Shurflo Pump Question

[wvsugarshak]

I use Three shurflo pumps each on a different lines, two are 3/4 and one is1 inch mainline. the one i have a question about is 3/4 mainland it's 500ft long with 55 cv taps with all laterals of 100 ft or less. My gauge at the end shows 15 inches of vacuum but watching all three pump together this one seem on start up to move sap just find and then after a while I don't see it pushing sap or bubbles out the discharge line like the other two pumps. When i Slighty crack the union you can really hear the sucking sound and then the sap move out the discharge line like normal. Thanks for reading all this and any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

WV Sugarshak

[TerryEspo]

I hope I understand your issue.

"Slightly Crack" the union,,,,,Do you mean allow air into the system?

Is it possible that the 3/4" line in question just doesn't have enough sap in it to pump out ?

My Shurflow acts funny when the trees are just not giving it up, poor sap day like.

Hope that helps.

Terry

[wvsugarshak]

yes when i let air in it sucks sap rite through. I do have a screen and i have checked it is fine no restriction there. but compared to my other two it is like it is air locked. I know there needs to be room in the line for the gas to travel like a wet dry system. but since the 3/4 mainline is only full down were it connects to the pump. there should be room for the gas to travel above the sap.

Thanks

WV Sugarshak

If i get a chance will try to post a video of what going on.

[Super Sapper]

Sounds like the system is tight but the trees and not giving anything. The pump will only pump until the vacuum on the suction side equals the ability of the pump. If it was surging back and forth I would say one of the checks was not seating but it sounds like everything is good.

[gmc8757]

Sugar shark, how is the pump running now? I have a similar situation but think the trees aren't giving it up just yet.


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[derekp]

I'm having some issues as well with my shurflo system..I can't get my gauges to register any vaccum but when I take fittings apart, you can hear it sucking and feel the vaccum when you put ur finger over the line..seems like the pump only surges once there is enough head behind it..is this adjustable??any thoughts?

[bcarpenter]

Silly question, but are you sure you have vacuum gauges and not pressure gauges? Last time I was at Bascom's I picked up pressure gauges instead of vacuum gauges not really paying attention. Luckily the guy at the counter questioned me when I put them on the counter, and told me I had mistakenly grabbed 2 pressure gauges. I should have paid closer attention to what I was picking up off the shelf.

The only other time that my vacuum gauges did not register anything is when I has an ice blockage in my main line near the pump. When my sureflo pump is dry the gauges register between 10-15" Hg. When the sap is running the gauges are 20-25 Hg.

This is my first season with gauges so I have been watching them a lot. Today I got my highest readings with the sap flowing. 27" at the pump and 23.5" at my furthest tap. Hope this helpsa and I hope you have vac. gauges!!! :)

Bill C.


I'm having some issues as well with my shurflo system..I can't get my gauges to register any vaccum but when I take fittings apart, you can hear it sucking and feel the vaccum when you put ur finger over the line..seems like the pump only surges once there is enough head behind it..is this adjustable??any thoughts?

[bcarpenter]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/348fc24d802ae8edba6990973d5e08e2.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/a6d2325821fa62117276a0d8d3d4fcee.jpg
A couple photos of my gauges from today.


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[derekp]

Thanks for the quick reply! They are vac gauges..I can get 15" on them using my mouth!!checked that they worked right when I got them...I have the shurflo in line on a 3/4" mainline..could it be a back pressure issue?not enough back pressure on the discharge end?

[TerryEspo]

I don't think it has anything to do with the discharge end.

[derekp]

13218

This is my setup...could the strainer be messing up vaccum since it's so close to the pump??

[CampHamp]

...but watching all three pump together this one seem on start up to move sap just find and then after a while I don't see it pushing sap or bubbles out the discharge line like the other two pumps. When i Slighty crack the union you can really hear the sucking sound and then the sap move out the discharge line like normal.

It sounds like your pump is stalling on air. I find that a gradual down slope from your mainline into the inlet will keep a constant trickle going and your diaphragm will stay wet. If it's too steep or uphill anywhere near the inlet, then the pump will churn then stall repeatedly. When this happens, you should still get at least 10" of vacuum or you've got leaks in your tube or you have an ice blockage.

[derekp]

The more I read into it by lookin in the archives about these pumps, the only thing I can think of that would make sense is a major leak in my mainline. All of the saddles had sap built up behind them so I know it's not a leak in my laterals. I have a gauge 1/4 of the way up my main and one at the top of my main...both were getting 0 vac... When I first started the pump, I had a few old saddles that were leaking air really loud, so I replaced them with newer saddles and all of the noise went away but still no vaccum on the gauges..I could hear a lot of air going through the mainline when I disconnected it at one fitting...it's only 400' of mainline so I may isolate sections to see if I get any vac to show up...I have a 50' gentle slope coming into the pump which it right before my tank..so I believe that the pump is wet all the time..just seems like it has to build up a lot of pressure before the pump kicks on and discharges..

[mellondome]

Do you remove your ice filter and keep it in a heated location when not pumping? You may want to invert that housing so it isnt full of sap all the time.
Sounds like mainline leaks.

[derekp]

Yes, when I bypass the pump I dump out the cup...the bottom of the strainer unscrews...everything should be frozen up good today so hopefully that will help isolate my mainline so I can really look for leaks...thanks everyone for the input

[CampHamp]

One other note is that the shurflo strainer needs to screwed down pretty tight (at least mine does). After cleaning the screen, I get this stalled-out symptom until I give it an extra crank down.

[BlueberryHill]

My 2088 burned up on Saturday night. It was only the 4th or 5th day that I have used it. I tested the power going in and it's good, but the pump won't go. Smells too. Not sure if I want to buy another or just try something different. Better make up my mind fast!

[derekp]

Well i tried to get things sorted out during lunch break but my mainline approach to the tank was froze up...gunna have to wait till Wednesday when things thaw out a bit...in the mean time I'm going to throw a valve 1/2 way up the main to section off an upper and lower section to try to isolate things better...it may come in handy if a have leak issues later on as well..Blueberry Hill, that's terrible about your 2088...that's the same model I have, did it work well in those 4 days u used it? & BCarpenter, thanks for the photos, I am going to add a gauge on my mainline just as you did

[mellondome]

You could put a quick coupler on the top end. Shut off the bottom end. Put your pump on the top and watch the main line to see where the bubbles form.

[BlueberryHill]

No, mine did not seem to work that well from the start honestly. I may have set something up wrong, who knows. I felt good about it putting it together after reading a lot on here. Bit I could never get it above 9" and the system is tight. The gauge 500' back on the line was always reading the same as the gauge at the pump. And if I pulled a tap it would suck in a ton of air, loudly. I'm hoping to get a guzzler or lunchbox on there soon just to see how they do in comparison. I'm expecting to get home and find the lines all full of sap. I don't have much of any slope so the sap makes it's way to the tank rather slowly without assistance.

[BRL]

I have a 2088 and a 4048. I'm thinking the 4048 is a much better pump but it's also twice the money!

[wvsugarshak]

Yeah I haven't got my straighten out either. I will keep working on it. Here is another question on these pumps How long do you let them run ? Since we have had some long warm spells After 24hrs i try to give them a rest for a few hours . just wondering what everyone else does?

thanks

WVsugarshak

But I will say getting a lot more sugarwater with them than with out them

[CampHamp]

Pump should run whenever the trees do... I use a thermostat to switch on above freezing and off a few degrees below.

[Biz]

I think the only difference between the 4008 and 4048 is flow rate. 4048 is slightly higher flow. I doubt that it would make a difference in most cases, since the pump is used mostly for high vacuum, low flow rate. Last night I saw 29" on my 4008 setup, 22 taps on 3/16" tubing. It outperformed a similar gravity line by at least 2x.

Dave

[derekp]

Are you guys using in line strainers??anyone have photos of their pump setup?

[derekp]

Jamie I just watched ur video and it was very helpful but I have a question. I noticed that you pump up from the pump into your barrel, my setup pumps directly from the pump into my tank...could that be my problem? There is no pressure on the discharge end to build vaccum against?

[CampHamp]

Pumping down or flat could only be better than pumping up. I think your lift will just make your pump work harder and draw more amps but I have pumped up 25' to my shack and had good vac on the inlet (pump was working very hard, though, because of the air).

[CampHamp]

Are you guys using in line strainers??anyone have photos of their pump setup?
ShurFlo pumps come with strainers and you need them to protect diaphragm from ice. Here's my setup:

9120

[rhwells2003]

careful of those strainers that come with them though. they are kinda cheap. Mine was sheared off the first week I had it installed. Someone on here had a better idea with a couple pvc reducers with some kitchen sink screen on the inside. That seemed to make good sense to me

[derekp]

I bought my strainer at tractor supply and it is quite larger than yours...my setup is basically the same except for the strainer size..it seems like a pretty simple setup..I'm baffled as to why I have 0 vaccum on the gauges...I guess tomorrow will tell me more

[sweetwater sugar shack]

Where did u get the thermostat from if u don't mind me asking

[BRL]

I think this is the one he has.

http://www.amazon.com/RioRand-Thermostat-Temperature-Controller-Waterproof/dp/B00KCCX0EE/ref=pd_sim_60_18?ie=UTF8&dpID=41T7wkJa6-L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0YHCG976V75VW6GWY9CJ

[CampHamp]

Yes - that's the one I have. You can find them on eBay (shipping from China, though) for under $3. For a little more money, you can find ones with housing. Search "thermostat 12V" and you'll see some options. Just look for 10A or better, the operating temp range and C or F (the one I have is only uses C).

[vtgaryw]

While we're on the subject - how do folks hook your vacuum gauge into a 5/16" line? I want a gauge at the end of my line. In the past, I've put a "Y" in the line, and run a short section of tubing our of it and kind of just force threaded the 1/8" NPT fitting into the tube. Is there a real fitting that works? I haven't come up with anything so far.

Gary

[CampHamp]

The fitting on my meter (3/8"?) fit snug to standard tube and I added teflon tape to seal the deal.

[bcarpenter]

I pretty much copied CampHamp's set up and documented the build with photos on my blog. I will copy a link below. I use a 4048, and was too lazy to hook up the thermostat even though i bought one. I just wired an on/off toggle switch from an auto parts store in my set-up. I turn the pump on or off depending on the weather and the sap runs. I tweaked the set up from the blog my adding some Tractor supply quick connects, and the vacuum gauge so there was some re-piping involved.

I actually just ordered another one of these 4048 pumps for a second set-up that I hope to get in the woods this weekend. The pump with strainer was closer to $160 a couple days ago on amazon and with prime, 2-day shipping was free!

This set-up has been really beneficial to me and my pump is on its 2nd season this year.

Bill C.

http://www.littlecreekmaplefarm.com/?p=3721


ShurFlo pumps come with strainers and you need them to protect diaphragm from ice. Here's my setup:

9120

[bcarpenter]

I used a tee fitting at the end of my farthest line and ran a piece of 5/16" tubing up to the gauge. I used a 1/4" barbed fitting from lowes similar to the one in the link below that fit my gauge. I did have to use a hose clamp over the 5/16" line and the 1/4" barb to get a tight seal.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_645669-72906-126-4-4X+P___?productId=50359364&pl=1&Ntt=1%2F4%22+brass+fitting+barb

Bill C.


While we're on the subject - how do folks hook your vacuum gauge into a 5/16" line? I want a gauge at the end of my line. In the past, I've put a "Y" in the line, and run a short section of tubing our of it and kind of just force threaded the 1/8" NPT fitting into the tube. Is there a real fitting that works? I haven't come up with anything so far.

Gary

[derekp]

Holy smokes!!I finally got vaccum!!!I inverted my strainer and added a bit more slope coming into the pump and bam, jumped up to 10" instantly...opened the valve to add my upper section into the system and everything went down to 0"... found some bear damaged line, fixed that, and back up to 10" on top and bottom sections...sap wasn't really running yet, just a little bit left in the lines from the weekend..thanks everyone for your help..I should be able to get things tightened up now that I have vac!!

[CampHamp]

Nice. Just in time for this warm breeze, too. Let her run all night, it'll warm up before you wake...

[vtgaryw]

Turns out, my local Ace Hardware actually has 5/16 brass barbs with either 1/8 NPT or 1/4 NPT on the other end. So from a Tee, run a short length of 5/16 tubing to the 5/16 barb and just screw the gauge on. Simple!

Gary

[gmc8757]

I bought mine on Amazon.

Anderson Metals Brass Hose Fitting, Connector, 5/16" Barb x 1/4" Female Pipe https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LNKIDK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_uM8ZwbC5WCP54



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[boondocker]

Does it matter what my vac gauge is screwed into? I see most of you guys have yours on 5/16 line then into a barb. ......I have mine into a 3/4" 90 on the top end of all of my main lines. Would I actually get a.different reading if it was on 5/16? One of my mains is 285ft. With 125 taps and it will only pull 10". My other set up is 460ft. With 80 taps and will only pull 8". And the last set up is a 100 ft. Run with a 165ft Run connecting into it near the bottom and that will pull 14" with 165 taps on it. All three systems have 4008 and no visible leaks or any that I can hear. They are all on 3/4 maine line that is necked down to half inch just before the pump so sap would accumulate in the pipe and the pump would make a.better suction. I tried to turn the filters upside down, that did nothing, all the set ups are on a real good slope, as a matter of fact at night when I remove the pumps it runs on gravity until it freezes and then again when it thaws. I am kind of lost as to what is going on. The only thing I can think of is I am tapped into dead wood on some laterals. .........other then that I lost. Thoughts??

[derekp]

I have been in the same boat as you..same type of setup on 3/4" mainline..sap ran good today and I could only get 8" all day...I spent a few hrs in the woods pushing connections together better, making sure all the taps were seated good..and I got it up to 12" at top and bottom..my woods are tight...my gauge on the bottom is in line on my mainline and on 5/16 on top and they get the same reading...I was hoping for better performance but maybe our mainline runs are too long?I am going to try to reduce my pipe size in and out of the pump to something smaller and see what happens..the pump is still chugging even though there is a steady sap column coming in...it basically spits sap out of the pump...not the steady stream I have seen with other setups...today, my buddy with 70ish less taps than me got double the amount of sap on his 3/16 setup..seems that's the way to go

[derekp]

Vaccum question in general...I have seen people say they get different vac readings on different gauges in the same system. Both of my gauges always read the same thing. What does this mean?Shouldn't there be better vac higher in the system?

[CampHamp]

It's hard to troubleshoot these low-vac readings remotely - it's tricky even when you're there in person! The primary issue is tube/tap leaks.

First, make sure you've given time for everything to be unfrozen and for vacuum to build up. You can see the flow at each junction to your mainline and if I have more than 50% air on any lateral, there's a leaky tap (deadwood/bad drill hole) and if you walk up that lateral during a run, you can see which drop is pushing in the air (or squirrel bite or bad fitting). Inspect the spile, reseat it. Still bad? Then pull it and plug (I need to weed-out about 2% of my taps this way).

Mainline issues are harder, especially if your tube isn't see-through. If you can see through, you can spot a bubbly fitting (esp if you can create a sap column at the junction). My neighbor had major issues with his saddles and only knew by the hissing sound. Those last couple connections before the pump (your filter, valves and pump connector) will leak, too, and you can't hear a hiss over the pump noise. I spot these by closing a mainline valve and seeing if the outlet is still pushing out air - it shouldn't be able to. Also, if mainline flow moves noticeably faster after an in-line fitting, it's leaky.

My only other points of issue were clogged ice filter and air-sap-air cycling/stalling created by a bad tube approach before inlet.

It's probably worth noting your pump model, even though we see the 4008, 2088 and 4048 have all done the job for people. I have the 4048.

[CampHamp]

Vaccum question in general...I have seen people say they get different vac readings on different gauges in the same system. Both of my gauges always read the same thing. What does this mean?Shouldn't there be better vac higher in the system?
You get better vac at the top if your tube is full of sap and gravity is pulling on that column. That happens with 3/16 tubing and, on a good run with enough taps, it would happen on 5/16. Otherwise gravity isn't helping you so, no - think of how the suction drops at the end of your shop-vac is when it's full of water... If the line is all air (little friction) then the vac would be the same, I think.

[CampHamp]

Does it matter what my vac gauge is screwed into?
I don't think so.

[derekp]

Thanks again Jamie,

It's been a trial and error routine for me...I get a little more vac each time I fix something or change something..when I pulled the pump last night, I emptied the strainer and it was clogged up with "gunk" from my lines..so to get 12" out of it with it all clogged, I may get more next time. 12" of vac is better than none anyways...I noticed rings shooting around all my saddle loops which I usually don't get so I know it's helping pull something!

[maplestudent]

I use a shurflo 4008, all 5/16" tubing, 2 main runs totaling about 90 taps.

when looking for squirrel chews, I run my hand along the tubing and inspect the slightest abnormality that I may feel. I find it much easier to feel them than to see them. (I'm not sure if they hiss.....I wear hearing aids due to high frequency hearing loss but they are programmed to amplify speech patterns at those frequencies and not other sounds.....so I'm not sure I'd hear hissing if it occurred.)

Anyway, I have always found the squirrel chews right at trees, so that is where I go first. They can be the smallest nick....1/8" long x 1/16" wide, and cause problems. I wrap electrical tape for a temporary solution unless the hole is large. Usually if there is one nick at a tree, there are others.

As CampHamp said, if you find a column of sap in the tubing, look on the pump side of that point....a fitting, a drop.

[BlueberryHill]

"air-sap-air cycling/stalling created by a bad tube approach before inlet." Could I trouble you to describe what a bad approach is? This sound like and issue I might have had but I am really not sure of the difference between a good approach and a bad approach. Thanks!

[derekp]

Jamie I guess my question was if I have a leak, will my whole system drop because of that leak or will I have less vac on the lateral that has the leak..I guess is it worth putting out more gauges to help find leaks or does it not matter?

[mellondome]

Your whole system will drop due to uour lack of cfm with these pumps. If there is a loop shooting sap around it, there is a leak on that lateral. It sjould flow slow and smooth.

[CampHamp]

"air-sap-air cycling/stalling created by a bad tube approach before inlet." Could I trouble you to describe what a bad approach is? This sound like and issue I might have had but I am really not sure of the difference between a good approach and a bad approach. Thanks!
Let's take a sec to understand the problem (I think Guzzlers would suffer from this issue, too):
Assume your pump can create 25" of vac when wet and only 12" when dry. Start up your pump and have it churn through tons of sap and build up 25". Then there is a section of 100% air arriving at the pump. The pump cannot pull (with 12" power) against the 25" sucking force against it that has built up in the tubing. It will not back-flow, but nor will it pull the air through or even any sap that might arrive to the doorstep later. Eventually the trees will flow more air/sap and the tube pressure will drop to 12" and the pump starts to move again. If it has an accumulation of sap waiting there, then it will raise the vac to above 12" again (maybe only 15" this time because there is less sap) and the cycle continues if another 100% air pocket arrives.

The solution:
Keep a trickle leading into the inlet. When a mainline is too steep or has an uphill section then sap columns form and don't break up or "release forward" as effectively as when the line is gently sloped downward. Inspect your mainline intake on the last 6-foot section and try to make sure air is always over the top of the sap flow there.

You can see my setup on the hobby vac link in my signature to see what I aim for with my inlet flow. Hope this helps.

[CampHamp]

Jamie I guess my question was if I have a leak, will my whole system drop because of that leak or will I have less vac on the lateral that has the leak..I guess is it worth putting out more gauges to help find leaks or does it not matter?
I agree with mellondome. The whole system suffers from one bad tap or leak, unfortunately. If you have 3/16" lines running downhill, then you'll still have good vac on that lateral even if the rest of the system has low vac.

You only need one gauge, but some put them on top of their 3/16 lines to see how each of those laterals are pulling.

[derekp]

Ok so Bill Carpenters video on youtube of his 4048 shows slugs of sap coming into his mainline..that's what I'm looking to achieve correct?when it's shooting through in fast rings, then there is a leak on the lateral somewhere..this is great information...thank you guys for taking the time to walk me through this..vac is new to me for sure and I really want to get this thing working right..

[bcarpenter]

It's funny that you mentioned this. We were getting noticeably lower vacuum a couple days ago and my wife was unable to pump the tank using our vacuum pump.

I went down to troubleshoot thinking it was an ice blockage at the bottom of the tank finding none I troubleshot all the lines and found no issues. The last place was the shurflo in line filter and sure enough the screen was clogged with some tasty looking scum that you found.

A quick cleaning in hot water of the screen back at the house and we were in business. Never had this issue last year so it's one more thing I will check and clean regularly.

Bill c.


Thanks again Jamie,

It's been a trial and error routine for me...I get a little more vac each time I fix something or change something..when I pulled the pump last night, I emptied the strainer and it was clogged up with "gunk" from my lines..so to get 12" out of it with it all clogged, I may get more next time. 12" of vac is better than none anyways...I noticed rings shooting around all my saddle loops which I usually don't get so I know it's helping pull something!




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[bcarpenter]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160227/36a6a9103e96959b6af2bc647c4903b7.jpg

I have been getting too much sap lately, so we had to upgrade the 35 gallon tank to a 65 gallon tank. The shurflo pump appears to be doing what it is supposed to do.


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[CampHamp]

Nice new tank. I like how you made it easy to switch over to transfer mode with just a few valves... I ended up getting a 4008 as a backup pump (never needed it) and now just use it for transfers by running a jumper from the battery to a second small pump box. If you need any info on programming that thermostat, just PM me and I'll send my settings and wiring diagram.

[derekp]

That's an awesome setup bill...both you an Jamie have it down to a science...I'm revamping my setup tomorrow to hopefully improve things!!!Glad to see your getting good sap!!!Hopefully things are gunna start up here tomorrow!

[TerryEspo]

I find it imperative to have sap trickle into the pump during slow periods, slow meaning when sap will sit around on gravity or not even flow.
Slow periods is when the pump is really important. I suck sap from my collection tank (just a bit) and just return it to the collection tank(full cycle). Doing this gives more vacuum to the lines in the bush. Also keeps the pump drinking fluid/air at all times. Again, only when sap is not flowing good on its own. A good flow day I do not suck from my collection barrel.

I use a manifold on my pump and it works great, you do need to babysit it though during slow times to fine tune it. If sap is running good, just plug and play.

Hope that makes sense.

[nekmaple]

I see a lot of you are using the shurflo pump and I'm interested IV got about 300 feet of 1/2 main with 60 taps on gravity,runs real good but I want more lol. So what does everybody recommend I see a lot use a 2088 model is that the best and we're is the cheapest place to get them?

[CampHamp]

I find it imperative to have sap trickle into the pump during slow periods, slow meaning when sap will sit around on gravity or not even flow.
Slow periods is when the pump is really important. I suck sap from my collection tank (just a bit) and just return it to the collection tank(full cycle). Doing this gives more vacuum to the lines in the bush. Also keeps the pump drinking fluid/air at all times. Again, only when sap is not flowing good on its own. A good flow day I do not suck from my collection barrel.

I use a manifold on my pump and it works great, you do need to babysit it though during slow times to fine tune it. If sap is running good, just plug and play.

Hope that makes sense.

Great idea! To suck "just a bit" are you putting a dedicated lateral into the tank? Then do you just plug it up when it starts moving? I'm going to try this, too. I wonder if something like this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/POOL-SKIMMER-REGULATOR-VALVE-FOR-KREEPY-BARACUDA-HAYWARD-SUCTION-STYLE-CLEANER-/201034022334?hash=item2ece8fbdbe:g:z6YAAOxygPtS9~R i) would work in line to allow tank in-flow at low pressure?

[Nemo5]

CampHamp. I will be using a shurflo this year for first time. I have a thermostat like yours and am wondering what you have your settings programmed to.

[TerryEspo]

This is last years manifold, but same idea to pull sap from collection barrel if needed. 13405

Three taps needed minimum.

First black tap closest to mainline (black poly), that allows you to shut off line to the bush.

The second black tap is right in front of the intake of the pump. Close off that tap and open both other taps you are on gravity, no pump needed.

The fun part now.......with the bush tap open and the intake tap open, ever so slightly, just a smidge, open the gravity line tap,,,,It will suck from your collection barrel, just allow a tiny tiny bit of sap to enter from collection barrel. This will make the pump happy and pull stronger in the mainline. Fine tune the handle for the perfect sap/air ratio.

There is no reason to grab sap from collection barrel is sap is running good. I only suck sap from collection barrel to avoid pump from long dry running times,, slow sap times.

Hope that makes sense.

[bcarpenter]

I use a 4048. Not the cheapest route, but it's in its 2nd season with no issues. I have a write up off the parts and pieces with costs on my website. I am curious what everyone else uses. I just bought a second one from Amazon with the strainer for $160 ish.

Bill C.



I see a lot of you are using the shurflo pump and I'm interested IV got about 300 feet of 1/2 main with 60 taps on gravity,runs real good but I want more lol. So what does everybody recommend I see a lot use a 2088 model is that the best and we're is the cheapest place to get them?



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[boondocker]

I use three 4008. I get mine from a close friend who owns a RV store right local to me. I think retail on them is somewhere around $116.00 plus the filter Wich I think is about $12.00.

[CampHamp]

CampHamp. I will be using a shurflo this year for first time. I have a thermostat like yours and am wondering what you have your settings programmed to.
I start up at 1C and stop at -2C.

I let the sap freeze before stopping the pump so that no sap flows beyond the screen, otherwise it will become ice and potentially hurt the pump when switched on. Also, running the pump into the freeze leaves some vacuum locked in the tubing and might help get things started the next day before the ice fully clears. Some folks keep a light in their pump-box and don't need to worry about over-night ice.

To set the turn ON temp, just press SET and +/-. "Hysteresis" is the change in temperature allowed before shutting OFF, so in my case it is 3 degrees -- to set this one you hold the SET until you see P0 then hit + for P1, then hit SET and +/-.

[CampHamp]

Hope that makes sense. Yes - got it. I have free ports on my mainline to accept a 5/16 right near my tank. It may happen this coming week...

[nekmaple]

Any difference in vac between 4008 and 4048?

[gmc8757]

What do you guys use for connecting the pump to a 1/2in mainline? I use a 1/2 barb to threaded 1/2in but I can't get a good seal on the barb. I tried heating the pipe and using two hose clamps. I see there is a very slight leak right on the barb. I'd like to fix this.


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[CampHamp]

I see a lot of you are using the shurflo pump and I'm interested IV got about 300 feet of 1/2 main with 60 taps on gravity,runs real good but I want more lol. So what does everybody recommend I see a lot use a 2088 model is that the best and we're is the cheapest place to get them?
I think the 2088 is replaced by model 4008. Cheapest prices I see are Amazon $60 or EBay $54. I use the 12V 4048 - it has a larger motor, but as others mentioned, it may not provide any vacuum benefit (someone on this thread might do a comparison soon).

[CampHamp]

What do you guys use for connecting the pump to a 1/2in mainline?

I got my fittings from Bascoms. They used to sell straight fittings but now only carry this elbow (https://www.bascommaple.com/item/mee05/mainline_fittings/). I use the elbow for sap transfers but use straight ones for the vacuum pump.

[derekp]

I'm using a 2088...haven't been able to get past 12" yet but haven't had a good run either...checked all my laterals and connections today and everything is tight...not sure if the pump just isn't enough power compared to the 4048..I haven't looked at the specs to compare..if I were to buy another, I would go with the 4048, seems like people have better luck with them!!

[gmc8757]

I got my fittings from Bascoms. They used to sell straight fittings but now only carry this elbow (https://www.bascommaple.com/item/mee05/mainline_fittings/). I use the elbow for sap transfers but use straight ones for the vacuum pump.

That was my problem, I got my fittings from a local hardware store. I should have got them from a maple dealer. Thanks


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[bcarpenter]

All those gray fittings can be found at Lowes at the back wall of the store by the water pumps, that is unless someone like myself buys them out before the season starts. They have a great selection for 1/2" and 3/4" and some fittings that go 1/2" to 3/4". I get my valves from Home Depot and my cam locks from tractor supply. It's a pain in the butt, but they are all local stores for me.


That was my problem, I got my fittings from a local hardware store. I should have got them from a maple dealer. Thanks


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[gmc8757]

Just wanted to share what I did for my shurflo setup (using a seaflo pump). At first I was thinking of doing the same as you with the battery and charger but got thinking of a way to do it slightly cheaper.

For my first setup I used a temperature controller wired up to some relays. When the temperature was below freezing, it would turn on a light bulb inside my storage bin. Above freezing it would turn on the pump. It works great, but then saw this device that does exactly what I was doing except no wiring, relays etc involved. A lot cleaner install. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011296704?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

I use an old computer power supply, take the yellow and black wire (which gives me 12 volts) and connect this to the pump. I plug the power supply into the cooling outlet of the controller above. I wired a light bulb and plug that into the heating outlet of the controller. Plug the controller into power, set the temperature and I'm all set. No battery, no charger, no relay, a lot less wiring and quite a bit cheaper. I will post some pics of my first one compared to my second one.

[gmc8757]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160301/2a98916969e77a4852b03ff22b1b395c.jpg

This is a pic of the setup I explained above. Depending on how the valves are set, I can use the pump to pump it out of the collection tank


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[TerryEspo]

I second the motion about be able to pump OUT of collection tank.
It is wonderful and nothing to disconnect.

I love my 2088, second year, no issues, no vacuum gauge but think it works very well.

[boondocker]

I see you guys run battery chargers in your pump boxes, unfortunately I don't have the luxury of 110v at my sugarbush, so I just use the battery itself. I work In the marine industry and I just use group 24 deep cycle marine batteries. Mine will run for close to 10 days without a charge. The pumps are only cycling and building vacuum, it's when they have a head pressure that they start to work hard. I ran mine for three 8 hour days and checked my voltage and they where still at 12.6 v. So you guys who want to set up shurflo systems I wouldn't worry to much about having electricity at the pump box.

[DaveB]

GMC...I bought one of those Inkbird units for one of my setups and am having trouble with it. How did you configure it?

[gmc8757]

GMC...I bought one of those Inkbird units for one of my setups and am having trouble with it. How did you configure it?

Hi Dave. These are the settings that work for me. I plug my light bulb into the heat outlet and my pump to the cool outlet. https://vimeo.com/157372894



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[CampHamp]

Just wanted to share what I did for my shurflo setup (using a seaflo pump). At first I was thinking of doing the same as you with the battery and charger but got thinking of a way to do it slightly cheaper.

For my first setup I used a temperature controller wired up to some relays. When the temperature was below freezing, it would turn on a light bulb inside my storage bin. Above freezing it would turn on the pump. It works great, but then saw this device that does exactly what I was doing except no wiring, relays etc involved. A lot cleaner install. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011296704?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Thanks for posting this type of setup. I like the light feature! I read that some ac/dc adapters and chargers don't produce a round sine wave and can damage motors, but I wonder how a computer supply output behaves. Maybe these have a rectified wave and respond dynamically to power demand. How many amps is it rated for? How long has it been running and how does your pump sound (esp at start-up)?

[gmc8757]

I'm using a 200w power supply. So at 12v, its producing just over 16w - the should take what it needs. I've only been running for 10 days or so. Pump does sound normal. Good question about sine wave...I could absolutely be wrong here, but I think pure/modified sine wave is more of an issue when trying to go from dc to ac. I'm going from ac to dc. Again, that's just a guess. I did run into the pure sine wave issue once when trying to run an ac circulator on a ups battery backup a couple of years ago. It would not run until I got a pure sine wave ups.


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[maplestudent]

I'd like to know more about this ac/dc adapter sine wave stuff. I used a PC power supply last year and it worked well. I had to rebuild my pump enclosure this year because mice took up residence in it over the summer and it was....disgusting (I'll use moth balls this year). I kept a couple of power adapters when I returned some cable TV boxes....they output 2.67 amps. I hooked one up to my 4008 and it seems to run just like it did last year, however I'd rather not ruin it.

I also hooked one up to a small 12v pump I use to transfer sap.....wasn't enough (it was twitching) so I cleaned up the PC power supply and tried that and it worked fine, though it's kind of a pain in the butt lugging a PC power supply around. I don't pretend to be an electrical engineer, or even close. Later when I looked at the pump manual I noticed it needed 2.8 amps minimum. I may try to use the 12v port on my ATV for the transfer pump.....if anyone has any suggestions or warnings I'd sure be open to reading them.

[CampHamp]

I'd like to know more about this ac/dc adapter sine wave stuff. I used a PC power supply last year and it worked well. I had to rebuild my pump enclosure this year because mice took up residence in it over the summer and it was....disgusting (I'll use moth balls this year). I kept a couple of power adapters when I returned some cable TV boxes....they output 2.67 amps. I hooked one up to my 4008 and it seems to run just like it did last year, however I'd rather not ruin it.

I also hooked one up to a small 12v pump I use to transfer sap.....wasn't enough (it was twitching) so I cleaned up the PC power supply and tried that and it worked fine, though it's kind of a pain in the butt lugging a PC power supply around. I don't pretend to be an electrical engineer, or even close. Later when I looked at the pump manual I noticed it needed 2.8 amps minimum. I may try to use the 12v port on my ATV for the transfer pump.....if anyone has any suggestions or warnings I'd sure be open to reading them.

I don't know this stuff either and 10 minute googling doesn't offer any clear answers. I'll read more tonight, got boiling to do!

[Biz]

The sine wave or modified sine wave stuff only relates to DC to AC adaptors, like if you are converting from battery voltage (DC) to 110 volts AC. For AC to DC, does not apply.

Dave

[eustis22]

is it necessary to install a switch or can I alligator clamp directly to my battery?

[derekp]

Just an update on my 2088 setup. The last little run I had I got it up to 16" of vac. I added more slope on the line coming into the pump and the vac really picked up. I also made sure my strainer was inverted that way the inlet and outlet of the strainer was constantly submerged in sap. It seemed that there was an air bubble that built up in the strainer and wasn't letting the diaphragm stay wet. Once inverted, you could hear the difference in the pump and I started getting a constant steam of sap on the outlet line plus a big jump in vac.. Figured I would share my situation for others that may be having some of the same issues that I did..I am going to add a recirculating line to my tank to see if it helps add vac as described in this thread. Season should really kick in next week for me so I can experiment more with the setup. Again, thanks for everyone's input and knowledge on the subject!!!

[mellondome]

If you add the recirculation line, put it on the woods side if the strainer.

[Super Sapper]

I use an alligator clip on mine.

[maplestudent]

Thanks Biz for that sine wave info.

With the current cold weather, this may be a good opportunity to re-plumb my manifold in order to add valves for each run and a recirculating line.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.

[Biz]

Here is a pic of my Shurflow setup, version #2. Some of the details are below for anyone interested....

Sap comes in on the right through a 3/16" line, into a 3-way motorized ball valve. When temp is warm, after a delay, and battery is OK, the valve directs sap to the pump and pump turns on and pumps sap out the lower pipe to the storage tank. When temp is cold or battery voltage is low, the pump turns off and the valve switches to bypass sap (via gravity) through the upper 3/16" tubing which can go to the same gathering tank or a smaller one. It also has the ability to use the vacuum pump as a transfer pump to pump out the storage tank into a gathering tank - there are two manual ball valves and hose attachments for this (not shown in this photo). The controller monitors temperature, battery voltage, and displays pump run time and other status. The ON and OFF buttons at the top allow me to override the controls, for example if it is running but trees have stopped giving sap, I can tell it to turn off in order to conserve battery power, but restart after temperature has gone below freezing (night) then warms back up. Or I can force it on. Another button lets me see the past several run times and turn-off conditions (low temp or low batt). The unit can detect if the pump has jammed or stalled and shut down and try again later. It has a programmable warmup timer so I can tell it to start after temperature has warmed up above a certain point (I use 36 degrees) for a certain length of time. The warmup time is longer if it was really cold the night before, since the trees will take longer to thaw out. Mine is powered with a marine grade battery with solar charger. The intent is that it can be left unattended in remote locations, without fear of freezeup damage, running excessively on battery, or blocking sap flow for any reason (assuming some gravity flow). I am gathering data this year, if anybody is interested in something like this for next season or wants to learn more, send me a PM. So far it has been working out exceptionally well. I am able to more than double sap production on this line compared to an adjacent one on 3/16" gravity.

Dave


13498

[CampHamp]

The sine wave or modified sine wave stuff only relates to DC to AC adaptors, like if you are converting from battery voltage (DC) to 110 volts AC. For AC to DC, does not apply.

Dave

Yes, the sine wave comment was from out my butt, sorry!

I read-up on this a bit more. DC current should remain a flat, steady voltage line. Some power supplies produce variable voltage (intentionally for charging or in reaction to current draw), 'pulsed DC' current (this is the oscilloscope pic I remember seeing for battery chargers and thought it should be smoothed sine wave -- but that was wrong it should just be a flat line) or can be overloaded by spike demand. I was considering using my battery charger directly on my pump and read issues about why this is a bad idea:

Car batterys are a very modest load when it comes to the demands the charge current has to meet. They do not mind if they are "hammered at" by a pulsed, non-filtered current from a cheap charger. ... Thus, I advise against using it to power 12V equipment.

And this...

Car battery chargers have a tendency to put out really dirty DC and there have been reports of damaged chargers as a result of this. Some are better than others in this regard and you may use a 12V battery as a buffer to smooth out the power form. Even an old battery removed from a car usually suffices.

However, if the device isn't designed as a charger but as a power supply, then it should be putting out a clean, flat current if the amps drawn are within the supply's rated range. I saw this caution about computer power supplies:

There are plenty of articles on converting an ordinary PC power supply to a 12Volt high Amp supply and this has the advantage of low cost and many of us have done it. But there are a couple of disadvantages:

1) It involves opening a (potentially lethal) supply and modifying it, using external load resistors or changing the voltage sensing circuit, which is simple enough but outside many modeller's comfort zone.
2) The performance is generally woeful at high current because of poor regulation unless an expensive high-end supply is used thus defeating the low cost part. The most common way to do the conversion is to put a load resistor on the 5Volt output since these supplies are designed to maintain the voltage on the 3.3 and 5V lines which feed the motherboard. The bigger the load, the better the regulation but that also produces significant heat.

My typical converted cheap 550Watt PC supply drops to 10.5 Volts at 20 Amps.

In general, I expect these pumps would be much more tolerant of varying voltage than appliances that have sensitive circuit boards and these computer supplies should switch off if over-drawn, so that should be OK. Just remember they have large capacitors that may not ground-out when shut off.

[CampHamp]

Dave - cool components in there. That is the world's smartest lateral!!! What is the controller device (maker, cost)? Does it have its own thermostat? I guess most people would want to control their mainline with this instead of a single lateral, but that would just mean larger ports on the valve, I guess?

[Biz]

It is a general purpose programmable microcontroller IC on a PC board that I designed. The thermostat is a temperature sensor with programmable turn-on and turn-off setpoints set in software. Valve is 1/2" with reducers to adapt to my line which is 3/16" (21 taps on a single line), but a 1/2" or larger mainline can be used too, with larger valve size if necessary.

Dave

[Waynehere]

For those of you that use the Shurflo 2088 or 8000 series 12v, I just had one that had the end bearing go in it. I found these here if interested. The cap also includes the brushes, which from what I understand will wear out after a few seasons.

http://www.systemacc.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_367_368/products_id/2539?osCsid=735f062c267e1d0dca4e8affe68dc874

[jmayerl]

http://youtu.be/rAImPhtywJ8

I attached a video of my 3/16 set up with 6 lines that come to a manifold and then into a 2088 Shurflo. Before hooking up the pump I had 22" at the top of the lines and a trickle of sap. After the pump I was at 27-28" and was flowing a gallon every 7.5 minutes. Just need vac gauge on the manifold and it's all set. The 3/16 only has about 25' of drop from the top to tote so the pump really helps with the lower taps.

[maplestudent]

question for those that recirculate sap in order to help create vacuum: is the sap supply from which you recirculate higher or lower than the pump? my setup has the tubing coming in from the woods just slightly above pump, which discharges into storage that is lower than the pump. I get the impression from some of the pics I've seen that possibly some of you pump up into storage......maybe....and therefore you have sap higher than the pump. is that correct?

[CampHamp]

I just tried this recirculating technique today (thanks Terry!). It works! Slow start and cloudy with 10", still some ice. After I let some sap into my mainline (just using a nearby saddle I added a 5/16 lateral with valve) it got the pump all serious and within 10 minutes of fiddling, I had 18". Things were still slow to start flowing, but with an extra 10", I'm sure it accelerated the process (and helped melt ice in the mainline near the pump). Pretty cool...

maplestudent, my pump is lower than the top of my tank and higher than the base. So I had to suck sap up, over the rim.

[derekp]

Great news Jamie! I'm going to drill in a new saddle right before my pump with a 5/16 line into my tank...just have to wait for the ice to melt in my tank! Hopefully things will start to thaw out here tomorrow!

[maplestudent]

Thanks for that info Jamie. I've got to try that

[eustis22]

ok, I am not using my shurflo 4088s to createb vacuum but just to pump my buckets into my holding tank so forgive me if this is off topic. I am having a lot of problems keeping these pumps running. The first one this season just stopped working after 3 sessions. I dismantled it and washed all the diaphragms and replaced the in-line fuse and checked the wires and....nothing. When I complained to the vendor (ebay purchase) he sent me another one gratis. All well and good. The first time I used the replacement it worked great. Then, when I attempted to do my usual flushing with clean water so the sap doesn't sticky up the works, it couldn't lift the water all the way (2 feet, maybe less) from the bucket to the pump. it stopped about 3 inches shy of the pump itself. I thought maybe my battery was under charged so I hooked the charger up and the same thing happened. The distance from the pump to my holding tank is 5 feet, maybe less and the head on this is supposed to be 6 feet. What could be the root cause? This is the 4th pump in two seasons (2 FloJets, 2 ShurFlos) and I am getting a bit frustrated.

[Super Sapper]

If your pump is running and not pulling the liwuid up far enough you either have a bad diaphragm or the check valves are leaking. You could also have a leak from a loose or cracked fitting.

[blurr95]

For those that are doing the recirculation with your pumps, can one of you draw a diagram of how it is plummed. I am having a hard time seeing it in my head. I am going to add a shurflo and holding tank next year.

Thanks Jason

[CampHamp]

If your pump is running and not pulling the liwuid up far enough you either have a bad diaphragm or the check valves are leaking. You could also have a leak from a loose or cracked fitting. I agree - check the inlet connections (perhaps try without the screen fitting). You could also put liquid in the outlet tube (holding in in there going uphill) then see if air is bubbling through.

[CampHamp]

For those that are doing the recirculation with your pumps, can one of you draw a diagram of how it is plummed. I am having a hard time seeing it in my head. I am going to add a shurflo and holding tank next year.

Thanks Jason
I had a free "port" on my mainline saddle near the pump, so I used it like this picture shows. You can see how Terry has hose connection on manifolds he installed near the pump. You'll need a valve to control the flow or perhaps obstruct the intake on 5/16 (and plug when trees are running).
13639

[maplestudent]

My lines are all 5/16", with two main runs that come into a manifold just before the pump. The blue lines represent the manifold. Red lines indicate the recirculating line (which I have not yet put in). I'm going to try diagram 1 first, recirculating from my storage, which is entirely below the pump. If need be, I'll try diagram 2, which would be sap in a bucket that I raise above my pump.

Diagram 3 is what I imagine someone doing that has a single mainline to the pump.

13644

[maplestudent]

by the way, I have no idea what the correct plumbing symbols are....I made those up, so don't rake me over the coals for it. lol.

[blurr95]

Thanks for the replies and diagrams. I had finally figured it out on the way back from taking our dog to the vet. So you would use the recirculation line only when the trees aren't running very well, then valve the recirculation line of when the trees are running good. So many things I am learning on here to use for next year, I am trying to keep everything strait.

Thanks Jason

[derekp]

13660

Hooked this up today as a test..you can see the line going to the saddle from the bottom of the tank...I def need a small valve, the flow was too much and it actually reduced the vac on my whole system by a few inches..I plugged the end and am running it normal right now..sap is just starting to flow a bit...

[NJG]

What have people been using for a valve on the re-circulation line?

[derekp]

13664

I made this with some left over parts I had laying around..it's a 3/8 valve but a 1/4 would work too..the poly pieces I got from my local maple supplier. They are made to go directly on vac gauges and straight to 5/16. Going to install it right now..

[bcarpenter]

For those that are doing the recirculation with your pumps, can one of you draw a diagram of how it is plummed. I am having a hard time seeing it in my head. I am going to add a shurflo and holding tank next year.

Thanks Jason

Here is my set up in photos. I shut the valve off that goes to the woods temporarily crack the tank valve and have the other valve that feeds into my main line wide open. You crack the tank valve until you hear water flowing into tank. Then I open the woods valve all the way.

Bill C.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/2bb4f3d154c0cbdd0791c93dfb057ffd.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/801907c0e62aadec041621c3bb113666.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/f2cc853f6c37b48bdf57c4715968c482.jpg


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[boondocker]

This is one of my setups....I just remove the pump at night and put a piece of pipe in between so it will continue to flow on gravity. 1369113692

[steviepap]

Hi guys, I am reading through the posts and trying to figure out how to rig my 3/16 gravity lines to the Shur-flo systems like you. I am reading that some of you are using AC battery chargers to battery to Shur-flo pump. If you have AC power to your pumping site, could you skip the charger and battery and just use a 20 amp AC to DC power supply? The company I work for supplies one to the OEM hot tub industry to run 12 volt components on the tub (stereo, lighting, etc). They are fairly cheap ($50).

[gmc8757]

Absolutely, that's what I do. I use a computer supply that does exactly what you are looking to do.


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[sweetvt]

This is one of my setups....I just remove the pump at night and put a piece of pipe in between so it will continue to flow on gravity. 1369113692

Boondocker,or any one else, what kind of deep cycle battery would a set up like yours require? Are they available through eBay or Amazon? Guesstimate on prices?

[maplestudent]

I also used a computer power supply, last year. A couple of people had posted (last year) that the power draw they measured was about 2 amps, do this year I tried a power adapter that outputs 2.67 amps (repurposed from a cable TV box) and it has worked fine (same pump I used last year)

[CampHamp]

We were recently chatting about using a PSU instead of battery/charger on another thread. The benefits in the battery/charger option is operating in a power outage, the ability to use cheaper power supplies (lower amps and pulsed-DC output) or if you already have those components lying around. If you have a regulated power supply able to hit the pump's max amps, then you will have a more compact pump station using a PSU. Unregulated supplies will output a range of voltage depending on the current draw (if it is rated for 20 amps and you use only 2 amps, then unregulated supplies would output too high a voltage).

[MISugarDaddy]

NEIL,

I am using deep cycle batteries I got from Walmart for about $100. Two are new this year and one is 8 years old. I have allowed all 3 to run for 24 hours straight this year and are still going strong at the end of the period. I would have run them longer, but the sap had stopped flowing. I think Walmart sells two deep cycle batteries, I bought the larger of the two because it was less than $10 difference and had a lot more capacity.

Gary

[sweetvt]

MIsugardaddy, thanks for info, so it sounds like one deep cycle battery could power a surflow pump for each run and having two would allow swapping out and recharging which is what I was hoping for. Also, congrats on that beautiful looking sugar house setup, that is top notch!

[Clinkis]

A good deep cycle battery will usually last around 36 hours of running so depending on conditions you can usually get a couple days between charges. If sap is really running heavy the pump works harder and will run down a little quicker. Last year a tried using a regular car battery on one of my pumps and by the end of the season it wouldn't last 4 hours. Couldn't handle the draining and recharging apparently.

[Super Sapper]

I run 2088's on deep cycle batteries from Menards. After one day it will be down to 65%, I changed one out yesterday that would running for the last 2 days and it was at 40%. They do shut down when below freezing and start back up at around 34. I have run them 3 days straight without a freeze and they didn't run out of juice.