Red Maple vs Sugar Maple

[PamZ]

Hi all,
Second season, fell for sugarin' bad. Last year had 2 bona fide sugar maples (4 taps total) and did just fine for a newbie. This year, tapped 20 Red Maples, on my dads property 55 miles north of home (live in Grand Rapids area) My sugars are doing great (got the most beautiful honey colored first batch this year) but the Reds are barely dripping.
We haven't had the best weather, as you are aware, and its that much cooler 55 miles further north (Baldwin area).

I wonder though: does anyone have insite into whether or not Reds run later? My neighbor tapped his Silver Maples and had about the same run as my Sugars did last year.

Thanks all!

[happy thoughts]

I don't think they run later though some say they bud earlier than sugars so the season may be shorter. They can run inconsistently on gravity in my own experience. Some drip great, others little or nothing. Many who tap reds use vacuum to overcome this.

[Snappyssweets]

I have mostly Reds here in my wood lot. I have 80% of my reds run well on a homemade 3/16 tap and hose to buckets but they create their own vacuum so that helps. I also have 20% of my others that I tap that drip and run slow even on the 3/16. I have about seven trees on the three acres I tap of our property that will not put a drop of sap out no matter what I do.

[Jolly Acres Farm]

Welcome. I finally got our first run of sap for this year. I tried some Reds on buckets last year and never got a drop of sap from them. This year I tried a few of 3/16 gravity drops into buckets and got about 3-4 ounces total from them. In comparison I got 25 gallons from my Sugars. The interesting thing is the Reds were at 3.0% and the Sugar were at 1.5%.
I know a few that tap Reds around me and they advised that without vacuum they do poorly at best, as far as sap output.

[billyinvt]

Maybe our reds are different than yours but the vigorous ones in the 12-16 inch range give us a ton of sap. Sugar is a little lower but you gotta use whatcha got!

[Cedar Eater]

I tap exclusively reds and for gravity, it seems like the trees with their trunks in full sun way out-produce the trees with shaded trunks. I know it seems like it should be the crown that matters, but my shaded-trunk trees are tall and have their crowns above the surrounding cedars and there is still a very noticeable difference. When the sun hits the few trunks that are well exposed to it, they go from slight drips to almost trickles. I put seven tall trees that are up on an open and primarily hardwood flat on 3/16" tubing and dropped that tubing down into a gully and those trees outperformed in one day what my other 28 taps have put out in the past four weeks. I must be getting some natural vacuum.

[MidMichMaple]

Are the sugar maples yard trees or in the woods? How about the Reds? I tapped a red maple yard tree at my sister's and it has been giving quite a few gallons of sap into hanging buckets. But maybe reds don't run as well in the woods, or in the shade as someone else suggested? Just a guess.

[acerrubrum]

That seems about par for the course for Reds. Some of mine run consistently, others only give drops. Some days the Sugars do best, other days (like today) the Reds WAY outperformed the Sugars. Who knows.
I sometimes think the trees are on to us syrup makers. They constantly violate all the 'rules' on how, how much and when a Maple ought to give sap!

[Russell Lampron]

Like others have said reds are finicky on buckets. I have a clump of 4 of them at the edge of a field that run like sugars. I have a similar clump 15' into the woods and they run about half as much as those and I others close by that didn't give a drop 2 seasons in a row. There sugars in the same area and they all run good. Most of my trees are reds and all of those are on vacuum now. I got almost 1 gpt out of them yesterday and I'm sure that they ran all night. They make great tasting syrup so if you find some that will run tap them.

[PamZ]

Thanks for all the input; I checked yesterday, hoping the warm weather gave me a run, but there was nothing. I thought of something- these are mostly 'in the woods' trees. A few are closer to a clearing, and do receive more sunshine (when we have it) on their trunks. Those trees have given up to 1 gallon each over the past 2 weeks. I'm starting to wonder if it's the actual sunshine, not just the temperature, that dictates a run. I had dripping lines the day I tapped, and that day was chilly but beautifully sunny. Now, despite the warm up, not a ton of sun.
My maples, however, are in a front yard, getting all the sunshine that they can. They are putting out a gallon per day per tap, which is enough to keep my (retired) dad busy boiling down over a turkey frier. He's got the sugarin' bug, too, but on a smaller scale ;)
I will *try* to be patient. I will try to remember that I am not in charge of these trees, just along for the ride, and I will try to remember to be grateful for the sap I do get.
Thanks again for the input!
~Pam

[Michigan Maples]

13828Interesting discussion.........we tapped a couple VERY old reds we found growing in the swamp this year. They were very good producers in that we got nearly 20 gallons each from those two trees. Gonna look for more next winter when the swamp is frozen. But this made me wonder if it wasn't because they are in the swamp.

[Cedar Eater]

13828Interesting discussion.........we tapped a couple VERY old reds we found growing in the swamp this year. They were very good producers in that we got nearly 20 gallons each from those two trees. Gonna look for more next winter when the swamp is frozen. But this made me wonder if it wasn't because they are in the swamp.

What kind of other trees are in the swamp? In our cedar swamp, the reds don't do well. It is very dark and very cold under the cedar canopy. And the maples don't thaw until the day and nights get pretty warm. If the swamp is more open and has shorter trees like alders and willows, I think the maples would thaw much sooner.

[Michigan Maples]

When we realized they were out there, we realized the maples dominate everything out there. There are reds and silvers, but I'll need to get deeper into it to see exactly what we've got out there. The photo I've attached is the smaller of the two we tapped, very large old trees. The two we tapped are kind of on the western side of the swamp and likely get warmed up pretty well, nothing really in their way.

[Hannah]

13828Interesting discussion.........we tapped a couple VERY old reds we found growing in the swamp this year. They were very good producers in that we got nearly 20 gallons each from those two trees. Gonna look for more next winter when the swamp is frozen. But this made me wonder if it wasn't because they are in the swamp.

Question- I have several trees in a swamp that is much wetter than the one you show. These Maples are three times the one you show in your picture but have very smooth bark. Young sapling Maples have smooth bark but usually become rougher as they get older. My trees have just as smooth of bark as young trees, does anyone know if this would be a silver, red or something else?

[Cedar Eater]

Question- I have several trees in a swamp that is much wetter than the one you show. These Maples are three times the one you show in your picture but have very smooth bark. Young sapling Maples have smooth bark but usually become rougher as they get older. My trees have just as smooth of bark as young trees, does anyone know if this would be a silver, red or something else?

Pics of the bark from within 5' and of the whole tree from some distance back would be great, but it really seems unlikely that they would be reds, but if the bark is really extremely smooth, I would guess beech.

[Run Forest Run!]

Hannah, check out this link and see if this looks like your tree. It shows a Freeman maple which is a hybrid of a Silver and a Red. I get good tapping results from my Freeman and its bark is smooth as smooth can be.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/arboretum/thingstosee/trees/freemansmaple.shtml

[woodchuck]

First, I fully agree that you tap what you have. Im not so picky that I pass on any maple thats 16” thick and has a decent canopy. I use the term “red” or “soft" to describe most Maples that aren’t sugars. That said, these trees are very fickle in the amount of sap that they produce, but mine rarely create sugar content over 2.0 and get snotty and bud before the sugar maples. I typically pull the taps on the soft maples a few weeks before the sugar maples.

[Hannah]

Hannah, check out this link and see if this looks like your tree. It shows a Freeman maple which is a hybrid of a Silver and a Red. I get good tapping results from my Freeman and its bark is smooth as smooth can be.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/arboretum/thingstosee/trees/freemansmaple.shtml

Karen, this is exactly what it is. This is the first I have heard of them. Thank you very much!

[Russell Lampron]

Hannah, check out this link and see if this looks like your tree. It shows a Freeman maple which is a hybrid of a Silver and a Red. I get good tapping results from my Freeman and its bark is smooth as smooth can be.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/arboretum/thingstosee/trees/freemansmaple.shtml

The map is unclear as to how large the region for these trees is but I have some of those trees in my woods here in New Hampshire. I always call them smooth bark red maples. Now I know that they are Freeman maples. Thank you for the information.

[GeneralStark]

Fast growing red maples will also keep their smooth bark until they become quite large. I have seen this after crop tree release, when red maples will rapidly grow. I have seen growth rates of 1/2"/year. They are a shade intolerant tree.

[Cedar Eater]

Hannah, check out this link and see if this looks like your tree. It shows a Freeman maple which is a hybrid of a Silver and a Red. I get good tapping results from my Freeman and its bark is smooth as smooth can be.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/arboretum/thingstosee/trees/freemansmaple.shtml

Karen, thank you so much for that link. I think I may have one of those at my home property and maybe several at my deer camp. I've confirmed both reds and silvers at my deer camp, but haven't found any silvers at my home, just this one odd smooth-barked fairly large swamp maple.