Need a gut check on cost

[Lazarus]

I could use a little perspective on a decision I need to make. We're trying to set up some brand new ground with a tubing system and vacuum in a hurry for next season. We've been working directly with one of the manufacturers and they have been working very hard to help us get this project done for 2016 (and I really do appreciate their interest and assistance). With that said though, my gut tells me maybe I need to take a step back and wait.

Our sugar house is offsite and we haul. The ground is flat enough that the recommendation is to have two pump houses - one at the front and one at the back of a parcel that is 2000 feet long and 1000 feet wide. If I include only the cost of tubing installation, vacuum equipment and some sap storage, and the 2000 feet of electric to run between the two buildings, I am at around $24 per tap for 4000 taps. I am excluding the cost of the buildings themselves, the driveway into the property, and the primary electric service to the front building.

To get this done quickly, I know we're paying a premium, I just don't know how much. The system is no doubt a top notch quality one. My alternative is to forgo the coming season on this ground, shop around, and take my time next year to get it set up for 2017. But if this cost is about right and maybe just a wee high, I'd hate to call it and find out next year it's really about that much anyway.

Thoughts anyone? Average cost per tap of tubing+vacuum?

[southfork]

Considering all the factors I do not think that price is out of line. Beware of budget jobs.

[DrTimPerkins]

Considering all the factors I do not think that price is out of line. Beware of budget jobs.

I agree with that assessment.

[spud]

The 2000 feet of electric is going to be a bunch for sure. I just set up a 3000 tap woods last year and I think I payed $35,000. That included Tank, Releaser, vacuum pump and a Goulds booster pump plus building a sap house and having power put in. Is it possible to wait a season and then do the install yourself? This could drop the price by $6-8.00 per tap. Just a thought.

Spud

[Lazarus]

The 2000 feet of electric is actually just a drop in that $96K bucket - it's $10K for that secondary line. $35K sounds like a steal, though it sounds like you already had an existing tubing installation, correct?

I'm terribly flattered you'd think me capable of doing the install! But I assure you, that's not remotely a potential consideration, or even a safe one. :lol:

[Ryan Mahar]

Pretty sure using only quality tubing materials and not shorting yourself on cutting corners, the average cost per tap for all tubing is about $10/tap. Then just factor the other stuff in like vacuum,housing etc as those are known fixed costs. The unknowns are always in woods. Length of runs, true number of taps etc..............I set up 1200 tap new system this year and that figure was very very close to $10/tap. ......that's what Leader told me to expect and based on my experience that was a pretty close estimate............

[southfork]

I had 5,000 taps professionally installed by Wes Schoepke ( WesFab) during 2014 and 2015. I am on very flat terrain and utilized 6 indoor and heated pump stations plus an R/O shed to get to this point, two vacuum pumps. This is a wet dry system and I contributed no labor as I work elsewhare.

I have it figured out in my personal bush, based on factual experience, that at current spend I will pay about $30 per tap for everything start to finish. This includes all installation, heated pump stations with lights, all plumbing, manifolds, releasers, site prep, road crossings, sap storage plus covers, redundancy in sap storage at stations, extractors, brush cutting, etc etc,... everything. Roughly then, to add another 3,000 taps to my current system it will cost about $90,000 (or so, probably less). I have already run power so that cost is minimal from here on out, other than connecting up. R/O cost was separate, but not plumbing for R/O. All equipment is brand new, stainless steel tanks and stainless couplers, no cut corners.

There are large variables from bush to bush such as brush cutting, tree density, slope, road crossings, number of needed pump stations, extractors, number of main lines, site prep for stations, etc. etc. You will receive a lot of opinions and all may be correct in certain situations. I do feel I paid a premium, however I know I have a quality job. I have seen quality jobs, and some horrific ones as well.

This is simply my own personal experience, in my own sugarbush. We completed the worst part of my 15,000 potential taps first so am hoping costs go down as we proceed. This would be due to fewer pump stations needed per 3,000 taps. Opinions and costs will vary greatly. I do believe Wes is a respected and quality installer in Wisconsin.

[Lazarus]

You are correct, it's hard without knowing the terrain. The ground is basically a simple flat rectangle. There are no big drops or valleys. There are no road crossings or other obstacles. The terrain is clear and easy to navigate. The elevation at the rear is 15 feet lower than the front (2000 feet away). The trees are fairly even spread and almost all red maple with some sugars at the back. Not a lot of brush. This is southern Ohio, so the tree density is not going to be impressive enough to write home about.

This will be a wet/dry system with a very simple grid layout for mainlines. Two sheds - one at the very middle back of the woods, and one at the very front corner. Sap will run to a building at the back where there will be an electric releaser. The big pumps will be in the front building and will move the sap forward from the back building to the front for storage and pickup. I didn't include the cost of buildings in the count, but for the first year we'd plan a simple Lowe's storage shed (<800) for the back and a mobile container (~2000) for the front. Both will have small electric or propane heaters in them for chilly nights. This being an El Nino year, I'm more worried it's ever going to freeze down here than it freeze too much. We'd look to replace the sheds over time with something a bit more permanent (and safer).

Already running a small RO back at the main sugar house, 10 minutes away. Small, but beats our evaporator boil rate so we can go inline. We'll be hauling sap, not concentrate (even though SERIOUSLY, we could use a much smaller truck to haul concentrate, but I've been told under pain of death to never ever ever haul concentrate). :mad:

[southfork]

Many guys short haul concentrate. Long hauls are in refrigerated milk tankers. We haul concentrate about 20 miles. It is very important however to R/O quickly (with a large gph R/O) to shorten concentrate tank filling time, then process in evaporator very quickly(within hours).

I will say that just because we haul concentrate does not make it as good as directly and immediatly processing onsite. We no doubt give up some grade. By transferring we can process from 19,000 taps in one location, rather than the expense of two sugarhouses or processing plants. Always a give and take.