Maiden RO run

[Dieseldog]

We ran 2% sap through our homemade RO for the first time yesterday. Out came 4-5% concentrate and 0% permeate. What a pleasant surprise! We then ran it back through again and it came out 71/2-8%. About 200 gallons was reduced to 43 gallons. Are we running the RO properly or do you have some suggestions on how to better run our unit?
Our flow meters read .5 gpm for concentrate and .8 gpm permeate. Psi was 230-240. Our shallow well feeder pump ran at 30psi.
The RO consists of one Axeon NF3 4040, 1/2 hp shallow well feeder pump, 1 hp motor, and a Procon 265 GPH pump. Are we close to running this properly? Thanks.
Jim

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Nice work. Sounds about right. On my RO I start my flows at 50/50. I don't think it would be long before an over-pressure if I ran permeate > concentrate. But, you have a NF membrane, and I have an XLE. I think yours has different flow characteristics. Anyway, congrats on a functional machine. At the end of the day you saved a huge amount of time and wood.

Tell me how you liked boiling concentrate on your Mason? I found it to be a new challenge for determining when to draw off because there was so much syrup in the pan.

[bowhunter]

Jim,
It looks pretty good but it's a little hard to tell for sure. I wasn't sure if the conditions ( pressure, concentrate and permeate flow) were the same on each pass. I assume not. You should be able to get the same reduction in one pass. I have a new Axeon NF3 2540 and I've had several runs on it. Here's what I calculate you should be able to do with the NF3 4040 membrane if it runs like mine ran yesterday passing the sap through once. 1.0 GPM permeate, 0.35 GPM concentrate, 165 psi and sap going from 2% in to 7.75% out. Performance on membranes can vary a lot and I believe the manufacturers only guarantee it to within 20% of the stated capacity.

[Dieseldog]

Thanks Urban. I noticed awhile ago that we had the same Mason.

Bowhunter, thank you for your reply AND for all the help you gave us. We could not have done this without your help. The second run through had the following numbers: Concentrate = .7 gpm, Permiate = .5 gpm, psi =242.
We will be running some more sap today and will shoot for a one pass through and about 7%. We do worry a little on the psi with this setup. Thanks.
Jim

[bowhunter]

I think the Permeate flow may be a typo? The pressures seems a little higher than I would expect, but as you know each membrane is different. It looks like you're processing about 1.2 to 1.3 GPM through the membrane. This is about what I would expect for this size NF3. Just to confirm set your concentrate flow at 0.3 to 0.4 GPM with the concentrate valve and adjust your recirculation valve to achieve enough pressure to permeate about 0.9 to 1.0 GPM. You will have to go back and forth adjusting the concentrate and recirculation valves to get to the desired conditions. This should give you 7.5 to 8% sugar with 2% sap on one pass. 0.3 GPM concentrate would give you 18 gallons per hour to feed the evaporator. Please do whatever is more comfortable for you. If you want to process the sap in a couple steps that's fine. I'm just telling you how I like to do it.

[Dieseldog]

Yes, it was a typo. Should have read .5 on permeate. As far as the high pressure goes, do you think the following could be the reason? Our low pressure tubing is 1/2" id. The high pressure lines are 3/8" od and 1/4" id. If that is causing the higher pressure readings we could easily convert to all 1/2".
Yes, boiling with 7-8 % concentrate is awesome but things happen quickly. The new Marcland auto draw off is working great. Time to go bottle.
Jim

[mkoehler79]

Hi Jim. Based on the pressure drop chart here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwim7bSq8Y7LAhVN6GMKHZ9GC7AQFggoMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpressureconnections.com%2Fcustome r%2Fprcoco%2Fcustomerpages%2Fliterature%2FHose_Pre ssure_Drop_Chart.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE2syflasKDHsqdwoldWx-Jca0wpA&bvm=bv.115277099,d.cGc You may want to look at upsizing the high pressure lines.

[bowhunter]

Yes, it was a typo. Should have read .5 on permeate. As far as the high pressure goes, do you think the following could be the reason? Our low pressure tubing is 1/2" id. The high pressure lines are 3/8" od and 1/4" id. If that is causing the higher pressure readings we could easily convert to all 1/2".
Yes, boiling with 7-8 % concentrate is awesome but things happen quickly. The new Marcland auto draw off is working great. Time to go bottle.
Jim
It may be a problem. Can you get the pressure down with the recirculation valve? If not the tubing may be too restrictive.
P.S. Yes looking at the chart from mkoehler79 I would agree with his assessment.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Yes, boiling with 7-8 % concentrate is awesome but things happen quickly. The new Marcland auto draw off is working great.

Around what temp are you setting the draw off? My whole system for setting mine completely changed when I started boiling concentrate. 10% sap made things interesting.

[Coffeerv]

I have good quality barometer next to the evaporator. Water boils at specific barometric pressure same as pressure "altitude" changes boiling, so do pressure fronts passing over you. Aircraft use altimeters which are highly accurate fast responding barometers. There are charts that show the exact boiling temp based on the barometric pressure. I have seen it change an entire degree in a single evening or not. I have set my temp setting a dozen times during evening boil and always get the exact brix I am after. no more no less.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Yes, it was a typo. Should have read .5 on permeate. As far as the high pressure goes, do you think the following could be the reason? Our low pressure tubing is 1/2" id. The high pressure lines are 3/8" od and 1/4" id. If that is causing the higher pressure readings we could easily convert to all 1/2".
Yes, boiling with 7-8 % concentrate is awesome but things happen quickly. The new Marcland auto draw off is working great. Time to go bottle.
Jim
change every thing to 3/4 concentrate lines.

I have 1-1/4 pvc feed line from main tank then change to full 1" ID all the way through my HP pump then once it hits the first membrane then drops to 3/4. I am trying to get as much flow as possible.