Rookie question

[eye8astonie]

Okay, I'm going to break down and ask... Now mind you, I once had to be able to identify 50 types of trees in order to pass my college Biology class, but it's been a while...

We're tapping for the first time, and not 100% sure which trees are maples since they don't have the leaves on. I know what maple bark looks like, but there seem to be a few trees that look like maples but also look a little different from the rest.

My question is, are there any other trees that, if tapped, will produce sap? Or will I know if I tap a non-maple simply because it won't run?

I just don't want to mix non-maple "sap" with the good stuff.

Go ahead, laugh, I don't blame you, but I had to ask!! :)
Duane
Rookie in Central New York

[maplehound]

The only dumb qustion is the one that isn't asked.
Most trees don't run like a maple. So if you tap atree and it is driping sap it most likely is a maple tree. Evn those of us that have been around for many years still have trouble identifing trees at times. Couple years ago I was in the woods with our state forester, he and I argued over weather a tree was a sugar maple or not. It happened to be one that I had tapped and gat alot of sap out of it for several years. I laughed at him but he walked away still looking back at it wondering for sure.

[pennslytucky]

i can tell exactly which trees are sugars, reds or other.

the sugars have a green spot right in the middle... reds have a red spot, and the others have no spot... :)

[eye8astonie]

Thanks, I'll remember that! That may be only on PA (home of the toothbrush) maples though... I haven't seen any like that in New York yet! :)

[eye8astonie]

And thanks, Maplehound! That makes me feel a lot better! I was afraid I'd ruin a whole week's worth of sap by pouring something else in with it. If non-maples don't run, then I won't worry about it!

Thanks,
Duane

[Fred Henderson]

Sometimes a Basswood or Butternut will look like a maple. In years gone by the really old timers would tap 1 or 2 Butternuts just to change the taste a little in a bush 500 taps or more.

[tapper]

My property is polluted with red maples. I knew that from the start and looked long and hard to find sugars here. It took 5 years before I finally found a few and the largest one was just a few hundred feet from my house. I found a few more in a stream bottom followed the stream onto adjoining property and they are all over the place. Last spring before any trees had leaves the sugars all had yellow flowers in them that made them very easy to find.

[mountainvan]

Other than red and sugar maples I hung a bucket on an oak once, bark sure looked like sugar maple. No sap half the season, moved the bucket to another tree, got sap. Leaves came out and I saw it was an oak. Taphole healed very quickly by the way. I've put hardware in birch trees in april and they gushed sap. Other than that I've seen ash tapped, no sap.

[tapper]

This time of the year I learned the difference in the crowns. The ends of the branches tell the story. Sugars are fine and spindley and go off in many directions. Reds are shorter more blunt and usually have that red bud but not always. Oaks are larger and really blunt. I have been thrown off by the bark on oaks many times take one look at the crown and there you have it.

[ennismaple]

If I remember my tree ID right from over 15 years ago, only maples and ash have an opposite bud arrangement. That means that all the buds are paired on either side of the twig. If it's an alternate (staggered) bud arrangement it's not a maple. Of course, this applies to the trees we've got here in Ontario. I'm not sure if you've got other species in your neck of the woods that may also have paired buds.

I can't help you tell the differnce between sugar, red and soft maples - we've only got the one kind so I didn't have to learn how to tell maples apart!

Hope this helps.

[MaplePancakeMan]

has anyone made White Paper Birch syrup? I've read up on it, you tap them later than maples and each tree produces about 1 gallon of sap a day and it must be boiled down immediately and finished on something that you can control the heat because it scorches easily I really want to try it it apparently goes for 12 bucks per 8oz or something like that i know its big in alaska its like a 60-1 ratio though so you'd need a lot of trees to produce it and they only need to be approx 6-8" diameter

[royalmaple]

Here is a couple of things to look at which might help.

I first look at the bark, but in a mixed wood lot I tend to walk with my head up looking in the canopy of the trees. The oaks will usually stand right out, to me they look wirey, fewer main branches coming off the main stem and look more rugged. The maples tend to be more bushy and if you look at the tops they are more delicate looking.

But if you run into an elm tree the bark can throw you but you can try to see the buds and they are long and narrow, kinda like a coccoon twisted up really tight. Beech will have similar bark as young red maples but if you look at the tops they too will look like a red maple, but look at the buds and you'll see they too have tightly rolled up buds like the elm.

Larger sugar maples will also have a unique feature at the tip of the branches you'll see little hairs hanging down from the ends of the branches. usually they are in small clusters.

Just a few things that help me but sometimes you have to really look hard and several times to figure some of the tricky ones out. If you drill an oak you should smell it too and you'll know you got the wrong one.

[John Burton]

Iwould agree the difference is in the crown. look also how the branches are attached to the trunk poplar trees look simaler in the but but in the crown the branches look different.the sme with oak and ash the way the branches attach to the trunk are different. my recomendation is to pick up a small tree guide there are usually good pictures in them. in fact i used to have one that covered trees, plants and actually had animal track information all in a pocket sied package. came in real handy when I was a young teen learing my way around.

[HanginAround]

If they have green needles, don't tap them!

This summer, walk your woods and mark your trees with trail ribbon or tree paint, makes it easier until you can tell them by eye better. About the only ones I mistake once in a while are ash, maybe a few others if there is some distance and I'm trying to tell by the bark. Even the ash, once you've seen a few, you can tell they're not maple.

[maple flats]

This time of year it is fairly easy. 1st- only maples have opposing branches, all maples. This does not mean every branch has one opposite but it did as the tree developed, things happen the one often but if any branches on a hardwood tree are opposite it is maple. Now the next to identify is the buds. Only sugar maples have a sharp point to the bud, all other maple buds are either rounded or blunt. To get sugarmaples look for some opposing branches especially in the smaller branches where less damage would have killed one side bud and then look for pointed buds. The other maples are not as easy to identify but the new North American Maplke Syrup Producers Manual has good pictures to help. Good luck!
Dave

[Dave Y]

This is how I identify maples this time of the year. I know most reds will have red buds , the crowns have a smooth silver bark.The trunks of mature trees are often shaggy with the plate curling on the ends. Sugar maples are similar only there crowns are not smooth and silver. The bark is rough and the plales curl on the edges not the ends, also the plates are not as thick as reds. some thing else that helps is a life time in the woods. Be a student of the natural world.

[HanginAround]

I walked a friend's trees with him the other day and wanted to look at some twigs and buds, but they all seem to be 40' off the ground LOL. I need a very tall ladder with snowshoes on it.

[Dave Y]

You Will get a crook in your neck looking at the crowns that why I look at trunks.

[Pete33Vt]

MaplePancakeMan, Yes people are making birch syrup out there. Go through some of the old post and you will find a bunch of info. Not sure which ones actally but its in here some where.

[maple flats]

A good pair of binoculars helps to see the twigs and buds but they must be good ones or everything will blend in and be difficult to focus and pick out the detail you need. A few years ago I went around and actually tied surveyors ribbon on the sugars. to help plan out my tubing layout. After you have identified several sugars you will be able to do it from the branch growth characteristics. I also use the trunk growth and bark color and plate character. If you identify a sugar study it a little, the trunk will give a "muscular" appearance too, but you should identify several of these characteristics on each tree and not just one because if you did one could fool you unless the opposing branches, pointed bud was the identifier you used. With time you will find yourself driving down the road and even at 40-45 mph you will be identifing sugars with amazing accuracy.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think birch syrup is somewhere around 100 to 1 ratio.

[Daren]

Ennis and flats are right on the money for the best way to identify the maples out there. You do not need binocs to see them either. Just take a quick look up and let your eye wander down the terminal branches and watch the "stem" pattern. If the sticks are paired (opposite each other) they are maples. Oaks and popple (as well as elm and all the birches and beaches) are "staggered" (alternate). Those are the only ones that most people get confused looking at the trunk alone and have tapped in the past. As for Ash, they have distinctive bark on the trunk and will probably not be confusing when you look at them. The only problem with that is if you only look up. They have an "opposite" look to them, but the terminal branches look darker and more "beefy". The basswood is a very dark trunk and usually does not get to the size of a maple. Never heard anyone with a problem staying away from tapping those. A few hours with a forester in your woodlot goes a long way when getting used to identifying trees.

[eye8astonie]

Wow, thanks for all the advice guys! That will help a lot! I should have said before that we know we have mostly reds, but from what I've read they will work, so we're using what we've got!

It will also be helpful to look at them once the leaves come out. Last fall, we hadn't even thought about doing syrup yet, so we didn't identify trees when it was easy. The opposing branches sounds like the best way to identify them, and I'm looking forward to taking a walk tonight to check that out.

Thanks again! What a great group!
Duane

[KenWP]

I had problems telling maple trees from non maples this summer untill I thought to check the leaves. I only have 2 trees that are sugar maples and the rest are what ever kind of maple grows green bark and has leaves like my red maple does. They also have buds like the silver maples on some trees and buds like the red maple on others. I have 6 huge silver maples that I am counting on for some sap also. Am not investing much in equipment untill I am sure that I will get sap thats useable.

[Mackdaddy]

I was always told that the bud of a sugar maple is long, slender, brownish and comes to a point. While the reds and silvers are more of a short, blunt, redish, round point. Anybody also heard the same?

[Haynes Forest Products]

You woulnt be the first to tap a tree and then look up and see its a Oak with alot of mose on it

[Cardigan99]

KenWP. those with the green bark are probably striped maples. We've got them here but they don't get so big (big trunk is prob 5 - 6 inches max). I look for the bark first. Not the color because i've seen them almost black thru almost white, but the texture. After that I'm looking at the crowns. Reds have spindley branch tips and the sugars are more fan-ish (doesn't quite sound right, but if you look enough you know what I mean)


Todd

[benchmark]

most the time around here the dead leaves on the lower branches hang on all winter.

Buds are long and slender usually in groups of three rather then the soft maple that are ball shaped and red.

Branches on the hard maple usually swoop downward then up rather the the soft which stretch upward.;)

[sugarnut]

here is a link to some ID material. maybe the descriptions and sketches will help.


http://www.massmaple.org/treeID.html

[Mackdaddy]

Sugarnut, love the pics of your set up, great innovation!

And thanks for the link!

[maple flats]

For identification you will not need to study each tree. After you have examined several of each age class you will be able to go by bark, branch structure (shape), and general appearance. This being said I will never tell you I have never mis identified a maple or had to check further but with experience you will get surprisingly fast and accurate. As someone else said in an earlier post, you do not need to be overly concerned about an occasional error because others will not flow the sap at this time of year. Another thing to realize that differs with a maple is that it carries the sap thru the entire trunk, other trees only have sap in the cambium layer. If you tapped a wrong variety tree while sap was flowing and only see a slight ooze just under the bark it is not a maple. The maple will put out sap from anywhere into the trunk as long as it is healthy wood and not compartmentalized. Compartmentalizing is when a maple senses a loss of sap and seals off that area to preserve its sap. The tree does this after the season during the healing process from the tap hole. If you were to cut down a perviously tapped maple tree and saw it into lumber you will see the healed taphole and a darkened area around each old taphole. To see an example of this visit the NYS fair, maple booth. The cabinets are faced with tap hole maple boards.

[sugarnut]

i was tapping in the dark on my second year and thought i knew the specific tree i wanted to tap and needed no light. i ended up tapping a young red oak that looked like a red maple. last year, i ended up tapping a hickory tree and wondering why the tree was dry, lol.

[Clan Delaney]

i was tapping in the dark on my second year and thought i knew the specific tree i wanted to tap and needed no light. i ended up tapping a young red oak that looked like a red maple. last year, i ended up tapping a hickory tree and wondering why the tree was dry, lol.

Tapping in the dark... "What the?!? This is the third bit I've broken on this tree! What gives? Oh. It's a rock."

Still at $4 a gallon bulk, I'd tap the rock anyway just to be sure.

[Haynes Forest Products]

You have never heard of ROCK MAPLE lets hit the books boys

[Beweller]

Ennis,

MAD DOG! Maple. Ash, Dogwood. The three species that are oppositely branched.

[sugarnut]

MAD Horse...Maple, Ash, Dogwood and Horse Chestnut. ;)