Organic vs Natural

[PerryFamily]

Is there, or does there tend to be, a price difference on the RETAIL end of sales?

I know there is on the bulk end but not sure about the retail end.

[unc23win]

It is very similar to natural retail in my area in that each producer sets their own price some go higher while others don't.

[maple maniac65]

My neighbor charges more for his free range maple trees.

[PerryFamily]

I suppose it could also depend on where the bulk of your sales are
If you sold mostly to say a food coop or something like that you probably could get more for your syrup.

In my mind , for this product, there is literally only one difference in organic and that's defoamer. Which I e been told doesn't work as well and you actually use more of it.

I'm trying to figure out if my market would command a higher price for organic, and cover the cost of the certification

[unc23win]

I am not sure if it matters where you get certified or not, but I just sent mine in and the fee is based on gross sales and then you get reimbursed like 75% I think is was like $500 something after reimbursement it is $165 something like that. I have been using canola oil probably do use more that atmos never used it. Basically all additives into the syrup have to be certified organic. Then you have list all your cleaners and what you use them for and such. For me I am hoping it might increase my retail sales a little, but it will open up potentially 2 more bulk buyers so I will have a couple of options. I think bulk was about .15 more a pound last season so it adds up.

[GeneralStark]

I am personally unaware of a "Natural" certification for maple syrup. Am I missing something?

There is significantly more to organic certification than defoamer. I don't know how much you have looked into it but here are the basic guidelines:

http://nofavt.org/sites/default/files/uploads/docs/2014_vof_maple_guidelines.pdf

I have been debating it, and I suspect will likely go the organic route (though I don't like that they stopped letting you tap cull trees due to large bulk producers never culling) as I do think it is helpful to be certified by a second party. I do feel that you can charge a bit more for your product, but I haven't found that there are lots of customers demanding it.

For now this is the certification agency we have been working with and we will see how it works out.

http://vt.audubon.org/sites/default/files/documents/bird_friendly_maple_project_counter_card.pdf

[DrTimPerkins]

There is no "Natural" definition that I am aware of except for USDA for meat and poultry. It is simply a marketing term, and as such, is either meaningless or intended to confuse consumers into thinking it is organic.

"Organic" does have a legal definition, and to label product as "organic", the product must be certified by an agency. For maple (in the U.S.) there is no over-riding certification requirement, so the rules are left to the certifier, which is why they can vary from place to place to some degree.

Organic does mean more than simply changing defoamer, however the vast majority of maple producers could probably get certified without a great deal of effort. There are requirements for a management plan, and fairly strict requirements for tracking of production and sales, and the rules are not simply guidelines...but are actual rules which need to be followed.

Organic is one of the fasting growing segments of the maple market. The premium will b around U.S. $0.15-0.20 for 2016.

[PerryFamily]

Thanks general for the info on the other agency. I'm currently looking into Eco Cert as they have done a few in my area recently.

I'm only using the term "natural" to differentiate from organic. Not as a marketing term just to say it's not organic. I thought better than just saying "regular".

I am aware there are other differences between the two. But reall in the end, is one syrup better or different because someone may have left 3" and over brush in the woods versus chipping it? I'm my opinion no.

I do have multiple bushes so having a management plan for all of them would be a big concern for me since I don't own the land I lease it.

My current bulk buyer has told me on several occasions that they would buy all the organic syrup they could since they're customers are purchasing more and more. Most of it goes to the west coast I believe.

Like many I'm working on developing a retail market for my syrup and am simply trying to figure out if it is beneficial and if so where is the cut off point.

Thanks for the responses

[unc23win]

I knew what you meant by natural.

Having other sugar bushes that you don't own makes it a little more complicated as long as the land owner is willing to agree to help you meet the regulations its not a big deal. They are most concerned with buffer zones to avoid sprays and such. Then after getting certified you basically have to put everything you keep in your head down on paper. Most of us keep track of lots of things without writing it down it's just a formality.

[abbott]

I'm MOFGA certified (Maine.) Every year I say I'm going to drop the certification (too much hassle) but then I go through with it. As with Jared, I find cost is very reasonable after reimbursement. I also use organic canola oil to defoam. I'd say it takes about an ounce to make a hundred gallons of syrup. I don't know how that compares, but it clearly isn't a lot.

Some things to keep in mind... no taps in trees under 10"dbh, can't put two taps in until 20"dbh. All equipment needs to be lead-free. Lots of record-keeping. But really not a big deal.

The certification is nice for selling to natural food stores, but I'm not sure it helps as much for direct sales when you can tell the customer exactly what your practices are.

[PerryFamily]

Thanks Abbott and UNC. This is the kind of info I'm looking for
I totally agree about the record keeping, lots upstairs but never gets put to paper!!

[blissville maples]

don't care what anyone says all syrup is organic-- no one sprays pesticides or fertilizes the woods- nor does one single idiot walking through in a whim can say a place is or isn't organic. nor does one tap or two per tree have any influence on flavor or composition of syrup. its all a gimmick. the principal of organic Is good but no proper follow up verification of these products are actually organic exist and as I said all syrup is organic. its one more thing driving costs up and many are unable to differniate if these organic products are actually any better

[Michael Greer]

Blissful, I'll have to disagree on at least one point. There are all sorts of chemicals and herbicides that any fool can buy at the hardware store and spray anywhere without any training at all. The trees I tap are all in the Village, and all on private properties with 22 different owners. Trees along the highway are subject to automotive chemicals and defoliants used by the highway folks, and don't even get me started when there's a railroad any where nearby.
Organic certification would be impossible to achieve here in Potsdam, and may even fail outright if inspected closely enough.

[PerryFamily]

Blissville
While I tend to Agreevwith you on a few points, after looking into it a little there is a sustainably aspect that to people who buy organic products its important. And generally they are willing to pay a bit more for that product.
Michael Greer- you are correct with ones ability to use pesticides or herbicide as they will. You can buy larger quantities of round up right at tractor supply. Does it change or alter the end product? Maybe maybe not.

[wishlist]

For what its worth......Seen this at Costco the other day , certified organic 1 liter in sugar hill jug . $10.49 . They had pallets stacked 3 high.

[DrTimPerkins]

don't care what anyone says all syrup is organic--

Regardless, not all maple syrup is certified organic. Without certification, which involves a great deal of paperwork describing your operation and procedures to ensure that only allowed materials are used, and that you are complying with the rules, and that your operation is sustainable, then your syrup is not certified organic, and you will not receive any premium paid for it.

"Organic" has a regulatory meaning. "Natural" doesn't....it is simply a marketing term.

[unc23win]

I had my inspection 3-19 I'm waiting to get my certificate now I went with NOFA-NY. I must say printing off the 75 pages and starting to work my way through it was the hardest part. As I worked on it I would e-mail and ask questions and get answers. Anything in the application that they needed more info on they flagged and the inspector asked about them and clarified things.

The inspection wasn't too bad at all. The inspector asked about the buffer zones and if there was any spraying asked what crops the neighbors grow. As far as tapping guidelines he asked what my plans were and said there big concern was sustainability and that my plan met that. I told him about the tapable wood excel from Dr. Perkins and PMRC and he did not know about that. As far as the sugarhouse they want records for sap collection, washing tanks, washing ro, washing evaporator and such what soap if any is used and how much how often. Then they want to know the storage of soap, DE, and any additives. They want to know if you make non organic as well and how you keep them seperate if you do. Lastly they want samples of your labels.

It's a little more work if you make other products such as cream, candy and value added products each product has to have its own product profile listing additives and of course if you want to market it as organic all additives have to be organic certified. Right now I am only producing syrup hoping to add other products all organic as well this way I won't have to change over or change recipes I'll be starting organic.

[abbott]

don't care what anyone says all syrup is organic-- no one sprays pesticides or fertilizes the woods- nor does one single idiot walking through in a whim can say a place is or isn't organic. nor does one tap or two per tree have any influence on flavor or composition of syrup. its all a gimmick. the principal of organic Is good but no proper follow up verification of these products are actually organic exist and as I said all syrup is organic. its one more thing driving costs up and many are unable to differniate if these organic products are actually any better

First, why the vitriol? Of course there are problems with the organic certification process, but the trouble is that the more verification that is done to ensure the purity of the product, the more the cost will be driven up. I have many concerns about the process and I often think about dropping the certification, but in the end I find that the minimal costs involved are worth it to put a product out there that has at least a small level of independent verification.

There are two key aspects of the syrup that you need to consider. First is the defoamer. Is it organic? Is it petroleum based? Second is sap/syrup contact surfaces, specifically with consideration to lead contamination. If I were to drop my organic certification I would still follow organic standards on these issues. As much as I think the taps/tree requirements are stupid, I wouldn't deviate much from them even if I could, especially since I run vacuum.

But the biggest question I ask you, blissful, is "Do you use fossil fuels as an additive in your maple syrup?" Because that's what most commercial defoamers are. Maybe you don't use them, but to say that syrup is organic even if it has that in it is completely missing the point of what organic is. And to tell a customer that your syrup is organic when it has that in it is unethical. That's exactly what they are trying to avoid!

I see no reason why all maple syrup couldn't be organic. We could have all lead free equipment and all organic defoamers and make all organic syrup. Certification shouldn't be necessary, all producers should have a moral compass just as strong as yours and mine. The cost of production for large maple farms would not skyrocket when they went organic, like it might for vegetable farms.

BUT, you and I and everyone else were raised on food that has fossil fuel based additives is it - they are extremely pervasive. And since the negative effects are cumulative and not readily apparent, most people don't care if their syrup (or candy bar or chips) has a few parts per million of poison in it. Probably no worse than standing around sniffing woodsplitter fumes. It takes a long time (if ever) to determine which of these things really are harmless and which are causing cancer.

If your solution is to produce a product "organically" but not "Certified Organic" then that's fine. Especially if you can explain the difference in defoamers to your customer. I know, you already said that you don't care what anyone else says. But maybe someone else out there cares.

[abbott]

I had my inspection 3-19 I'm waiting to get my certificate now I went with NOFA-NY. I must say printing off the 75 pages and starting to work my way through it was the hardest part.

I hope 75 pages wasn't all paperwork to fill out, but included the guidelines!

The first one is definitely the hardest. In subsequent years, when you're just updating for any changes it's pretty easy. As long as you've actually been keeping records!


In my mind , for this product, there is literally only one difference in organic and that's defoamer. Which I've been told doesn't work as well and you actually use more of it.

I've been trying to keep track of this... I believe I use about 1 oz of canola oil per 100 gallons of syrup. Less early on, but more later. I'm suspicious that it's quite a bit higher at the tail end of most years, maybe double that for the last 5% of the syrup. I'm boiling raw sap, it would probably change with RO.

[unc23win]

I hope 75 pages wasn't all paperwork to fill out, but included the guidelines!

The first one is definitely the hardest. In subsequent years, when you're just updating for any changes it's pretty easy. As long as you've actually been keeping records!

Right you are it was just a shocker when you hit print and it really is 75 pages of information I think actual application was about 15 pages. Part of it was for other products.

Most of us are 80-90% organic, it's that other 10-20% (which might be difficult) that makes you certified and the certification is what is required to market your syrup that way.

You can switch to atmos at the end of the season and sell that syrup as non organic but you have to have seperate storage and records for it. I believe Dr. Perkins said in a post some time ago that PMRC does that. It's an added step.

[blissville maples]

well I get fed up with the organic pitch, and not just maple by the way. theres too many people being told one thing, paying more for it ( like milk, and other foods) and little or no difference from one to the other. I mean the principal is great- no pesticides, no chemicals, etc. however in the maple industry its quite different. I totally agree that we're eating poisin 24/7 and it sickens to the point to where my blood boils. so much for trusting anyone.

first thing you need to know I do not sell my syrup as organic and have no desire to, but all I would have to do is use different defoamer if I wanted to, and tap per guidelines. the syrup would be identical to what im making now no difference. I don't see it logical that safflower oil or whatever they suggest is making syrup any less harmful for you, there is so little being used especially the beginning of the season that I don't think it would make any difference, well except for our little minds. the idea sounds great and most people buy it, not even realizing that we're not dumping gallons of defomer into our pans, and form what I usually see the defoamer becomes caked into the darker foam and on the sides of pans. then it has to pass thru a filter press which who knows how much that may remove.
at any rate I get sick of gimmicks and they are everywhere these days, this is all a way to drive the cost of syrup up which I think its high enough (bulk prices could be higher) but no one, or let me rephrase that no-one making an average salary is buying a quart of syrup at 18.99. if the price were more affordable I think more people would be using it and the market and demand would increase

[PerryFamily]

A small packer here who I sell a small amount of bulk to has told me several times, the market trend for their customers is heading towards more certified organic than regular. They have said they would buy all the organic syrup they could. There must be a demand / market for it.

At my size right now going organic would be slightly above break even.

Record keeping and Lot numbers
organic or not how are small and mid sized producers keeping records? Have some come up with a daily form? If so what kind of information is required by organic standards?
Also how are people keeping tracl ( lot #) of their product?

[GeneralStark]

There is indeed a market for it and it does demand a higher price in most cases. All the packers say the same thing.

[blissville maples]

no doubt is market higher prices- but its all a gimmick- Is no difference between the 2, just take the money and sshhhh I guess (that's America)

[abbott]

Record keeping and Lot numbers
organic or not how are small and mid sized producers keeping records? Have some come up with a daily form? If so what kind of information is required by organic standards?
Also how are people keeping tracl ( lot #) of their product?

I'm going to try attaching a pic of my labeling below. This is exactly what I give to MOFGA to keep on file. In addition I keep a log (just by hand on paper) recording the date of boiling, and what lots were produced (each lot is a five gallon jug, or a direct-to-retail container bottling). At the end of the season I put that info into a spreadsheet. I use the spreadsheet to record the date of rebottling for each five gallon jug, as well as the retail containers that were filled from each jug. If you are interested in seeing that, email me.

14184

MOFGA wants me to track how much sap I boil and how much syrup I make. They also want me to track the syrup I sell. At the end of the calendar year i do an inventory of what I have left and do a "mass balance" sheet to show that all of my syrup is accounted for. I'm usually off slightly, as it is very hard not to miss something, but this seems to be ok as long as I am close. This ties in with the sales records I keep for taxes, so it is not a big deal.

[abbott]

no doubt is market higher prices- but its all a gimmick- Is no difference between the 2, just take the money and sshhhh I guess (that's America)

Minimal differences, but not no difference. The tiny amount of defoamer or lead that makes it into the final product might not matter to you. And it might not matter to a person's long term health. But it also might affect health and that's why it does matter to many consumers. And that's why they will pay more. Does it matter as much as the difference between organically grown fruit and conventionally grown fruit? No. But then again, the price difference isn't as much either. I don't charge more because my syrup is certified... I started getting certified as a way to get my foot in the door when I was starting out. This before I got into the eat local/ eat organic trend myself. And the biggest reason I consider dropping my certification is that I see how easy it would be to cheat the system.

[PerryFamily]

Great Abbot that's great info!

[unc23win]

no doubt is market higher prices- but its all a gimmick- Is no difference between the 2, just take the money and sshhhh I guess (that's America)

Each producer can choose their own retail price and there is already a HUGE range in retail prices and producers are free to set their own price for their product. Some prices are set by a niche of some sort while others are set by geographic location and some are based on how the products are marketed.

As General said packers are in some cases paying more for organic so that could increase your bulk price.

[blissville maples]

Minimal differences, but not no difference. The tiny amount of defoamer or lead that makes it into the final product might not matter to you. And it might not matter to a person's long term health. But it also might affect health and that's why it does matter to many consumers. And that's why they will pay more. Does it matter as much as the difference between organically grown fruit and conventionally grown fruit? No. But then again, the price difference isn't as much either. I don't charge more because my syrup is certified... I started getting certified as a way to get my foot in the door when I was starting out. This before I got into the eat local/ eat organic trend myself. And the biggest reason I consider dropping my certification is that I see how easy it would be to cheat the system.

exactly I know organic milkers who have cheated the system and not followed rules, so whose standing behind these organicproducts ensuring they are....no one!!

[Squaredeal]

"exactly I know organic milkers who have cheated the system and not followed rules, so whose standing behind these organic products ensuring they are....no one!!"

Tell that to the producers that were suspended or denied organic certification by Vermont Organic Farmers (certifying agency) after random testing showed that they were using Atmos. And by the way, the test determines the presence of propyl gallate (an additive in Atmos) that is a suspected carcinogen.

Certifying agencies and the USDA take organic label claims very seriously.

[DrTimPerkins]

exactly I know organic milkers who have cheated the system and not followed rules, so whose standing behind these organicproducts ensuring they are....no one!!

The logical extension to that line of reasoning is that we should not bother registering cars or requiring a driver's license because some people choose to speed.

[southfork]

There is no reason to complain about the organic maple syrup label or process. Absolutely nobody is making anyone produce it, buy it, pack it, or consume it.