Benefits of 5/16 over 3/16?

[madmapler]

I'm wondering if there are still any advantages to running a 5/16 system with mechanical vacuum over a 3/16 system if your bush has adequate slope for it. Will a mechanical system still pull more vacuum on the less productive days? Does it tend to get going earlier after a freeze?

[jmayerl]

From my understanding 3/16 needs drop to some drop to work well on a hybrid system because it has such a smal inner diameter that it cannot transfer air well for vacuum, it relies on the weight of sap for said vacuum. Where a 5/16 used on relatively flat ground can still transfer air (vacuum). I do also believe there will be additional testing on these 2 systems in the next few years from proctor.

[ryebrye]

I'm wondering if there are still any advantages to running a 5/16 system with mechanical vacuum over a 3/16 system if your bush has adequate slope for it. Will a mechanical system still pull more vacuum on the less productive days? Does it tend to get going earlier after a freeze?

The benefit is you are using a well-studied system that lots of people have set up before and you have a very low risk of being surprised several years down the road.

3/16 seems like it's going to be the system of the future, but there are some who are holding out because they want to see if the fittings start to clog sooner or if the systems will require more long term maintenance.

There is more risk with being an "early adopter"

There is still not a really good selection of 3/16 supplies like fittings etc out there. If you want to use check valves etc you have to adjust up to 5/16 for the tap... Which means more work...

I know someone who put in 30,000+ taps last year and he went with 5/16. There are some larger installations of 3/16 happening but the bigger installations seem to be sticking with what they know at the moment.

[Cody]

All of these are great points.One thing we looked at when deciding to go with 3/16 this year was cost and location to power.In our bush we have the elevation for 3/16.Will not have to invest in vac. pump and allot less main line.

[markcasper]

I have just gotten into the 3/16" world and have some questions. #1....I am not sure how far the tubing is to go onto the fittings. The Leader fittings have one barb while it appears the cdl have two barbs. I'm not sure if the second spot on the Leader fittting is the stop point, (when pushing the tubing on the outside tubing diameter is the same size as the 2nd spot on their fitting and thinking no way is that tubing going over that point. It appears D and G is the same way as well. I asked about this and was told cdl had to have two barbs because the tubing was lower quality and needs the extra barb to keep from slipping off. Still looking for answers on this.
#2 ...Can line sizing for mainline now be reduced because of less reliance on pumped vacuum? Mainly talking about installations from here on out that will have 3/16.

#3...Have the cfm ratings now been changed when sizing pumps to accomodate thye 3/16? For example....1 cfm was generally used for 100 taps. What, if any changes will there be to compensate for natural vacuum in the 3/16" in which mechanical vacuum ratings don't apply anymore? I hope this doesn't sound confusing. In other words....logic would suggest that since the pumped vacuum benefit basically ends at the end of the mainline with 3/16", will the current cfm ratings for 5/16 now be considered overkill? Considering you have 30 feet of drop on all lats, can the cfm ratings now be changed to say 1 cfm per 300 taps for example?

[WestfordSugarworks]

A 5/16 system with mechanical vacuum will pull sap sooner after a freeze and yield more sap on less productive days (I think). It takes a certain amount of sap to fill the 3/16 lines and get the nat. vac. going, so on those 37 degree days where mechanical vacuum systems are getting some sap but non-vacuum systems are dry, it would be best to have mechanical vacuum. I know of a producer who installed about 10,000 taps with 3/16 laterals and mechanical vacuum for this season. Also a producer who did the same last season with 6,000 taps. Nothing better than seeing 28 or 29 inches of vacuum on gauges.

[Super Sapper]

The CDL fittings from last year had one barb and a stop, I got some Tee's this year and they have 2 barbs. A 3/16 line does not empty out unless there is a leak, it will freeze full and start pulling vacuum as soon as it starts to thaw.

[Cody]

The CDL fittings from last year had one barb and a stop, I got some Tee's this year and they have 2 barbs. A 3/16 line does not empty out unless there is a leak, it will freeze full and start pulling vacuum as soon as it starts to thaw.That is what we were told last week at Roth's open house from a CDL rep.If you have the elevation.He also stressed to put vacuum gauges on each line at the end. this way you can tell if you have leaks.He said properly set up and maintaned it would perform better than a vacuum system. Not every bush can utilize this so mechanical vacuum will not go by the wayside. Time will tell.

[psparr]

I've found that 3/16 is a lot easier to chew up than 5/16. Unless it's just because it's the soft D&G stuff I have.

[BreezyHill]

From what I have been told by customers and what I have seen on 5/16 on our operation is 5/16 will start up quicker since as soon as the suns rays start to thaw the frozen sap in the tubing, the mechanical vac will start it moving. This moving sap will get even warmer as it moves by the warmed tubing and thaw the remaining ice in about 20-30 minutes on a sunny day. Our pumps start running at 28 degrees; as this is when our CDL tubing starts to thaw on a sunny day. Cloudy days are totally different. They can be 33 and still be solid ice. Photo cell pointing north is this years experiment to change start temp on sunny vs cloudy days.

I only have one bank, I could consider using 3/16 on the farm and currently we have not gotten that area retubed and tapped. Personally I like to try cutting edge tech. I support 3/16 if you have the slope and the supplies. CDL is ahead of the game on supplies. I have a local D&G store that is still saying the CDL fittings are prototype and not available. Any one that looks at the new CDL catalogue will see they have many fittings.

3/16 is catching on and the longer it is out, the more studies that will be published. There is a management model that has an operation staying with the tried and true production methods on 60% of the acreage and the remaining 40% is used on experimental tech. There is going to be a learning curve for new production equipment and slight changes in maintance. So most businesses would never jump 100% into an uncertainty.

Take tubing washers. We tried one...and not just one season but several. I was to young to realize, that if it don't work the first time you should try it again and again. I was the cleanest kid around. Tee shirt and jeans that looked like... Nothing like a bleach solution bath for 5-6 hours. Then the following season leaks in the tubing from all the pressure that was used to force the solution and the air surges thru the lines. That thing still sits outside the sugar house as a reminder: "Polish a turd ....and its still a Turd!" WE still wash lines but not that way...EVER!

For me a hybrid system is the way to go. Even if you use a surflo pump that is valved in to put vac on the line in the early part of the day to get the vac going and then isolate it and let gravity do the job, it does so well. You could even set it up with an electric valve to supply vac from 28 to 34 degrees and shut down above 34 and isolate itself.

There is no reason I can think of that has changed: that every producer can not treat his/her bush differently than another's. There seems to be a lot of competition to get the most sap per tap and not enough competition for the most sap for the least investment per tap.

I think Tim Wilmont was on the right track...use mother nature to help us; than to be in this battle against her 100% of the time. Let her control the temp but use her gravity to make us some lower cost syrup. But I think an inexpensive pump system could help beat Mother Nature, for a little while on the temp side.

[Bucket Head]

"There's nothing wrong with 5/16 tubing". I forget who said it, but it was quoted in The Maple News last year and I agree with them. I jumped on the 3/16 band wagon last year and installed some on a slope but it was pretty close to level approaching the collection point and I did not have the 30 feet of drop after the last tap as recommended. It did not perform anywhere near what others said they were getting. The lack of slope actually hindered the sap flow. The 5/16 filled the barrels better because there was more flow capability with the bigger tubing. You need that when you have little slope to work with. The sap movement slowed considerably along the flat area to the collection point in the 3/16 tubing. I went back to 5/16 there.

Have I given up on 3/16? No. I put it up at three new locations this year. Better slope at these places but still not what they say is "optimum" conditions. We'll see what happens. Unfortunately, I will need some sort of mechanical vacuum assist to get the numbers others are getting with this small tubing.

As Breezyhill said, all bushes are different. Some producers will have to recognize that 3/16 by itself isn't a good fit for them. I am one of those producers. For now I will continue to collect what I can with gravity 5/16 and hope the 3/16 does better than it did last year.

So don't throw your 5/16 tubing tools away just yet!

[White Crow]

I am new to tubing this year, 2 lines out for a total of 1,000' of 3/16, 1 line has good drop and the other has about 5' drop from the last tap, 2 questions, would it help to tap my last trees high on the low slope line? also how do you clean the 3/16 line, thanks for any advice