Will this ladder work?

[TylerMcT]

12242 think this sap ladder will work ? Looking for feedback

[maple flats]

Maybe! Are those 5/16 lines between bottom and top? While a star might work better, you have the idea. You would be best if the 5/16 came off fittings facing down, and at the top have the fittings up and the 5/16 curve up and then down onto the fittings. For something like that you likely want about 15 taps/vertical 5/16 line. If those are 1/2" or 3/4" vert. lines you have too many verticals unless you are at 2-300 taps. I do well with a ladder for 60 taps. It is a 1" line that splits at a tee, with 3/4" going each way, level, for a few inches, then an ell on each pointing straight up. The top is just the mirror of the bottom. In one of those vertical lines I have a ball valve, on slow flow that valve is almost closed, when a high flow day I open it maybe 1/2 way. That works well for me.

[BreezyHill]

Hate to be a kill joy; but no.

The way you have it setup it will not work well at all.

Remember that you are looking to ride the sap on a bubble of tree gas or air. When the lower connector is on top, the gas will be pulled off the top off the pipe and only a small amount of sap will be raised.
12247 This ladder would not function...some ding dong(ME) installed the star wrong.

The straighter the line to the top the better in any size other than 5/16. In 5/16 you can have bends with little to minimal affect.

If you can eliminate an elbow on the top you will increase flow and reduce slippage. Slippage is the sap draining back down the riser. There will always be some slippage as the sap coats the riser wall and vac transfers in the center of the riser the most.

12243 This is the top manifold I have switched over to, for the most efficient ladder.

Send me an email and I will forward a video of my glass ladder so you can see what I am talking about and how an elbow affects the sap flow.

On a 1" line I run 4 half inch risers wide open, all the time to not reduce vac transfer past the ladder. I find that keeping the main inline and rotating the inlet to each riser slightly will balance the air between all risers.

I will post a pic of the bottom when I find it or go take another.
1224812249



Ben

[jcb]

BreezyHill, What is the reason for the 5th riser at the end coming off the top ? I am assuming that goes to the open fitting on your manifold.
Great looking set up BTW

[BreezyHill]

BreezyHill, What is the reason for the 5th riser at the end coming off the top ? I am assuming that goes to the open fitting on your manifold.
Great looking set up BTW

That was a F...up. I was going to have one manifold but decided not to hook the dry line into this manifold. And leave it as a star fitting for the time being.12251

The other ladder was the dry line that became a wet line also in last seasons expansion.
I will be putting the black on the top of the manifold and a blue line into the sugar house off the bottom of the manifold to try and keep the sap cooler in the end of season.

I had to run black lines since the brook valley freezes the lines before the bush stopped running, but the elevated lines are high enough to not freeze so a 500' x 1" blue line will be added to ladder #3.

This manifold was one of several experiment, most failed but this one worked well. So now the ladders down the line will be retro fitted with 1/2" risers and a new wet line will be added to the system.

[TylerMcT]

Thanks guys ,

So will the top be ok? I don't see much difference between your manifold on the top other than being larger. I understand your reasoning behind not pointing the bottom up, liquid is lazy...

[BreezyHill]

I cant make out the top well in the pics but the fewer elbows the better since sap will be rushing up the riser and a change in direction reduces flow tremendously. It is very important to keep the top as level as possible to maintain even distribution of vac transfer to all risers when using same size as the main line.

The reason for the design of the manifold being larger was to have a space that the sap could flow in and the insert connector is positioned to enter on the side wall to promote the sap to flow to the mainline. The inserts are also threaded in as far as possible to be in the open space above the sap flow. The riser of 1/2", is nearly 1/16 of the volume of the 2" manifold. This nearly eliminates the chance that sap will ever pool over the top of the riser; blocking it's free flow in to the manifold. Ice would be the only way I can see sap pooling over the top of the inserts.

I have spent several hours watching how the sap flows up 1", 3/4", and 5/16" risers and only an hour or two with the 1/2" risers; but in that time I have never seen the problems that plague the first three sizes occur in the 1/2" risers. The slow speed of thaw, lack of back running or circular flow in a ladder, I have not seen in 1/2"

Unrestricted flow increases your vac transfer past the ladder thus increasing your production of laddered taps.

I do not have enough experimentation on the style of top that you have to say it will not work well enough; but I have enough to say it will not work as well as a manifold design. When I first visited this site it was from a friend that had read a post that ladders don't work and when he saw all of mine and the flow from them he insisted I needed to get on the Trader and help these guys out. I did not know that ladders "didn't work". So for me to tell you that the top will not work is past my moral boundaries, since there may be a producer out there that has used this very setup and has had success.

I believe in the principal that every system is different and that even a subtle change will influence the response in a design.
Obviously you have invested time and supplies in making this ladder. So investing a little more time in getting the top level with a couple of copper pipe supports screwed to the tree could make all the difference you need.

I also find that having sun on the ladder as much as possible is also very important. I like mine on the south side of the support tree. I do have one on the north side but the south side would be in full wind, so it is shaded part of mid day.

[blissville maples]

why not just use stars, if worried about vac transfer I think adding extra star or two would aid in that

[BreezyHill]

why not just use stars, if worried about vac transfer I think adding extra star or two would aid in that

extra stars will pool the feed line and stop the ladder from operating. Ladders work on a balance of gas to sap...disrupt the balance and failure is the result.

[blissville maples]

ill keep my eye on this, but I cant see that happening. flow varies from day to day which could mimick the addition of stars if a slow run(more stars =less sap per star, poor run = less sap per star). ive never had a problem on slow run. if theres sap at feed line or bottom of ladder, it will go up stars. principal is vac difference, one side of sap is high other is low, they will try to equalize, but with cfms behind it they never get equal always a flow