Upgrade Time - What to do?

[GotSap?]

For the past six years, I've been running a Mason 2x3. I started with 60 taps and have progressively increased to over 200 this year, mostly on buckets, but with a few on natural vacuum. I plan to eventually get to around 300 taps and add vacuum to maybe half of those. My wife and I have decided to upgrade after this year, but are a little uncertain of what to do. We are looking at a H2O 18"x60", and a Leader 2'x6' (Patriot or American). My dealer is recommending the 2x6 and I fully understand their reasoning, but the cost is substantially higher. I am currently running my 2x3 (now with blower) at 9gph consistently and occasionally at 11gph. Other than the cost, I'm also worried about a few other issues. For one,having too much evaporator until I reach my tap goal. Also, size of my sugar shack is 12x16, which I think will be too small. Up until now we have made incremental improvements each year and it feels like by going with the 18x60 we could continue on that path as opposed to the 2x6, which I feel will force us to make a large jump in one offseason. Also, if I do choose the 2x6, which pans would be best, the American or Patriot. (Price is not a factor between the two.)

Thanks in advance for any input!

[maplemas]

I'd go with a 2x6 ... if I remember right I use to get about 30-35 gph evap rate on a base model arch and no preheater. .personally I would go with a raised flue ..I always worry about damaging the Flues moving the pans ... I would also go with the inferno arch if going with leader ..

[Sugarmaker]

Go with a 3 x 8 if you have the room and enjoy it!
Regards,
Chris

[Tater]

200 taps on a 2x3 at 9 gph! I'm having trouble keeping up with 50 taps at 12 gph, so my advice may be somewhat limited.

At 300 taps with some on vacuum, you'll likely have more than double the sap, but an 18x60 is only roughly 1.5 times larger. I'd go with a 2x6, because otherwise you'll be losing money on the 18x60 when you resell it to upgrade. Also, I'll bet you'll miss 6" in the evaporator more tuan you"ll miss 6" in the shack.

I'd also check with Smoky Lake and see what they'll do for you before making any decisions.

[Ghs57]

That 2x3 is doing a lot of work.

I upgraded from a 2x4 flat pan to a 2x6 this year, and the difference is substantial. Cost was also an issue, but as that say "you can pay me now, or pay me later", with the implication that the "later" will cost you more if you make smaller incremental upgrades. The extra capacity alone will give you room the expand without spending 12 hours a days boiling. When it gets tight again, you can alway add an RO. I couldn't afford to get the raised flue pan I wanted, so I may be in the "later" category myself.

As far as space, my shack is 12x15, and this arch takes up a good deal of it, but it's where I'm at for now.

[cfenton86]

13589If you are going to be at 300 taps I would defiantly go with 2x6. Your boil rate will be around 30gph +/- a few. You can get up to 500 taps on a 2x6 and it is good as low as 150 taps so defiantly won't be too much evaporator. On the price side I would like to mention A&A metal shop. It is an Amish metal shop that makes raised flue evaporators. The quality of there work is great and you can't beat there prices. I just bought one form them this year and I love it. I use to help a neighbor who boiled on a 2x6 leader and the A&A is just as good if not better. We got 2x6 raised flue system that comes with pans, arch, blanket, fire brick, all the fittings and float boxes, and 12' of stack. We also ordered a steam hood (comes with 12' of steam stack), pre-heater and the upgraded door and fire box that is all ready for blower system ( Not required to use a blower but is all set up to install one). This system was all ready to boil on and we paid $3700 for everything listed. It is working awesome and we couldn't be happier. Our boil rate is about 35gph without a blower. A&A also makes evaporators in many different sizes up to 4'x14'. Defiantly worth you looking into before you buy because you can get a full package system for half the cost of any other.

[Big_Eddy]

In my mind - there are two questions.

Is an RO something you would consider?
How solid is the 300 tap ceiling?



I have the equivalent of the 18x60 on natural draft. I have hit 20gph, but can't keep it there. 15gph is easy. For 100-150 buckets it is comfortable, but I wouldn't want to go over 200 taps. If I added a blower, perhaps 300 trees. Of course, if I added an RO, it could probably handle 3x that.

Tap counts tend to increase "on their own". I have always said I'd stick to 100 taps, as I don't sell commercially and we just tap for fun and friends. But there was no sap flowing this weekend and it was too nice to stay inside, so we tapped another 45 trees that had never been tapped before. I only had to extend my trail 100' from the furthest tree. I think we have 185 buckets out this year. So much for limits.

I'm solidly in the smaller evaporator camp, but unless you are considering an RO, I'd also recommend the 2'x6'

[bowhunter]

I agree with Big Eddy but for money I would add RO capacity. It will be less expensive if you assembly it yourself; it will allow you to go to 300 taps easily; it will reduce your wood consumption by 2/3 to 3/4 and it will not require much space in your sugar house. You can increase your capacity by 2.5 to 3 times your current rate for less than $1,000. The downside to RO is that it does add complexity, something else you have to run and watch and you do need electricity or a gasoline pump to operate the system.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

You surely need to consider what you possibly might do over the next 5 years or so. You will expand, and if you can boil faster it makes it so much easier to expand that much more. It is such a pleasure to not have to spend endless hours anchored to your arch. I am quite sure your efficiency goes up with a larger arch. In the end it is, of course, how much you can justify in your own mind.
The other idea is that if you don't spend an excessive amount, you can put that savings toward an RO in the future, and that is the real time saver, and even more importantly, it saves a tremendous amount of fuel. I find it so much easier drawing off large amounts of syrup in a short time, as I can filter and bottle large amounts while it is fresh, hot off the arch. My last boil on my 2x6 that boils off 30gph, I boiled off in 5 hours what would have taken me more than 20 hours last year.
It has allowed me to collect sap and do other things in my solo operation.

Enjoy your decision making process. That is much of the fun!

[mellondome]

Definitely 2x6. As said before, just plain it is not too much evaporator for where you are now. I started with my 2x6 on 45 buckets. It will allow you to grow past where you plan to be. As you grow your taps you can also grow the evaporator... adding hoods, preheater, RO, steamaway. With hoods, preheater, and RO, I'm now over 1200 taps and have room for more. Don't be afraid of going the used route. There are usually a good number of used 2x6 on the market after season every year as people either upgrade or realize maple isn't or them. The 2x6 does hold its value so the savings of used won't be huge, but it will be savings If you are on a budget.

Raiders flue vs Drop flue is a whole other saga. Mainly users preference. I like raised. No flues to hit with wood while firing and I can et the pan liquid levels independent of each other.

[GotSap?]

My biggest concern about the 2x6 (other then price), and what I mean by too much evaporator, is that I enjoy my time in the sugar shack and don't want to reduce it too much. Currently, when I collect I begin boiling right away and continue until it is gone. While I'd prefer to not boil until 11PM on work nights (I get up before 5 for work), I also don't want to wait until Saturday to boil and be done and caught up in half a day. For example, so far this year I've only brought in about 350 gallons so far. If I had an evaporator capable of 30gph, that would be very little time boiling, really just sweetening the pan. Now this will all change in the next few days if the weather holds to the forecast and we get inundated with sap. My thought process now, after reading what many have said here, is that maybe go with the smaller one, put a blower on it and get it up to 15-20gph range. Then I can continue to expand slowly (add mainlines, more taps, vaccuum), and when I'm tapped out and maxing the evap, add RO.

I also should clarify that "I" is really the wrong word. My wife and two sons are just as involved in this as I am and very rarely is any one of us doing anything alone.

The input on here has been very helpful, and please keep it coming.

Thanks again!

[smokeyamber]

My shack is only 8x12 and fits a 2x5... a 2x6 should fit yours no problem and is a more standard size. To keep costs down you could look for a used arch and then get a set of pans from Smokey Lake, his stuff is excellent ! :lol: I have a 2x5 pan from him with a float that has made my small operation sooo much more relaxing ! Go for a flue pan for sure and then as others have said you can increase slowly with preheater, hood, and RO. Of course if you have more than 300 tapable trees...there is always the 2'x8's ... :o

[Ghs57]

If I had an evaporator capable of 30gph, that would be very little time boiling, really just sweetening the pan.

My fear also, but I found it only took one boil of about 100 gals or so to sweeten the pan. Subsequent boils have been about 50 gals each, and I was able to draw off a few gals each time. You have twice as many taps, so it would seem you would be boiling regularly. I've collected 330 gals since 2/21, and have about 50 in the head tank right now, and some in the tote. We just had a dry spell here, but will be at it this afternoon.

I would not go back based upon the results I have had so far. It also seems to be much more efficient on wood. I'm boiling much more sap, faster, with the same quantity of fuel.

All this aside, you have to do what's right for you. Sounds like you have a good team effort there, and preserving that may be your priority.

[GotSap?]

My fear also, but I found it only took one boil of about 100 gals or so to sweeten the pan. Subsequent boils have been about 50 gals each, and I was able to draw off a few gals each time. You have twice as many taps, so it would seem you would be boiling regularly. I've collected 330 gals since 2/21, and have about 50 in the head tank right now, and some in the tote. We just had a dry spell here, but will be at it this afternoon.

I would not go back based upon the results I have had so far. It also seems to be much more efficient on wood. I'm boiling much more sap, faster, with the same quantity of fuel.

All this aside, you have to do what's right for you. Sounds like you have a good team effort there, and preserving that may be your priority.

This is very helpful, thank you! It's amazing how much flip flopping I keep doing over this!

[motowbrowne]

I'd highly recommend a 2x8. They only cost a little more than a 2x6 and have a decent amount more capacity. Don't worry about having too much evaporator. You can always put less wood in and just idle along, or put bigger chunks in. I personally wouldn't want to run 300 on a 2x6. I run 420 on a 2x10 with an 8' flue pan, and sometimes I can't keep up.

[boondocker]

I would go with the 2x6. I also looked at a H2O , well I looked at everything out there. Leader to me was way over priced, and didn't come with everything I wanted. My local dealer sells leader and CDL so after I did some more research I went with a CDL. Not only was my setup almost 3k cheaper then a leader but It come with all the stack, a roof jackand a rain cover for the stack. But it was promised to me 3 months earlier then leaders projected delivery date, and It ended up coming 2 1/2 weeks early. I love it, the fit and finish is perfect, and it boils at what they said the rate was if no a little better. If I was to do it over again I would go with a 3X8 instead of a 2 1/2X8 and I would look harder at sunrise metel. There stuff looks awesome and from what I have heard boils like crazy.

[BAP]

I have a 20"x60" Maple Pro with drop flue rear pan. I have 190 taps with 73 on 3/16" natural vacuum and the rest on a shurflo pump. When it ran good last week and was all I could do to handle the sap. The sugar house I have was built by the previous owner of my house and is about 7.5' x 11.5' inside. It is tight and I would like to expand it some before upgrading myself. With 200 taps and potential for more, I would go with a 2x6 now and you could improve it's efficiency latter by adding a steam hood with pre-heater. With your 12x16 sugarhouse I would think a 2x6 would fit in there nicely. I would look at a Sunrise Metals evaporator as they are cheaper and good quality.

[n8hutch]

Go with the 2x6. It's going to hold its value much better than the smaller rigs & the extra boiling capacity will make boiling much more pleasurable. I am running 400 taps at the moment on a 2.5x8 and it is none too big.if I get my vac pump and the 150 taps on that going I am going to wish I went bigger myself.

[Russell Lampron]

Another vote for the 2x6. When I got mine I was thinking that I would max out at 250 taps. I had over 300 taps before I even put sap to the evaporator for the first time. My evaporator room is 12x14 and the 2x6 fits with a little room to spare. My tap count now is at 800, 700 on vacuum and my RO is now too small. I could probably double my tap count with trees in my own woods and will when I get a bigger RO.

[wiam]

I vote for the 2x6. I just got pans from Thor. Very happy. About half of Leader's price.

[Tappy Sap Master]

2x6 here! Its the perfect size rig. I have a 12x14 shack & it works for me.

[maple marc]

I moved up from a 2x4 to a 2x6. The gph improvement was dramatic (from 18 to 30), but equally important was the improvement in efficiency and ease of use. In my experience, smaller units are more finicky....they don't have the even sap flow of larger evaporators. With the 2x6 I think you will have a much easier time with even draws--more even temperatures in the syrup pan, as well as more even stack temperatures. Bigger evaporators are much more efficient in their wood consumption.

So I would save my nickels and dimes and go big. You will be much happier in the long run.

Marc

[Big_Eddy]

This discussion from last year may help with your decision. It was focussed on flat pans and batch boils, but the same principles apply

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?24023-Evaporator-Sizing-Math&p=260736#post260736

[RollinsOrchards]

I don't see any advantage in upgrading from a 2' by 3' to a 18" by 60"

2*3 = 6 square feet

1.5*5 = 7.5 square feet

If my math is right, I believe that the amount of sap you would boil in an hour on the 2x3 would take you 48 minutes on the 18x60. Not a big improvement. So a 5 hour boiling day would only take you 4 hours instead. my guess is that you spend roughly 100 hours a year boiling with the current setup. This would reduce it to 80 hours with the current number of taps, and if you increase to 300 taps bring you to 120 hours feeding the stove. Vacuum will increase that a bit.

The 2x6 would be twice the evaporator that the 2x3 is, cutting your time in half. 100 hours boiling this year would be 50 hours with the 2x6. Increasing to 300 taps would be 75 hours.

I guess you will have to decide for yourself how many thousands your 20 to 55 hours a year is worth.