BB4 vacuum pump

[maple flats]

I'm just hooking up a BB4 pump. How do I tell how much oil is in it? Once I find that out, I'll bring it up to level, then run it about 30 minutes, drain it and then put fresh oil in to spec. There is some sort of tube that ties a lower port to an upper port. I can't ee thru it, but I suspect it may show the oil level. What kind of tubing it it, just vinyl? The pump does pull vacuum, but I didn't let it run long enough to see how much it will pull. Without knowing the oil issue I only let it run about 5 seconds. Help anyone? Breezy, are you familiar with these?

[Mark-NH]

Dave,

My SP-11 says that the oil level should be at a certain level on the sight glass. I think it is 3/8" up the glass. Pump is not here now so I can't verify. I used clear plastic tubing for my sight glass as there was no sight glass when I bought it.

Mark

[Bolen Creek]

I believe it is 2 quarts for Sp22 and bb4. Sp 11 are 1 quart. I believe it's is 3/8 inch in clear sight glass on bb4 to its just a bigger crank case so it takes more oil to get it up that far.

[maple flats]

I haven't yet, but I'll try to clean the lower section of the vertical tube to see if I can see thru it. At the bottom is a T with a plug in the end. That is likely the drain. Maybe some engine cleaner might cut thru the grime without degrading the vinyl tubing. Looking at it yesterday, I think it looked like a tube up from that T a few inches, then a section of vinyl? tubing connecting that to another tube going the rest of the way up to a T near the top. From there one side of that T points up and has a breather on it, the other goes into the pump body or head.

[markcasper]

The sight tube when it gets old gets very hard and impossible to see through. May think its vinyl, its not, just replace with a short piece of clear milk tubing. Also, 3/8" up in the tube from the bottom is what mine all say.

[BreezyHill]

Sorry flats didn't see this thread before today.
trying to down load the pic to the site...not working for some reason. I will keep trying...

In the pic you will see a similar setup as you describe but this is the original repair. The sight tube is glass and black epdm type tube on the top that is clamped and a copper sleeve on the bottom. The glass slips over the male closeup nipple in the tee. The threads were wrapped with a cotton thread an that was coated with lanolin. Now days I think you could use Vaseline if you don't have a sheep herd near by.

Finally the pics loaded.

13125

The unit is over filled some as it is in storage. This was the last pump my grandfather milked with in 1968. Some day it will be put back into service and a video of it working for future generations to see. She is still turnable by hand and needs some touchup paint.

13124

This is the tag on the old girl and it says 1/2" on a BB4. The sp-11 does say 3/8" and I can upload that one if somebody wants to see it.

Degreaser will likely eat the milk tube so try a tooth brush with WD-40 first and if that does not work then just change the tube. You have several dairy places around you. In Morrisville there is a Dairy parts dealer. Or pm me and I can get my son or his girlfriend to get a piece from the school dairy farm and drop it off to you.

Cody had a funny story...one of the degreasers at NAPA is used at school to eat the gaskets out of the carburetors to make them easier to take apart. Soaked it for the lecture part of class and for lab the gaskets were gone and the screws spun right out.

Some where I have a box of those glass tubes and several feed customers with sheep so I will try to put a care package together for you for when we go to a Lax game at Moville.

[wiam]

Breezy;
On my so-22 there is a ring on the tube as in your picture. The ring will slide up and down on the clear tube. Is full at the top of the ring or at the 1/2 or 3/8 above the ring?

[BreezyHill]

Dad always said," a little extra oil is fine but a little low and you will be back to rebuild the pump."

I would think 1/2" in the tube above the nipple, or if yours says 3/8" then...

The difference of 1/8" in the tube will not make that much of a difference if extra; but to low by an 1/8 could be the splashers not get as much oil up on to the cylinder walls, and the shaft bearings not running in oil deep enough.

[tcross]

I have a bb4 and run my oil barely above the half way mark on the tube. when I first got it I ran it 3/4 up the tube for a season not knowing better. I never had any issues with it! it's been a very nice and reliable pump!

[maple flats]

Thanks Breezy, that first picture looks like it. I guess the tube clamped there isn't dirty to make it look black, it is black under the dirt too. I'll wipe the glass tube clean and then make sure I have 1/2" or maybe 5/8" showing before I run it much. Then after it gets warm, I'll drain it and fill it to the right height with fresh vacuum oil and run it. While I know it generates vacuum, I didn't dare run it long enough not knowing the oil situation so I don't know how much vacuum I can get. Is there a max. I should try for on this, or just run it as high as it can get? On my Alamo with a Surge vacuum tank I regulate it to 19". I'm hoping for 25+ on this one, which is on a releaser. My BB4 has some of the label you show, but less than half, the rest is missing and the part I have is not very legible, I can only make out a few words.

[BreezyHill]

I would be careful running to high especially if running higher vac readings. The splashers that get the oil up on the cylinder wall will not splash as well if the oil level is to high. Another issue is you are stressing the cam shaft running it through more oil than resigned.

There is a bug difference between and 1/8 of an inch and 1/2 of an inch above the recommended height.

[BreezyHill]

This is a little different setup pump so if you ran it to 160 degrees max I would be comfortable. My bb models never got very hot. And the last sp-11 I worked on was pulling 26 when she left and the owner said she was pulling 28 two days later and 28 this season already.

I really like these pumps but cant stand that sound they make... that thumping noise gets to me and hen I am running the radio to loud and end up putting ear plugs in.

But that is far better than the squeal that some of the new pumps make. I have had to cut a visit short due to that noise.

[maple flats]

I'm not saying 1/2" above recommended, I'm saying 1/2" showing in the glass, or maybe 5/8. Am I mis-interpretting what you are saying?

[BreezyHill]

I'm not saying 1/2" above recommended, I'm saying 1/2" showing in the glass, or maybe 5/8. Am I mis-interpretting what you are saying?

not you another thread that was judging height in the tube.

My fear is a repair done with vacuum tubing that is larger than original glass height and then filling 1/2 way up the tube...that could be a couple of inches to much oil. I have seen some pretty unorthodox repairs that farmers and others have made...for them it worked fine but the second owner often had no idea what to do and $hit happens fast with to much oil. It can be just like having no oil.

Please don't think I was second guessing you Dave. Common sense is just not as common as it once was.

Hand a kid a wedge nut for a wheel and see what he does. 8 out of 10 will ask how does this go on, the other two, one will put it on wrong and just wouldn't ask cause they didn't want to look stupid. They had a 50:50 chance of being right.

Its like the guy that thru snow on the hot pump. If I did that it would be split in pieces. He didn't know better and it was fine. Go figure.

[PARKER MAPLE]

not you another thread that was judging height in the tube.

My fear is a repair done with vacuum tubing that is larger than original glass height and then filling 1/2 way up the tube...that could be a couple of inches to much oil. I have seen some pretty unorthodox repairs that farmers and others have made...for them it worked fine but the second owner often had no idea what to do and $hit happens fast with to much oil. It can be just like having no oil.

Please don't think I was second guessing you Dave. Common sense is just not as common as it once was.

Hand a kid a wedge nut for a wheel and see what he does. 8 out of 10 will ask how does this go on, the other two, one will put it on wrong and just wouldn't ask cause they didn't want to look stupid. They had a 50:50 chance of being right.

Its like the guy that thru snow on the hot pump. If I did that it would be split in pieces. He didn't know better and it was fine. Go figure.

How many taps will a sp11 handle on a tight system? I just acquired a nice one last week for free..

[lpakiz]

I have about 200 taps, and with my SP 11 and a tight releaser, I can hold at 27 HG. Everything must be TIGHT. I had a Bender on the same system and on a good day, I got 23. That little leak on a Bender caused the SP-11 to lose that much vacuum.
Interestingly, the average on those taps for several years was 3000 gallons of sap per season, more or less, with 22 inches HG. Last year, with 27, I got over 5000. Those last few inches really make the difference.
So how many taps can a SP-11 handle? At least 200, but I probably wouldn't attempt more than 350-400.

[PARKER MAPLE]

Can someone give me the specs? Cfms ect? This little pump,is great. I'm considering putting it on my 600 tap bush that's on gravity and seeing what happens.

[maple flats]

On the BB4, what sort of seal or gasket is supposed to seal the glass tube that shows the oil level. After wiping it clean (dry paper towel) I found that the oil was above the bottom of the black tube, up in the glass tube. I loosened the 2 clamps that hold the black EDPM tube between the glass tube and the nipple above that goes into the bottom of the larger Tee that is above it. When I slide the black hose up I did not realize the glass was stuck to it, and just a gentle lift on the black tube pulled the glass up some. When I noticed it was going up with the black hose, I stopped. Then I held the glass tube and raised the black tube a little more. I found the oil level was about 1.25" above the metal ring at the bottom of the glass tube. I then slid the glass down as far as it gently seemed to want to go. I then drained the base enough that the oil level was below the 1/2" mark and I put in enough new vacuum oil to get to the 1/2". Then I checked to make sure the 2 clamps on the black tube were tight. Then I started the pump. I run well and seems fairly quiet. I checked the vacuum level, it was reading 13". I then checked for leaks and at the far end of the main (about 700', 1" line) I discovered my crew from early Jan. had installed about 10 saddles but never attached the laterals to them. I connected them and the vacuum then read 22" at the far end. I went back to the pump and the gauge read 23". Then I noticed that a slow drip was falling from the fitting that the glass tube was seated in.
What sort of a seal should it be? can it be tightened? How can I seal that? I believe it is coming up around the glass tube from below. What is my fix?

[maple flats]

Just a side note. As I checked for leaks I thought I had lots of leaks at my 2 sap ladders, in fact I removed on and rebuilt it, no change. At that point I was going to ask when I got home, if anyone was getting some bad star fittings. I (I use a CDL leak detector) could hear a lot of air rushing at the stars, sounded like big leaks. Then I worked my way to the far end of the main, where I discovered the 10 saddles that had not gotten the laterals attached to them. After fixing that, I went back past the sap ladder and there were no leaks. It seems the huge rush of air entering the saddles upstream made it sound like big leaks at the sap ladder. I guess from now on, for my initial checks I'll want to start at the far end and work back to the releaser, that way I won't be tearing apart anything trying to fix it when I'm hearing air rush thru a perfectly good connection farther out the main. I wasted about 40 minutes "fixing what did not need fixing".

[BreezyHill]

How many taps will a sp11 handle on a tight system? I just acquired a nice one last week for free..

Sorry didn't get any email response on this thread.

I ran a bb2 which is very near the 11 on 475 on a relatively tight sytem with no problems but past that I would not get the same vac level so we switch to another pump.

[BreezyHill]

Flats,
What is the fitting the glass tube is sliding onto?

The ladders will amplify the sound of rushing air due to the amount of turbulence it will create from the fittings.

I would still work my way from releaser to the end of the main. If you set the instrument or your ear to the main on large leaks you should still hear the air in the main.

Middle son and I were tapping yesterday and found that we hade several taps that lost their plugs and were leaking. Vac had started at 5 and went to 15 after finding a tree fell and damaged a main. Then to 19 after repairing a few new squirrel sites. After find those taps we were up to 26.

Currently I am not happy with the peroxide results this year. Last season things were supper clean and this year more buggers than ever. But we were also warmer than last year and last season there was no squirrel damage. Several trees on the mains, so lose saddles also thru the warm weather. Even a few laterals were torn apart.

How has the cdl leak finder worked on tiny leaks?

Ben

[maple flats]

Ben,
Yes, I figured out what it was after I got to the end of the main and found the 10 or so saddles my help had installed and had not connected to the laterals.
The fitting the glass tube goes into looks like a 4 way cross (likely black iron or maybe galv) with the side facing up showing a brass ring about 3/8" visible at the mouth of the cross fitting. The glass tube slid easily up and down thru the brass ring and into the 4 way cross. The other 3 sides, 1 goes into the base of the pump and 2 are plugged for drains I presume. I only removed the side plug to lower the oil level. Then I added some fresh vacuum oil to get it to 1/2" up in the glass tube.
It look like your picture in reply #6 to this thread except it appears to be brass, while the pic looks more like aluminum or such.

[markcasper]

Can someone give me the specs? Cfms ect? This little pump,is great. I'm considering putting it on my 600 tap bush that's on gravity and seeing what happens. It is rated 5.5 CFM. You are good to 550 taps if kept tight.

[BreezyHill]

I know people running sp 11 on 500-600 with no issues. Mine didn't keep the reading up when I got past 500.

Free pump give her a try and see what she does for you.

[maple flats]

I think I found the leak, or at least a significant leak. I wiped the glass and the lower portion of the hose that runs from the sight glass to a nipple straight up from the sight glass. Then I added a little oil and a seep then showed on the back side of the black hose just above the lower clamp. I got a piece of hydraulic return hose and replaced it. Then I brought the oil level back up to 1/2" showing and ran the pump for about 1/2 hour, no leaks (but no sap either at 23" vacuum and 35 degrees out.) In the 30 minutes or so it never dumped once and my double horizontal Sobles releaser only dumps about 3-3.5 gal/side. That main is on 75 taps.
Now that I have the oil leak solved, I'll add my next main to it, hopefully tomorrow. The trees are all tapped I just need to build a sap ladder and then transport the sap up about 12' and then across a driveway and about 50' total to the releaser. That main only has about 45-50 taps, I'll need to get an accurate count when I check for leaks. Then I may only add 1 more main this season and 1 more for next year. That last one will be about 800' and will need 3 sap ladders for a total lift of about 25-30'. It needs that many to cross 3 woods roads, otherwise I could do it in 2 ladders. Then I need to plan out another main or 2 to pick up more reds and silvers in a wetter area farther from the sugarhouse. Somehow I also think I missed a small group of reds in by my best area of sugars, that will get added this year if indeedthey got missed.

[BreezyHill]

13274132751327613277

the taller gray line indicates the CFM reading for the vac reading on the gauge.

The fewer the leakes the more taps you can handle, but one drop off a tap can drop your reading a bunch if close to the releaser.

[PARKER MAPLE]

I know people running sp 11 on 500-600 with no issues. Mine didn't keep the reading up when I got past 500.

Free pump give her a try and see what she does for you.

Well I was forced to explore what this pump could do last weekend. Do to the motor running my big liemen pump gave up,on my. There is 1187 taps there and sap was running, I plumbed it in and turned it on. It went right to 22", then we went leak hunting. I found a few good leaks and it was pulling 23-24". I was very excited. It ran and held that vac for the entire run of apprx 36hrs. I gathered 1800+ gallons of sap on Sunday and another 450 on Monday. What a sweet little pump. I'm also impressed that my wet/dry lines paid off and the sap ladder was working perfect. 2400' from releaser still 22"..
Now I'm considering converting the big liemen to a gas powered unit. Then installing it in my remote woods. Also keeping my eyes open for a sp22..
Great pump
PM

[BreezyHill]

No question about it you have a tight system.

Great Job!

[maple flats]

I ran my BB4 pump yesterday for 4 hours before I went to check on it. I had only gotten about 15 gal of sap off the main with initially 25" of vacuum (that is light flow but not unreasonable because that main only has 75 taps on it). When I returned the pump exhaust had a lot of oil smoke it it. I shut it down. I checked the pump temp by dropping a tiny bit of snow on it, it melted right away, but then the 3-4 drops worth of water sat there without evaporating for over an hour. I guess the pump was not too hot anyways. Then I opened the oil port to drain the base and add fresh oil. I only got about 4 ounces out. I had started with the level at 1/2" above the top of the brass ring that the glass site tube fits into, as per directions from this forum. I will check tomorrow to verify that nothing is blocking the base from draining. This got me wondering. I called my local Surge dealer and talked with a guy who was familiar with these pumps. However he could not recall how much oil it should hold. He told me to call back today and he would look it up in an old service manual and give me the oil capacity. When I called the answer was that it holds 2.5 qts of oil. I know it did not take over a qt. to get it to the 1/2" up in the glass tube. I think I must have something blocking the bottom oil port. I'll open it tomorrow and push a stiff wire in to hopefully open things up, there must be a blockage. The guy also confirmed that 1/2" up in the tube was correct.
At the point when I discovered the smoky exhaust, the vacuum was up to 27" from 25". I hope this p[ump can still be used this season, because my only spare is an old Hinman pump, a rotary vane pump that is considerably smaller than an Alamo 30. I have not had that one apart, but the farmer (a friend of mine) said it ran 1 milking machine but it was retired about 15 yrs. ago.
Back to the BB4, does anyone know if it might hurt anything to add 6 or 8" of 1.25" black pipe and a coupler to the breather, the breather now has a 1.25" iron pipe out the bottom which is about 5" long. That then screws into a 1.25" Tee that vents the head and the exhaust. I'm thinking, if I can safely add that extra, it may help condense more oil vapor which could then drain back into the base. Since the whole pump is real heavy cast I'm thinking that weight won't bother anything but I wanted opinions first.

[BreezyHill]

I don't see any issue with that addition.

I am think you may need to flush out the case with some diesel fuel. Sounds like you could have some sludge in the case that is not coming out. The other thing is if the oil level was higher than usually then it could have had some water get in it and that could have been trapped be hind sludge and is not coming out. I will take a look at mine and see if I can find my old book.

27 does not surprise me at all. The sp-11 I sold last year is pulling 28" this year and last year the same. I have a bb1 that would pull 27-28" for 30 years or so and she is still very strong but is on display now.

If you could get a milk tube cleaner brush that will go in the hole and pull crap out it there is any.

Do you have the breather on the top of the exhaust pipe?

[maple flats]

Yes, the breather is on top. that is where I want to extend it to help condense more of the oil fumes. I don't have a coupling yet, I'll get one Monday and then I'll add a 6" nipple and screw the breather back into that.
I flushed drained the oil again today and got lots of sludge using a curved wire to run back and forth along the bottom. I got a few chunks of gook out. Then I re-filled the unit up to the 1/2" above the brass ring. I also checked the level on the pump itself, It turned out it was sloped, I added a shim under the motor end and it is now level. That would have made a 1/4" difference at the for side of the pump base.
Based on the sludge in the base, my guess is that the previous owner never changed the oil, they just kept adding as needed.

[BreezyHill]

I would agree. Many just add and all the gunk collects in the bottom. I would also check the wire mesh in the breather cap and clean if needed. The bb1 & 2 used steel wool in the pipe to condensate...that's fine if non falls into the base. Now days you can just make a screen condensor out of SS mesh.

[maple flats]

How about the SS scrub pads, like steel wool, but they look like a rat's nest made of about 1/8" wide SS shavings? I looked in my breather thru the 1.25" pipe on the bottom, I see no mesh of any type in it. I did add an 8" length of black pipe (and a coupling) to help. I was thinking it needs something inside to help it reclaim more oil.

[Bolen Creek]

We currently have 9 11a and 22s in the wood s. We broke them all down and cleaned them when we purchased them. What we found is most had a 1/2 " of sludge in the bottom of the crank case. In some cases it was blocking the t the oil returns through completly. Also if you run them hot enough you will get condensation in the oil of it is not drained out and it gets cold enough the chunk of ice can give you a false reading. It can also damage the oil flickers if run with the ice in there.

[BreezyHill]

I would be concerned of back pressure issues if the pad is to dense. Generally this style of pump does not have an oil vapor issue as they don't get hot enough to produce much vapor.

But if you are having a vapor issue then a taller pipe that gets away from a hot pump will be cooler and will condensate out vapor. Issue is if it gets to cool then you will get water vapor condensating also.

And as BC stated water/sap in the oil will give a false reading.

Yesterday I had the oddest thing happen two times. My lines were running so fast with surges during the night that I filled the water trap and a small amount of sap reached the pumps. The water I drained had an amber color to it. I changed the oil in both pumps as I was concerned of sugar buildup in the reservoirs. Both pumps running run all day long after the oil change.

I wonder of sugar will dissolve in vac oil??? If so this is an issue since the sugar is an abrasive and would explain why people have destroyed a pump soon after it has had a sap flood situation.

Going to have to do some experimenting to check this one out.

[maple flats]

I changed the oil 1 mor time and things went well after that. 1 issue I discovered was that the glass tube was pushed down far enough to contact the bottom of the 4 way cross, this made it real easy for even a little sludge to block oil flow as I attempted to drain it, thus giving a radically low amount into the drain pan. After I discovered that and raised the glass tube so it was only in about to the top of the open ports in the 4 way cross, it both drained the sludge good and it seems to be working properly now. I find I need to make one of my sap ladders bigger. I am not getting good vacuum transfer beyond it, the other 2 ladders are doing well. The good ones are only losing 1-2" from the releaser to the far end of the main, past 2 sap ladders, while the poor one loses 15". That is my next project, I am redesigning it tomorrow and adding more uprights (legs) to climb. I temporarily helped it by putting on 1 extra leg, I added a saddle on the bottom of the lower main, attached a single 5/16 line over to the top side of the main that was doing well, just before it entered the releaser. That 5/16 ran full stream constantly into that other main, and that main still held to within 2" at the far end of that main. The other main gradually showed an increase in vacuum at the far end. With the releaser at 23", it started at 8" and climbed to 17", better but not good. That is why I'm redoing the whole ladder. On the bad one I got lazy and just put a single 3/4" vertical line for a 11' climb. I'm going back to the spider legs type tomorrow. That main only has 50 taps and I'll put on 4 legs up. My other one where it has 64 taps beyond does very well with 4 legs up.