New 2X6 boiling rates

[Paul VT]

Thinking about new evaporator for next season. Very few manufactures post evaporation rates. Wondering if anyone knows what some of the newer rigs are doing. Would want one with a Preheater and hood. Have seen the smokey lake ratings which are impressive. Was told by D&G that with a airtight arch there 2x6 will do about 80 gallons an hour.

[mapledavefarm]

I have a friend with an D&G airtight 2x6 that boils sap like mad. He consistently gets 70-80 gph with a hood and preheater. He bought it last year and I think he said it was 1000 or 1500 dollars less than the comparable smoky lake evaporator.

[Sugarmaker]

Wow if you can get those numbers that would be great. I would have thought about 1/2 that rate for a 2 x 6? Maybe I am missing something?
Regards,
Chris

[Paul VT]

I have a friend with an D&G airtight 2x6 that boils sap like mad. He consistently gets 70-80 gph with a hood and preheater. He bought it last year and I think he said it was 1000 or 1500 dollars less than the comparable smoky lake evaporator.
The price is the big difference I found also.

[Russell Lampron]

How deep are the flues? My evaporator is getting old at 16 years. I have an Algier 2x6 with 7" raised flues, air under the fire, hood and preheater and bubbler. When it was new with no air, no hood and no bubbler I was getting 35 gallons per hour. With all of the mods I am getting 45 gallons per hour maybe more. I boil concentrate and don't have many boiling sessions over 2 1/2 hours so it hard to get an accurate number but the evaporator is usually just getting fully warmed up when I have to shut down. I don't have an air tight arch.

[boondocker]

I have a 2013 CDL 30x8 raised flue, no hood or preheater and I just installed a blower that I haven't tested yet, but the best I have ever done was about 75 gph. That is with the wind just right and all the planets aligned. I avarage a consistent 60 on a normal day. That D&G number sounds high but it is also a airtight, so they may be legit on those numbers. When I was looking to buy I wanted somthing that would do a minimum of 1 gal. Per minute with no add ons, and I can say it hasn't disappointed.

[adk1]

That is probably close to being accurate I am getting 35 plus without an airtight front and no hood/preheater

[Jim Brown]

I have a 2x6 with 7inch raised flues. Steamaway and forced draft ,no air tight arch and when we get up to temp we do about 55 gph We run8% concentrate to the steamaway and get 10-11% to the flue pan

Jim

[Tweegs]

My Leader was about 30 GPH right out of the box, 38 with a hood and preheater.
We’ve seen as high as 42 when the stars align, we’ve got good wood, and find that pitch perfect firing groove, but we’ve never been able to hold that rate for more than an hour or two.

I’m guessing we could get another 4 to 5 GPH by adding an air tight front and AUF.

If you added an RO capable of removing 50 GPH of permeate and added that to the evaporation rate of the evaporator, you could come up with an effective sap processing rate of 100 GPH overall, but I’m having trouble getting my head around a 2x6 that could do 100 GPH on its own. Surface area being the key limiting factor.

[adk1]

Yup, allot has to do with fuel type, oil or wood and if wood we talking softwood or hardwood. If u burning locust, then watch out!

[Paul VT]

The 80gph was with wood. I will like to talk to someone that's has one of these D&G 2X6. I will be talking to other manufactures to see what they claim to get. I have a 2X6 Lightning now with a Preheater and can do about 35gph. Would like to do more an hour. But no room for a bigger rig.

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

With my 2X6 leader 4' max flue, air tight AIF AUF I was around 75 gph. I'm happy so far but need a few good runs to really get a accurate number


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[Chicopee Sap Shack]

Sorry AOF AUF**


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[mellondome]

If no more room, you should be looking for a steam a way or an ro. Just puttin in new pans is not going to double your rate on the same surface area. A lot of rate with wood varies due to type, dryness, split size, fireing rate, air over and under, sap level in pans and arch setup.

After 5 years of tweeking, I could get 55 gal avg out of my grimm lightening raised 2x6 with preheater and hoods. Mind you this was running it on the edge.. always 30 seconds from disaster.

[n8hutch]

70-80 sounds like a stretch to me. I would believe 60. But even that would be excellent for a 2x6 in my opinion. With a preheated even.

Maybe a leader Max flue. But a standard d&g 2x6 which is a very nice unit and inexpensive compared to the others, is just not going to be the hardest boiling unit out there.

If it was nobody would be paying 11k for a leader max raised with hood & pre heater.

[Paul VT]

Good point on the $11k.
I have AUF now.

[Moser's Maple]

so I'm just having a hard time getting my brain around some of these boiling rates. actually it's starting to make me question how out of date my arch and pans must be. So we have a algier 4x12 setup with auf, aof. I would have to confidently say we get between 200-210 gph on this rig. no preheater, but do have a hood, and 8 inch raised flues in the back. I came up with this figure by measuring the gph the rig consumed, and the gph the ro was putting out and where i lost and gained.

now pardon my math, i know it gets more technical than this probably, but this is where I'm getting hung up.
a 2x6 has 12 sqft of pan area
at 80 gph (that was mentioned) that would roughly be 6.6 gph per sqft
2x6=12
80/12=6.6
so if I do the same math for our rig then
4x12=48
48 sqft x 6.6 gph =320 gph....now i don't have a preheater so for argument safe lets subtract 20%
320x.20= 64
320-64=256
I'm not coming close to this.
now at 60 gph the math seems to be a little more believeable.
2x6=12
60/12=5 gph/sqft
4x12=48
48x5=240 subtract 20% which is 48
so then my unpreheated boiling rate would be 192.

I see in this thread
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?26051-Smokey-Lake-Evaporator/page2
that they are calling for these high boiling rates on a different brand also.
so is my math way off here, are my pans and arch that outdated (2004), am i over thinking this, or are these numbers from a utopian society?
IMO i would have to see for myself a 2x6 rig that is just AUF do 75-80 gph

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

What you math does not account for is flue pan vs syrup pan size. ie. 2x6 with 3' or 4 ' flue pan. And number of flues and height of flues. And temp in the fire box matters too. I'm running 1300-1500 in the fire box sometimes 1600. Generally 1400 ish.


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[RUNOFBANK]

For what its worth here is a photo of a new leader 2x6 max flue on inferno arch. It is claimed to do 55 gph.

1305013049

[mapledavefarm]

so I'm just having a hard time getting my brain around some of these boiling rates. actually it's starting to make me question how out of date my arch and pans must be. So we have a algier 4x12 setup with auf, aof. I would have to confidently say we get between 200-210 gph on this rig. no preheater, but do have a hood, and 8 inch raised flues in the back. I came up with this figure by measuring the gph the rig consumed, and the gph the ro was putting out and where i lost and gained.

now pardon my math, i know it gets more technical than this probably, but this is where I'm getting hung up.
a 2x6 has 12 sqft of pan area
at 80 gph (that was mentioned) that would roughly be 6.6 gph per sqft
2x6=12
80/12=6.6
so if I do the same math for our rig then
4x12=48
48 sqft x 6.6 gph =320 gph....now i don't have a preheater so for argument safe lets subtract 20%
320x.20= 64
320-64=256
I'm not coming close to this.
now at 60 gph the math seems to be a little more believeable.
2x6=12
60/12=5 gph/sqft
4x12=48
48x5=240 subtract 20% which is 48
so then my unpreheated boiling rate would be 192.

I see in this thread
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?26051-Smokey-Lake-Evaporator/page2
that they are calling for these high boiling rates on a different brand also.
so is my math way off here, are my pans and arch that outdated (2004), am i over thinking this, or are these numbers from a utopian society?
IMO i would have to see for myself a 2x6 rig that is just AUF do 75-80 gph

Thanks for the math. Too much for me to think about though. All I can say is my friend said he read several posts like the one from JA Davis and called smokey lake. Their air tight 2x6 was " 10000 dollars with all the bells and whistles", he said he then called a D&G dealer and bought the same rig for just over 8000 dollars with the same bells and whistles. I'm sorry but I have no reason to doubt my buddy or JA Davis for their claimed evaporation rate from a 2x6. Maybe I should start a new thread but what is the evaporation rate from some of the deep flue manufactures like Next Gen or Sunrise ? Don't both of those manufactures make 16 inch flue pans ? If smokey lake and D&G are claiming 70-80 gph, what is the output of an 2x6 with 16 inch flues and what is the cost compared to other manufactures ? Maybe Moser will do the math for us so we can all get our brains around these numbers.

[derekp]

I've only boiled a few times with my new 2x6 smoky lake pan set. It has 10 7" drop flues. It is the same pan set that comes on the Silver plate evaporator that jim estimated a 50 gph evaporation rate. The second test boil I had was right around 40 gph and that was including startup. It will take a few more boils to figure an average while running for more than an hour but I was more than impressed so far. This was with auf, aof, 1.5" of water, really dry small wood

[mapledavefarm]

I've only boiled a few times with my new 2x6 smoky lake pan set. It has 10 7" drop flues. It is the same pan set that comes on the Silver plate evaporator that jim estimated a 50 gph evaporation rate. The second test boil I had was right around 40 gph and that was including startup. It will take a few more boils to figure an average while running for more than an hour but I was more than impressed so far. This was with auf, aof, 1.5" of water, really dry small wood

Glad to see you used a Leader arch. The other thing my buddy said is smokey lake uses galvanized sides and stack for the base price. He said there was no way he was going to pay for an 450 dollar upgrade to not have to worry about poising his family with fumes from the galvanized metal burning. He said the only way the D&G evaporator was offered was with stainless steel sides and stack.

[Paul VT]

I've only boiled a few times with my new 2x6 smoky lake pan set. It has 10 7" drop flues. It is the same pan set that comes on the Silver plate evaporator that jim estimated a 50 gph evaporation rate. The second test boil I had was right around 40 gph and that was including startup. It will take a few more boils to figure an average while running for more than an hour but I was more than impressed so far. This was with auf, aof, 1.5" of water, really dry small wood
Jim claims no less then 60 gph with his 2x6 silverplate. https://nh.craigslist.org/grd/5378401238.html

[mapledavefarm]

Jim claims no less then 60 gph with his 2x6 silverplate. https://nh.craigslist.org/grd/5378401238.html

Another ad. http://www.sugarbush.info/forsale/showproduct.php?product=463&title=2-27-d76-27-silverplate-drop-flue-evaporator&cat=2

[n8hutch]

For what its worth here is a photo of a new leader 2x6 max flue on inferno arch. It is claimed to do 55 gph.

1305013049

Add a leader hood & pre heater to that & you get your 11k

[nymapleguy607]

My guess is that clam of 80gph was a number taken at full boil about midway through a burn cycle when everything was humming along. Before my steamaway I would average 43gph I tested how fast sap was coming in a couple times when I was at full boil and midway through the burn cycle and I was getting 60gph and that was with a standard 7" raised flue pan. Evaporation is about like your gas mileage it varys from one to the next.

[derekp]

Yea 60 with preheater and hood which comes standard on the silverplate setup..I just have the pans..for now

[Chicopee Sap Shack]

When I got 75 gph I had no draws and was really pushing it firing every 5 minutes and trying to see what it would really do and pumping the air to it. I would guess that the average will be somewhere around 60-65


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[BAP]

What model D&G were they quoting you?

[heus]

Sunrise claims 57gph from their 2x6 jdl extreme 16" deep flue pans.

[nymapleguy607]

Sunrise claims 57gph from their 2x6 jdl extreme 16" deep flue pans.

That number seems low for a 16" flue but maybe thats the number for a standard wood evaporator.

[mudr]

That number seems low for a 16" flue but maybe thats the number for a standard wood evaporator.
I would expect diminishing returns at some point with respect to flue depth. A 2x6 firebox is only so big. Yes,deeper flues get you more surface area for efficiency but the # of btu does not change. Like putting steeper gears on a 4 cylinder engine, you might get better mpgs but than engine still only has so much power.

[Paul VT]

What model D&G were they quoting you?
Not sure what model. But it was a air tight arch. Cross flow pans. With hood and Preheater.

[chuck]

I have a 4 yr old Leader 2x6, Inferno arch, max flu pan, revolution front pan, preheater and hood. I use a mixture of soft and hardwood and boil raw sap. I avg about 45 gal per hr. I've had it as high as 50 gal /hr but that doesn't happen consistently. I can't imagine a 2x6 doing almost double that simply due to the surface area as someone already mentioned.

[mapledavefarm]

Yea 60 with preheater and hood which comes standard on the silverplate setup..I just have the pans..for now

According to the ad, the hood and preheater is an extra 2100.00 dollars. So the 60gph would then be achieved before the hood and preheater enhancement. That's what I'm reading.

[Paul VT]

According to the ad, the hood and preheater is an extra 2100.00 dollars. So the 60gph would then be achieved before the hood and preheater enhancement. That's what I'm reading.
It says "60gph with this complete unit" I would assume that's what $9150 gets you. Add $500 for a raised flue.

[n8hutch]

It's too bad all the manufactures don't post their prices or build your own evaporator pages like Smoky lake does, then you could really make a comparison. But as most people know, nobody pays the same price for anything in this business. And comparing apples to apples can be hard to do.

[Paul VT]

I agree. Wish they would advertise more info about evaporators. It's like there prices are a secret. Seems to me if they want to sell there product they would want to advertise how well it performs and what the prices are. Like with cars they tell you what the fuel economy is. Atleast a range of what they can do would be nice.

I talked to CDL. There 2X6 with air tight front, hood and Preheater will do 45-50 gph.

[mapledavefarm]

It says "60gph with this complete unit" I would assume that's what $9150 gets you. Add $500 for a raised flue.

Okay, so that brings me to my next question..... Why would you spend $ 2100.00 dollars to gain say 15% ( I think that's on the high side from the study's I have read from Proctor ) when for $3800.00 dollars you can buy a sap raider and gain 75% present efficiency. Okay class here we go...... for $2100.00 dollars you gain 7-8 gallons per hour ( based on a standard open flue smokey lake pan boiling at 52 gallons per hour x 15 % increase ), or for $3800.00 or $ 1800.00 dollars more you can evaporate 91 gallons per hour ( 52 x 75% increase )? That's a BIG difference when you talking 15% more dollars to evaporate 60% more sap..... Do the math...... http://kaplanmaple.com/sap-raider.html

[n8hutch]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to buy a hood anyway for a sap raider and or steam away. think if I was going to stick with a 2x6 rig I would probably get a leader for the simple reason that they seem to be the only ones building steam aways for these smaller rigs. With the exception of sunrise.although I think that Leaders stuff is over priced and I like the design of Smoky lakes same side reverse better than the revolution pan.

[Moser's Maple]

It says "60gph with this complete unit" I would assume that's what $9150 gets you. Add $500 for a raised flue.

where we getting 9150? I checked his website and for raised it's 11k

https://www.smokylakemaple.com/product/silverplate-evaporator/

[CampHamp]

Looking at the Smoky Lake video of the boil in that ad (http://www.sugarbush.info/forsale/showproduct.php?product=463&title=2-27-d76-27-silverplate-drop-flue-evaporator&cat=2), drop flues boil hard at the back of the pan. Nice!

He says you can drain the flue pan completely because there is a manifold. What does that mean? I don't see any drain spigots in the photos.

[RustyBuckets]

All manufactures put a manifold in the bottom of there drop flues for a pan drain. Back in ancient times this was not the case, all it is is a pipe ,usually square welded to bottom of flues with holes up into each individual flue so it drains out a valve that come out the side of the arch. This is normal on a drop flue pan.
Looking at the Smoky Lake video of the boil in that ad (http://www.sugarbush.info/forsale/showproduct.php?product=463&title=2-27-d76-27-silverplate-drop-flue-evaporator&cat=2), drop flues boil hard at the back of the pan. Nice!

He says you can drain the flue pan completely because there is a manifold. What does that mean? I don't see any drain spigots in the photos.

[Paul VT]

where we getting 9150? I checked his website and for raised it's 11k

https://www.smokylakemaple.com/product/silverplate-evaporator/

https://nh.craigslist.org/grd/5378401238.html
Plus $500 for a raised flue pan.

[RustyBuckets]

Does this silverplate rig have air injection over the fire?

[Paul VT]

Does this silverplate rig have air injection over the fire?
I don't think so. I think it has nozzles in the door. Don't quote me on that.

[lpakiz]

On my SL drop flue, the drain pipe comes out the side of the arch, 7-8 inches below the floor of the pan.
If I did it again, I would put the drain out the bottom of the arch floor, so that I could lift the flue pan straight up to get it off the arch. As mine is now, I have to remove a horizontal pipe coming thru the side of the arch before I can lift OR slide the pan.
New pan owners take note: Im afraid the pipe is in there a little too tight to remove without damage to the flues or the drain manifold, and I cannot get to the fitting that holds the nipple in the drain manifold to steady it with another wrench.

[Moser's Maple]

https://nh.craigslist.org/grd/5378401238.html
Plus $500 for a raised flue pan.

says this post has expired?

[CampHamp]

I see what you mean, thanks. I didn't know you could drain a drop flue. I guess you would just drill a hole in the side (or better at the bottom as Ipakiz notes below) to retrofit your arch.

[Paul VT]

says this post has expired?
That's strange. It was there a few minutes ago. But it had been up for a couple months.
Here is a screen shot of the prices.
13087

[Moser's Maple]

That's strange. It was there a few minutes ago. But it had been up for a couple months.
Here is a screen shot of the prices.
13087

that's fine, i believed you before you edited for the screen shot. I was just wondering where the price came from since his site was saying almost 2k difference

[Moser's Maple]

Okay, so that brings me to my next question..... Why would you spend $ 2100.00 dollars to gain say 15% ( I think that's on the high side from the study's I have read from Proctor ) when for $3800.00 dollars you can buy a sap raider and gain 75% present efficiency. Okay class here we go...... for $2100.00 dollars you gain 7-8 gallons per hour ( based on a standard open flue smokey lake pan boiling at 52 gallons per hour x 15 % increase ), or for $3800.00 or $ 1800.00 dollars more you can evaporate 91 gallons per hour ( 52 x 75% increase )? That's a BIG difference when you talking 15% more dollars to evaporate 60% more sap..... Do the math...... http://kaplanmaple.com/sap-raider.html

bit of an extreme post, but you do make a very interesting point. if your math is correct that would seem like a logical choice. on a side note THIS IS A LOT OF STINKIN MONEY!!!!! for these little rigs. I think we paid like 12k in 04' for our 4x12 Algier.
the payback on these little rigs must be at least five years or more depending on your operation size

[Paul VT]

That's a good question. I would like to find somebody that has bought some of these rigs to know what results they are really getting. Sofar from what I am hearing sounds like the D&G might be the best value for the money.

[mapledavefarm]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to buy a hood anyway for a sap raider and or steam away. think if I was going to stick with a 2x6 rig I would probably get a leader for the simple reason that they seem to be the only ones building steam aways for these smaller rigs. With the exception of sunrise.although I think that Leaders stuff is over priced and I like the design of Smoky lakes same side reverse better than the revolution pan.

Seriously? $1300.00 dollars for a hood? The last I looked a Leader flue pan hood was like $900.00. My guess a Sunrise Hood would then be around $500.00.... Do some more math if you insist on having a hood on a steamaway/sapraider. I also see smokey lake charges a $ 550.00 upcharge for a copy of Leaders revolution pan while Sunrise offers their own same side reverse concept ( very different than Leaders ) free of charge. Just saying

[johnallin]

Since 2010 I've run a Leader 2x6 Patriot raised flue with a Patriot 2x2 syrup pan and leader steam hood. Best case, burning mostly locust and firing steady; I get 35-37 GPH. Those are real numbers, your mileage may vary.
For this year I've got a Revolution syrup pan and a preheater and will be tickled pink to see something in the 40's.

[Paul VT]

Since 2010 I've run a Leader 2x6 Patriot raised flue with a Patriot 2x2 syrup pan and leader steam hood. Best case, burning mostly locust and firing steady; I get 35-37 GPH. Those are real numbers, your mileage may vary.
For this year I've got a Revolution syrup pan and a preheater and will be tickled pink to see something in the 40's.
Keep us posted on your gph rate. Would hope you would be closer to the 50 mark.

[Russell Lampron]

Okay, so that brings me to my next question..... Why would you spend $ 2100.00 dollars to gain say 15% ( I think that's on the high side from the study's I have read from Proctor ) when for $3800.00 dollars you can buy a sap raider and gain 75% present efficiency. Okay class here we go...... for $2100.00 dollars you gain 7-8 gallons per hour ( based on a standard open flue smokey lake pan boiling at 52 gallons per hour x 15 % increase ), or for $3800.00 or $ 1800.00 dollars more you can evaporate 91 gallons per hour ( 52 x 75% increase )? That's a BIG difference when you talking 15% more dollars to evaporate 60% more sap..... Do the math...... http://kaplanmaple.com/sap-raider.html

I have a metal roof on my sugarhouse where the metal is exposed on the inside. I need a steam hood to stop the rain! Yes dollar for dollar you get more for your money with an RO. I have been preaching that for years. I draw off the same amount of syrup in an hour with my 2x6 with hood and preheater and RO as the neighbor up the road does with a 4x14 and steam away.

[bowtie]

I highly doubt d and g quoted that high for a 2x6 with hoods and preheater only. The highest I have seen quoted where from smoky lake and leader max flue, around 60 Gph. I am looking at 3x8 d and g air tight, with preheated and hood and would say 85-100 gph tops, and that has twice the surface area of the 2x6. The highest 3x8 quote I have had the s 120 gph. You have to be realistic about it, like many said the best bang for your buck is a ro, though I would never have one just old fashioned I guess, next would be steam-a-away. If you think you need 50gph buy one that will do 60 gph on average, trust me smaller rigs are just not as efficient as bigger rigs, just plain physics. Also do not buy for today, buy for 3-5 years down the road, it is a huge savings in the long run, I know. I started with2x4 flat, upgraded to 2x4 hybrid pan, then upgraded again to A 2x6 drop flue all in successive years and this year I am finally buying what I should have 3 years ago a3x8. Would have saved me a couple thousand and hours of frustration. Trying to tweek smaller rigs to squeeze out every ounce is fine if you are doing it for fun but needing that extra is a waste of time and money in my opinion. My wife wishes someone would have been strightfoward with me a couple of years ago. A couple of long boils can be fun but too many can lead to frustration and burn out.
If your are trying to maximize dollars and time then he best rig is an oil fired evap with an or, I like the old way of doing things so I go wood fired with no ro, but I get seriously frustrated at times when the feed tank seems to be stuck at full.

[nymapleguy607]

One thing to keep in mind when trying to get a super high output from a 2x6 evaporator is you only have a 24" syrup pan on the evaporator. The flat pan is where the flavor really develops so you might be able to pull a ton of syrup off but it might not be of the same quality as if you slowed down and let it cook. I bring this up because I am pretty sure I ran into this issue this past year. All my Light, Amber, and Dark syrup was made on the evaporator. My extra dark was made by draining the flue pan into the syrup pan and boiling it down a couple of points from syrup and then I finished it on the turkey fryer. I entered all four grades at the state fair the light amber and dark all recieved middle of the road scores for flavor, the extra dark was scored at the to and won Grand champion. I asked Brad at Leader what would influence that kind of difference granted I have the 4ft flue pan and a steamaway on top of that and he told me that the smaller syrup pan could contribute to that problem. Just food for thought..