Sugar crystals 62.4 brix boiling

[Jnasin]

There's Very small crystals in syrup while boiling, syrup around 210 degrees with brix at 62.4
I just finished last of sap and boil finish syrup about 2 gallons syrup. Filter twice.

Never stirred the syrup while boiling.
Using digital brix scale.
Any ideas or how to get very small crystals out. Or how this happen

Or I will use the syrup for candy or sugar
Located in CT, yesterday was last of sap
Thank you

[wnybassman]

Seems as though your a bit past syrup at that temp.

[Jnasin]

Seems as though your a bit past syrup at that temp.

My water boiled at 212 + 7.1 H2o boiling temp = syrup
You can boil syrup at different tempatures depending on when your water boils.
It will depend on elevation, room tempature, weather and more.
10th of degree changes brix by .25
My tempature appears to be correct

[happy thoughts]

It sounds like you're using a refractometer??? If you're using a hydrometer then you are likely over density. Either way, you shouldn't see any crystals at all while boiling. Crystals don't usually form until the syrup cools. What you're seeing is most likely niter (sugar sand) which can still appear even after filtering. What are you using to filter? There are a few things you may be able to improve on.

[saphound]

Happy Thoughts is right..sugar crystals form later, not while boiling. And 62.4 brix at 210 is way past syrup (59). I push it at 61 cuz I like it that way, but I'm flirting with sugar crystals at 61. 62.4 will def form crystals, but not while boiling. Even when making candy at much higher temps, you don't see sugar crystals form while boiling. Don't know what you're seeing unless it's niter.

[Jnasin]

It sounds like you're using a refractometer??? If you're using a hydrometer then you are likely over density. Either way, you shouldn't see any crystals at all while boiling. Crystals don't usually form until the syrup cools. What you're seeing is most likely niter (sugar sand) which can still appear even after filtering. What are you using to filter? There are a few things you may be able to improve on.

Yes, using refractometer, (digital)
I using double gravity cone filter.

Before filter syrup, no crystals brix at 60.5
After filtering and 62.4 Brix with crystals, barely taste fine crystals
I stopped boiling before reach at 67. Brix
Like my syrup thick.

Right now it's covered and left in cool area over night.

[happy thoughts]

I still think this is sugar sand because you should not see crystals at those high temps..

Let's get the density issue straight first.
Since you're using a refractometer, don't let what was said about hot density at 59 brix confuse you. That's when measuring hot with a hydrometer.

I'm not experienced with a refractometer but still have a few questions for you to consider so we're all on the same page about density.
Do you regularly calibrate your refractometer with water? Distilled water is best. You want to make sure it's set to zero before you start
Does it automatically correct for temperature or do you need to adjust it by reading a chart?
If it autocorrects is it able to do so at the temps you're testing at? The literature that came with it should tell you.
You need to be sure you're using a calibrated instrument correctly at the appropriate temps or your reading may not be accurate.

On to filtering.
Did you boil it again after the second filtering? If so, this may be the problem. Once filtered, syrup shouldn't be heated higher than 200*F or more niter may form. More niter may form at even slightly lower temps so many people won't go past 190-195*F. If you go past these temps, the syrup should be refiltered.

The filters are wool, orlon, or paper, or some combination? disposable prefilters inside a wool or orlon cone usually work best.
If using a reusable wool or orlon filter you need to be careful not to wring or twist it when cleaning it.

Hope something in here helps! :)

[Jnasin]

1. The meter is a millwaukee digital refractometer , temp range from 32 to 175F with temperature compensation,
I recalibrate every two other readings.

2. The filtration is thick wool with synthetic disposable cloth filter.

3. The syrup was never below 185 deg/f during boil off and filtration.

4. I only tasted crystals/sugar.
Sugar is a formation of crystal by nucleation

5. I always boil off the water same temperature for past several years with no problems before.

6. I checked syrup temp and brix three hours after cooled syrup down,
Temp syrup at 87 deg/f with a 64 brix

I believe the problem is from cold wet filter. pre wash all my filters with boiling water from water left over from RO.
The filter was still wet and at room temperature around 50 deg/f , when I filtered the second time while sap was around 190 deg/f threw a cold wet filter the syrup and wet filter formed sugar crystals.

I am going to add clean water from RO and re boil and filter threw a dry filter.
As this should disolve any crystals and filtration

[wnybassman]

Since you're using a refractometer, don't let what was said about hot density at 59 brix confuse you. That's when measuring hot with a hydrometer.


I guess I don't understand that. I have never used a refractometer, but shouldn't 211º syrup ready 59 brix no matter what instrument you are using?

I still think it is an over density issue.


Yes, using refractometer, (digital)
I stopped boiling before reach at 67. Brix
Like my syrup thick.


67 brix while the syrup is still boiling seems like you are well on your way to candy.

[Super Sapper]

With the refractometer you want it to read 67 brix. You are under concentration now and need to boil more.

[happy thoughts]

64 brix at 87F is under dense. I’m glad you added that because your original post confuses me. Why are you measuring brix of 210* syrup if your refractometer range only goes to 175*F?

You're going to need to boil a whole lot more.

When you refilter don't bring the the filtered syrup above 200*F or you will create more niter. I add this again because you only mentioned the temps you never went under after filtering, not above, so not sure you read what I said before on this.

I'd like to know how you are separating tiny crystals from the syrup so you can taste the sugar in them. Isn't it possible you are just tasting the sweetness of your syrup clinging to them?

@wnybassman- refractometers return the sugar concentration as an actual reading.. or should if they are the kind that automatically compensate for temperature. They don't measure density at all but the sugar concentration itself expressed in brix.

Hydrometers don’t measure sugar concentration directly but measure specific gravity which varies by sugar concentration and temperature. Hot syrup is less dense than cold syrup so the hydrometer is less bouyant. When hot testing it will sink to the red line at proper density.

When you’re testing the density of hot syrup, you’re not so much looking for brix but the red line. This is also a kind of automatic temperature compensation. Hot syrup at the red line isn’t 59 brix. It only looks that way because it’s hot and less dense. If you’ve ever packed in glass, think of how syrup volume shrinks in the bottle as it cools. That isn’t because the brix changed but because the density did.

[wnybassman]

@wnybassman- refractometers return the sugar concentration as an actual reading.. or should if they are the kind that automatically compensate for temperature. They don't measure density at all but the sugar concentration itself expressed in brix.


Thanks, I didn't know that.

[Jnasin]

I found my problem as I stated.

Seems like we are getting off topic
Thank you

[saphound]

Quote:

...4. I only tasted crystals/sugar.
Sugar is a formation of crystal by nucleation

5. I always boil off the water same temperature for past several years with no problems before.

6. I checked syrup temp and brix three hours after cooled syrup down,
Temp syrup at 87 deg/f with a 64 brixI believe the problem is from cold wet filter. pre wash all my filters with boiling water from water left over from RO.
The filter was still wet and at room temperature around 50 deg/f , when I filtered the second time while sap was around 190 deg/f threw a cold wet filter the syrup and wet filter formed sugar crystals.

I am going to add clean water from RO and re boil and filter threw a dry filter.
As this should disolve any crystals and filtration. " End Quote


So where do you state you "found" the problem? Finding and believing are two different things. You first stated that sugar crystals were forming when boiling, which, as Happy Thoughts pointed out, is not likely and most here would agree, then you blame them on a room temperature wet filter. None of that makes any sense to me. Refractory readings say light, sugar crystals say dense. Methods very unorthodox to say the least.
1. No experienced sugar maker would filter through a dry cone filter.
2 Never heard of a cold wet filter causing sugar crystals to form if the syrup was right to begin with.
3 Most people here know how sugar crystals are formed, really...and how to make good syrup.
4 If you don't really want help, why ask for it?
5 Good luck

[happy thoughts]

Ah, forget about it saphound. We tried. Whether it was niter or sugar I'm sure refiltering helped though maybe not so much through a dry filter, lol. We'll never know and personally I don't care to get into another frustrating session like this one. You can't please all of the people all of the time and at least he said thank you.

I'm still trying to figure where the OP thinks we went off topic. Maybe when I asked how he separated those fine crystals from the syrup well enough to determine they were sweet?

Anyhoo, life goes on. Hope you had a great season! :)

[Sugarmaker]

Saphound,
I think you summarized my thoughts too.
Would like to help but too, many inconsistencies in this problem statement? Not sure we helped much?
I have made syrup a couple times and have seen most of the issues related. Usually there is a good reason for problems with syrup density.
Guess we will need more information? About the only time I see sugar crystals is on a item or tool that gets syrup on it and then is set aside to cool. Or in syrup that is too dense and you see crystals form in the syrup at a later date, maybe weeks.
Regards,
Chris

[saphound]

Yeah Happy and Sugarmaker, I'm certainly no expert, but I have learned a few things from all the help I got here. The most recent is I prob shouldn't post after a couple cocktails, lol.
But seriously jnasin, if you did find a solution to your problem, AND IT WORKED, you should share what you did to solve it, and be willing to discuss it, so that others can learn. Kinda what this site is all about. ;)