Sap ladders

[farmerboy469]

Where, when and how is the best way to introduce air into the line for a ladder that is 4-5 foot?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I know that there are others that will disagree with me but there is no need to introduce a leak for your ladder to perform well and get good vacuum transfer. Keep it simple

[Moser's Maple]

I know that there are others that will disagree with me but there is no need to introduce a leak for your ladder to perform well and get good vacuum transfer. Keep it simple
100% completely agree with this comment.

now the other guy that is going to reply is going to tell you the complete opposite, just to give fair warning

[maplwrks]

I have been using ladders for the better part of 20 years---never needed to introduce a leak to any of them.

[Maplewalnut]

Same here, only use my end of line valve for draining at end of season. I have a tight system and still get plenty of sap lifting.

[BreezyHill]

Thanks for the introduction Jake.

I totally agree that you will not need a leak added to your system if you plenty of leaks already. Sap rises in a ladder on a bubble of air quickest and will have less pooling in the feeder line as long as there is enough air or tree gases to clear the ladder. If the line pools this will limit vacuum transfer.

Now if your system is tight and you do not have enough air or tree gas in the line you add an injector. The distance from the ladder wants to be within in site so you can see the bubbles rising in the ladder and to see any pooling.

I do this adjustment at peak flow and then check it once or twice more during peak flow and then it is good for the season. Pretty simple.

Ben

[RustyBuckets]

Adding a leak to a sap ladder is like driving backwords down the highway. It is not needed nor recomended even on tubing systems that are tighter than fish anus. You can install a brand new system and have zero need for adding a leak. Not only do they perform better without a leaker but why would anyone go through the trouble of maintaining a tight system to only purposely introduce a leak. The way sap shoots up a ladder with a leaker is more an optical illusion than it is productive. Any doubt to this just close your leaker and count your releaser dumps in a hour then add a leak and count them again for an hour.

[GeneralStark]

Tighter than fish anus...you learn something new everyday. Prepare to be schooled by the sap ladder expert.

[RustyBuckets]

He can try to school till his heart is content, what matters is what puts more sap in the tanks, the just count releaser dumps if theres any doubt.

[BreezyHill]

Humm never know a person that was into checking out a fish that close before.

Efficency is what counts. vac at the end of the line is more important than at the releaser.

A pooled feeder is not an optic illusion...it is a vacuum transfer killer. Less vacuum past the pool is a reduction in production. You wont have anything to reach the releaser to count.

But that is only my experience in ladders over the last 40 years.

So I guess that you have discussed this with Leaders engineers also since they sell injectors.

So how many ladders do you have rusty?

[markct]

Heres my experience with new tubing and apparently a very tight system, sap would back up the mainline and not lift alot of times, yes it did make its way up just fine but there was some backup in the mainline. No big deal, except that it would freeze and take forever to thaw and transfer vac. So i installed a needle valve for and adjust it for a leak so small you cant hear it but can feel it when you put your finger over the end of the valve. I have had much better luck with ladders and associated mainlines not filling and freezing up solid. Your results may vary. And as others have said the sap shooting up the ladder is more an illusion of fast flow than anything

[Russell Lampron]

I have run my ladder both ways, with a leak and without. I will have to do an experiment to see which way gives the best vacuum transfer and report my findings.

That fishes anus is about as tight as a crabs anus and that's water tight.....

[RustyBuckets]

Humm never know a person that was into checking out a fish that close before.

Efficency is what counts. vac at the end of the line is more important than at the releaser.

A pooled feeder is not an optic illusion...it is a vacuum transfer killer. Less vacuum past the pool is a reduction in production. You wont have anything to reach the releaser to count.

But that is only my experience in ladders over the last 40 years.

So I guess that you have discussed this with Leaders engineers also since they sell injectors.

So how many ladders do you have rusty?

What counts is the sap in the tanks that puts syrup in the barrels. You do know snake oil has been sold for 100's of years right? I have a few ladders in my system, and I can tell you for certain the releasers do not dump as many times per hour with a leaker as they do without. Now I only personally have 43 years experience but with the generations before me that raised me in maple we only have about 166 combined years of experience. But thats neither here nor there its about the gallons of sap that we are trying to maximize. But hey what do I know I dont run 20 plus ladders with leakers on 700 taps and still manage to pull 29 inches of vac on a dairy pump that has low cfms and couldnt pull 18 inches of mercury in the farmers barn.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Heres my experience with new tubing and apparently a very tight system, sap would back up the mainline and not lift alot of times, yes it did make its way up just fine but there was some backup in the mainline. No big deal, except that it would freeze and take forever to thaw and transfer vac. So i installed a needle valve for and adjust it for a leak so small you cant hear it but can feel it when you put your finger over the end of the valve. I have had much better luck with ladders and associated mainlines not filling and freezing up solid. Your results may vary. And as others have said the sap shooting up the ladder is more an illusion of fast flow than anything

I talked with two manufacturing company reps from Canada about this issue. Their response was that if sap was pooling, there were not enough risers. Added another spider, problem solved.

[farmerboy469]

Thank you guys for all your information on setting up my new ladders it is greatly appreciated to get info from ways people are going about setting them up.

[BreezyHill]

What counts is the sap in the tanks that puts syrup in the barrels. You do know snake oil has been sold for 100's of years right? I have a few ladders in my system, and I can tell you for certain the releasers do not dump as many times per hour with a leaker as they do without. Now I only personally have 43 years experience but with the generations before me that raised me in maple we only have about 166 combined years of experience. But thats neither here nor there its about the gallons of sap that we are trying to maximize. But hey what do I know I dont run 20 plus ladders with leakers on 700 taps and still manage to pull 29 inches of vac on a dairy pump that has low cfms and couldnt pull 18 inches of mercury in the farmers barn.

ah now I see the issue... You have been only looking at stock setups. You need to look at increasing production of equipment to take advantage of the efficiency of design. Take off the vacuum regulator and then you will be able to get more out of your pumps. I can get you pics if you are not sure what a regulator looks like.

This is a picture of vacuum CFM tester attached to a surge sp-11 Dairy Pump. This pump was used in a dairy farm in Washington county for many years and then on a goat farm in Rensellaer County for a few years. It is now pulling 28 inches on a bush in Washington County. This is how much vac it puledl after the vacuum regulator was removed and the timing of the system was checked.
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166 years that is very impressive. I would love to see pics from the systems they used back in 1850. I have seen some very wild pics of wooden throughs that were used to collect sap dumped from imported bambo used to tap trees. How did your ancestors do it?

I understand it is hard for some to think out side of the box; but that is no reason to disrespect every producer that uses a dairy pump to produce sap and especially those that understand how to modify these pump systems to get more out of them. If you visit nearly every maple syrup equipment wholesaler you will find a delaval pump on the shelves and they are able to pull more than 18".

Ladders are only one tool that producers use to over come natural obstacles to get sap to collection points. I can only recommend what I have experienced and use the knowledge from vacuum professionals that I have worked with. I have found that adding more risers will work to a point but there is a point of diminishing returns that is reached and additional risers defeats the purpose. When you have multiple ladders on a mainline you learn a lot of efficiency enhancers. When I can lift sap with fewer risers after a ladder lift less sap thru more risers and the only change is an injector you learn that it is not the number of risers that increase efficiency but the inclusion of a tiny tiny amount of air. The science is that air can be lift infinitely with vacuum and liquid can only be lift a distance relative to the amount of vacuum applied.

I am a person of science. I am always trying something new to make things work better. This is how great advances have been made through out history. There were a lot of people back in the 1650's when the first vacuum pump was made that thought the world was flat. Within 50 years most people understood the error in that way of thinking...but still it took one person to buck the system to start to change that way of thinking.

If your way works for you on your system then great but don't disrespect those that develop alternative ways to enhance equipment, increase production and have multiply pieces of equipment that will produce more experience in the same amount of time.

I too have talked to several reps...did you know that some are just salesmen that have little to no practical experience. They attend sales meetings and that is their source of information. I talked with one that said ladders cant work. He got far more knowledge from me than I from him.

I have always learned that it is best to go to the one that has more practical experience when asking questions. I would never go to the doctor that has one or two heart patients a year for advice or work. He may know what has worked for him but his base of knowledge is limited to what he was accomplished. But his colleague that has done 10 or 20 times more in a year has far more experience and over a few short years this is a tremendous knowledge base to draw from.

[RustyBuckets]

Ben Ben Ben you are making assumptions, I can assure you I have no vac regulators and am pulling high vac. I would suggest an experiment for you. One day spend 4 hours of your time, you will thank me later. Pick a day when you have a good sap run, lets say at 11 am till 12 with all your leakers opened to your liking count how many gallons your releaser dumps. Then from 12 till 1 close those leakers and count how many gallons, repeat this process 1 more time for each way, add with leaky ladder gallon counts and add up non leaky ladder gallon counts. Others have done this on there systems as well and they all closed there leakers when done. Thompson Tree Farm is correct if your pooling sap you do not have enough risers in the system. Pooled sap is a vac block, leakers are a vac loss, a proper setup you dont get the pooling and you dont need to lose vac on purpose. An efficient system is one that works properly without sacrificing cfms, hg's, spending time tweaking injector valves, adding more connections than necessary which can and do lead to more potential leaks in a system, getting the best return out of your investment by putting more syrup in jugs.

[BreezyHill]

Ben Ben Ben you are making assumptions, I can assure you I have no vac regulators and am pulling high vac. I would suggest an experiment for you. One day spend 4 hours of your time, you will thank me later. Pick a day when you have a good sap run, lets say at 11 am till 12 with all your leakers opened to your liking count how many gallons your releaser dumps. Then from 12 till 1 close those leakers and count how many gallons, repeat this process 1 more time for each way, add with leaky ladder gallon counts and add up non leaky ladder gallon counts. Others have done this on there systems as well and they all closed there leakers when done. Thompson Tree Farm is correct if your pooling sap you do not have enough risers in the system. Pooled sap is a vac block, leakers are a vac loss, a proper setup you dont get the pooling and you dont need to lose vac on purpose. An efficient system is one that works properly without sacrificing cfms, hg's, spending time tweaking injector valves, adding more connections than necessary which can and do lead to more potential leaks in a system, getting the best return out of your investment by putting more syrup in jugs.

Sorry just going with your words of a "dairy Pump unable to pull past 18".
More risers than the volume of the feeder and removal line would be point less, as sap would pool in the riser. I have seen this happen many times.

As your terminology, if your fish had three anuses would he or she be able to pass more than it can thru the one? There is a pooling affect in the digestive system of excrement so you are saying that three anuses are better than one. I suggest that it is better to fix the one and have it work more efficiently. If this is not possible then by all means add another anus to your fish. I am not a fishy person so this is totally out of my relm of knowledge but hope it helps.

I have experiment in depth to get ladders to work efficiently. My pump system is able to over come the .2 cfm that all my injectors add to the system with plenty of cfm to spare. The addition of less than2/100 of a cubic foot of air to the tubing system has only increased the vacuum past the ladder by clearing the ladder and a speeding the sap thru the ladder for better vacuum transfer.

I surmise that I will be unable to enlighten you so I will not try further.

[RustyBuckets]

I think you may have lost it a little Ben. Your fish analogy is humurous but flawed. Think about it, cfm what would transfer more cfms farther, one, two, three or more pipes? What would transfer liquid faster. One, two or three or more pipes? What would transfer vac farther, one pipe full, two pipes half full, 3 pipes one third full etc etc etc? You keep preaching efficiency l, great and maybe old school setups with dairy pumps, glass bowl milk releaser and air injected in hour lines is most efficient for you but as far as telling everyone constantly this is how and theres no other way is insane. With the modern systems out there you can and will achieve greater more efficient results with bigger returns on your investments. Electric releasers, double mechanical releasers, reverse slope releaser, check valves, 3/16 etc etc theres a whole world af far more efficient systems readily available. D&G does not recomend injectors, they are telling us 3/16 with no leaks, with enough risers to stop pooling is also far more efficient system. I know 3 different equipment dealers local to me that will laugh if you tell them add injectors. Like I said count your gallons of sap with and without, quit watching the illusion of sap shooting up the risers, if you are pooling add another lift, in the end your production level will jump. Theres no need to argue this until you have tried it. I once ran leakers until I was shown the a better way and the end result was stunning.

[BreezyHill]

We ran for 35 years with no injectors for our ladder and only after we added injectors did we increase production dramaticly. So been there done that. The time it takes to adjust an injector is well paid for in the increase in production. Besides it takes all of 10 minutes max. From year to year there is no need to readjust unless the system has changed.

Thanks for the suggestion but I would suggest that you try an injector and see the results first hand. If your pump system cant handle then I totally understand.

Funny how you don't release that a glass releaser is an electric releaser. LOL

Reverse slope...also started in the dairy industry, as did ladders and risers.

As I said I am not a fishy person so sorry that the analogy was nut up to par.
LOL

I am glad that what is working for you is working, but I have seen far better results from injection on a tight system. If I have time this season I will post results of injection vs no injected as you suggest.

[RustyBuckets]

Have you not read anything I wrote, you keep making assumptions about my system. I can assure you the 60cfm pump thats pulling 27.5 inches of vac on the one section of woods with a couple ladders that has only 800 taps on it with no injectors is more than adequate and efficient. If you read back you will see I said I use to inject air until I was shown better ways which achieved better sap volume. Go back and look at the guys who responded do not ad a leak, ask them how many taps they run, how many years they been in maple and how they rely on getting the most sap possible to put more food on there table. If you have the correct number of ladders and they are setup right you will without doubt get greater yeilds. Do you know how many gallins of sap you get per tap? If your not getting 25 plus you or anyone willing to learn and put the effort in can achieve that.

[Clinkis]

I think maybe you guys should just agree to disagree.....your obviously not going to change each other's opinion. As in most cases, what works for one person in a certain situation is not always going work for someone in another and that doesn't make one right and one wrong.....

[RustyBuckets]

I think maybe you guys should just agree to disagree.....your obviously not going to change each other's opinion. As in most cases, what works for one person in a certain situation is not always going work for someone in another and that doesn't make one right and one wrong.....
Thank you and you are correct, which is why most of us dont preach there way is the only way on every sap ladder thread. Which is also whyy I keep saying count your gallons that come out your releaser.

[Mini_Maple_Men]

When me and my brother would go at it for two long, my father would look at us both and say, girls knock it off, your both pretty! That usually stopped the ruckus between two 240lb boys...lol

[Clinkis]

When me and my brother would go at it for two long, my father would look at us both and say, girls knock it off, your both pretty! That usually stopped the ruckus between two 240lb boys...lol

Lol.....well said

[Russell Lampron]

As I read the post in this thread I keep wondering where the bus to banned camp is.....

[markct]

I talked with two manufacturing company reps from Canada about this issue. Their response was that if sap was pooling, there were not enough risers. Added another spider, problem solved.

I thought so too but have seen it happen with as few as 15 taps on a 6 way star ladder so should be plenty of risers. Not often, but occasionally with no leaks and not enough tree gasses, which may explain why it's worst with less taps

[BreezyHill]

Probly the same company that claims there isn't a 3/16 to 5/16 adapter on the market yet...or is it the one that says there is only a prototype on the market.

Both are wrong on those subject too.

Funny how the only company that promotes injectors is the one that offers them for sale.

No reason to promote what you don't sell...sell what you have is rule # 1 in sales school.

[GeneralStark]

I personally would not do anything Leader promotes. What I don't get is how with an introduced leak you don't get massive freeze-up issues downstream in the mainline. Until it really gets warm later in the season I generally find an ice blockage downstream of leaks. See photo for example. This one was pretty extreme and was due to a leak from a squirrel chew in the lateral entering the saddle close up.

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[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Nope, I got the info from D&G and the company you represent!



Probly the same company that claims there isn't a 3/16 to 5/16 adapter on the market yet...or is it the one that says there is only a prototype on the market.

Both are wrong on those subject too.

Funny how the only company that promotes injectors is the one that offers them for sale.

No reason to promote what you don't sell...sell what you have is rule # 1 in sales school.

[BreezyHill]

Yup DG and CDL don't sell injectors...thanks for the conformation.

[Moser's Maple]

Funny how the only company that promotes injectors is the one that offers them for sale.

No reason to promote what you don't sell...sell what you have is rule # 1 in sales school.


actually you're misinformed
there are 2 companies that sell air injectors
Leader which can be seen on page 7 of their catalog, and lapierre which can be seen on page 36.
Now 1 of those companies promotes the use of the injectors, and the other promotes to save your money and buy something different from them.

Confidence comes not from always being right
but from not fearing to be wrong.
- Peter T. Mcintyre

[Russell Lampron]

I've got 18 taps on my sap ladder and get much more sap from the rest of my taps with no leak than I do if I introduce a leak. If the sap puddles up and there is no vacuum transfer so be it, it's only 18 taps out of 700. I would rather maintain a higher vacuum level throughout my woods and sacrifice some of the sap from the 18 taps than see the sap racing through the ladder and not get as much sap overall. When I introduce a leak at the ladder I can see the sap going backwards in the laterals and I know that's not good.