2016 Pro Homemade RO for 4-500 taps Invested $1500 so far

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I am a hobby maple producer entering my 4th year. For my retirement entertaiment I have built my own equipment so far with the exception of the Smoky Lake pans I use for my 2x6 Pro evaporator for a 32gph boil. Second year I built the arch, third year was the arch expansion, and my tubing vacuum system.
Now it is time to build the RO! I will update periodically over the next few weeks with pictures for future reference material for others. I have sure used previous posts.

I have spent again, many hours on the sites and researching others successes and failures. Now I am ready to make my own! I have invested a grand total of $1519 in parts to begin assembly of my unit. I still need to build the structure, and purchase what plumbing parts, and wire that I do not have on hand.
This unit will have a low press feed pump, 3/4 HP Elec motor driven Procon Series 5 pump, 2 ea 4x40 MES membranes, a 6 gallon wash tank with a 220V 3500W heater.
The electrical system will be a 220V supply that I will plug into my connector in my 8 X 14 sugarhouse, or my portable generator. I have an electrical box CB holder, and 2 ea 25A 220v contactors for my pumps, with panel switches and a low pressure cutoff for the Procon protection. I have not decided to install a high pressure cutoff switch. The wash tank heater will be controlled by my $15 STC-1000 digital temp controller. I also will have a TDS meter.
I have not made a real drawing of how I am planning this. I have most of it in my head, and need to draw it out again. I will come up with some ideas of how I want to plumb everything as I assemble this thing.
Here is my list. All prices include tax and shipping (if applicable).
Sources were ebay, Zoro, Forever Pure for flow meters and press gauges, Procon from Amazon warehouse deals (someones return).


1. 3/4 HP Marathon 48Y Motor $135
2. Procon Series 5 SS 265gph $99
3. 1/2 HP Shallow Well Pump $63
4. 2ea SS 4" membrane housings $200
5. 2ea MES 4" membranes $430
6. Pentek 150071 Filter Assy w/bracket $33
7. 12ea 5 micron cartridges $43
8. Low Press switch $25
9. 0-100 press gauge $31
10. 0-300 press gauge $31
11. LZT-1002-M .2-2.0 flow meter $33
12. LZT-1005-V .5-5.0 flow meter w/vlv $44
13. TDS Monitor $30
14. 3 ea SS flex lines $100
15. 2 ea SS 3 way valves $30
16. 30 QT SS Stock Pot $42
17. 220V 3500W Heater Element $10
18. Heater Controller STC-1000 w/probe $20
19. 10" x 10" NEMA 1 Electrical Box $31
20. 2ea 220V 25A Eaton Contactors $33
21. 2ea SPST switches $12

Total Cost $1519

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Wash tank heater installed...122341223512236

I have already made an error. My STC-1000 is only rated at 10A. I have another controller rated at 30A I can use instead.

Eric

[wiam]

Just use a relay.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Just use a relay.Thanks, but no need. The controller I have will work as a stand alone unit.

[MapleMark753]

So, looks like a good start. Why no high pressure switch? Pressure will surely build over even a pretty short time as you're using it (and maybe doing other things too).
Your plan/list has some bells and whistles that some home built ROs don't have, and this is just my opinion, but if you have the other stuff, why not add the high pressure switch? It could save your RO, and probably would give you some peace of mind.

good luck!

Mark

[Clinkis]

So, looks like a good start. Why no high pressure switch? Pressure will surely build over even a pretty short time as you're using it (and maybe doing other things too).
Your plan/list has some bells and whistles that some home built ROs don't have, and this is just my opinion, but if you have the other stuff, why not add the high pressure switch? It could save your RO, and probably would give you some peace of mind.

good luck!

Mark

Very good advice. I blew my endcap of twice last season when my pressure crept up on me when I got preoccupied. First time it did it the end cap was damaged and I had to scramble and drive 6 hours to get a replacement. My RO will be retrofitted with a high pressure switch before the beginning of this coming season.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Very good advice.
I mentioned the high pressure switch because I have been balking. With you two advocating it, I am going to order this one I had on my saved links, unless someone has a good alternative.
http://www.omega.com/pptst/PSW-581.html

[sugarphil]

Hello, cool setup.

I'm curious about your calculations for the system ? Did you just ballpark it or did you calculate feedflow with a certain GPH permeate and recovery rate to chose the pump and membranes ?

1 - I'm just saying, but looking, for exemple, at the HP requirements for the Procon Series 5 265GPH pump, the pump needs a bit more than 3/4HP if you plan on running it anywhere higher than 200 PSI psi (at wich pressure it would output 259 GPH). https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series%205%20Pump_spec.pdf.

2 - For the membranes, one 4x40 seem to be rated at 2400 GPD at 77F under 225 psi and 15% recovery rate. To reach these specs for 2 membranes (4800 GPD), with a feed flow at 225 PSI, I calculate the needed feed flow to be 1333 GPH (15% = 4800 GPD permeate, 100% = 32000 GPD feed flow). A bit more than 5 times the GPH output of your Procon pump for that pressure.

With the current pump, at 225 PSI (assuming 3/4 HP) the pump should output around between 228-232 GPH of feed flow (lets assume 230GPH) (see pump specs link higher), at 15% recovery rate, this would get you a permeate flow of 34,5 GPH (witch is not bad if thats where your needs are) but only one membrane would have done the same job. I would suggest you use your membrane in series, because I suspect the low feedflow (230GPH compared to the needed 666 GPH membrane spec) would fool the membranes faster if the're setup in paralell.


3 - Also, the serie 5 pump seem it can be set to a max relief pressure of 250 PSI. Looking at some of the 4x40 membranes available on the web, the ones I could find have rated max pressures of 600 PSI, therefore the pressure relief valve on the pump will open and protect the membranes much before the max pressure of the membranes could be reached.

Unless other parts of the setup are not suited to whitstand 250 PSI I would think you already have a high pressure switch built in the pump relief valve ? I'm not sure but I would think there should be a way to set the relief valve to the lowest max pressure rating of any components in the system.

I'm brand new to this RO thing/setup, so if anybody would like to conterverify my points and come up with some other explanations/remarks, I'd be more than happy.

Thanks

[sugarphil]

Hello again,

1- Looking at your parts list, I found that the Pentek 150071 Filter seems rated at 125 psi max pressure :( .

I'ts not saying that you cant run it higher, but I would think it's a bit asking for trouble. So if you went with the pressure switch as you state in your last post, I would think you would need to set it not verry much higher than 125 PSI, to avoid possible break-ups.

2- Oh (again not an experts advice) but if my last calculations are right, and the best permeate flow available with the setup is 34.5 GPH or about .5 GPM (thats @ 77F, 225 PSI), then the permeate flow meter LZT-1002-M would be usefull.

But, IF your sap temp is lower then 77F or the runnig pressure is set lower than 225 PSI (because of the 125 max PSI cartidge pressure) then I would think the permeate flow could be lower then the .2 GPM minimum reading capbility of the LZT-1002-M. Rendering the flow meter somewhat useless.


Just My 2 cents, absolutly not from an expert, again if anybody would like to verify this it could be interresting to read other thaughts from experienced RO users.

Some people tell me I tend to think too much before doing a project, and they verry might be right, I admire people that sometimes just decide to go with it. So please keep us in touch with the developpements and possibly the results from the setup.

Thanks

[bowhunter]

Hope you kept the receipts for all the components so you can swap some of them out. You have to start with a design basis before you buy equipment. How many gallons of sap do you want to process per hour? Do you want to feed directly into the evaporator or do you want to recirculate back to a sap storage tank? Make sure you understand the membrane cleaning requirements before you design the washing system. While temperature is important pH is even more important.

The pump you've purchased really isn't big enough for two 4 inch membranes in parallel. You need about 700 GPH of pumping capacity including recirculation for two 4 inch membranes in parallel. You could probably get by with running them in series although the pump is still a little small. These membranes are probably not the best option for a low pressure sap (250 psi) RO system. Nano Filtration or Filmtec XLE's are designed to operate at lower pressures and might be a better choice. You can build the system with the components you have, but the performance may be disappointing.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Hello, cool setup.

I'm curious about your calculations for the system ? Did you just ballpark it or did you calculate feedflow with a certain GPH permeate and recovery rate to chose the pump and membranes ?

1 - I'm just saying, but looking, for exemple, at the HP requirements for the Procon Series 5 265GPH pump, the pump needs a bit more than 3/4HP if you plan on running it anywhere higher than 200 PSI psi (at wich pressure it would output 259 GPH). https://store-c59cb.mybigcommerce.com/content/Series%205%20Pump_spec.pdf.

2 - For the membranes, one 4x40 seem to be rated at 2400 GPD at 77F under 225 psi and 15% recovery rate. To reach these specs for 2 membranes (4800 GPD), with a feed flow at 225 PSI, I calculate the needed feed flow to be 1333 GPH (15% = 4800 GPD permeate, 100% = 32000 GPD feed flow). A bit more than 5 times the GPH output of your Procon pump for that pressure.

With the current pump, at 225 PSI (assuming 3/4 HP) the pump should output around between 228-232 GPH of feed flow (lets assume 230GPH) (see pump specs link higher), at 15% recovery rate, this would get you a permeate flow of 34,5 GPH (witch is not bad if thats where your needs are) but only one membrane would have done the same job. I would suggest you use your membrane in series, because I suspect the low feedflow (230GPH compared to the needed 666 GPH membrane spec) would fool the membranes faster if the're setup in paralell.


3 - Also, the serie 5 pump seem it can be set to a max relief pressure of 250 PSI. Looking at some of the 4x40 membranes available on the web, the ones I could find have rated max pressures of 600 PSI, therefore the pressure relief valve on the pump will open and protect the membranes much before the max pressure of the membranes could be reached.

Unless other parts of the setup are not suited to whitstand 250 PSI I would think you already have a high pressure switch built in the pump relief valve ? I'm not sure but I would think there should be a way to set the relief valve to the lowest max pressure rating of any components in the system.

I'm brand new to this RO thing/setup, so if anybody would like to conterverify my points and come up with some other explanations/remarks, I'd be more than happy.

Thanks

Wow... For someone claiming to be new, you sure seem to have a lot of acquired knowledge on this!

I do spend a dime trying to save a nickel now and then, and this is maybe the case here.

I am not a numbers cruncher, and cannot respond well on the detail, but you seem to be right on the surface on the numbers that I have reviewed. I originally planned on a single membrane, but decided to build it for two for future use or resale value. I got such a good price on the Procon pump, and trying to save the cost of the adapter ($75), I went with the 48Y (clamp style) 3/4 HP motor, knowing it would restrict my pressure to 200psi at the 265gph flow rate. The 600 psi max is irrelevent, and I will get more pressure output than the rating from the procon, as it is supplied an initial pressure that is acting as a boost pump.
On the issue of low flow, and fouling, I will have the TDS meter and can clean more often if needed I will not need to use this long hours with my 350 taps.
I have spend many, many hours on the forums reviewing other peoples successes and went with my gut on that. As for all the second guessing my selection of equipment, I think I have made reasonable choices, and think I will be satisfied with my creation.
I think the folks at Maple Expert Solutions know a little bit about what is required to operate the membrane that they produce when they design and sell up to 16 inch membrane RO's, and a series of hobby RO's and their "Dolly 225" 225gph machine is powered by a 1/2 hp feed pump. and a 3/4 hp motor to run a 2 membrane 4x40 designed to run at 200 psi.... Many previous successes have found that their units run best at 180-200 psi..
http://www.mapleexperts.com/MESDollySpecSheets.pdf
In the end, the truth will be known in my success or failure (not likely from my track record).

Eric


Hello again,

1- Looking at your parts list, I found that the Pentek 150071 Filter seems rated at 125 psi max pressure :( .

I'ts not saying that you cant run it higher, but I would think it's a bit asking for trouble. So if you went with the pressure switch as you state in your last post, I would think you would need to set it not verry much higher than 125 PSI, to avoid possible break-ups.

2- Oh (again not an experts advice) but if my last calculations are right, and the best permeate flow available with the setup is 34.5 GPH or about .5 GPM (thats @ 77F, 225 PSI), then the permeate flow meter LZT-1002-M would be usefull.

But, IF your sap temp is lower then 77F or the runnig pressure is set lower than 225 PSI (because of the 125 max PSI cartidge pressure) then I would think the permeate flow could be lower then the .2 GPM minimum reading capbility of the LZT-1002-M. Rendering the flow meter somewhat useless.


Just My 2 cents, absolutly not from an expert, again if anybody would like to verify this it could be interresting to read other thaughts from experienced RO users.

Some people tell me I tend to think too much before doing a project, and they verry might be right, I admire people that sometimes just decide to go with it. So please keep us in touch with the developpements and possibly the results from the setup.

Thanks

With all do respect....
I Have not gone into this without lots of planning and research. I am not going to return anything from the advise I have received. I have analyzed it and rejected some of it. The example above, of the filter rating is an example of flawed analysis. To my knowledge, all RO's have a filter on the low pressure side of the system, and would never see pressures over 20-40 psi I think.
I appreciate the input, but like so many things in life, we must weed out the bad information, lest we be led down the golden path.

Thanks,

Eric

[sugarphil]

Thinking of my last post about the sediment filter, I didnt realise youd probably put it between the low pressure feed pump and the Procon so if you do it like that then it's max pressure rating whouldnt be your pressure limiting factor.

I would think the limiting component would probably be some connection fiting or something so I suggest you keep that factor in mind when thinking about the connections between high pressure components.

[bowhunter]

You won't burn the motor up. The overloads will just trip if the pressure runs too high. You can probably make it work at some level, but the performance would have been much better with membranes rated at 70-100 psi vs. 225 psi. Permeation flow with cold sap is really low. Maybe only 25% at the rated pressure. I would return the membranes and get something rated at 70-100 psi. The membranes are such a problem that you've taken a system that should be able to process over 150 gallons per hour with an NF 270 membrane and derated it to 30 gallons per hour.

As for the fouling, the TSD meter won't really do you much good. The fouling comes from higher concentrations of high molecular weight sugars. If the flows are too low the fouling will be so rapid the systems won't run long between cleaning...maybe only 2-3 hours.

Make sure you run all the permeate back through the membranes after each day to flush out the membrane and minimize cleaning frequency.

[sugarphil]

i've worked with pool/spa equipement and If I remember well, a lot of pumps use 56c frames (I would need to recheck that). I think with a bit of luck on Craigslist and some thinkering you could easily fetch a cheap 1+ hp there. Of course youl need to fit an approriate adapter/coupler to such a motor.

[mkoehler79]

Eric,
I have also ordered two of the MES (4040 MS1) Membranes for my very similar Homemade RO project and understand them to be on the same performance level as an XLE-4040 in regards to pressure (spec sheets says 125 psi for test condition). I believe these will be very similar in performance to the "lower pressure" membranes. Here is the link to the data sheet for membranes I have purchased: http://www.mapleexperts.com/4040%20MS1%20membrane%20spec%20sheet-final.pdf

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Thinking of my last post about the sediment filter, I didnt realise youd probably put it between the low pressure feed pump and the Procon so if you do it like that then it's max pressure rating whouldnt be your pressure limiting factor.

I would think the limiting component would probably be some connection fiting or something so I suggest you keep that factor in mind when thinking about the connections between high pressure components.

I am going to order a high press cutout switch.

Another big factor in my pressure and flow limitations with the 3/4 HP, is the fact that I have a feed pump that will help things along. The Procon will have a helper! I believe I remember reading this before in my research. I am going to stick with what I have, and see what happens.

[Clinkis]

I run my single XLE 4040 with 190 gph procon pump with no pressure relief. XLE are an excellent membrane for sap but they do need higher pressure then NF membranes so you usually don't want any pressure releif on your pump. I run mine at 250-275 psi and it works excellent. Without recirculating I can process approx 150 gph of raw sap and remove around 30% of the water. With recirculation I can get up to 80% water removal but my gph drops to 50 gph. If you are running below 200psi your performance will be much lower especially when you get to higher concentration.

[bowhunter]

You should check a couple of things before you to go ahead and build it. 1) Determine which MES membrane you have. If it's rated at 225 psi you need to buy lower pressure membranes. The 225 psi membrane are called high rejection membranes and are designed to polish water to very high purities. They are not good for the lower pressure RO's. 2)Verify the design pressure for the membrane housings. Most of them, even stainless steel, are not rate above 250 psi. This could be a problem when using a booster pump with the ProCon pump.

Remember if your membrane is one of the high rejection membranes rated at 225 psi, the capacity will be really low on cold sap. This type membrane is the worst membrane for sap processing at pressures below 400 psi.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

You should check a couple of things before you to go ahead and build it. 1) Determine which MES membrane you have. If it's rated at 225 psi you need to buy lower pressure membranes. The 225 psi membrane are called high rejection membranes and are designed to polish water to very high purities. They are not good for the lower pressure RO's. 2)Verify the design pressure for the membrane housings. Most of them, even stainless steel, are not rate above 250 psi. This could be a problem when using a booster pump with the ProCon pump.

Remember if your membrane is one of the high rejection membranes rated at 225 psi, the capacity will be really low on cold sap. This type membrane is the worst membrane for sap processing at pressures below 400 psi.

Where did you get this information? I would like to research this further. I checked all their spec sheets and nothing is tested over 150psi. MES (Maple Expert Solutions) makes RO's and all there small "MES DOLLY" RO's are tested at 125 PSI. I am sure that this is the membranes I got from Clayton when I met him in Henniker, NH. Two for $430 "out the door".
I bought the MES 4040 MS1, and they are tested at 125psi
http://mapleexperts.com/4040%20MS1%20membrane%20spec%20sheet-final.pdf
The more I look, the better I feel. The Dow Filmtec XLE-4040 is tested at 145psi, and gets a 2600gpd flow. The 4040 MS1 is tested at 125 psi and gets a higher flow rate at 2900gpd at the same temperatures.
MES DOLLY info...
http://mapleexperts.com/Products.html
DOLLY spec sheet... http://mapleexperts.com/MESDollySpecSheets.pdf

Thanks for the heads up. I checked my $99.99 housings delivered to my door. Labeled, rated at 300psi

[bowhunter]

I agree with your assessment. I'm not familiar with their membranes and someone had posted the rating pressure as 225psi which would be fine for a high pressure RO system. They are still much lower capacity than the nano filtration membranes. You should operate the system on sap at about 2 times the capacity rated pressure. So if the membrane is rate for 125 psi, 250 psi is about the right operating pressure.

Vendors play all kinds of games with the capacity numbers using different rating pressures. Generally speaking the price of the membrane tells you a lot about the capacity. The higher the price the higher the capacity. A membrane rated at 125 psi has much lower capacity than a membrane rated at 70 psi. As an example I just ran your membrane through my capacity model and compared it to a Filmtec NF270 rated at 2500 GPD at 70 psi. Using 2.2% sap, 40 Degree F and 200 psi. Your MES membrane has the capacity to remove 70% of the water from 66 gallons per hour of sap. The NF270 has the capacity to remove 70% of the water from 111 gallons per hour of sap. The NF 270 has 68% more capacity for the same size membrane under the same conditions. This means you would probably have to add a second membrane in series to match the NF270 capacity at the same operating conditions.

Good luck with your build. Your RO will function ok, but it has more capacity if you elect to go with another membrane.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Good luck with your build. Your RO will function ok, but it has more capacity if you elect to go with another membrane.

I do have budget limitations.

What you are saying is, that I am better off with the MES over the XLE-4040 which has a higher rated pressure (145 vs. 125)? The XLE is closer to the price range. The NF270 is significantly more money. I only opted for the MES over the XLE. Did I make a mistake in your opinion, and why?

[Clinkis]

If I remember correctly the MES membranes and the XLE membranes have similar characteristics. Either one will work just fine as long as you size your high pressure pump with the appropriate GPH and PSI. I decided to go with XLE mainly because of price but was also told that the NF membranes are more suseptible to passing sugar if concentrating to high levels. Everyone has their opinion on what is the best membrane to use. I love my XLE and some people prefer the NF. Either will work fine as long as you design your system to match the characteristics of which ever membrane you have.

[BreezyHill]

Two seasons ago I had to install new vessels and membranes in my Memtek RO. The old ones were missing some how. I spoke at length with Joe from Atlantic RO and he suggested XLEs over the NF. Friends had also suggested these over having run NFs in the past.

MY unit is an old commercial unit we bought in 1982. It is of the high pressure days. 500 psi and up. I have run my xles as high as 450 with no issues. I only go over 200 when I am running out of storage room for sap. Generally I run at 200 psi.

I did have an issue right off the bat passing sugar but it was that I did not have enough permeate flow to keep the membrane flushed of sugar. The DOW tech said no less than 3 gpm from permeate side and not more than 13 GPM into the vessel. After that I had no issues. I will need to add another pair of membranes parallel to the current pair to get the most out of this machine as the 5 hp piston pump can make far more than 13 gpm when unleashed.

I will be buying 2 more XLEs to have the system balanced; but I am one that likes to try new tech if there is a chance that it will make a better return on investment. But I hate being the guinea pig for new tech. Don't have time for that during sap season or in trucks.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I got started on assembly today...
Built frame assy with panel, and mounted pressure gauges, flowmeters, pump switches, two 3-way valves, and the TDS meter. About 5 hrs. Next I will mount feed pump, filter assy, high pressure pump, membrane assys, wash tank, and electrical box.
I think then it will be all plumbing and electrical...


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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Another late night. Started early evening and got things rolling along...

I need some large hose clamps to retain the membrane housings in the saddles I built. I have spent another $200 or so on all kinds of brass fittings, PVC, wire, three 20A 220V C.B.'s. I am using 1/4 flare copper for the pressure gauges. I am using PVC and high pressure SS flex into membranes, and all PEX out, including into wash tank, which is what the 3-way valves are for.
I have very nearly everything I need, and total cost seems to be around $1800

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

After reading another thread on over pressure failure, I have ordered this switch to add to the mix..

http://www.omega.com/pptst/PSW-581.html

[bowhunter]

The MES and the XLE are rated at different pressures and they have different daily rated capacity so you can't easily compare them by just looking at the specs. They look to me like they have about the same capacity when operating at the same pressure, so they will be priced about the same. The pump, membrane housings, etc are pretty expensive so I prefer to spend a little more on the membrane so I can run a smaller unit. The NF are more expensive because they have more capacity.

Dave

[DoubleBrookMaple]

The MES and the XLE are rated at different pressures and they have different daily rated capacity so you can't easily compare them by just looking at the specs. They look to me like they have about the same capacity when operating at the same pressure, so they will be priced about the same. The pump, membrane housings, etc are pretty expensive so I prefer to spend a little more on the membrane so I can run a smaller unit. The NF are more expensive because they have more capacity.

DaveLike has been said... You usually get what you pay for.

Eric

[DoubleBrookMaple]

One more day. I got the membranes mounted securely with SS band clamps. completed TDS install with John Guest adapter in SS tees on the LP side of the flowmeter(s). Mounted the electrical box with busbar power distribution with three 220V 20A circuit breakers(Feed Pump, HP Pump, and Wash Tank Heater) Pump contactors also installed in box.

Eric

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

A couple more hours today to plumb the membrane top ports to the two flowmeter inlets. I am using Eaton SS PTFE hoses for the high pressure lines in and out of the membranes. Just fittings and the SS flex hoses. I had three 18" lines and ordered a 12" line to the missing line in the photo below. All the low pressure lines are PEX, with Blue for permeate, Red for Concentrate. I am reworking the flowmeter outlets with the John Guest fittings for the TDS probes. In the previous post, if you look, I had them orientated down, so sap would not drain from them. I am also changing to 1/2-1/2-3/8 tees to eliminate the adapters for the 3/8 John Guest fittings for the 1/4 probes.
Prototyping!!!!! You gotta love wood! Note where I cut away the wood frame for tubing clearance..
Eaton PTFE hose http://www.zoro.com/eaton-aeroquip-ptfe-hose-12-idx12-l-brass-1500-psi-1pcp6/i/G1613875/
Eric

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

A couple more hours this evening cementing all my PVC lines from Feed Pump to filter to HP pump to HP (membrane) manifold. I have installed a filter inlet temp gauge, an LP cutoff switch, LP 0-100 gauge 1/4" flare fitting, a High Pressure cutoff switch, and drain valves for high and low pressure manifolds.
The 3/4" PVC is rated at 480 psi working pressure, and the 1/2" is 600 psi, but I am concerned with the fatigue factor, and the pump vibration causing stress cracks. I am going to secure the HP manifold on a block with cushion clamps to hopefully alleviate this issue.

LP Feed pump installation

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HP installation, with LP manifold and HP manifold

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LP manifold, pressure cutout switch and 0-100 gauge flare fitting

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HP manifold with HP cutout switch and drain valve.. LP manifold drain valve in forground

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[DoubleBrookMaple]

Another night....
Completed LP feed pump, HP Procon pump, LP cutoff switch, and HP cutoff switch wiring installation. I racked my brain for quite a while with this. I installed three panel switches planning on an LP pump start/override switch, and two more for some reason, but lost my plan in my brain somewhere. I had a plan to cutout both pumps but lost my train of thought on that.
Anyway, I removed the shallow well pump mounted switch and hard wired it without in favor of continuous operation, over constant cycling on and off. I am installing a pressure regulating bypass valve to maintain constant pressure (to be determined).
In the wiring diagram attached, you will hopefully see and agree that the LP pump switch will turn on the pump and close the low pressure cutoff switch, allowing the HP pump to turn on when selected on with the HP pump switch, that receives power when the LP pump contactor is closed.
If the LP pump contactor is opened for any reason, or the HP over pressure switch is closed, the HP pump contactor will open, and the HP pump will stop.
It will be some time until I test this, so if anyone sees that I have made an error, let me know.
I still need to wire the 20' 10/3 power cord into the electrical box, as well as the wash tank heater power to the remaining unused C.B.
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[DoubleBrookMaple]

PICs of the Pumps Wiring I explained in the previous post...

Feed Pump and High Pressure Pump switches
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Electrical panel
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LP cutoff switch (top) and HP cutoff switch (bottom
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Feed Pump with switch removed and press sensor tubing crimped off
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[sugarphil]

Wow thats a nice setup, I'd be impatient to try it out if I where you.

Keep us posted

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Another bit of brain damage...

When I wired the Marathon pump, I found it wired for 120V, and CCW rotation. The Procon pumps are CW rotation viewed from plate end.
It took me an hour to figure what jumpers to swap and had to do this after I had mounted the pump, which I could have avoided. I found a nice diagram of the motor switch board and motor wiring online, as I could hardly see mine to read it.
http://attachments.temcoindustrialpower.com/Wiring_diagram/Marathon-5KH37PNA479X-wiring.pdf

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I wired up the wash tank heater and controller today. The $15 controller like the one I have for my 275 gal stock water storage tank includes a probe. This is a 30A controller to power my 2500W element and is wired 220v for control, that I ran 16 gauge wires off the C.B. (so they are not protected), and I wired one of the 120V wires through the control, for the heater element. the other 120V side is hot off the C.B. to the element, and these are all 12 ga. To clarify, I have one 120V wire hot to the element, and the other 120V wire controlled to supply the element with 240V . I wired in the 10/3 main power feeder cord today, and when I put on the NEMA L1430 plug on the cord I will have the electrical complete.

Controller Face (note the right control buttton labels are turned 90 deg, a defect I cannot fix and will get another maybe)

12463

Controller wiring.. "Load" is the 120V leg to the element (this is the relay), "Control" is 220V supply for the controller, and "NTC" is the probe.

12464

Heater Element wired with ground to tank

12465

Electrical Box complete

12466

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Got a couple hours in tonight, and plumbed in feed pump pressure regulator valve and wash tank outlet with shutoff valve, and R.O. feed pump sap supply line.

12550

I will install a 3/4" shutoff valve at sap supply inlet to isolate during wash cycle.
Or, I can do this....

12551

REVISION!!!
HERE IS A 3/4 INCH REWORK OF THE WASH TANK TO FEED PUMP LINE FROM 1/2 as above pic..... my original intention was 3/4, but I got strayed off course.. I don't know if 1/2 would have restricted flow, but better to be safe now, as it just took an hour or so with parts on hand..

12554

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Nearly complete...
Installed all low pressure tubing and fittings today from membranes to flow meters to 3 way valves, and to wash tank and RO outlet connectors. I switched from my original plan of pex, which was way to stiff, to clear tubing and barb fittings. Installed TDS monitor probes with John Guest fittings, I drilled wash pan inlet holes for 1/2 inch fittings as shown. I installed the RO outlet connectors in panel with a concentrate test valve, also as shown.

Rear View of Panel and plumbing...

12598

TDS monitor probes at flow meter outlets

12599

Wash Tank inlet fittings

12600

RO Outlet connectors with concentrate test valve

12601

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Complete!
Testing results to follow.....
1261612617126181261912620

[DoubleBrookMaple]

What could possibly go wrong....

1. HP pump motor rotation wired wrong .
2. 3-way valves hooked up wrong, and blew a line off
3. Wash tank heater C.B. set and unit powered up at 150 degrees (no on/off switch like my other one) with no water in tank.
4. My $99 Amazon "warehouse deals" Procon Series 5 pump pressure adjustment valve bad.

All in all it didn't go bad after a couple hours I got everything right. Fortunately, I shut off the heater before it melted down. I swapped wires on the motor, swapped tubing on the 3-way valves, wired up and installed on/off switch for the heater controller.

Everything tested good, except the Procon pump wasn't right, although I was able to crank it up to over 200 psi for tests. I sent the pump out today to JC Beverage in MN, as EDCO in CA was quoting two weeks. Either one costs just under $100. I will still have just $200 into the SS Procon. I am also purchasing a rebuilt Series 4 from JC Beverage for $108 as a spare.

After I get my pump back I will test run again with distilled water, over my not hard well water, before trying sap when the time comes.

I will post performance figures after that.

I reoriented the output connectors to match the 3- way valves and flow meters (concentrate left, permeate right), and labeled my heater on off switch... Maybe I will get a switch guard for it like this one. http://www.amazon.com/JT-Products-2652F-Position-Indication/dp/B002UZUEWM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1453864888&sr=8-2&keywords=toggle+switch+guard

12635

[Big_Eddy]

... I wired one of the 120V wires through the control, for the heater element. the other 120V side is hot off the C.B. to the element, and these are all 12 ga. To clarify, I have one 120V wire hot to the element, and the other 120V wire controlled to supply the element with 240V .

Heater Element wired with ground to tank

12465



Not clear to me from above how you have wired the heater element. Contrary to the description above, it looks from the picture like you have one of your power terminals connected to the pot (frame ground) and the other fed with one of the 2 hot legs. Any 220V heater element I've used was wired with 2 hot legs with frame ground provided elsewhere.

Maybe I'm not interpreting your words and pictures correctly, but would hate to see you shock yourself when you power it up.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Not clear to me from above how you have wired the heater element. Contrary to the description above, it looks from the picture like you have one of your power terminals connected to the pot (frame ground) and the other fed with one of the 2 hot legs. Any 220V heater element I've used was wired with 2 hot legs with frame ground provided elsewhere.

Maybe I'm not interpreting your words and pictures correctly, but would hate to see you shock yourself when you power it up.

The Romex is 2/12 with ground. It is the uninsulated ground wire attached to the stud on the pot.

I stated that one leg is hot, and knowing this, avoid a jolt. On a hot water heater, one would never touch one of the studs without turning the C.B off. Mine has one stud on the element always hot. Probably not up to code on a UL listed appliance! These controllers could never receive UL listing I believe.
In my case, one of the legs comes directly to the element and the other goes through the controller internal (relay), The stud I put on the pot is a ground for safety. If the element fails, and the hot leg shorts to the pot, it will pop the C.B., as it has a ground source. If I did not ground the pot, then I could set myself up for trouble, as the C.B. would not pop, and I could become the "path of least resistance".

Here is a better picture, and a diagram of a similar controller. Note the diagram has one wire going through the "load". That is the heater element.

1264712648

[Big_Eddy]

My mistake. The original picture looked like the black wire was going from the element to the ground stud. BTW both studs will be hot at all times. The second feeding through the element from the first and all the way to the terminal 2 on the controller.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

I tapped 330 on vacuum, and got 240 gallons of sap for test. I need to flush, wash, and benchmark. I received my spare Procon today and installed it, and put in quick disconnects on the membrane permeate outlets for easy removal of end caps. They weren't cheap, but I would have hell taking the tubing off the barb fittings if I wanted them clear away. I also installed a guard over the heater switch to remind me I must have fluid in the tank, as I do not have a float switch.
Tomorrow, I will test I hope...

Guarded switch

12751

Quick Disconnect

http://www.mcmaster.com/#5385k12/=10xy0rb

12752

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Finally!

I ran the RO today. Flushed, and washed. I wanted to do a benchmark, but paranoid of using too much well water, even though it has been tested, and is not hard.

I processed my 240 gal of sap in something over an hour I think, as I was under the gun, and didn't write things down the way I planned. The bottom line is that it works! My 1.5 magically turned into 2.8... I operated at various pressures, and was trying to understand why the concentrate flow was so low, and matching the permeate. I looked at the hoses output, and the concentrate was coming out significantly faster than the permeate, but the flow meters were matched! I timed the flow into a 5 gal bucket, and the concentrate flow meter was reading half of what it was putting out. It seemed OK sometimes, but I cannot figure this one out... Any Ideas? I will solve eventually I guess.

I ran the unit slowly up to pressure, and 200psi seemed to a good setting. I was getting permeate flow of 1.8 gpm and 2.8% and when I went up to 230 it only went up to 1.95 gpm permeate and 2.95%, but concentrate flow went way down. I think. I just want to make sure I have a good flow rate on the membranes right now.

I ran my wash cycle and flamed out my heater controller. IT got wet, and short circuited and went into flames. No kidding! I had to blow it out! The 240V wires are too close, and I thought so when I hooked it up. My fault though, as I did not install the shield/cover that would probably have prevented this. I wrapped it in plastic when I put a spare replacement unit in.

All in all, I am pleased with this build. Some things to do yet, but tomorrow I will process 300 gal I have on hand tonight, and whatever I get overnight and tomorrow, and run it through twice and boil it. I set up my head tank so I can feed and recirculate if I wish. I will be playing with all that. I have plenty of storage tanks and hoses to do whatever I wish.

Wash Cycle

12790

Flamed Controller!

1279112792

Water Shield

12793

[mellondome]

When you say the flow meters matched, do you mean the indicators were at the same level visually, or the reading was the same on both? I ask because you are using 2 different scaled flow meters. .5-5 and .2-2

[DoubleBrookMaple]

When you say the flow meters matched, do you mean the indicators were at the same level visually, or the reading was the same on both? I ask because you are using 2 different scaled flow meters. .5-5 and .2-2As in they were indicating about the same flow rate when they should not have. The Concentrate was indicating lower than the actual flow rate.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

What a wonderful thing it is!

Today I removed 325 gallons of water from my sap in 3 hours and 15 minutes clock time (2 1/2 hrs run time). That would have taken me over 10 hours of boiling!
Maybe these numbers are not that great, but I am pleased.
My 1.5% sap took two passes to get it to 4.5. I was babying the RO, keeping my concentrate flow rate up. I mostly ran at 200 psi on my first run of an hour and a half to end with 270 gal 2.7% concentrate and 215 gallons of permeate.
Second run took an hour and eight minutes at 230 psi to get 170 gallons of 4.5% concentrate and about 75 gallons of permeate.
In summary, I removed 325 gallons of permeate in 2 hours and 38 minutes of run time..
Sap was 42 degrees, and I will boil the 170 gal tomorrow at 4.5%. This was just a "get familiar" run, as will boiling the sweet sap. I have never boiled anything over about 2%
I rinsed, washed, rinsed, and put the RO inside. It needs a couple things. I was sucking a little air in my feed pump suction line that I can fix, and I want to put a tap on my wash tank to check PH, as it is not easily accessible except from the back.
BTW.. MY 2500 watt heater with 4-5 gallons of water took 32 minutes to heat from 44 degrees to 102.

So that's it...

I hope this thread will be of help to someone down the road. It has been fun posting, and has made me think.

Eric

Results of my first pass...

12821

Processing my second pass...

12824

[jmayerl]

You really shouldn't let concentrate sit that long. It spoils much faster than raw sap

[DoubleBrookMaple]

You really shouldn't let concentrate sit that long. It spoils much faster than raw sap

I thought this out. There are a lot of variables.

What will the effects be?

How long do I have until it "spoils"?

At what temperature?

Thank you for the advise. Do you really think that 4.5% sap stored for 12-14 hours at 44 degrees will spoil? There are rules of thumb for raw, unconcentrated sap regardless of sugar content. In my early days I kept sap for up to a week at or below 40 degrees and had no problems.
I believe that the RO processing raises the temperature in most commercial RO's. Mine raised the temp 2 degrees.
I definitely will concede that the syrup will possibly be darker. I am not averse to dark syrup, and in fact need more of it for my locals.

Here is a thread on the subject where some have stored it 1-2 days.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?12105-How-long-can-you-store-Consentrate-at-35-40-degrees&highlight=storing+concentrate

I will post my results of my unscientific research after I boil today.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

You really shouldn't let concentrate sit that long. It spoils much faster than raw sap
This answers that. Again.. thank you for the heads up
I boiled the sap today, and got some good amber. I only bottled 4 gallons, as I had an issue with my evaporator level and burned some syrup, but not the pan. I flushed it out, and continued the boil.

[mkoehler79]

DoubleBrook,
Did you have any issues with the threaded ports going into the membrane housing end caps? On my project, the hex portion of the 90 degree fitting I am using is bottoming out to the cap before the fitting is tight. I noticed from your series of pictures during the build that it appears you changed fitting/tubing style on the permeate ports of the membranes. Was the change for this reason? I have not gotten to the point of any pressure testing, but see this as a potential leak/point-of-failure especially on the concentrate in/out ports. If you can give any insight I would appreciate it!

[DoubleBrookMaple]

DoubleBrook,
Did you have any issues with the threaded ports going into the membrane housing end caps?

I almost posted, and should have that the membrane caps are all supposed to be 1/2 NPT, but I found that they were oversize, or a straight thread. Maybe when I got these on ebay for only $99 delivered to my door, the caps were rejects. I don't know. When I put the street elbows in that I had on hand, they never seated proper, and screwed wayyyyyy down. One of them did leak. Eventually I did go with NPT fittings with a shoulder to seat on the cap and along with pipe sealant. They are pressure tested just fine over 250 psi.

You can see here, where I started, and my end configuration. I added quick disconnects for the permeate outlets.

Start

12965

Final

12963

[mkoehler79]

Thanks for the background! I received (from ebay and most likely the same source) the same situation with the end caps. They almost appear as if they were partially bored for 3/4" NPT then changed to 1/2" NPT with how far down in the cap the threads start. I may try to use a short pipe nipple and then F-F coupler to be able to get them tight.

[Clinkis]

I had the same issues with my end caps threads. I just used LOTS of Teflon tape and had no issues.

[Bill@mysticmaple]

Hello, I'm just starting on my maple journey, 35 buckets last year, two home made flat pans on an oil tank arch. This year, 60 taps on 3/16 gravity and SL 5' hybrid pan. I am quite interested in building an RO unit, where do I look for parts? What size(s) of cylinders are best? Any advice is much appreciated!
Thanks, Bill

[MartinP]

Look on Amazon and FreshWaterSystems, you will be able to get just about everything you would need.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Hello, I'm just starting on my maple journey, 35 buckets last year, two home made flat pans on an oil tank arch. This year, 60 taps on 3/16 gravity and SL 5' hybrid pan. I am quite interested in building an RO unit, where do I look for parts? What size(s) of cylinders are best? Any advice is much appreciated!
Thanks, Bill

Bill,

Last summer, I was in your shoes. I didn't have a clue what a reverse osmosis was about (some might say I still don't). Hell, I didn't know what concentrate and permeate were!
Read, Read, Read.... scroll through the Reverse Osmosis and Homemade Equipment threads on the forums. There are some great build threads to read. I bookmarked about a dozen and and if you spend several hours reading you will have somewhat of an idea of what to do. There is no shortcut. Nobody can tell you what to order or what system to build. You may be able to get specific advise, but an RO is not really as simple as some might say. You need to decide, First...how much capacity you want. How many taps will you ever have? That will determine your size. Now.. how much you want to spend, what to build it on, what size, and how many membranes, in series or parallel, electric or gas powered, 120V or 240V, what HP motor, what size HP pump, what feed pump if any, which flowmeters, wash tank with heater? what plumbing for high pressure side, and low pressure side, do I want a low pressure, and/or high pressure cutoff?.... and a hundred other decisions. Again, everything you need has been posted over the last 3-4 years. These questions can mostly be answered in the build threads. Go get it! (I mean that in a good way)
Get an idea of what you want for a basic system and draw it out, and then post it, and ask for suggestions, but remember we all have opinions......
I hope I have not come off negative, just trying to help you lay the groundwork.

Not sure how much this helps you, but
I purchased my parts from (not necessarily in this order)
Amazon
Ebay
FreshWaterSystems
ForeverPure
Zoro
Omega
McMaster-Carr
HD
Summit Racing
Carr's Hardware
Job Lot
F W Webb

Good Luck, and have fun.

Eric

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Double, can you tell me about this?
12975

[bowhunter]

If you know how many taps you want to service and the boiling capacity of your evaporator I can probably size a couple of options for you. I prefer to run the RO while I'm in attendance so I try to make the system as simple as possible. I also prefer not to store the concentrate, but I'm retired so I can run it off as soon as I make it. If you prefer to run the RO at night or during the day when you're not around then one of the smaller home systems using a diaphragm pump might be a better option. If you want my help send me a private message to make sure I get the information. I usually don't look at many of the posts every day.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Double, can you tell me about this?
12975

TDS probes (Total Disolved Solids)
One main purpose is to tell me if my membranes are passing sugar (not good). They do not measure sugar to my understanding, but are an indicator that there is sugar present in the permeate. They also are good during operation to tell me when I have flushed all the sugar through my RO, as I have a probe on the concentrate and permeate outlets from the flow meters. Even during a rinse the concentrate side goes down significantly when flushed, but takes a very long time to go down to "0".
During my first pass my 2.7 % concentrate TDS was indicating 125-160, and on my second it was indicating 230-240, so one might say it does tell me my sap is of higher sugar concentration despite the fact that it does not actually measure sugar.
This is my TDS you see on the front panel.
https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-250-hm-digital-dm-1-dual-tds-meter.aspx?utm_source=Googlebase&utm_medium=Feed&utm_campaign=Product&utm_term=DM-1-2525&gdftrk=gdfV213098_a_7c3846_a_7c14580_a_7c250_1194_ 3223&gclid=CjwKEAiA__C1BRDqyJOQ8_Tq230SJABWBSxnmLjxGtwH ckFyco0OmNZ1zNm9ZiZs_ytjYMX9EzKBkxoCNW_w_wcB

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Today I ran the R/O with some 2.1% I got yesterday.
I added a poor man's recirculation valve and flowmeter. I eventually opened the valve all the way to get 3 gpm recirc back into the feed pump inlet. Good results. With 35 degree sap, 200psi I was going from 2.1% to 6.3% Here is some pics...

Press / Concentrate flow / Permeate flow

13114

Recirculation valve (red) and flowmeter

13115

[jimsudz]

Hello DBM looks like adding recirc has made you sugar % go up nicely. Can you tell how you add recirc. Pics would be great. What high pressure pump are you using . On my home build my concentrate flowmeter is 4gpm and permeate is around 1.8 gpm. when I try to equalize the flow pressure will go to 295-300 psi. I cant get the concentrate flow any lower. Last time I ran it I was taking 1.7% To 2.7%Not as good as I would have liked. I like taking 100g + of water out /hr.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Hello DBM looks like adding recirc has made you sugar % go up nicely. Can you tell how you add recirc. Pics would be great. What high pressure pump are you using . On my home build my concentrate flowmeter is 4gpm and permeate is around 1.8 gpm. when I try to equalize the flow pressure will go to 295-300 psi. I cant get the concentrate flow any lower. Last time I ran it I was taking 1.7% To 2.7%Not as good as I would have liked. I like taking 100g + of water out /hr.
Yes, it doubled sugar before the recirculation line, and now it triples it. It is a line from the concentrate outlet that sends a large amount of the concentrate back to the inlet to the feed pump. I had a spare flowmeter on hand, so I threw it in the mix. Without a concentrate outlet flowmeter I do not know how much, but will guess 70-80%. I could reach higher with more pressure, but want to keep my flow rate higher across the membranes. I am using a 3/4 HP motor to drive a Procon Series 5 265gph that I had set at 250psi relief. I actually have two... I like spares! I bought a second rebuilt Series 4 for just over a hundred $ at JC Beverage in MN..

Here is the tee at the concentrate outlet on the back of my panel that I have a camlock connector. This is the source of the recirc concentrate the feed pump sucks through the flowmeter in the top right corner of the next picture. This tee I added to the original outlet that goes to the concentrate tank.

13116

This is the recirc flowmeter (top right) that the line connects to the bottom of, and out the top, through the red valve, and thereafter to the tee in the feed pump inlet suction line.

13117

[Urban Sugarmaker]

DoubleBrookMaple, are you using a second high pressure pump dedicated to recirc? My recirculation circuit tees off of the concentrate output from the membrane and returns to the feed line that feeds the HP pump. I have a needle valve to control it, but I find that pressures just drop way down if I open it up. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't get it to do much better than 50/50 flows without really cranking up the pressure. I don't want to foul the membrane, so maybe I'm just being timid with it.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

DoubleBrookMaple, are you using a second high pressure pump dedicated to recirc? My recirculation circuit tees off of the concentrate output from the membrane and returns to the feed line that feeds the HP pump. I have a needle valve to control it, but I find that pressures just drop way down if I open it up. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't get it to do much better than 50/50 flows without really cranking up the pressure. I don't want to foul the membrane, so maybe I'm just being timid with it.
No recirc pump on mine.
If your description is correct, your pressure drop is because you are robbing the high pressure concentrate. Tee in on all the low pressure lines Before the feed pump (suction to draw the concentrate), and after the concentrate needle valve. I presume you have a feed pump. I do not think it will work unless you have the suction to draw the concentrate from the output line.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Ok, so I can plug that tee where I draw concentrate now and tee into the sap feed Prior to the low pressure feed pump, and that should work? Sounds easy enough.

[mkoehler79]

Urban,
Do you have two needle valves on your system, one for recirc and one for concentrate? If so, with the way you currently have it plumbed, it should work just fine. What you will need to do is as you open up the recirc needle valve you will need to close the concentrate needle valve to maintain a pressure level. The combined flow of what is passing the two needle valves is what is setting your pressure by the restriction the needle valves provide.

If you have a dedicated recirc needle valve, the output of this valve is at low pressure going to your pump input similar to the output of the concentrate needle valve at low pressure going to your concentrate tank. You will not have to worry about fouling your membranes as a procon pump (if this is what you used) is a positive displacement pump meaning pressure does not have (a large) effect on flow. Whether sap concentrate is going out the concentrate needle valve or out the recirc needle valve the back to the pump, the flow coming out of the procon is always the same. What changes is the amount being drawn from your raw sap tank by the pump inlet as the recirc displaces some of the raw sap intake. This is essentially how you are achieving higher concentration levels. Hope this helps as this is similar to the way my homemade is plumbed and operates.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Urban,
Do you have two needle valves on your system, one for recirc and one for concentrate? If so, with the way you currently have it plumbed, it should work just fine. What you will need to do is as you open up the recirc needle valve you will need to close the concentrate needle valve to maintain a pressure level. The combined flow of what is passing the two needle valves is what is setting your pressure by the restriction the needle valves provide.

If you have a dedicated recirc needle valve, the output of this valve is at low pressure going to your pump input similar to the output of the concentrate needle valve at low pressure going to your concentrate tank. You will not have to worry about fouling your membranes as a procon pump (if this is what you used) is a positive displacement pump meaning pressure does not have (a large) effect on flow. Whether sap concentrate is going out the concentrate needle valve or out the recirc needle valve the back to the pump, the flow coming out of the procon is always the same. What changes is the amount being drawn from your raw sap tank by the pump inlet as the recirc displaces some of the raw sap intake. This is essentially how you are achieving higher concentration levels. Hope this helps as this is similar to the way my homemade is plumbed and operates.

Agreed..
It should work, and in fact, with the high pressure concentrate, it should push a lot back to the Procon pump inlet. I do as little plumbing on the high side as possible for obvious reasons. But...
If you do recirculate before the Concentrate flowmeter, how do you know what the flow rate is across the membranes? Add the recirculation flow rate, and the concentrate flow rate? I think.
Mine is displayed by my concentrate flowmeter. What I see is what I am getting across the membranes. What I am getting is about 3:1... Less than ideal I know, but time will tell how long I can go before the membranes show signs of fouling. I don't run long, and lots of rinsing and washing is the plan.

[mkoehler79]

Flow rate into the membranes is your procon gpm and is for the most part a constant due to the minimal flow/pressure curve of the procon pump. Flow rate coming out of the membrane(s) is going to be procon pump gpm flow rate minus permeate gpm flow rate. If you have more than one membrane in series, this calculation would give the flow out of the last membrane in the series. In parallel, it would require individual flow meters for membranes to be absolutely certain of the flow across each or you can assume the flow is equally divided amongst the membranes and figure it that way.

The thing changing with recirc is the concentration level of the concentrate entering the membrane but not flow rate through the membrane.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Urban,
Do you have two needle valves on your system, one for recirc and one for concentrate?

Yes I have 2 needle valves, one for the recirculation line and one in the concentrate flow meter. As the concentrate flows out of the membrane there's a tee. Flow goes to the concentrate flow meter, then the concentrate tank. When I open the recirc needle valve, that flow is now splitting between going to the flow meter and back to the inlet side of the procon HP pump (Procon series 5 115-330 GPH stainless steel, no pressure relief) DoubleBrook is correct. I do not actually know my total concentrate flow when my recirc needle valve is opened. It was a last minute add-on to the project.

Do I need another flowmeter or should I re-plumb so that all concentrate goes through the flow meter first, then split to the tank and procon inlet for recirc?

[mkoehler79]

I don't see any reason for another flowmeter. IMO, the concentrate flow out of the membrane is easily enough calculated.

In my case, I set the concentrate flow out to match the evaporator rate (plus a small safety factor) and let the rest of the flow above what our evaporator does recirculate back to the pump. What that flow level is??? I can calculate or not care as long as concentrate flow to evap and pressure are within the preferred range.

I am not sure how you run your RO in your operation, but if you are not trying to match flows up to a piece of equipment I would guess achieving the highest permeate flow rate would be the biggest concern. RO operation is a balance of permeate performance vs. concentration level vs. sap processed. One or more of these variables is affected by what your preferred RO output performance indicator is.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Lastly... (Yea, right!)
I have been moving the RO in and out of my ground level basement out and up an incline on a gravel walkway to my small sugerhouse with an 800lb rated hand truck, knowing all along when I started, that I would need wheels. I had a couple around that I bought at TSC on clearance some time ago, thinking they would come in handy. Boy did they. I bought the casters today at TSC for a lot more at $40 for the pair, but good ones.
So, I get done and put this monster on my scale. It is nearly 300 lbs!!! (287.5)
It is 100 lbs on the casters end , and I need a handle to pick it upright. Boy, it sure rolls nicely now! Easy to push...
I would surely have hurt me and/or the RO eventually with the hand truck.

1313413135

[bowhunter]

mkoehler79 is spot on. No need for a flow meter in the recirculation line as it is easily calculated with the other two flow meters. I run my RO exactly the same balancing the RO concentrate flow to the evaporator boil rate.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

mkoehler79 is spot on. No need for a flow meter in the recirculation line as it is easily calculated with the other two flow meters. I run my RO exactly the same balancing the RO concentrate flow to the evaporator boil rate.As it turns out, I will remove my recirc line flow meter. Yesterday I was sucking a lot of air through the system. The flow meter was leaking. I shut off the recirc valve for the remainder of the run. I am sure they are not designed to use in a suction line. I could try to fix it, but it is just one more thing to monitor, and for what?

Otherwise things went well... Performance was like this.

I started with one tank with 200 gal at 1.7%, and a 250 gal at 1.5% from two different days, for a total of 450 gal, all at 38 degrees.
I ran the 200 off in one hour, and the 250 off in 1.3 hours. That comes out to about 200 gph to go from 1.5 to 3.5%. The numbers are a little off because I was recirculating in the RO a little while early on before I shut the valve. I believe I came out with about 210 gal of 3.5%. I ran it through a second time, and it took a little over an hour to get up to 5.5%. I then pumped into my head tank, and recirculated from the head tank, through the RO, back to the top of the holding tank, back to the head tank while firing up the evaporator, and recirculated like that until my holding tank was near 8% and shut down. I am still working on how I operate, and this is the first time I concentrated while firing. The multitasking while firing is not idiot proof, and sometimes I can be an idiot. I burned some syrup early this year, so I ran my pan deep yesterday to prevent being that idiot. Now I think I will always run deep since I don't have to evaporate long anyway.
I think I boiled for a little over 3 hours in what would have been more like 15 hours without concentrating. I cannot say I am displeased..
Here are my running numbers....

13249

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Major change in my RO, and not done...
I had a spare Procon, so I decided to go with redundancy, and I now have two Procons w/ 3/4 HP Marathons wired in parallel, with each having an isolation switch, and a check valve so I can run two, or one in case of a failure. I call it my "Double Barrel RO". I am now getting great flow rates of course, and today was my second run with the dual pumps.
I processed about 330 gallons of 1.9% to 80 gal of 8.5% in three hours, and started boiling. I eventually processed all 600 gallons I had, and took it up to 10% while boiling, recirculating into holding tank and head tank at will. I spent 5 hours boiling what would have taken me over 20 hours in the old days. Bottled 11 gallons of Golden, my second run of Golden.
I have now processed 2370 gallons of sap with this RO.

Double Barrel RO

13464

[mkoehler79]

Good thinking on the added pump. That increased flow rate across the membranes should help reduce fouling as well. Glad to see your RO is performing well. It is great to have some extra time to do other things!

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Good thinking on the added pump. That increased flow rate across the membranes should help reduce fouling as well. Glad to see your RO is performing well. It is great to have some extra time to do other things!

My original intent, and plan was for a single membrane. I have a habit of changing horses in mid stream, and I threw in another membrane after I already had the pump and motor. I knew the flow issue would have a negative impact some day, and thought I would push that to the field test. Since I got the spare Procon, I decided to upgrade the system with the purchase of another motor, two check valves, and the switches. Just $160 total for the motor, check valves and switches. I know I can continue to run if I ever have a motor or pump failure.

[Francis]

Hello guys
Looking to build a ro with a 330 gph procon pump on a 1 hp motor, with a 1/2 hp shallow well feed pump and one 4x40 xle filmtec membrane. I am presently tapping 500 and would want to expand. Do you have any ideas what would be the production of such a setup?
Thank you
Francis

[bowhunter]

It depends on how much water you want to remove. A single membrane will allow you to run about 75 gph and remove between 70 and 75% of the water. So that means 2% in and about 8% out. This should be enough to handle 500 taps. If you plan to go much above 500 taps on gravity, you probably need a larger pump and additional membrane. But again it all depends on what you want to do. If you are satisfied to go from 2% to 4% or remove 50% of the water, your set up will probably handle 100 gallons per hour of sap.

[Francis]

I'm confortable with removing 50 % of the water. I will put the concentrate back in the sap drum and re-process it in order to obtain 8 %. The pump is a 330 gph, so from what i can understand is the membrane will only process 75 gph. Therefore, if i add a membrane in the future, i should be able to process 150 gph? My pump would be used at only 50%.
Is my thinking good?
Thank you

[Urban Sugarmaker]

It depends on how much water you want to remove. A single membrane will allow you to run about 75 gph and remove between 70 and 75% of the water.

Can you get this kind of performance with a single XLE 4040? I couldn't do better than about 50% removal in a single pass. If I didn't open the bypass valve that recirculates back to the procon feed, I'd have to almost close the flow meter needle valve to get the flow below 5 gallons per minute. Any suggestions, or are we single XLE guys stuck with 2 passes? I have read and been told this is a limitation with 4" membranes.

[cedar syrups]

hi I,m new to ro systems and I,m looking to buy a small unit for 500 taps or to build one . I would like to now more about your unit and the components for it ( what do I need and what to expect) thanks

[lastwoodsman]

I was taking 2% to 6.5 on one pass all season.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

Can you get this kind of performance with a single XLE 4040? I couldn't do better than about 50% removal in a single pass. If I didn't open the bypass valve that recirculates back to the procon feed, I'd have to almost close the flow meter needle valve to get the flow below 5 gallons per minute. Any suggestions, or are we single XLE guys stuck with 2 passes? I have read and been told this is a limitation with 4" membranes.

i had the same results,so i added a 2nd membrane

[Urban Sugarmaker]

i had the same results,so i added a 2nd membrane

When I spoke to Clayton at MES he suggested NOT replacing my XLE with their 4x40. Their membranes have wider feed spaces and therefore take longer to foul. That's the big difference in addition to their fiberglass casing which is a great feature. He thought my best bet would be to run 2 in parallel to double my water removal. Although that won't increase the first pass brix level. Maybe I could plumb it to be selectable between series and parallel.

[mellondome]

What is your end goal? Fastest water removal possible or output of a specific sugar level?

[cedar syrups]

HI I have about the same size set up and I,m looking to get into making or buying a RO system I would like to know more about yours and what you have thanks

[bowhunter]

A single XLE 4040 with a 330 GPH ProCon pump is capable of removing 80% of the water on one pass using internal circulation. If you want to do more than that you will need another membrane in series or a much larger pump if you use the membranes in parallel. You should have about 9.5% sugar concentrate at these conditions and 2% sap. There are a lot of variables including sap sugar content, sap temperature and membrane cleanliness that can affect performance.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

A single XLE 4040 with a 330 GPH ProCon pump is capable of removing 80% of the water on one pass using internal circulation. If you want to do more than that you will need another membrane in series or a much larger pump if you use the membranes in parallel. You should have about 9.5% sugar concentrate at these conditions and 2% sap. There are a lot of variables including sap sugar content, sap temperature and membrane cleanliness that can affect performance.

By internal circulation can I assume you mean the use of a recirculation pump? Currently, me setup has a needle valve that allows a portion of the concentrate flow to go back to the procon inlet and mix with incoming raw sap. I would love to be getting 8% out in a single pass with this membrane. Usually, my sap is at 2.0-2.2%. That would save me the time of having to run sap through a second time. So I would have to say this is my goal.

My concern is that I have been told that more than 50% water removal in a single pass is not recommended with 4 inch membranes. However, I don't know if that recommendation is only based on NO recirculation. Recirculation under pressure, from what I understand, increases flow and turbulence across the membrane and delays fouling.

[bowhunter]

Ok...good you have recirculation and you don't need another recirculation pump, although many of the big commercial RO units have a separate recirculation pump. You can definitely go above 50% on a 4 inch membrane as long has you have high recirculation. The design recommendation is no more than 15% per pass without recirculation. With high recirculation you are still targeting only 15% removal on each cycle through the membrane. I know this is a little confusing so I'll try to take your system with the numbers to explain. For example a 4 inch XLE membrane feeding 50 gph of fresh sap at 2.2% sugar with a target of 75% water removal will have the following flows:

Sap in - 50 gph and 2.2% sugar
Concentrate decirculation - 195.6 gallons per hour 8.3% sugar
Total membrane feed - Equals sap in plus recirculation, 245.4 gallons per hour 7% sugar
Total concentrate flow out - 208.8 gallons per hour 8.3% sugar (equals the total membrane feed minus the permeate)
Permeate out - 36.8 gallons per hour
Net concentrate - 13.2 gallons per hour 8.3% (evaporator feed)

As you can see the permeate out flow is 15% of the total membrane feed. This 15% is called the recovery and is the number that generally you try not to exceed. These are just guidelines and are not absolute, but are recommended by most membrane manufacturers to assure reliable performance. Don't hesitate to ask for further clarification. I'm not always the best at explaining this clearly.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Ok...good you have recirculation and you don't need another recirculation pump, although many of the big commercial RO units have a separate recirculation pump. You can definitely go above 50% on a 4 inch membrane as long has you have high recirculation. The design recommendation is no more than 15% per pass without recirculation. With high recirculation you are still targeting only 15% removal on each cycle through the membrane. I know this is a little confusing so I'll try to take your system with the numbers to explain. For example a 4 inch XLE membrane feeding 50 gph of fresh sap at 2.2% sugar with a target of 75% water removal will have the following flows:

Sap in - 50 gph and 2.2% sugar
Concentrate decirculation - 195.6 gallons per hour 8.3% sugar
Total membrane feed - Equals sap in plus recirculation, 245.4 gallons per hour 7% sugar
Total concentrate flow out - 208.8 gallons per hour 8.3% sugar (equals the total membrane feed minus the permeate)
Permeate out - 36.8 gallons per hour
Net concentrate - 13.2 gallons per hour 8.3% (evaporator feed)

As you can see the permeate out flow is 15% of the total membrane feed. This 15% is called the recovery and is the number that generally you try not to exceed. These are just guidelines and are not absolute, but are recommended by most membrane manufacturers to assure reliable performance. Don't hesitate to ask for further clarification. I'm not always the best at explaining this clearly.

Thanks Bowhunter. A couple thoughts...First, my Procon is the Series 5 330 GPH model. I found that at 50/50 flows and sap at about 50 degrees F, I would show around 1.2-1.3 GPM each for concentrate and permeate. Now, this does not account for the flow that was bypassing the concentrate meter and returning to the feed.

I tried to run with the recirc valve CLOSED and I could barely get the flow on the concentrate side below 5 GPM with nearly closing the valve on the flow meter. Based on what you are saying I think I need to figure out how to control the flows with the valves to achieve what you are saying. But, you say 50 Gal per HOUR feed. I think I'm feeding a lot more than that (1.2 gpm conc. + 1.2 gpm perm. = 144 gallons per hour coming out of the machine.) So, I guess I am a little confused on what to do get the valves adjusted right. My thought is that I should really crank down on the concentrate flow meter needle valve to slow it down. To do this I think I should add a SS needle valve to make adjustments and leave the cheap in-meter valve wide open.

[bowhunter]

The pump is a constant flow machine. You use the needle valves to adjust the flows and the recirculation valve must be open all the time. Use the recirculation valve to control the pressure i.e. close down on the valve to increase the pressure, open up the valve to lower the pressure. You use the system pressure to control the amount of permeate flow. Adjust the concentrate needle valve to control the concentrate flow. On start up have the recirculation valve and concentrate valves about halfway open and start your pump. For 50 gallons per hour and a 75% water removal adjust the concentrate needle valve to get 0.22 gallons per minute of concentrate flow. Adjust the pressure using the recirculation valve to get a permeate flow of 0.61 gallons per minute. I know you can't read the flow meters that accurately so just shoot for 0.2 gpm of concentrate and 0.6 gpm of permeate. You will probably have to adjust the concentrate and recirculation needle valves a couple of times to get the flows lined out at 0.2 and 0.6. You should be able to achieve these conditions at less than 225 psi. This should give you 8% or more sugar content. I don't know what kind of adjustable concentrate flow meter you have, but make sure it's rate for 250 psi..maybe you've already been up that high without a failure. I know Blue White makes a flow meter rated for 250psi which should work in this service. I believe it's about $130, but it may be worth the expense.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I don't know what kind of adjustable concentrate flow meter you have, but make sure it's rate for 250 psi..maybe you've already been up that high without a failure. I know Blue White makes a flow meter rated for 250psi which should work in this service. I believe it's about $130, but it may be worth the expense.

I have an adjustable flow meter from Fresh Water Systems https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5285-hydronix-adjustable-panel-mount-flowmeter.aspx (click here). It's only rated for 120 PSI, so I guess I should get a different one or just get another SS needle valve and leave the meter valve wide open. I did notice it was leaking a little from the adjustment knob at one point.

Thanks for such a detailed explanation. I think it's starting to make sense and I can't wait to try it out next season.

[bowhunter]

You can do either. Replace the adjustable meter with one rated for the correct pressure or keep it wide open and get another needle valve. Good luck with next season. If you have other questions I'd be happy to try to describe what I think will happen. I have a spreadsheet model I use to predict performance. It seems to work pretty well with my machine and I'm happy to run different cases for folks on the forum who are trying to come up with a system that's optimum for them. I can account for temperature, pressure, osmotic pressure, sugar concentration and size and type of membrane, but as in most things there is no "one right answer" with an RO system.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I would love to have a copy of your spreadsheet if you are sharing. Feel free to PM me for my email address. Thanks.

[Paperman]

A bump up to see how this rig is handling 2017......

[Luisc]

Can you tell me where you sourced the LP and HP switches? Nice setup.

[Paperman]

Can you tell me where you sourced the LP and HP switches? Nice setup.

LP looks like a spa switch. Tecmark 4010P 4000 Series Pressure Switch

[Luisc]

LP looks like a spa switch. Tecmark 4010P 4000 Series Pressure Switch

Thanks. Will look into it.

[Bricklayer]

If it's the original posters RO you are asking about these are the pressure switches used

LP is PSW-582
HP is PSW-584

http://www.omega.com/pptst/PSW-581.html

[DoubleBrookMaple]

LAST POST .....

I sold the RO in northern Vermont, and I just resceived an email with positive review.

I will no longer post. I am in hospice care and do not wish to continue communication.. ENJOY YOUR SUGARING!
Regards...

Eric

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?shva=1#inbox/15b3ed0cefa24df5