fabricated a new rear ramp wall so that only about 5 inches of the drop flues are hanging into the firebox.
The brick morter cement was s little difficult to scrap off so a quick jump over the morter with the diamond cut off wheel cleaned them up nice and remortered them back into place. .
Re fabricating the rear ramp brought it a little more 90 degrees so the front pans should get a lot more heat and flame on them.
Hope the next boil boil goes well with the adjustments to airflow and reworking the angle and the lenght of the ramp.

[cowboy729]

I have a hybrid pan just like you describe. I don't run a blower yet never have an issue with the front pans boiling hard. I do open the ash drawer a little to put air through the coals if they are building up to much.. It's important to remember to not put to much air unless you have a really good bead of coals, otherwise your pushing to much cold air into the fire. Without insulting your intelligence remember the importance of very small dry wood. I don't see an issue with your flues into your firebox but an important thing to remember when you have that is to be very carful when loading wood. You don't want to hit the flues. To the comment of not drawing off any syrup yet. Your pan takes a large amount of sap from start to finish to start drawing off, like one of they other comments mentioned draw off a little and put it back into the middle pan to help start the flow. Anyways hope this helps out a little and the weather gives you some sap.

[Big_Eddy]

Hey guys
I posted a picture of the best side view I have of the arch .

I'm not seeing it ??

Before we get too far into troubleshooting, I don't recall seeing what evaporation rate you're hitting. At 1 1/2" depth, I'd expect you to be at 16-20gph or so without much blower, 25ish with the new blower. How far off are you?

What size wood are you burning (and what is coffee dry wood ???)

In your initial post you mentioned that you sweetened the whole pan. Changes in depth are the culprit here. Every time the depth increases or decreases, you move sap back and forth within the pans, mixing the sap and averaging out your concentration. Pick a depth that you are comfortable with an stick with it. The gradient will reestablish itself over time as you keep adding raw sap at the back.

[JeffB]

So frustrated now. I made all the changes and tore threw 128 gallons on Friday. But not 1 drop of even close to syrup .it sweetened the h
Whole pan. A little heavier in the front but not much.
I ran pan at 1.5 inches never adjusted it at all. I reloaded wood every 6 minutes with coffee dry mixe.d soft wood and 2 season dried maple and oak all split wrist or smaller.
Stack temps I kept in tn the range of 750 to a 1000 was my max
I can't figure it out even after shut down last night I checked for pan levelness ,it's so close to perfect so that can't be a issue.
I figured my gph rate to be about 18.5
Worst thing I can always super sweet the pan and finish completely in the garage but my point is that's not why I bought the pan.
I wanted to either draw off syrup or as close to it as possible then just a small finish on propane rather then a few hours on propane.

[JeffB]

Well Sunday afternoon update . I tryed EVERTHING over 2 days todraw off close to syrup. No luck.! .
I boiled 120 gallons Friday and sweetened the pan:( .
I started will the concentrate this morning and boiled 140 gallons today .
I had the pan and firebox rocking at a rate of about 21 gallons a hour and a stack temp constant 900 to 1000 degrees.
I ended up over 2 days boiling 260 gallons . I had to shut down cause i was outta sap. I did a total clean out of the pan and float box and ended up with 45 liters of super sweet concentrate.
I'm gonna have to finish on the propane for several hours I figure :mad:
I guess this will have to do but kinda pissy that I spent good money on a hybrid pan that's suppose to make near syrup but all I'm doing with it is batch boiling at a huge rate with the drop flue section. Happy about the boil rate on average over 2 days from start up to complete shutdown time included
I managed about 19.5 gallons a hour.
If my next boil doesn't produce the results I'm looking for I'm gonna take the pan and have piping and a valve welded in so that it's a drop flue finishing pan all 1 that I can control when to allow the heavy SAP to enter the finishing compartment.

[maple flats]

Why do you keep removing everything from the pan and finishing on propane? First off, I only drain my pans when I'm going to clean them, If I slide a non metallic spatula along the bottom of the syrup pan and it slides good, it stays there until I next have sap to boil. If it sort of grabs even the slightest on the spatula, I drain it into my draw off tank, then after cleaning the pan, it goes right back in for the next boil.
My guess is that you are making so many changes that you could not figure out the issue if there was one. start with 1" or maybe 1.25" deep in the pan and burn as hot as you can. Maintain that depth and you will get syrup. If when you run out of sap and the pan cool you detect sugar sand (usually a slightly gritty scale on the bottom, but some years it is just loose silt like, then drain it into any combination of appropriate pots, cover them and clean the pan. When done, rather than lighting up the propane, put it back in the evaporator. It's a good idea to use a cover to keep anything from getting into the pan, and wait for more sap. Since that boiled a long time, it will keep at cold temps 35F or colder, but it won't freeze for over a week to even 2 weeks, at 40-50F 3 days might be the max. I you get to the max with no new sap, then finish it off, but if you get the new sap, start the fire again and maintain the same depth. It is impossible to take a definate volume of sap (if it has any sugar in it) and boil it for ever and not get to syrup.
Sometimes you will make syrup in the middle but not at the draw off, do as others suggest, draw a little slowly (maybe 1-2 qut max. and then slowly add it in the middle. You will be able to see where it is closer to being syrup by the bubbles as it boils. The looks of the bubbles change as you get closer to syrup. Another question, how are you determining if you have syrup, thermometer or hydrometer or other method? If thermometer, did you boil water very hard and get the temperature? Another question, if using a thermometer, how close to the bottom of the pan is it? You want to be about 1/4" to max. 3/8" off the bottom (I have mine at 1/8-1/4").
In you last scene you boiled 260 gal of sap over 2 days, how much does your pan hold at the depth you are boiling? If you have slightly over 6 gal in the pans (6.047 gal to rounded to 3 places), it is all syrup if the sap was 2% sugar.
Personally I think you are trying too hard, set back and enjoy this addiction.
If you are boiling at 1.25" deep you have 6.2333 gal in the pan plus whatever the flues hold, if at 1" you have 80% of that (plus the flue capacity).
Have you tested your sap? You might be boiling sap at extremely low sugar content.

[JeffB]

Nope float box is set for 1 and half inch total on the pan. I had the hottest boil going i could get ,SAP was jumping out of the flue pan.. Hottest syrup part of pan over the firebox would get for both boils was 214.. I understand the principal of sweetening the pan for the next boil and did that. But come on after running 260 gallons on SAP through the pan without ever draining the pan I should had drawn off syrup not end up with 40 liters of concentrate at the end of boilng all amount.

[JeffB]

I tested the SAP on my refractor and was 2.21 percent yes I boiled the thermometer in a stupid hard boil for 5 minutes before I set it at 0.
Several times thinking that it was set wrong or incorrectly reading . even double checked with a digital thermometer .I also checked all 3 compartments of the pan and reached 214 215 degrees all the same none got any hotter , It's almost like the flue pan is letting to much heavy SAP into the front syrup pans and not letting it have time to get higher in temp and get heaverier toward the syrup stage.

[Clinkis]

Spoke to my buddy who has your exact pan and has no idea why you are having problems? He runs his pan about an inch. He only empties his pan when they get really dirty. He's usually drawing syrup after 150 gallons or so. Once he has his pan sweetened he makes syrup steady. His arch has a blower but he doesn't normally use it. I wonder if you're blowing all your heat away from your syrup pan?

[sweetvt]

while I do not have the same exact evaporator I do have a smaller hobby sized drop flue lapierre model. What I have found over the years is due to the small surface area of these syrup pans one needs to devise a way to limit or plug the flue to syrup pans flow to be able to consistently make syrup in these smaller evaporators. Another key is having them nearly perfectly level and maintaining no more than 1" depth. I used to own a D&G drop flue 18X66 and I ended up making a valve to limit or control the flue to syrup flow while allowing me to maintain 1 inch consistently in the front pans. I currently have the Lapierre model and it does not have a valve so once I have run 40-60 gals through it I place the plug in the connection pipe between the flue pan and syrup pan and usually within a half hour (give or take) I am drawing off syrup with my rig. It does require paying attention to the bubbles and I recommend investing in a hydrometer and cup and using that along with a thermometer as last night I was drawing syrup that was testing by hydrometer as syrup but the temp needed to get to almost 221.( I do not dailey pull thermometer out to test in water) .

[JeffB]

Hi
Thanks for the advice, that's what I have been thinking after trying EVERTHING else.
In my early post I said I was gonna get piping and a valve welded in to separate the pans .On a good note I just finished and bottled 28 liters all coocentrate d in my new hybrids drop flue batch boiling very expensive pan LoL

[Marvel26]

Last year was my first with a SL 2X5 hybrid, I saw the same thing you are, the syrup pan just simmers and the middle pan goes nuts. I pretty much asked the exact same questions your are in this thread http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?25844-Getting-the-best-boil-on-a-Smokey-Lake-2X5-hybrid

In addition, if you are a one man show like I am it is best to be prepped for the day....not trying to be condescending there, I just know that if you are a recreational tapper there are distractions around the house, garage, or shack plus I don't always follow my own advice ;-) If your wood is split and you have enough for the day, your barrels are in order for fast transitions (I don't have a permanent raised tank....yet), and you have a timer set between firings you will see a huge difference, once the front pan becomes syrup and you start to draw you can adjust the draw to maintain your gradient from sap to syrup. If you have any wind this will be nearly impossible to maintain as it kills the boil which kills the gradient.

Hope this helps

Rob

[Maplebrook]

Is your evaporator in a building or exposed?
The first year I boiled on my Sportsman, it was in a 3-sided camp with the fire door to the open side. Wouldn't boil good at all in the front pan.
Consulted the old-timers, closed in the front of the camp to keep the heat in the building and the cold draft off the front of the evaporator, worked like a charm.