Vac or natural vac

[boondocker]

I am stuck on a decision as to weather I should set up 2 new systems on 3/16 natural vacuum or go 5/16 and use a shurflo set up. Both set ups have a good natural slope south facing, one will have about 125 taps and the other will have around 240. Just looking for opinions and thoughts. I'm not looking to spend 8k on a big vac pump , releaser and all that. Thank you in advance........and if you have a system on a shurflo please chime in and tell me how it works for you good or bad.

[psparr]

You will get far more vac from the 3/16 than the pump, and it's free.

[boondocker]

Really?? Even on a tight system pulling 20"? Wow! I know that the 3/16 systems are impressive but I didn't think it would out do vacuum. Holy!

[PA TAPPER]

I went from Buckets in 2015 to 3/16 Natural Vacuum this year ( 2016 ). I'm impressed with my 3 short sap runs I have had so far. Total of 143 taps on 7 lines . I have 24 to 27 inches on all of my gauges when no leaks were present. When there is a major leak vacuum reading dropped to between 5 and 12 pounds. Minor leaks seem to keep reading at 18+ inches but bubble / speed of flow increases in tubing. In either case , fix the leak and 10 minutes later your back up to full Vac . Best of all , VACUUM IS FREE !

[Clinkis]

I have 2 lines on the Shurflo pumps and they work very well (20"-22" of vac on average) but doubt they would out perform 3/16. Also have the inconvenience of keeping batteries charged, turning pumps on/off and keeping pumps from freezing. I don't have the slope for 3/16 or I would be using it.

[boondocker]

That is impressive! I am very impressed with the videos I have been watching on YouTube about 3/16 systems. I spoke with my CDL rep. Yesterday about these systems, he told me that for every foot drop In elevation you gain .8cfm. I have about 20 ft. Drop In elevation so I should be able to pull some good cfm. My close friend owns a very large RV store right handy to me and he ordered me a shurflo 4048 today and is selling it to me at cost so I am not going to be into the pump for much at all. What would the shurflo do on 3/16 ??? Anyone try this? Also what is the difference between 23" on a shurflo or 23" on 3/16?

[Super Sapper]

Adding the pump would make it a hybrid system and will boost the vacuum on the taps with less than the 30 foot drop. Keep lines to about 25 taps and run them into a 3/4 inch main feeding line the pump.

[BreezyHill]

HYbrid is the way to go.

Use the natural slope to its utmost and science and technology for all it provides.

You don't need $8K to get a good vac pump to provide what you are looking for. A repurposed dairy pump will give you as much as needed and can cost as little as $100. I got an Alamo 100+ for $100 with the reclaimer and a 7.5 hp working motor. This will be my main pump this season.

Some times even mother nature needs a little help. So add a pump to the system and get the vac up. Then mother nature can take over.

I fear that producer often see a full 3/16 line of sap flowing and think back to a 5/16 flowing slower. Just remember that it takes 2.6 5/16 to carry the flow of a 1/2" line; but it takes 7.1 3/16 lines to carry that same volume.

Remember it is the 30' of drop after the last tap on a 3/16 that makes the vacuum for all the taps on the line I saw a place a producer was planning to install 3/16. 40 feet of drop from the top of the ridge to the valley floor. Most of the trees were in the valley with a few on the ridge. He thought he could get 30" of vac on the entire bush and pump the sap up to a holding tank for pickup. 30' after the last tap, is the key to 3/16.

[blissville maples]

I had a nice bush on a slope that if you fell down your going for a ride, id say over 100 feet of drop easily per lateral. anyways, wish I could upload video, 4 years ago after reasearching natural vaccuum I could not find 3/16'' tubing anywhere. bruce Bascom said they had stopped it years ago due to excessive plugging in the small lines. so I took 5/16'' a whole 500' roll and headed down the mtn. about 15 trees later and 25-35 taps per lateral I was into major vacuum. id say minimum 15'' at top, doint forget this 500' roll from top to bottom has around 250' feet of drop maybe more. during a good run ive seen a solid 5/16'' flowing fast enough hto make you dizzy if you watch the bubbles go by and by and by and by, it was impressive. now the problem with natural vacuum. it is great when its there, however your still relying on mother nature, and from my experience ive been to this sugarbush at 10 am to watch as things start. it takes the 500' long lines a long time to get going, usually by noontime or one before adding to tank. where the normal 5-10 taps per lateral are running normal flow by 10 and adding to tank. but on the flipside in the afternoon on shutdown the vac keeps the long lines flowing while others are already shut down. this bush has 3 tanks, real pain. one tank has 110 taps and no slope what so ever, just enough to flow so get no vac at all. other tank has 250 all coming down the mountain. it takes 2-3 days for me to take pump to 110 tap tank for 150 gallons, while the 250 tap tank is achieving a full 275 gal load a day (average runs). the best ive seen in the 250 tap tank: run started first thing in morning, pulled a 200gal load around 2(may have been 75 gals from prev. afternoon) emptied tank completely, went back around 530 tank was at 350 gals, I took 275. came back next morning around 11, and the tank was back up to 350. I couldn't believe it, this was the 2013 season, banner crop here in Vermont. I know for a fact without the long 500' lines there wouldn't have been the volumes there was, very exciting!!

[psparr]

I pulled 28-29 " on all three of my lines. They never empty, just freeze at night. In the morning they thaw faster than 5/16 and run well into the night.

[blissville maples]

that's incredible, so right off the bat in am your hitting high vac once thaws out?? what about if its a slow day barely unthaws, theres enough head vac to keep the lines full. they don't slowly empty? that's what the 5/16 do they drain off before freezing. hmmm never thought of the thaw factor, obviously smaller would thaw quicker helping flow quicker ultimately leading to more sap. how much drop would you say you have??

[psparr]

Yes, once everything is thawed it jumps up.
My lines never drain. Not sure about others experience.

[adk1]

I would start out with the 3/16 and see how it works. You can always add a vac to the 3/16 if you want

[boondocker]

I'm setting g up 4 new pipelines, 3 on natural vac and one on a 5/16 shurflo pump. All my mainlines are 3/4 except for the shurflo line is a 1/2" Main. One other question I have is on you 3/16 laterals are you going straight into the Main or are you guys using saddles with the loop into the Main?

[blissville maples]

one thing about vac pumps- they eliminate a portion of mother nature, when no freze for days gravity alone doesn't do well in which may not have a lot of flow even in 3/16''. where the 22'' from pump is always there. not to mention I hear the leaks are hard to find with nat vac, and leaks will kill that fast!

[DrTimPerkins]

They never empty, just freeze at night. In the morning they thaw faster than 5/16 and run well into the night.

Yes, that is correct. That 3/16" lines don't empty, so when they thaw out the next day they start right up. That is one big difference from 5/16" lines. The larger diameter 5/16" lines will empty, so there is nothing in the lines to get the vacuum started again the next day if the sap doesn't start running well.

[DrTimPerkins]

bruce Bascom said they had stopped it years ago due to excessive plugging in the small lines.

I think that is the one concern that some people have with 3/16" tubing. Time will tell.

[boondocker]

I'm going with everything 3/16 and go with natural vacuum, but I will have it set up on the tank end that if somthing doesn't pan out I will hook on my shurflo and let it suck. How are you guys hooking your 3/16 onto your main? Straight onto the sale or are you using hook connectors and looping it In?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I'll answer a couple questions here. I'm not the expert but I had 3/16 running for 7 days without a freeze last year. Key with it or vacuum is keeping Leaks out of system.

As far as saddles, I use hook connectors and loop into the saddle with 5/16 tubing and it works great.

[ennismaple]

HYbrid is the way to go.

Use the natural slope to its utmost and science and technology for all it provides.

You don't need $8K to get a good vac pump to provide what you are looking for. A repurposed dairy pump will give you as much as needed and can cost as little as $100. I got an Alamo 100+ for $100 with the reclaimer and a 7.5 hp working motor. This will be my main pump this season.

Some times even mother nature needs a little help. So add a pump to the system and get the vac up. Then mother nature can take over.

I fear that producer often see a full 3/16 line of sap flowing and think back to a 5/16 flowing slower. Just remember that it takes 2.6 5/16 to carry the flow of a 1/2" line; but it takes 7.1 3/16 lines to carry that same volume.

Remember it is the 30' of drop after the last tap on a 3/16 that makes the vacuum for all the taps on the line I saw a place a producer was planning to install 3/16. 40 feet of drop from the top of the ridge to the valley floor. Most of the trees were in the valley with a few on the ridge. He thought he could get 30" of vac on the entire bush and pump the sap up to a holding tank for pickup. 30' after the last tap, is the key to 3/16.

I heard the same thing from one of the major equipment dealer's rep at one of last year's OMSPA information days. If he was starting from scratch in his own woods and had the elevation difference from top to bottom he would install 3/16" with a dairy style pump (SP-22) that would pull 20"-22" Hg. The pump will overcome some leaks and will help get more sap from the taps near the mainline that don't have a lot of fall.

Unfortunately this isn't an option for us - I think we have a dozen laterals that drop 30' from top to bottom. If you're on the side of a mountain it will work great from what I hear!

[DrTimPerkins]

Key with it or vacuum is keeping Leaks out of system.

This is true of all vacuum systems, but is especially important for 3/16" tubing systems. That is probably the most difficult part for producers going from gravity tubing or buckets to vacuum....getting everything tight and leak-free. Once you master that, you're golden. Finding leaks in a pure 3/16" system is challenging, and different from a pumped system. This is another area where a hybrid system (3/16" tubing with a pump) will help.....detecting leaks.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr. Tim, I don't have much issues with finding leaks in 3/16 unless you drilled a hollow tree, then you might have an issue. On quite days, I have heard it hissing from 40 to 50 feet away but that is not normally the case. You can usually trace it back to where the bubbles change inside the tubing. Half of my 3/16 I washed with permeate and vinegar mixture and other half was just permeate. Going to try to repeat this year but I think the vinegar will me a difference and already seems to look a little better. Tim Wilmot and I talked about it when he was down here at my sugarbush for a seminar. He was interested in seeing how it does with vinegar vs non vinegar wash at the end of the season.

[PATheron]

Brandon- If I ever get an opportunity Id like to do a big side hill with the 3/16. Id like to find a really steep one and put a mainline across the slope that is appropriate for the flow and just lateral it from the top of the hill to the bottom. Be easy to maintain. Im even thinking put a small releaser on it and an sp22 pump. Keep the mainline as small as possible. Kind of worried about fittings plugging but it would be easy to wash if setup right. Other thing that worries me is it makes vac so fast it could come apart the middle of the lateral and still make vacuum and look like its allright. Id probly try to make the top of the hill accessable and put cheap gages at the top of all the laterals. Be very fast to hook up a lot of taps. Neat idea. Pumps need so many mainlines its a lot of work to put in. Seems like it would be cheap too. Great to use where electric isn't available. Only thing though with a regular system you really can find leaks fast because you can see it on the releaser and monitor it that way all the time. Guess with the 3/16 you would just figure on checking the end of the laterals every day. Maybe just a different work practice. Most of my woods are loaded heavy enough on the vacuum pump I can see one tap off at the releaser most everywhere I have systems so it does help you keep everything working that way because if you see it down you go right out and fix it. I wont usually see squirrel chews though so I pretty regularly go and check all the valves at each system to really keep everything working good. Theron

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim, I don't have much issues with finding leaks in 3/16...

It is not impossible, just different in some ways from finding leaks on pumped systems.

As for washing tubing with vinegar and water.....if it makes you feel good, do it. Probably not doing a lot in terms of sanitation.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't know if the vinegar will make a difference but I should know at the end of 2 years. Hoping to prohibit the growth of mold in lines and keep them cleaner. I don't think Proctor has tried it according to Tim Wilmot, but you would know for sure.