Newbie 3/16 questions

[Maple Time]

Hi all,

This is my first year tapping my own trees, I'm using buckets this year. I'm glad I found this site and the wealth of info you all have. After reading a lot about it on here I'm thinking about going to 3/16 tube next year. I think I should have the required elevation drop but I am wondering if anyone has an easy way to measure that. Also I see that you should not have any vent in your line, does this mean the collection tank needs to be air tight as well and if so how do you get your tubing into the collection tank? Thanks for the help.

[rhwells2003]

if you plan on doing 3/16 with natural vacuum then no your tank doesn't need to be air tight. Correct me if I'm wrong but your basically using a syphon in your tubing, and gravity pulling the sap down. So you should be fine just letting the ends of your 3/16 drop into your tank, and aslong as your don't have any leaks at the top of your system that'll break your syphon.

[optionguru]

That's right, no problem where it goes into the holding tank just keep the upper section free of leaks. As far as the drop, 30' is ideal but I have a run that drops about 15 feet and I still get about 13" of vacuum. My longer runs are getting about 20" of vacuum. Any vacuum is better than no vacuum.

[Treehouse]

I switched to 3/16 this year. I took a small level up to the top of the run, held it level on the tree where the tubing was and sighted to a spot on the tree by my collection tank. Then just grab a tape measure and go from that spot on the tree down. My collection tank is a 150 quart Igloo cooler. Best thing I ever did. 13 taps, about 3/4 full on a good day.

[BlueberryHill]

Yeah, yo do not want your gathering tank to be sealed. You want the sap to be able to drop freely out of the end of the line into your tank. Also, you want the line to end near the top of your tank. If the line goes to the bottom of your tank, then once sap gets above the end of your line it will slow things down. You will love the 3/16 results.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/CST-berger-17-623-Internal-Eye-Piece/dp/B000KEQ47E/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1457119673&sr=1-4&keywords=sight+levels

Or better yet, if you know someone who does road construction, ask to borrow theirs. We use them every day. You can go from tree to tree and work up and down the slope.

[peteinvermont]

I used a free app on my phone that used the GPS functionality on a topo map. You won't get measurements with tiny accuracy, but it was plenty close enough for me to judge if I had the elevation or not.

Once you set one or two up, its pretty easy to eyeball it. The confidence in that seems to come with the experience of the first couple.

[childsr2]

I have about a 150' drop on a 1/2 mile 1" pipeline with 300 taps on 5/16" lateral lines. Do you think I could replace the last 50' drop of 1" with a few 3/16" lines and generate decent vacuum? It would save quite a bit of money not having to replace all the laterals.
Thanks

[psparr]

If I remember right, no. Dr. Tim I believe addressed this somewhere. Once you up the size of the tubing uphill of the 3/16, you lose the effects of the vacuum.

[Cedar Eater]

I have about a 150' drop on a 1/2 mile 1" pipeline with 300 taps on 5/16" lateral lines. Do you think I could replace the last 50' drop of 1" with a few 3/16" lines and generate decent vacuum? It would save quite a bit of money not having to replace all the laterals.
Thanks

I'm going to state that I have no experience with 1" mainlines or 5/16" laterals, but I know a little about suction lines and siphoning and something tells me that replacing the 1" mainline with multiple 3/16" lines first will gain you more than replacing the laterals. In general, the more volume that your vacuum has to pull against, the less effective it will be. The volume in a 1" line per foot is 10 times the volume of 5/16" line per foot. Maybe replace the top 100 ft of drop in the mainline with 3/16" to your laterals, paying attention to how many taps are feeding into each 3/16" vacuum line. Then, when your laterals reach end-of-life, replace them with 3/16".

[Maple Time]

Thanks for the help and info, I'm sure I will have many more questions as my little hobby grows. It sure is fun and rewarding.

[childsr2]

Thanks Cedar,
You are probably right, too much dead volume. Perhaps running 5/16" all the way down the hill would be better. I was reading that 22 taps on 3/16" gave good vacuum and flow. Adjusting for the difference in volume that would be about 60 taps on 5/16". Replacing the 1" with five 5/16" lines should carry 300 taps. Obviously 3/16" would be better, but 5/16" would be much cheaper. Perhaps I'll try one line next year.
The season is about to start in northern Vermont. Time to go to work.
Rich

[Cedar Eater]

I'm not sure that will work, childsr2. I read that 5/16 is not good for inducing natural vacuum because the diameter of the tube just doesn't like to induce a vacuum the way that 3/16 does. It kind of makes sense. It's very easy to start a siphon with a small tube and that siphon will hold even if the tube sucks a little air. I think it has something to do with the surface tension of the water around a bubble. If you try it with a bigger tube, it's more difficult and more prone to quitting when any air gets in the line. So getting no more than about 30 taps on each 3/16 line means more lines dropping down the slope, but if that's what it takes to get natural vacuum, I think it would be worth it.

[eustis22]

after the season, how does one go about flushing and sealing the lines? I'm mulling pumping a water/bleach solution from the top down then pulling it out from the bottom with endcaps inserted into the line ends.

[Cedar Eater]

after the season, how does one go about flushing and sealing the lines? I'm mulling pumping a water/bleach solution from the top down then pulling it out from the bottom with endcaps inserted into the line ends.

I've been pondering that myself. Without a vacuum pump to suck the lines dry, 3/16" saplines are different. I wouldn't use bleach because that supposedly encourages squirrel chews.

[eustis22]

what about vinegar?

[eustis22]

Also, is there a MINIMUM elevation height 3/16 would work for?

[ronintank]

On cleaning the lines at the end of the season. Last year was my first year using the 3/16 line. The tube holds sap in the line through out the season as long as you have no leaks the line should hold sap when the trees are done running, mine did.
I mixed up some water and bleach. At the top (First tap) of each line I pulled the tap out of the tree and quickly put the tap in my water bleach solution bucket and the sap in the line sucked the bleach solution through the line. A gallon per line should purge the line of old sap.

[ronintank]

I've been pondering that myself. Without a vacuum pump to suck the lines dry, 3/16" saplines are different. I wouldn't use bleach because that supposedly encourages squirrel chews.
I mark my trees and match mark my line then start at the bottom and coil my lines up and store them in the pole barn till next season.

[Cedar Eater]

I mark my trees and match mark my line then start at the bottom and coil my lines up and store them in the pole barn till next season.

Do you remove all the drop tubes? I would think it would be like untangling Christmas lights if you left them on. Do you use some kind of spooling tool?

[Cedar Eater]

Also, is there a MINIMUM elevation height 3/16 would work for?

I read something about about a 12' change of elevation being sufficient to start a vacuum, assuming you have enough sap in the line. And any vacuum is better than none.

[ronintank]

Do you remove all the drop tubes? I would think it would be like untangling Christmas lights if you left them on. Do you use some kind of spooling tool?
I take the dropper tubes and plug them into the holders built into the tees. When I coil the line I start at the bottom and start by making about a 30 inch dia. coil and use a couple wire ties to hold the coils form then I keep working up hill till I have to add a couple more wire ties to keep it all in nice order I repeat this process until I have it all wound up. It really goes back in the wood nice. I use a pair of side cutters that I have a small rope taped to them with a loop tied to my wrist to cut the ties when re-installing in the next season. I put the rope on the cutters after digging through 2 foot of snow finding where I dropped them this year.

[Cedar Eater]

Thanks, Tim. That all sounds like good advice. I had been thinking about leaving the tubing up all year, because it was such a pain to put it up while trudging through deep snow. But I can put it up in November or December.

[Snowmad]

CE, when you say you could put it up in November or December, you mean you would install the line and tap the trees then? Is it safe to tap that early?
I am also considering 3/16 line next year. I saw some installed yesterday and it was laying in the ground and even going up slight inclines and it was still running good. He had 50 taps on it...I'm thinking that's too much but will it really matter if you go that high? Enjoying learning more about this. Buckets seem to keep getting heavier every year! :)

[Cedar Eater]

I wouldn't tap the trees that early. I would route the line and add any needed tees and droplines, change routes to pick up trees I bypassed this year, etc. I had to trudge the length of the three lines several times each in snow that was sometimes only 15" deep and other times broke through to become 24"+. I'm thinking of adding three more lines to make sure I get more sap than I need. I'll find someone who wants the excess. It would be nice to do what I can before the snows and then tap in February or whenever the time seems right. The way my land is laid out, I can't get many trees on one slope. Most of my trees are on flat ground next to a dropoff that goes down to a cedar swamp. My longest sapline only has 16 taps.

[eustis22]

I am planning to leave my lines up but have a question about breakage...if a tree falls (whether I hear it or not) or a good size branch and snaps the line, do I just mend the ends together with a connection piece or do I need to rerun the whole line?

Also...tucking the ends into the tees...I assume the spiles are removed first? does that still seal the line or is there a vacuum leak now?

[psparr]

I am planning to leave my lines up but have a question about breakage...if a tree falls (whether I hear it or not) or a good size branch and snaps the line, do I just mend the ends together with a connection piece or do I need to rerun the whole line?

Also...tucking the ends into the tees...I assume the spiles are removed first? does that still seal the line or is there a vacuum leak now?

They make a splice to repair the tubing.

The taps can be left on and put into the "cup" on the tee, hen next year just cut off the tap and install a new one.

[Cedar Eater]

They make a splice to repair the tubing.

The taps can be left on and put into the "cup" on the tee, hen next year just cut off the tap and install a new one.

Some tees don't have cups. Some have posts and some have nothing. If you cut the spout off and plug the drop line onto the post, it seals pretty good, but it won't tolerate any tug so you can't hang the line on it. If your tees don't have cups or posts, you can buy cups separately to cap your spouts.

[Snowmad]

The taps can be left on and put into the "cup" on the tee, then next year just cut off the tap and install a new one.

So why can't you re-use the tap? Forgive my lack of knowledge, I'm a bucket/spile guy.

[psparr]

So why can't you re-use the tap? Forgive my lack of knowledge, I'm a bucket/spile guy.

Contaminates on the old tap will help the tree heal itself faster. A new tap will more than pay for itself in additional sap, that is if you take into consideration selling syrup.

[Cedar Eater]

So why can't you re-use the tap? Forgive my lack of knowledge, I'm a bucket/spile guy.

Even when plastic spouts are cleaned very well, they cut down on sap production after the first season and they become brittle and prone to breaking when driven in or pulled out.

[eustis22]

Do tubing taps close up sooner or later than dropline taps? Is it good for the tree to sink another taphole when one is unproductive?

[psparr]

Do tubing taps close up sooner or later than dropline taps? Is it good for the tree to sink another taphole when one is unproductive?

They should run longer than drops into a bucket. Less exposure to the atmosphere than a tubing run.

You shouldn't re-tap the same tree. You'll run out of tappable area in a few years. You could try to redrill the same hole, but that doesn't work well.

[eustis22]

thanks, ps...Ima leave whats in there alone

CAN one "run out of tappable area"???? I have a couple of Whale sugars I love dearly that are my best producers.

[psparr]

Only if you put in too many taps or drill new holes like you were thinking of. As you work your way around the tree tapping each year, you'll eventually make it back around to the side you tapped in previous years. If you make it around too quickly, the tree will not have grown enough to give you enough good wood on top of the old tapped area.

[eustis22]

ok, I'm parse my tapping more carefully to leave room for future generations :D

Here's another query: Does the physics of 3/16 laterals mandate the be long and straight? What if I had a clump of trees, say 20 feet in diameter....what's wrong with starting around chest height, and then winding the tubing in concentric circles around the clump down to collection point, adding the drops at various layers? There's still a slope, albeit not that much of one (possibly aided by a power vac system?).

Why yes....I AM getting bucket-phobic. Why do you ask?

[psparr]

The higher you tap up the tree the less sap you'll get. So the gain in height for vacuum purposes will be offset by the height of the tap hole.

There has been discussion of digging a 30' deep well hole and dropping the 3/16 line to the bottom to achieve your vacuum.

[Cedar Eater]

ok, I'm parse my tapping more carefully to leave room for future generations :D

Here's another query: Does the physics of 3/16 laterals mandate the be long and straight? What if I had a clump of trees, say 20 feet in diameter....what's wrong with starting around chest height, and then winding the tubing in concentric circles around the clump down to collection point, adding the drops at various layers? There's still a slope, albeit not that much of one (possibly aided by a power vac system?).

Why yes....I AM getting bucket-phobic. Why do you ask?

You would just have to make sure you wound counter-clockwise since you're in the northern hemisphere and you don't want to be fighting the coriolis force of the Earth's rotation. Yes, I'm just kidding. There is no requirement to keep the line straight. Curves add a little resistance to flow, a little back pressure, but you need curves against trees (that you're not tapping) to prevent line droop if you have any long spans. Gradual sweeping curves add the least resistance, so swinging around a large tree is better than swinging around a smaller tree, but it's okay to take what you can get. If you are going to add any mechanical vacuum, it will easily overcome the flow resistance of curves in your lines. When you use slopes to add natural vacuum, you can zig and zag all over the place to pick up trees to add to the general downhill slope.

[Cedar Eater]

There has been discussion of digging a 30' deep well hole and dropping the 3/16 line to the bottom to achieve your vacuum.

:lol: Have to be a big hole to drop a 55 gallon collection barrel into.

[eustis22]

I'm planning on leaving my tubing up all year and have a couple questions: do I need to clean 3/16 or will the vacuum drain it? my taps are all seated in the their tees...is there still a vacuum? while unplugging my drops I noted several tees had shavings congregated at the uphill side..I assume I need to remove that before next years tap? Yeah, I suspect my maple tapping bit ISN'T.

Has anyone used a 12v pump with 3/16 when they DON'T have 30' of drop to foster natural vac? I'm looking to see how such a device would be hooked up. Does it run all the time?

[palmer4th]

My question with this stuff is what are people doing for taps? They don't make seasonal sons and no CV's as of yet?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I cut off and replace my taps every year. Not going to be much if any benefit to check valves on 3/16 as you aren't getting back surges you do on regular vac system. If you are set in using seasonal spouts or check valves, CDL makes 3/16 T with 5/16 drop. I have about 40% on 5/16 drop and would like to get rid of all of them as the 3/16 drop is so much nicer. Never thought I would say they after using 5/16 for so many years.

[ryebrye]

I use cv2 spouts on 3/16. I have a section of 5/16 at the end of each drop and then 3/16 to the lateral.

The trees do suck in sap when it starts to freeze even if you don't have vacuum - they get a tremendous negative pressure in the tree.

I'm in a combination vacuum + 3/16 system so it helps more than if it was just vacuum, but even in just gravity it can help in a year like this.

[can'twaitforabigrun]

Are 3/16 seasonal spouts available yet? In my opinion there is a greater range of spouts available for the 5/16 drops. Also, the 3/16 tubing I've set up stays full of sap overnight. Wouldn't the CV prevent backflow from the lateral line back into the tree at freeze up? Brandon, is there any reason you prefer the 5/16 drops? After setting up 3/16 drops and switching to 5/16, the larger ones do seem extra large and bulky.

[palmer4th]

I thought I had read using 3/16 drops can help add a bit more vacuum. To me if I was to set up 3/16 I would want all the laterals to be 3/16 just to keep it simple anyways. I would think they would make a seasonal tap soon. Until then i guess you just buy new taps every year, downside is they are more expensive then seasonal ones.

[ronintank]

I plan on using these next year.
14070
https://webstore.cdlusa.net/en/Catalog.aspx?Hi=011002003&ps=