80 taps to 45,000 in 1 year

[jeugster]

So I have this wild idea...

My family has a 900 acre hilly forest of sugar maple in Northern Wisconsin. We figure at 50+ taps per acre it can support 45,000 taps to start.

So I guess my question is, building a top tier production facility from the ground up with all possible improvements in efficiency, what range of startup cost would you expect for an operation of this size? What is the cost per gallon produced for the top facilities already in production?

Thanks for any input. We did around 80 taps last year as a family, all on 5/16 tubing down a slope to drums, then siphoned into a 3x5 flat plan on a concrete block arch. Fuel was tree tops from some recent sustainable forestry. We liked the syrup so much we decided to scale up!

Jon E

[jmayerl]

Would cost you north of 1 million.....if you have that kind of cash sitting around to invest in maple, you would be much better off just investing it.

[jeugster]

You don't like the outlook of the industry as a whole?

So, you wouldn't get into syrup if you weren't already... what would you do with 1 million+ instead? Index ETFs?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Depends on how you set it up. Around $ 3 to $ 3.50 per tap on 3/16 if you have a lot of slope with current price of 3/16 tubing. Plenty of good used larger evaporators out there at a good price. You don't have to start out with start of art everything.

[jeugster]

Cool thanks for the info. We do have a lot of slope. Is 3/16 with some active vacuum sort of the standard now?

The high sap sugar concentration RO's sound like they could be disruptive as well. Are those worth looking into?

I should mention we are planning based on bulk prices, but hope to transition to 100% retail over time.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

3/16 creates it's own natural vacuum and doesn't require a vacuum pump.

[Maple Man 85]

Not to be a downer but have you considered the size of investment versus the cost of failure due to a poor crop or lower prices of selling bulk? I applaud your enthusiasm however the manpower required run this size of operation along with initial capital investment has a fair probability of bankruptcy. Growth is good but growth of this size may not feasible given the expected time frame unless there's an army of cheap labor in your back pocket.

Maple Man 85

[Sugarmaker]

Jon,
Wow! That is a big jump in scope. You would have one of the larger operations in the country.
I would call Leader, D&G, Lapierre, CDL and several other of the big companies and have them walk the property and give you some numbers.
I think I would call Patterson's in Pa they are of similar size or larger. Go visit them now while production is in full swing. Spend a week making syrup with them.
Also call Glen Goodrich Cabot Vermont and see what he says.
I will throw out a guess on cost 1.5 million to do it right. 2 years to get it set up.
20,000 gallons of syrup at a bulk price of maybe $30/ gallon gets you to an approx 2.5 year pay back.
You might need a full time crew of 5+???
Interesting project! Let us know your progress.
Regards,
Chris

[maple flats]

45,000 taps if done right, in a decent year can produce over 22,500 gal of syrup, that is a lot for anyone to retail. But, if you don't think big you will never get there.

[Cedar Eater]

That sounds really interesting. I'm no expert at sugaring, but I know a thing or two about projects and I think I would do the initial tubing for that many taps in four yearly phases because of the learning curves involved and because when it comes time to replace tubing, you won't want to be doing it for the entire bush.

[Cody]

Wow,what a problem to have.My mind is just racing with ideas.Best of luck.A lot of smart people in this forum that will point you in right direction. Did I tell you I love the north woods:cool:

[sapmaple]

I would say that $30 gal bulk is unrealistic at this time I would use $2.00 a lb ($22.00 a gal,) for your business model and see if that will work
The bulk price will not be coming up until the bulk price of oil comes up and the Canadian dollar gets stronger!

[southfork]

From my experience $20 - 30.00 per tap plumbed to the R/O at sugarhouse. Lots of variables such as slope, required pump stations, quality of pump stations, storage tanks, quality of tubing and fittings, road crossings, roads, available electricity, water and amount of labor you commit yourself.

My experience is with only 5,000 taps on very flat terrain, price should come down as you scale. Everything was new and contracted out to a maple installer.

[southfork]

Your best bet would be to consult with some of the regional maple installers such as Wes Schoepke(Wes Fab) or Jim Adamski at Roth sugarbush supplies.

CDL has been pretty aggressive at taking part in large installations such as this, they may help engineer such a project. I believe Jim Adamski has CDL connections at Roth. Joe Polak at Maple Hollow was very helpful when I constructed my small operation, Wes Schoepke did the actual install.

[jeugster]

No at all, I'm here to learn about this stuff!

Lots of underemployed people up North in the Spring time. Certainly workforce development could be an early challenge.

I'm very open to considering that this may not be the right investment, or maybe not the right time in the industry to get in, but I want to get the whole picture first.

From what I've read you want to plan on a 5 year average volume, and have capital to cover operating expenses for 2+ years.

What do you do for the "off" years? Is gap financing a good option rather than keeping so much cash?

[jeugster]

Hello Chris,
It's a huge jump, yes! Very excited to explore what's possible.
I've talked and walked with Kevin Lawyer of Leader, and have feelers out to a couple of others. Smoky Lake Equipment is another one sort of near here too.
Thanks for referring me to Patterson's and Goodrich. I'll reach out to them. So far I've visited a couple operations in Wisconsin, but seeing some big eastern farms with SO many years in business would change my perspective I think.
Will update here as I go.
Jon

[bowtie]

there are a lot of logistical issues with that many taps, you would need a fairly large crew to accomplish this. 100 percent retail is not realistic without a large store or an agreement with retail stores to sell your syrup. i would think you would be better to start slow and see if it is something you want to do and can accomplish, when it goes from fun to work the novelty can be lost. i would try tapping 500 -1000 and look to lease the remainder of the potential taps, therefore gaining you valuable experience and also money before you jump into a huge venture. just my opinion

[Cedar Eater]

I'll be honest. I'm retired and I'm almost getting a headache just thinking about all the headaches it would be to build and then run something like this. I would never invest more than 1/3 of my nest egg on it, but there's a part of me (the project engineer bleeding through from my youth) that thinks it would be real interesting to run the numbers, put together the plan, and then sell the idea to some venture capitalists and not risk too much of my own money. These VCs could all be family and you could start a maple syrup empire. Then your children or grandchildren or great-grandchildren could become worthless trust fund babies. It's the American dream.

[jeugster]

That is a lot of syrup! I used to manage quality control for a big Quikrete plant near Chicago. Specialty cement products industry has some significant parallels with maple syrup; high capital investment, trend towards automation, many products from few raw materials, and a mix of sales channels from bulk to retail.

My job now is managing my own little digital agency, hosting web services and supporting IT for small businesses, so digital sales channels are something I can do. Also have access to a couple of retail locations. Don't know how I'll get to 22.5k but thinking big.

[jeugster]

I want to build the perfect system, man. If nothing else it's a fascinating thought experiment :)

Also my little home town is pretty down and out... SO much natural beauty, but no jobs, a lot of empty houses. I've read that big maple syrup operations have a lot of positive impact on the local economy, and have minimal negative impact on the environment. I definitely want this project to make money, but more importantly I want to create value in the place I inhabit. Sounds like my American dream anyways.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

You might want to contact Crown Maple or Sweet Tree LLC. They know a thing a two about putting tens of thousands of taps in quickly. They also have huge bank accounts. I say if you have the resources, go for it.

[jeugster]

That sounds really interesting. I'm no expert at sugaring, but I know a thing or two about projects and I think I would do the initial tubing for that many taps in four yearly phases because of the learning curves involved and because when it comes time to replace tubing, you won't want to be doing it for the entire bush.

That's a good point about staggering and learning. On paper reduced return for unused capacity, but maybe avoiding big problems by phasing in... Will certainly consider this.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

You will certainly want to consult with some or several professionals for that size operation. I don't know why there is so much negative about the idea in this thread. You need to develop a real, working business plan to see if it feasible for your situation, land, etc. Anyone would be a fool to move forward without that. You also need to be realistic about retail sales. To say 100% retail is crazy, you would need a staff of people just to do that. Retail is a lot of work. With 45,000 taps you will need full time, year round employees. Step 1- Start business plan. Steps 2-1000 fall into place after that, including when/what year you actually get started.
You will probably find that you will want to do "X" number of taps to get started and make a profit and then figure when you can afford to expand. Maybe not, some go for it all once. Either way, good luck.

[southfork]

http://destinationvt.com/georgia-mountain-maples-the-house-that-sap-built/

Here are some excellent sugar makers who were in a similar business as you, concrete.

May also want to speak with Mike Bennett, he is doing the CDL backed installs for Sweet Tree and Crown maple.

[esetter]

If you do 45,000 taps , that will be 44,981 more than I have. Thats impressive!