Boiling with the firebox door open.

[gmc8757]

First time boiling on my new evaporator. It's a 2x4 Patrick set with 10 7in drop flues in the 24x30 flue pan and a 24x18 syrup pan. I have a cage blower installed that I kept from the Mason 2x4 I had.

For me to get a good boil going today I had to keep the front door open the whole time with the blower going as well. Even then, it wasn't the best gph performance and I never really could get a boil in the syrup pan.

I have the 3ft stainless stack that came with it and one piece of double wall stack on top of the stainless for a total of only 7 ft. I am adding 4 more feet tomorrow. Do you think that was my problem? Or do I need a new blower capable of more cfm's? I have to get the exact specs on this one but it is a hobby one.

I am burning good hardwood cut small with non ro'd sap. I have 2 inch of fire blanket and it's firebricked. I can touch the sides, not for long but you can touch them. I also have the forced air grates.

What do you think? Patrick says it should do 30-35 gph but I obviously didn't get that today - maybe 17-20. Hoping that adding to the stack will help.


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[psparr]

I had a problem last year with a poor boil. I had too many coals basically restricting my blower. Once I jostled stuff around in the firebox and got the air moving, things ran great.

[gmc8757]

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. So maybe I was loading it up w too much wood? I did have quite the bed of coals when I went to shutdown


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[mellondome]

I would say uou need more blower. You shouldn't be able to keep the door open with the blower running. It should be flaming out the door. You also should not have much for coals if you are getting enough air with wrist size wood (2-3in diameter max).

[wnybassman]

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. So maybe I was loading it up w too much wood? I did have quite the bed of coals when I went to shutdown


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I have found that if I put fewer pieces of wood in more often, I can get a hotter fire going.

[sugarsand]

We have flat grates, in order to keep a hot fire going, we use a long handled furnace poker to keep the coals and wood stirred up. Without doing this the wood just to lays there. When we fire, the blower has to be slowed way down or flames will shoot out 3 to 4 feet.

sugarsand

[marlmucker]

I have the same Phaneuf setup as you, minus the blower. I have found that it works better with less wood, opposed to filled right up.

[gmc8757]

Thanks guys. I will try firing more with less.

What blower do you guys use? Any idea which one I should get?


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[wnybassman]

Also, I can't put the wood in too far. Right up almost against the door is best for a better syrup pan boil.

[Sugarmaker]

Get a egg timer set it for 7 minutes and fire same amount each time with minimal door open time. And having the door open will only draw in massive amounts of cold air and dropping your boil rate. Your doing fine.
Regards,
Chris

[gmc8757]

I have the same Phaneuf setup as you, minus the blower. I have found that it works better with less wood, opposed to filled right up.

awesome, thank you. I also pm'd you.

[gmc8757]

Get a egg timer set it for 7 minutes and fire same amount each time with minimal door open time. And having the door open will only draw in massive amounts of cold air and dropping your boil rate. Your doing fine.
Regards,
Chris

Thank you Chris. I hear you on the drawing in massive amounts of cold air, just not sure what to do about it. If I close the door the boil drops a ton.

My plan is to add the extra 4ft of stack, fire same amount of wood each time at 7 minutes apart with less wood. I'll see how that goes today. Thank you guys, any other suggestions are definitely welcomed, I appreciate it.

[nymapleguy607]

Sounds like you have a combination of problems. First question I ask is what size stack is on the evaporator? A poor or lack of boil in the syrup pan makes me think you have a problem with too much draft from the stack and blower, by opening the door you are letting outside air get pulled in in place of pulling your heat out the stack. Next question would be are you running a stack thermometer? If so what was that doing. On my 2x6 what I found worked for reducing the amount of draft but still kept the flue pan boiling good was to place a fire brick on edge under the stack collar where the pan and stack collar meet. For me this helped balance the boil between the syrup pan and the flue pan.

[gmc8757]

Thank you Jeff, I appreciate you responding with these question.
The stack is 8in wide and 7ft tall.
I do have a stack thermometer it was about 450-500 with the door close and blower going and was at it's best boil at 700 with the door open and the blower going.
I did try the door close and no blower with the front ash door open some and didn't get a great boil going.

Sorry, where exactly would I place this firebrick? Inside the evaporator just before the flue starts right? Basically make the exhaust go around the firebrick?


Sounds like you have a combination of problems. First question I ask is what size stack is on the evaporator? A poor or lack of boil in the syrup pan makes me think you have a problem with too much draft from the stack and blower, by opening the door you are letting outside air get pulled in in place of pulling your heat out the stack. Next question would be are you running a stack thermometer? If so what was that doing. On my 2x6 what I found worked for reducing the amount of draft but still kept the flue pan boiling good was to place a fire brick on edge under the stack collar where the pan and stack collar meet. For me this helped balance the boil between the syrup pan and the flue pan.

[RC Maple]

I thought of starting a similar thread. When doing long boils - more than 5 or 6 hrs, my box gets so full of coals I have to throw the pieces of burning wood outside and shovel the coals into a wheel barrow, dump them and reload the burning pieces along with some new wood. Not exactly convenient. I have a barrel evaporator with an air opening below the door - typical vogelzang door. I usually burn with the door slightly open for best heat, no blower, and try to keep 600+ degrees. I have gotten faster at the routine maybe just because I got a bigger shovel but would rather not have to do it. I am burning ash and honey locust, cut small and firing about every 7 min. I will be playing with closing the door and trying to work and keeping the coals down. I would love to have a good solution though.

[Ed R]

Like Sugarsand said earlier in the thread use a long handled furnace poker to rake the coals on top of your grates each time you fire.

[mellondome]

Coals are the result of not getting air under the fire. Your air supply (forced or natural draft) should come up from under the fire. You are just throwing out heat when you remove the coals. Kinda like a vehicle with gas coming out the exhast.

[gmc8757]

Like Sugarsand said earlier in the thread use a long handled furnace poker to rake the coals on top of your grates each time you fire.

I was doing this and noticed the boil rate went up for a short while after.

[Big_Eddy]

RC Maple - If you are getting coals building up, you are probably firing too much at a time, or you don't have enough air. The goal is to add the amount of wood that has been consumed since the last firing. Try adding less wood at a time and firing more frequently. Too large wood will also contribute to coals. If that slows down the boil, then increase the air getting under the fire. (bigger opening, fan, change to grate)


GMC8757 - I would expect with small dry hardwood, a 10' stack, and the ash door WIDE open with no blower, you should get 20+GPH. A blower should only increase that. So there should be room for improvement. Really sounds to me like you don't have enough air.

Without a fire, but with the blower on - can you hear air rushing through the arch?
How much space do you have under your flues?
How much space is there under your fire grate?

[gmc8757]

GMC8757 - I would expect with small dry hardwood, a 10' stack, and the ash door WIDE open with no blower, you should get 30-40GPH. A blower should only increase that. So there should be room for improvement. Really sounds to me like you don't have enough air.

Without a fire, but with the blower on - can you hear air rushing through the arch?
How much space do you have under your flues?
How much space is there under your fire grate?

I will know in about an hour if I can hear air rushing through the arch without a fire! Great idea.
Under my flues I do have a good amount of space, probably as much as 16 in in the front and sloped up to the to the chimney. Should I build a wall with firebrick up to the flues?
About 10 in or so under the fire grate to the floor.
Thanks for the questions, I'm curious to hear if these measurements are good or bad.

[psparr]

You want to ramp up near the front of the flue pan and keep the space to almost 0 under the flues.

[Big_Eddy]

I will know in about an hour if I can hear air rushing through the arch without a fire! Great idea.
Under my flues I do have a good amount of space, probably as much as 16 in in the front and sloped up to the to the chimney. Should I build a wall with firebrick up to the flues?
About 10 in or so under the fire grate to the floor.
Thanks for the questions, I'm curious to hear if these measurements are good or bad.

Maybe take a picture of the side of the arch and post.

For a 2x4 with an 18" syrup pan, I would expect the firebox to be ~18" deep door to back wall, rising vertically until about 12" below the rail (6" below bottom of flues) then angling up on a 45 until you have less than an inch under the flues. From that point (about mid way along the arch) to the back, there should be less than 1" under the flues. A 2x4 is pretty short, so you need a fast rise up to the flues to get good heat transfer. You could build the back wall straight up to the bottom of the flues without any ramp - but you might find it boils too hard in the syrup pan that way.

(Note - I was initially thinking 2x6 - I have revised my GPH estimate without blower to 20 - 30 with a blower is still a good target.)

[gmc8757]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160223/fb5a14039beb4ce83a8d6439c43d0c62.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160223/caad713b2e6a57649301f3ccfd13929d.jpg

Do these pictures help? I can take more detailed ones.

It is about 26" front to end of firebox. About 23" down from the rail, angled up to 13" in the back.

I did add the second stove pipe to bring it to 11' total of 8". I can hear the fan blowing air through the evaporator when there is no fire going but doesn't seem like a ton. I tired with no blower and the ash door wide open. I tried ash door sealed, box door closed and blower going. I tried blower going, ash door sealed, and box door open. All while firing small amounts more often and have not seen a difference unfortunately.

I'm trying some dried small pieces of pine now. See how that goes. Maybe a combination.

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[western mainer]

Also add 1 roll of 1/2 fire brick on your grate up against the door. On my 2X6 It make a big difference in the boil.
Brian

[nymapleguy607]

So looking at the stack temps, when the door is closed you aren't getting much pull with the stack even with the blower, I would say start with another length of stack and see if that helps kick up the fire, that should help both pans boil harder. If you can hit 700 with the door closed and blower running you should be golden.



Thank you Jeff, I appreciate you responding with these question.
The stack is 8in wide and 7ft tall.
I do have a stack thermometer it was about 450-500 with the door close and blower going and was at it's best boil at 700 with the door open and the blower going.
I did try the door close and no blower with the front ash door open some and didn't get a great boil going.

Sorry, where exactly would I place this firebrick? Inside the evaporator just before the flue starts right? Basically make the exhaust go around the firebrick?

[gmc8757]

Also add 1 roll of 1/2 fire brick on your grate up against the door. On my 2X6 It make a big difference in the boil.
Brian

Hi Brian. Should I lay them flat from the left side of the grate to the right side? What does this do?


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[gmc8757]

So looking at the stack temps, when the door is closed you aren't getting much pull with the stack even with the blower, I would say start with another length of stack and see if that helps kick up the fire, that should help both pans boil harder. If you can hit 700 with the door closed and blower running you should be golden.

One more length of pipe in addition to the one I just put on before today's boil?

I had 7'. Now 11' and I'm not seeing a difference


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[Big_Eddy]

Do these pictures help? I can take more detailed ones.

It is about 26" front to end of firebox. About 23" down from the rail, angled up to 13" in the back.

I did add the second stove pipe to bring it to 11' total of 8". I can hear the fan blowing air through the evaporator when there is no fire going but doesn't seem like a ton. I tired with no blower and the ash door wide open. I tried ash door sealed, box door closed and blower going. I tried blower going, ash door sealed, and box door open. All while firing small amounts more often and have not seen a difference unfortunately.

I'm trying some dried small pieces of pine now. See how that goes. Maybe a combination.

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If you peek into the crack between the back of the flue pan and the stack, what do you see? Do you see roaring flames all the way into the stack? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTzDKZlIPWM
If not, then the fire is not burning hot enough. More air!!

If you do but the boil is still not to your liking, I would brick a solid back wall vertically all the way up until 1" under the flues, and then flat back from there to the stack. Assuming that the bricks are currently flat on the bottom of the arch, I think you have too much space under the front of the flues and you are missing out on much of the available heat. (I wonder what Patrick recommends for a bricking pattern??) I would want to close down that gap under the pan as much as possible. (Even more so with a blower than a natural draft)

Adding stack has more effect on a natural draft evaporator than it does with forced air. Up-sizing the blower makes much more difference than adding stack.

[gmc8757]

Oh man, I definitely do not have that. What I do have is a new blower on the way, will be here Thursday. 1000cfm squirrel cage blower. Hoping that does the trick along with building that wall under the start of the flues.

How about drilling more holes in the grates? Like mentioned on this thread, when I rake the coals a little, the stack temp goes up to 600 and the boil gets going (with the door open). I'm guess I'm cleaning the existing air holes a little which is allowing more air to come into the box. Maybe I need more holes?


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[western mainer]

Yes lay them flat left to right. I used 1- 1/2 bricks you will see a big jump in your boiling. It keeps the cold air from blowing up on to your pan. When I started up this year I forgot to put them back and it took a hour to boil and it wasn't strong at all, in the past it takes about 7 minutes to boil and 10 minutes for a hard boil. IWoke up after a hour and saw the bricks on the floor and with in a minute it was a hard boil.
Brian

[wnybassman]

Yes lay them flat left to right. I used 1- 1/2 bricks you will see a big jump in your boiling. It keeps the cold air from blowing up on to your pan. When I started up this year I forgot to put them back and it took a hour to boil and it wasn't strong at all, in the past it takes about 7 minutes to boil and 10 minutes for a hard boil. IWoke up after a hour and saw the bricks on the floor and with in a minute it was a hard boil.
Brian

I might need a picture to see what you are talking about. I am interested about this as well.

[western mainer]

Ok tomorrow morning I'll post a picture. I was having alot of problems and couldn't find any answers when I met a long time sugar maker and he told me what to do and now It's works fine.
Brian

[Big_Eddy]

Oh man, I definitely do not have that. What I do have is a new blower on the way, will be here Thursday. 1000cfm squirrel cage blower. Hoping that does the trick along with building that wall under the start of the flues.

How about drilling more holes in the grates? Like mentioned on this thread, when I rake the coals a little, the stack temp goes up to 600 and the boil gets going (with the door open). I'm guess I'm cleaning the existing air holes a little which is allowing more air to come into the box. Maybe I need more holes?


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Show us the grates. For natural draft you want at least 1/2 air space. Forced air can be less but should probably be at least 1/4 open.

[gmc8757]

Ok tomorrow morning I'll post a picture. I was having alot of problems and couldn't find any answers when I met a long time sugar maker and he told me what to do and now It's works fine.
Brian

Perfect, that will help me too. Thanks Brian


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[gmc8757]

Show us the grates. For natural draft you want at least 1/2 air space. Forced air can be less but should probably be at least 1/4 open.

Will do. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me figure this out. Thank you


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[nymapleguy607]

Are you sure the blower you are using is wired right? I mean can you feel air coming into the firebox through the grates. I have never had an evaporator with a blower get hotter when the door is open and cooler when it is closed. If the blower is turning right maybe there is too much static pressure for that blower to overcome.

[psparr]

I use an old leaf blower. Plenty of air, but when the coals are deep, no amount of air is enough.

[western mainer]

13297 Here's the photo if I did it right! Now I see you are getting a 1000cfm blower Way to big I have a 450cfm on my 2X6 and some days I have to turn it down. Also have you cut down the space at the back by the stack to help keep in the heat so it all doesn't go up the stack?
Brian

[RC Maple]

[QUOTE=Big_Eddy;297062]RC Maple - If you are getting coals building up, you are probably firing too much at a time, or you don't have enough air. The goal is to add the amount of wood that has been consumed since the last firing. Try adding less wood at a time and firing more frequently. Too large wood will also contribute to coals. If that slows down the boil, then increase the air getting under the fire. (bigger opening, fan, change to grate)


Thanks for the ideas guys. I boiled for about 5 hrs last night and did try to do a better job of raking coals forward. It did seem to go well and the build up of coals was less. Maybe my grate spacing is too wide allowing the space underneath to fill up with coals and kill the air flowing under it. I could be firing with too much wood too - trying to get my stack temp up.

[gmc8757]

13297 Here's the photo if I did it right! Now I see you are getting a 1000cfm blower Way to big I have a 450cfm on my 2X6 and some days I have to turn it down. Also have you cut down the space at the back by the stack to help keep in the heat so it all doesn't go up the stack?
Brian

Thanks for the picture, I will try that. I'm not sure what that actually does...do you know?

I asked Patrick which blower I should get and he said at least 1000CFM. It will be here tomorrow.

In the meantime, I am going to try building the wall under the beginning of the flues and see if that helps.

[gmc8757]

Are you sure the blower you are using is wired right? I mean can you feel air coming into the firebox through the grates. I have never had an evaporator with a blower get hotter when the door is open and cooler when it is closed. If the blower is turning right maybe there is too much static pressure for that blower to overcome.

I do feel air coming through the grates. You can tell air is coming through after raking the coals also. The blower only has 2 wires and a ground. I cut a computer cord and wired it up with that. I don't think it matters if the 2 wires were switched because it is AC, right?

[nymapleguy607]

I do feel air coming through the grates. You can tell air is coming through after raking the coals also. The blower only has 2 wires and a ground. I cut a computer cord and wired it up with that. I don't think it matters if the 2 wires were switched because it is AC, right?

I'm not positive but I think if the wiring matters, if it was wired backwards the motor would rotate the other way. What direction does the blower wheel turn when its running? If you look into the air intake of the blower it should turn counter clockwise.

I know on my evaporator you could never open the doors when the blower was running or else you had a flame and embers shooting out them. Unless you just dont have enough blower, but it seems like if you ran it on a 2x4 without issues before it should work now.

[Big_Eddy]

Maybe my grate spacing is too wide allowing the space underneath to fill up with coals and kill the air flowing under it. I could be firing with too much wood too - trying to get my stack temp up.

I have occasionally had coals falling below the grate, blocking air to the fire. I only have 4" below my grate - so not a lot of space to build up ash and coals. I use my poker through the ash door to level them out and open up the air path again and it makes a big difference. Haven't pinned down what causes it - probably wood type or size - but when it does happen, I just run the poker around a few times until I hear the roar return.

[western mainer]

You can't go wrong wiring a 120V motor on a 220 you can change the rotation
Brian

[CampHamp]

If your blower is weak or off, then the air coming from the duct will just U-turn and ignite the flames to the back of the firebox. I wonder if you can test by blocking the rear intake and just open up the ash door. You might get better results that way until you get a bigger blower to get the air to the front of the firebox. Sometimes people will extend the air path further to the front with some under-grate ducting.

I like the idea of using pine instead of hardwood as a test to reduce the coaling on the grate. You should get some more sap tomorrow to fire up again!

[brass maple]

I agree with western mainer. Place the bricks a crossed the front of your evaporator. The air blowing up through the front of your fire box isn't doing much for you. The more you direct it through the middle of your fire box the better it is. I had that problem last year when I built mine. Air was going around the fire instead of through the bed of the fire. As far as size of your new blower set it up with a damper. Better to get one with to much air that you can regulate than one that isn't enough. I was using a leaf blower That claims speed of 175 miles per hour and just dampered it down. Wow big fire just be careful when opening door

[Mini_Maple_Men]

For auf on the cheap, we bought a Stanley floor blower from Home Depot for $57 free shipping to my door, and rigged it up with some aluminum pan lids to fit the ash door snuggly, this is after trying to just stick the snout in the door and blowing ash and embers back on the blower and floor! Was worried it wouldn't push enough air but in reality we couldn't run it over low speed and fired every 12 min with wrist sized hard wood. We have a baby arch and went from 5 gph to 11 gph evap rate. I know it's not pretty but for massive air volume to trouble shoot your fire issues it is cheap and easy. Also made us realize that we need stainless elbow and pipe on the arch now!133071330813309

[gmc8757]

Well, great news. Between the blower and the firebrick wall in the back of the firebox I am boiling 25ghp. Patrick said this should do 35 gph. That would be great, but I'm sure that is under absolute perfect conditions and I may just not be there yet with wood, sugar content, learning when to fire etc.

Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.


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[Big_Eddy]

Well, great news. Between the blower and the firebrick wall in the back of the firebox I am boiling 25ghp. Patrick said this should do 35 gph. That would be great, but I'm sure that is under absolute perfect conditions and I may just not be there yet with wood, sugar content, learning when to fire etc.

Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.


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I think a steady 25GPH from a 2x4 is pretty good. I'm sure that Patrick's number is a "stars aligned" number, but I've listed some things you can do to squeak everything you can out of the setup.

Air - Sounds like you have enough air now - but there's probably opportunity to tune it some more. Increase and decrease the air and watch your boil rates to find the sweet spot.
Sap depth - Less is more - more evaporation, more risk. Start about 2", as you get comfortable, bring it down to 1 1/2", and lower still if you dare.
Wood - dryer = hotter, smaller = hotter
Firing Rate - match your firing rate to wood consumption - but in general more frequent firing = hotter fire.
Pre-heater - I'd expect the advertised number is based on pre-heated sap.

[gmc8757]

Thank you Eddy. These are all great suggestions. I will be playing around with them here the next couple of days. Thanks a lot.


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[RC Maple]

I thought of starting a similar thread. When doing long boils - more than 5 or 6 hrs, my box gets so full of coals I have to throw the pieces of burning wood outside and shovel the coals into a wheel barrow, dump them and reload the burning pieces along with some new wood. Not exactly convenient. I have a barrel evaporator with an air opening below the door - typical vogelzang door. I usually burn with the door slightly open for best heat, no blower, and try to keep 600+ degrees. I have gotten faster at the routine maybe just because I got a bigger shovel but would rather not have to do it. I am burning ash and honey locust, cut small and firing about every 7 min. I will be playing with closing the door and trying to work and keeping the coals down. I would love to have a good solution though.

Before I boiled Saturday, I switched to a different grate that I had made. The cross pieces were angle iron spaced 3/4" closer than the other grate I was using. I also raised the grate by sitting it on top of 4 fire bricks laying on their side. This raised the level of the grate to fully above the air intake below the firebox door instead of only partially. Saturdays boil went great. I had no build up of coals, was able to boil at the temperature I wanted and could boil with the door closed. Much better way to boil. Hopefully, that was the answer. It could be Saturday was just a great boiling day but I think raising the grate and having the closer spacings helped me. We'll see tonight.