2016 Bulk Pricing

[GeneralStark]

Well the new year is almost upon us and it seems like an appropriate time to begin to discuss bulk pricing in 2016. Will the bulk price continue to drop with the Canadian dollar? Will U.S. expansion become a factor in affecting bulk price? Quebec has set the 2016 pricing but where do you think the prices will fall for U.S. producers in 2016?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i could care less what the canadian dollar is ehhh, my prices are at 45/28/18/11/7.50 and im still selling hardly keep up canning syrup! I know Randy and Thad are almost out also, rather sell retail than bulk price.

[jamiesonmaple]

If you don't mind me asking, how do do sell your syrup? I was just going to sell mine at my house in the suburb. Hoping it will do good. I would rather sell retail too because not many people know what real syrup is or how its made. So I get to teach them :)

[DrTimPerkins]

Well the new year is almost upon us and it seems like an appropriate time to begin to discuss bulk pricing in 2016. Will the bulk price continue to drop with the Canadian dollar? Will U.S. expansion become a factor in affecting bulk price? Quebec has set the 2016 pricing but where do you think the prices will fall for U.S. producers in 2016?

This is about the time I pull out the old magic 8 ball and give it a shake, however it is pretty clear that if the Canadian $ drops further, so will the U.S. value of bulk syrup since they are fairly well tied together.

Another question....will Quebec expansion have any effect on US expansion?

So what are the 2016 bulk prices? I haven't seen them yet.

[GeneralStark]

I saw an article or a reference somewhere, I thought it was here but can't find it at the moment, that the Federation bulk pricing was expected to stay the same in 2016. I'll keep looking.

[unc23win]

I saw an article or a reference somewhere, I thought it was here but can't find it at the moment, that the Federation bulk pricing was expected to stay the same in 2016. I'll keep looking.

Seems like someone said last year that the price was set for more than one year pretty sure it was on here. It wasn't in the almanac was it?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Federation set prices last spring for 2015 and 2016 as I posted it few weeks ago. It was $ 2.91 lb Canadian dollar.

[unc23win]

Federation set prices last spring for 2015 and 2016 as I posted it few weeks ago. It was $ 2.91 lb Canadian dollar.

Thanks I was thinking you had posted it😃

[J. hutchins]

Right now with the American dollar at $.72 to $1.00 Canadian dollar it looks like the bulk price will be around $2.10 lb.

[Brian Ryther]

$2.10 is what Bascom paid last week.

[GeneralStark]

For table grades?

[markcasper]

A large packer in Wis indicated to me that prices would probably drop some more here before stabilizing. This was right around new years. Commercial was 1.60, if it gets down much lower than that in price, it won't be made on my farm.

[Brian Ryther]

yes, for table grades

For table grades?

[WMF]

$2.10 is what Bascom paid last week.

Welcome back to the good old days. $2 gallon gas and $2# table syrup. The unrest in the federation will likely lead to lower bulk prices in the near future. When fuel doubles after the next worldwide crisis there will be a thinning of the maple producer herd.

[eagle lake sugar]

The exchange rate is affecting everything. we live near the border and sell syrup, cream and taffy to a local grocery store. The Canadians are subsidized and can sell products much cheaper and still profit. We have to match their wholesale prices in order to keep the account, but it hurts!

[Helicopter Seeds]

i could care less what the canadian dollar is ehhh, my prices are at 45/28/18/11/7.50 and im still selling hardly keep up canning syrup! I know Randy and Thad are almost out also, rather sell retail than bulk price.

Assume that is gallon/ half/ qt/ pint/ 8 oz ?

I only sold a few 12 oz jars last year. some at $12 and some at $15. of course the bottle and labels cost over a buck each too. So the $2.10 per lb, works out to about $23 per gallon. That really is a big discount. Can't see doing that until you have an efficient operation.

[Clinkis]

The exchange rate is affecting everything. we live near the border and sell syrup, cream and taffy to a local grocery store. The Canadians are subsidized and can sell products much cheaper and still profit. We have to match their wholesale prices in order to keep the account, but it hurts!

After asking some questions I have to amend my post.....

Ontario Maple producers are not subsidized.

We definitely benefit from lower exporting costs but the low Canadian dollar affects us too as most equipment and supplies are based on US prices. Ordered a new auto draw off from Smokey Lake that was $495 U.S.. Cost me $720 CAN.

[ennismaple]

Maple syrup is the only commodity that I can think of that is priced in Canadian dollars. A weaker $Cdn means it is cheaper for the Federation to export to the States - which lowers what American bulk buyers will pay for syrup. While our bulk prices (buy/sell) have not changed much with our declining dollar it has gotten more expensive to buy containers, labels or any other equipment from the States. Our cost to buy Leader CV's has gone up 40% over the past 2 years.

[maplwrks]

Had the Canadian dollar remained stronger, bulk prices probably would not have changed much in the last 3 years.

[Maple Man 85]

Is there a site where the Canadian Federation posts the bulk price per gallon? Based on what I've read so far we are all best guessing.

Maple Man 85

[blissville maples]

ennis- I agree its a weird little monopoly and like u said cost is going thru the roof and prices down- I think its their way to keep market smaller to keep price up but seems opposite is happening. I don't understand how the federation can be so persuasive. why cant Bruce Bascom pay his own per lb price and sell at his own price per lb, whats it agains the law-probably. once again more governmental type control. makes me want to find my own way to export and sell, there how u like me now. that's ok let them do what they gotta do, folks like me will be smarter, that's what many of these fools these days don't realize (like the vt government) keep messing with people u only make them smarter and find ways to get thru that crack that's always left open somewhere.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Bruce and other US buyers can buy and sell syrup for whatever price they want. There is no govt control whatsoever. But if bulk buyers can get all the syrup they need from the federation at a price of about $2.10 USD why would they be willing to pay much higher than that to other producers. When they sell their finished product, they will be competing with Federation syrup. Their price to their consumers will have to be competitive with what the Federation is charging or their customers will go to the cheaper source.

[CBOYER]

No guess on prices :

http://fpaq.ca/producteurs/informations-pratiques/prix/

[Maple Man 85]

Thank you for the site CBOYER now all I have to do is stay on top of is the exchange rate!!!

Maple Man 85

[leaky bucket]

The exchange rate is affecting everything. we live near the border and sell syrup, cream and taffy to a local grocery store. The Canadians are subsidized and can sell products much cheaper and still profit. We have to match their wholesale prices in order to keep the account, but it hurts!
We are not subsidized one penny ! Not in Ontario ! Don't know where you got that from but it is BS. We can sell our product to whoever and for whatever we can get! We don't get kickback (subsidy) from no one. Just regulations that's what we get . there is no marketing board or price setting here.
Quebec a different story. don't confuse them with the rest of Canada!!

Mike

[CBOYER]

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/about/growingforward/gf2-farmbus.htm#2G


GF2 Cost-share Funding Assistance Program

GF2 cost-share funding assistance is available to established and new Ontario farm businesses that produce agricultural commodities in Ontario and file business or farm income/loss taxes in Ontario. The maximum cost-share funding that a single producer business can receive over the five-year timeframe is $350,000. All projects will be assessed on merit. Only the most impactful projects will receive cost-share. Cost-share funding will be capped depending on the project category. Some project categories have prerequisites as a required condition before you apply. Approval of your project is needed before costs can be incurred and paid.

[leaky bucket]

That program may be OK if you are a major producer 25k + taps and don't mind the govt all over you. The paper work and process a nightmare!
What I was saying\ meant was that as small producers (trying to stay under the radar). We are registered with Ompsa , but don't receive any special treatment or funding. I can sell my syrup to anyone anywhere for whatever they are willing to pay. I am subject to govt insp and tested if selected but not worried about that. Here in ontario we have very strict guidelines, in fact by 2018 is the deadline for every thing to be be food safe grade ! That means buckets, tanks,pumps,hoses, tables in the bottle area EVERTHING. No grants for that. We have to keep daily records of cleaning process and operational routine.. Back to original post reply, I don't receive any subs.as most other small producers as we are not. A full time \ reg farm business.

Mike
At the end of the day we all like love what we do and just want to make a good safe food product

[southfork]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/opec-of-maple-syrup-under-fire-as-farmers-turn-to-black-market/ar-BBq1V7T

[ennismaple]

We spent a lot of time applying to GF2 for some proposed improvements and we got denied. What wasn't mentioned is GF2 is available for any farm or food based company. Schneiders, Heinz, Parmalat or other big food producers or processers are the ones that will be applying for the maximum funding (I think it's 1/3 or 1/4 of the project cost) and will hire companies to prepare their applications, produce a HACCP plan, etc... Small guys like us are left doing a Google Search to even try to understand what the heck they are asking for on the application!

[CBOYER]

I really understand your complaints. But likes in other provinces or states, thoses big numbers go in front pages of newspapers, and everyones thinks that the industrie is receiving full of cash from Gov. Reality is very different.

[sapman]

I understand how the exchange rate affects the price of syrup. But packers who are packaging in state labeled containers can not just buy federation syrup, assuming everything is above the board. But they sure benefit greatly from the lower price, based on federation pricing/exchange rate.

It almost seems like there would be two bulk pricing models. But perhaps "state-labeled" syrup is a VERY small portion of the market overall, and wouldn't really demand a higher price?

[Big_Eddy]

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/about/growingforward/gf2-farmbus.htm#2G

GF2 Cost-share Funding Assistance Program


Production improvement programs and grants come and go in various markets. New one just announced in Vermont.
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?27922-Vermont-Rebates-for-First-Time-RO-Buyers

As far as I'm concerned - all these programs are good if they get money to actual producers for real improvements to productivity or the quality of syrup being produced. Initiatives that drive more demand for syrup in the market, or that can be publicized as beneficial to the environment are good for all of us as producers.

I'd much rather our Governments give money to producers to make it easier to produce quality syrup, than they spend it on regulations and inspections that make it more difficult to sell quality syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

But packers who are packaging in state labeled containers can not just buy federation syrup, assuming everything is above the board.

At least in Vermont, packers must be registered with the State Agency of Agriculture, and they report on quantities of syrup from Vermont, other U.S. states, and Canada and sales of syrup as such. They cannot pack into mislabeled containers....so syrup from Canada, or NY, or wherever cannot be packed into VT labeled containers.

[DrTimPerkins]

Production improvement programs and grants come and go in various markets. New one just announced in Vermont.
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?27922-Vermont-Rebates-for-First-Time-RO-Buyers

I don't think I would classify that particular program as a "Production improvement" grant. It is an energy efficiency grant, similar to programs offered to many different types of industries. At least in the time I've been in maple, I can't recall any grant program in Vermont aimed at helping maple producers improve their production (which I think of as increasing the number of taps or increasing yields from existing taps). The one program aimed at expansion is the Maple Tap Act, which was authorized in the Farm Bill, but never funded.

However much of the focus of maple research in the U.S. at both UVM PMRC and Cornell has been aimed at research and education for producers to improve yields, which is a subsidy of sorts I suppose, since the majority of the cost of that research is borne by government grants, and not by producers. All depends on how you look at it.

[Parker]

Dr. Tim,,,,,,,,when someone gets free stuff that makes it possible to double, triple production,,,,,one example i can think of was going from a 4x14 grim to a 4x14 intensofire with steamaway,,,,,EVERYONE,,,adds more taps thus increasing production,,,,,,,you can say the program is to do whatever you want,,,but the end result is that the recipeant of the free stuff almost always doubles or triples production,,,,,,,,,,cause now they can go from processing 140 gallons an hour to processing 600 gal an hour..........not that there is anything wrong with that,,,,,,,,,

[Parker]

And rememder when your applying for the grant they dont ask you how many taps you have now,,,they ask you how many potential taps you have,,,,,to best macth your new free stuff with how many taps you will have,,,,,well with the old grim you could only keep up with 2000 taps but by golley if we had that intensofryer with a screamaway we could keep up with 6000 taps,,,,,,,,,what was that quote? "Ask not what your country can do for you,,,ask what you can do for your country" whats the national debt? To each there own......

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim,,,,,,,,when someone gets free stuff that makes it possible to double, triple production,,

You better check that form. They ask for taps and syrup made in 2015, not how many you might want in your wildest dreams. Goal rebate is $1-3k, so you're not getting a ton of new "free stuff" to "double, triple production."

[Parker]

Come on,,,i talked to the lady,,,i know what she asked,,,,my bud that got the 4x14 and steamaways cost including energy audit was $8000,,,whats the total cost for that rig,,,,,,no disrespect,,,,but it seem like an awful lot of free stuff,,,,,,but thats cool,,,if thats how you roll

[blissville maples]

the bottom line is taxes are out of control and government spending is of "open checkbook" style due to tax budget increasing and passing consistently. I agree with parker that you want it, earn it that's how America was made. we all wonder why things are the way they are now (as far as economics) its because we no longer earn what we have we have a program for it weather it be welfare, grants, incentives etc. and the majority of it all ends up to be no more than a fart in whirlwind at the end of it all. and yes new equipment not only is more efficient considering energy costs but gives that person opportunity to produce more. lets face it most people doing this are taking advantage of the ridiculous programs, probably thinking "if they're going to give it someone mine as well take it" not so sure that attitude is right although hcan be tempting.

[GeneralStark]

I find it pretty discouraging that the more common response when it comes to solving complex issues is to just blame someone else for the problem. Bulk producers are upset because the price for syrup is lower than it has been due to the current exchange rate and they blame it on other sugarmakers receiving grants?!?! Really?

There is absolutely no way that any sugarmaker has received grants (free money, welfare, whatever you want to call it) to purchase a new evaporator. If so let's see the proof. Sure the NRCS was giving matching funds for ROs and Steamaways for a period of time and now Efficiency VT is giving matching funds for new ROs for some producers. This aint free money people. Clearly you have never applied for a grant if you think this is free money.

When neighbors turn on neighbors in their search for someone to blame while Exxon is receiving massive subsidies to keep the price of gas artificially low, we have reached an all time low. The irony of one sugarmaker blaming another for wasting taxpayer dollars on new equipment so they can become more efficient while massive corporations are receiving "corporate welfare" is astounding.

There is certainly a fight here to fight, but pointing the fingers at other sugarmakers is about as assinine as trying to milk a bull.

[Parker]

Hmmm,,,,if you would like i will mail you my energy efficancy application and you can read it for yourself,,,like i said my bud got a 4x14 with steamaway for 8k with energy audit,,,i can think of many many many examples of others reciving free stuff who could have eaisly afforded to buy the stuff .gov gave them,,,,sure it takes a while to fill out the grant but it has a pretty big pay off,,,,im not blaming anyone person or reason or really group of people for a low bulk price,,,there are many factors,,,i know i could apply for the grant and from what the lady said im the "poster child" for the grant with a 5x16 wood hog (huge carbon foot print).......i just have a moral objection to taking money for my personal gain that the country has to borrow.......if exxon mobil jumped off a bridge, would you? No need for my kids to pay taxes for my gain.....definatly not trying to start a fight,,belittle anyone,,or hurt anyones feelings,,,i just want to work for what i have without taking from another..and if everyone did that then the country would not be 23 trillion in debt ...and of course increased production has an impact on price,,,thats the way capitalism works,,,,,,if this view hurts your feelings mabey ask yourself why? To each their own.......now if there were a program where you could get a loan from .gov that had to be paid back id do that,,,,,thats called working for what you have. Whats your mailing address?

[mellondome]

Syrup is not part of a capitalistic process. It is unfortunately/fortunately (depending on you viewpoint) controlled by a cartel type organization/government that is outside the USA border. Our production is not significant enough to effect the outcome of the market pricing.

[GeneralStark]

There is only one reason for low bulk prices. Exchange rate...simple as that. Once US production is comparable to Canada, then that may change.

No need to send me your NRCS application (if that is what you are referring to) as I have been through it myself. I understand the deal and know that they aint dealing in evaporators. Steamaways and ROs. Perhaps your friend was able to receive a rural development grant or perhaps there is some NH program that provides funds for new evaporators. Or maybe he is just having some fun with you to get you all worked up.

Regardless, one man's free money is another man's economic development.

Our national debt has nothing to do with economic development programs or energy efficiency programs, which is how sugarmakers are taking advantage of available tax payer dollars. Fighting wars to secure other nation's resources and subsidies to corporate America on the old tax payer credit card is at fault. No return on investment for you and me there.

I totally agree when it comes to moral objections to taking from others, but using tax payer funds to develop local economies is what .gov is really for IMO. Fighting wars for profit and greed for a few is not.

I don't hear anyone complaining about low fuel oil prices this year, but I can guarantee that costs more to the taxpayer than new equipment to sugarmakers.

[Parker]

Ha ha,,,,Its all how you look at it i guess,,,,we could argu about this for a long long time,,,i understand your viewpoint,,,and i understand mine,,,we simply have a diffrance of opinion,,,,talk to some equipment dealers and enlighten yourself,,,you might be missing out on free stuff.....i will work for what i have,,,thanks,,,good luck with the rest of your season my friend......as for production increases i believe if it says vermont or new hampshire syrup on the bottle it is supposed to be from those places,,,,so how does canada figure into that equation? Just wondering.....no trying to be rude,,,,just my point of view...

[GeneralStark]

Nothing like sharing opinions. I suspect we agree on many things, especially the value of honest work. No free stuff here, just a rig paid for with a FSA loan and the rest with the sale of maple products direct to my customers so I don't have to worry about what the Federation thinks the price should be.

Good luck with the rest of your season too Parker! Enjoy every last minute of it.

[blissville maples]

how about this, exchage rate this exchange rate that.................bottom line is all these grants incentives whatever are basically a form of welfare i.e taking government money in any form.........and as parker I will also be busting my @$$ and body for what I have.....props for those that work 7 days a week not 5! im with parker here time for this taking to end and provide for ourselves not be provided for by tax dollars!!! ill take the 24 gallon bulk and making money doing so on a 20 y/oi rig no steamaway ll wood fired, cut wood today on sunday til 6pm!!!!!!! American dream right there work work work

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Parker quote "as for production increases i believe if it says vermont or new hampshire syrup on the bottle it is supposed to be from those places,,,,so how does canada figure into that equation? Just wondering..."

Parker,
I am no expert, but believe that when the General is referring to the exchange rate controlling our prices, he means just that. And as far as I know, he is 100% correct. It now cost you, me and everyone in the US .77 cents in US dollars to purchase $1 of syrup from Canada.

Canada produces 90% +/- of the annual total world production, so the price their federation pays is what syrup is worth (sadly). As far as I know, they are paying their producers $2.95 per lb. So to get the price your syrup is worth on the bulk market, you take $2.95, and multiply that by the exchange rate .77 cents. (2.95 * .77 = 2.27).

So why does the CA price matter? If a US baking company needed 10,000 lbs of syrup, they will purchase it from the most economical resource available. For the US to be competitive, our syrup prices need to be around what it would cost for a person to purchase syrup from CA.

Now the reason the Canadian dollar has lost its value seems to be mostly linked to the low oil prices. Apparently the Canadian economy is heavily tied to the oil market. So as you and I pay less for gas, we get less for our syrup. At this point I am willing to pay $3 a gallon for gas so I can get more for my syrup.

Ben

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Nothing is FREE unless a person is a welfare rat living off the backs of working tax paying Americans

[BAP]

This thread is getting way out of hand. Topic was about bulk pricing not handouts. Moderators should close this thread.

[Parker]

Why? It addresses an interesting topic that sugarmakers have strong strong opinions about....i think its interesting that none of the recipiants of of large amounts of taxpayer money have piped up to defend the program......i know a bunch that are on the trader.........just sayin.......

[dlclark_76]

Does anyone know if the prices have been set for this year? Seems to me that if the prices for Canada were set 2 years ago and our price is solely dependent on the exchange rate then it should be easy for the large bulk buyers to give prices. Just my 2 cents.

Doug

[unc23win]

Ennismaple posted $2.27 using the exchange rate in another thread.

[wiam]

I have heard $2.20 from several packers.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I heard the $2.20 quote too. Question might be if there is a difference between grades depending on the abundance or lack thereof of certain colors.

[CBOYER]

Does anyone know if the prices have been set for this year? Seems to me that if the prices for Canada were set 2 years ago and our price is solely dependent on the exchange rate then it should be easy for the large bulk buyers to give prices. Just my 2 cents.

Doug

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?26629-2016-Bulk-Pricing&p=296259#post296259

Prices are for 2016. Federation are in negociations right now with CIE (Conseil de l’industrie de l’érable )for 2017 and ???

[GeneralStark]

how about this, exchage rate this exchange rate that.................bottom line is all these grants incentives whatever are basically a form of welfare i.e taking government money in any form.........and as parker I will also be busting my @$$ and body for what I have.....props for those that work 7 days a week not 5! im with parker here time for this taking to end and provide for ourselves not be provided for by tax dollars!!! ill take the 24 gallon bulk and making money doing so on a 20 y/oi rig no steamaway ll wood fired, cut wood today on sunday til 6pm!!!!!!! American dream right there work work work

How about this...you can believe whatever you want to believe but it does not make it true.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Federation recently set their prices at $2.95 slightly higher than $2.91 it was supposed to be.

[GeneralStark]

A pretty good explanation of why the bulk price has dropped for U.S. producers for those of you still trying to wrap your head around it. No mention of tax payer handouts to sugarmakers.

https://www.themaplenews.com/story/expect-significantly-lower-bulk-syrup-prices-in-2016/55/

[lmathews]

Any one have current prices?

[Moser's Maple]

Basom's $2.10/lb
off flavor $1.95/lb

[DrTimPerkins]

A pretty good explanation of why the bulk price has dropped for U.S. producers for those of you still trying to wrap your head around it.

More discussion and some historical context of this topic can be found in a story we (UVM PMRC) had in the Dec 2015 Maple News.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Trends%20IV%20-%20Bulk%20Syrup%20Prices.pdf

[wiam]

Goodrich's paying $2.20 for the top 3 grades.

[n8hutch]

Goodrich's paying $2.20 for the top 3 grades.
That's interesting, I realize that they probably don't move as much syrup as Bascom's but he is paying more and I have found his pricing on equipment to be very good.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Canadian dollar is now just a fraction of a cent less than 80 cents. Federation price converts to about $2.35 US. Might be a year when it pays to hold on to some of your bulk syrup.....

[wiam]

Canadian dollar is now just a fraction of a cent less than 80 cents. Federation price converts to about $2.35 US. Might be a year when it pays to hold on to some of your bulk syrup.....

Maybe, but I bet the big guys have already committed at a set price from Canada.

[mellondome]

Yes... and that price is in canadian dollars.

[tuckermtn]

has anyone sold any very dark bulk lately? what is the going price for good filtered very dark?

[maple maniac65]

1.60 to 1.90

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

has anyone sold any very dark bulk lately? what is the going price for good filtered very dark?

well can do what some are doing, 33 dollars a gallon or 3 for 100, craigs list, a lot more than 22 a gal(bulk price)approx.

[wdchuck]

That's called "the race to the bottom"!

[wiam]

That's called "the race to the bottom"!
What do you call selling it for $18 bulk then.

[Hop Kiln Road]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-08-10/maple-syrup-cartel-battles-a-black-market-rebellion

[wdchuck]

I call $18/gal "Market bulk price"......but that's not what I was referring to. Once you put that syrup in a gallon or smaller container, it becomes retail, and more syrup means lower pricing, so we need to be cautious in lowering prices.

[maple2]

Did it cost less to make syrup this year than last? We have never gone down on our wholesale or retail price.I have found that people dont buy more because its cheaper. If its too cheap,they think something is wrong with it. If you have a surplus of syrup, put on a clean shirt and start knocking on doors

[maple maniac65]

Take a real good look at the dairy industry and what the federal government did when it subsidized the small farmer right out of business. Maple is starting to take that same trend as the wholesale price of milk. The price of equipment, supplies, insurance, labor rise but the wholesale price declines although retail stays about the same. When the net does not cover costs and a sugarmaker is working off farm to cover expenses. Do we then turn for a bailout and next year the price is even lower. Maple has always been calculated by demand, production , exchange rate and the reserve.

[GeneralStark]

Well it was a good season for northern producers and the bulk price is low so no surprise the race to the bottom is on. Looks like Thad is not the only one selling syrup on CL at low prices anymore....

But, I bet the guys that are really making out are the ones advertising their syrup as "slow boiled" and ro and pipeline free. :lol:

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Interesting times......curbing the "black market" or increasing supply to it? hmmmmm, wonder what I would do :lol:
I have no issue with loosening government regulations but at the same time, subsidies need to be tightened or we'll be in the same boat as the dairy industry.

[tuckermtn]

Interesting times......curbing the "black market" or increasing supply to it? hmmmmm, wonder what I would do :lol:
I have no issue with loosening government regulations but at the same time, subsidies need to be tightened or we'll be in the same boat as the dairy industry.

I interpreted the article to mean that quota was being increased, or "loosened", but the regulations that govern the Federation and their pricing and oversight will stay the same.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Agreed, I meant to say government control......the quotas which pricing is directly tied to. I don't fully understand the train of thought for reducing "black market" supply. Do they really think more supply will help that? How about oversight? Do they even have a clue what crosses the border in Jackman and border towns in other states?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Looks like Thad is not the only one selling syrup on CL at low prices anymore....

:lol:
and he is selling 8-12 gallons a week and a lot of the time people drive to him, no delivery cost, time lost,
$18 144 -216
$33 264-394

im thinking about it
33 gallon
18 1/2
10 qt
5 pt.

[GeneralStark]

Yes but is Thad's syrup slow boiled? :confused:

In all seriousness it is up to every producer to determine what their syrup is worth and what they are comfortable getting paid for it. In this current market it may make sense for a bulk producer to sell their syrup at $35/gal. and perhaps they are making good money for them doing it. So good for them I say.

However, the retail market for syrup, unlike the bulk market, is a relatively "free market" so when bulk producers start selling retail syrup at just over bulk prices ( in association jugs no less) and get excited about their own personal prospects doing so; the fundamental question is: is this good for the retail market, or is it just good for them?

[Hop Kiln Road]

http://www.concordmonitor.com/Feds-to-complete-purchase-of-Maine-blueberries-3809643

[Parker]

Thats kinda what i ask myself when people take huge govt. Maple welfare handouts....(didnt i see a link to an exciting new offer here somewhere?)..but that dosent happen,in reality right?,and with all that added new syrup i can now produce caus i can process so much more in the same ammount of time wth my energy efficiant new mega r.o and super duper tax payer funded rig now, i can add another 3000 taps,,,but cant seem to get much for it on the bulk market for some reason??? Hmmm,,,,and the added local production that gets delivered to the packers free of trucking it, brokering it out of canada never affects the market,,,,right?!?! And now joe shmow is going to my retail markets undercutting my price,,,,,,,,kinda funny when you think about it......dont get me wrong,,im not complaining,,,just a reality of life going forward,,,and one we will all have to deal with going forward,,,,,just like dairy farming,,the price drops so add more cows quick!!!

[Hop Kiln Road]

You're right, Parker. Supply side economics, capital gain cuts to spur investment, trickle down, Greenspan's self survival theory, bank bailouts, the list goes on and on and they're all proven to be economic trash. The maple Canadians, just like the oil Saudis, have the lowest unit production cost and, using sound economic theory, they will increase production to protect their market shares, meanwhile, we're busy buying wild blueberries to give away...

[Parker]

Oh man,,now we get the goverment to buy the oversupply they created by giving out money to stimulate production, sorry, i ment energy effeciancy?!?! Lets set the price at $4 a pound,,keep the energy efficancy program in place and see what happens!!!! Think about all the jobs you could create on the back of the taxpayers,,,,I might have to even get in on that action , i would be making sky high stacks of cash,,,........brilliant........here is an idea,,how about we set up some tarrifs on can. Syrup and put an end to the gov. Assistance.......this should be interesting.....

[Parker]

Well, lets, for a moment think about why can. Syrup can be produced for less,,,,anyone? What would be the factors involved? Im sure there are many here more enlightened than me on this subject..........
I was thinking about the affectes of NAFTA on the lumber industry today as i was pulling a hitch......when i was growing up there was a pine sawmill in pretty much every town in n.h.,,,,,,now there are like 5 to 9 not sure? Large sawmills in n.h.,,,,, most logs get sold to concentration yards with the majority of the logs going just over the border into can. Then trucked back into the u.s.,,,,,now why is that?

[markcasper]

Its unfortunate for us maple producers that timber prices crashed 10 years ago like they did. If timber prices would have continued on, there are tracts of maple that would have never been tapped period, and right in our backyard. The property taxes have gotten so bad for "recreational" landowners that drilling holes or pasturing the woods are the only 2 options to limit the tax bills. The only hope is that enough people lose money and give it up, unfortunately we are just seeing the beginning of this. In all reality, something is wrong when packers are selling gallons for 60 plus dollars and a producer can sell for half and still make a little.

[GeneralStark]

It kind of sounds like you guys are asking for more regulation of the maple market...:o

[Hop Kiln Road]

That's sophistry, General.

[Parker]

I had to look that up,,,perfect word......

Genral, often i read your posts and just have to wonder,,,,,,,,,

Our govt. And the can. Govt. Create an unfair playing field,,,,,,whatever,,,,,,,yes,, we are in a long term race to the bottom,,,,,,,but... l enjoy sugaring, alot,,live for it really,,and willll solider on thru rain, mud deep snow and flood no matter the cost,,i know, i should just take the gov money and get a gofast setup and add another 3000 taps that my kids will be on the hook for,,,,but,,,nahhh,,,where is the fun in that,,,i will earn what i have........

[AdirondackSap]

The only people who survive the race to the botto. Are the people who didnt finance there equipment. If your smart and payed cash for equipment and own your taps you will make out hefty in 10 years qhen everyone else is bankrupt or cant afford to do it anymore.

[markcasper]

Kind of brings to mind "You just need to hold on at the evaporator just a few days longer." circa 2010 - 2012 range equipment catalog, Bruce Bascom.

[spud]

The only people who survive the race to the botto. Are the people who didnt finance there equipment. If your smart and payed cash for equipment and own your taps you will make out hefty in 10 years qhen everyone else is bankrupt or cant afford to do it anymore.

You got that right Adirondack. I have been saying this for years here on Trader. The maple equipment dealers and the Ag loan people want to have their hands in your back pocket every step of the way. I have a friend that has to pay $25,000 on June 1st of every year for his Ag-Sugaring loan. Last year he only made $22,000 and the bulk prices keep going down. What's the point of sugaring for NOTHING? In many cases people selling their sap are making more money per tap then the people boiling.

Spud

[lakeview maple]

Everything bought and paid for through blood ,lots of sweat and a couple of tears. Dumped every nickel back in since day one and now we own it all free and clear. Its ok to do what you need to run your business, but when your over your head on an unstable market time to rethink your plan. Now lets see where the cards will fall.

[wdchuck]

I'm with you guys, that debt free is a good way to go, if you can. I've done it, but at times wished I'd gone all in earlier with a debt load. .....and Spud, your example of the guy who is now under water is something I suspect we'll see more of in the next 5 years. We've seen way too much growth on the production side of things. All that alleged growth of worldwide sales isn't coming from us small guys- its from the packers, a near monopoly situation. I'm sticking with my plan of slow growth and developing my own markets- I buy bulk syrup, not sell it!

[maple flats]

That's exactly why I never took any loans or debt of any kind for maple, barring 1, my tractor. I financed that in Aug., 2013 and pd. it off this past May. My total interest pd. was less than the discount I got for paying "cash". The loan was thru a bank and not the dealer, thus it was considered a cash sale. I borrowed $21,000 in Aug. 2013, got a $3000 cash rebate, and paid a total of just under $1500 interest over the life of the bank loan at 3.9%. I had a 5 yr. loan but made accelerated payments. That is the only loan I've had since starting maple in 2003. The tractor however is used for a lot more than maple. The only maple it does is haul full barrels, move firewood, sometimes pull logs and occasionally push back snow banks.
For this reason I can hold my syrup and only sell retail. The only bulk I do is if I have commercial or an excess of very dark. This year I only sold a partial bbl of very dark bulk. I sell some very dark at retail, but I had about 25 gal excess.

[Brian Ryther]

In many cases people selling their sap are making more money per tap then the people boiling.

Spud
And you promote the inflated sap prices that your area commands?

[n8hutch]

I think folks are forgetting that the Bulk Price is Basically Connected To the Strength of the Canadian Dollar and in Turn The Strength of the Canadian Dollar is connected to the Price of Oil.

While it's unfortunate that some people have to Sell their syrup so cheap it will continue until the price of Fuel rebounds which could take a long time, 4 to 5 years ago when the Bulk price was out of site the Canadian Dollar was very strong compared to our American Dollars.

The only problem I see with selling your syrup too cheap is that people might get used to paying those low numbers and expect it in the future. But then again I'm not making 10,000 Gallons a year so what do I know.

[spud]

And you promote the inflated sap prices that your area commands?

The sap prices in my area are not inflated at all. The prices are right where they should be and that is 65-70% of bulk price. The only sap buyer's that would complain about paying these prices are those who are greedy or those with poor inefficient sugar house set-ups. Mike Farrell has proving many sugar makers wrong when they say they can only afford to pay 50%. If 50% is all a person can ( Truly ) afford to pay for sap then Mike Farrell could (Truly) show you what you're doing wrong.

Spud

[BAP]

A lot of finger pointing here in this thread to fellow sugar makers which is sad to read. In reality, if you are producing syrup to sell, then you are in business just like any other kind of business and competing with each other for the consumers dollars. Like any other agricultural related commodity, there is a lack of free market trade because of a cartel controlling the prices on a large portion of the syrup produced influencing the prices everyone else receives. If you are willing to and able to gamble that borrowing money to expand your operation and succeed then great. If you can take advantage of energy saving grants, good for you. If you are willing to under sell the market price of syrup, that's your choice. If you are confident that your sap is worth X amount because some research says so, good for you but don't expect everyone to be willing to pay that much just because a researcher says so. When it comes down to it, if you are selling syrup, it is a business that is competitive for the consumers dollars. The point being we are all sugar makers and doing it for our own reasons and should be willing to except that there is no one correct way of running our operations and should not force others to conform to what you think it should be. We should all share ideas that allows others to learn from our successes or failure so we can help each other, and not belittle others.

[lpakiz]

And keep in mind that something that works or is accepted in one geographic area of the country is not necessarily valid in another. If someone would stop here with a load of sap and demand 70% of bulk, I would tell him to get back in the truck and keep going.

[GeneralStark]

Great post BAP! Thanks for that.

[BAP]

Your Welcome General. I hope everyone on this forum continues to share ideas and learn from each other. I know I do.

[markcasper]

I think its fair to say this is going to affect equipment sales as well. They all have been pushing to hard get market share, but the tide will probably change real fast. I know my wife told me now it'd be a good time to forget about tubing that "other" woods, she asked me why, what is the point? I'm still trying to come up with the answer. I think there is alot of denial out there.

[hookhill]

Sounds like general panic. Yes it hurts when the price tanks but we have seen this before. The price needs to be low for several years before getting too upset. For the guys that took on loans, the current price hurts the most. I spent 25k last season on used equipment and sap, but did not take out any loans. Sold 200 gallons bulk, and have another 200 gallons in jugs. That puts me a bit under water for this year but after a few years I should be able to catch up. Thank god I have another job. If I had to depend on agriculture to make a living it would take all the fun out of it. For those folks that living depends on it, "we feel your pain".

[Thad Blaisdell]

I was told by a couple of sugar makers that my name had been mentioned a few times here, so I stopped in to see for myself. All I can say about how I set my price is that I am willing to sell my syrup for bulk price. That is $2.20 per pound or roughly 24.75 per gallon or 990 per barrel. Now at 3/100 which is what I charge so 33.33 per gallon. Less the bulk price, I make $8.58 less the jug $1.62. I net 6.94 (extra) that's 277.60 per barrel. Takes less than a couple of hours total to can it up. Sorry but that to me is great profit. Now comes the happy part most people buy 3.

[spud]

A lot of finger pointing here in this thread to fellow sugar makers which is sad to read. In reality, if you are producing syrup to sell, then you are in business just like any other kind of business and competing with each other for the consumers dollars. Like any other agricultural related commodity, there is a lack of free market trade because of a cartel controlling the prices on a large portion of the syrup produced influencing the prices everyone else receives. If you are willing to and able to gamble that borrowing money to expand your operation and succeed then great. If you can take advantage of energy saving grants, good for you. If you are willing to under sell the market price of syrup, that's your choice. If you are confident that your sap is worth X amount because some research says so, good for you but don't expect everyone to be willing to pay that much just because a researcher says so. When it comes down to it, if you are selling syrup, it is a business that is competitive for the consumers dollars. The point being we are all sugar makers and doing it for our own reasons and should be willing to except that there is no one correct way of running our operations and should not force others to conform to what you think it should be. We should all share ideas that allows others to learn from our successes or failure so we can help each other, and not belittle others.

BAP you are right in saying there is no one way of doing things. Although if you really want to know what works best then you should read the research done by many research outlets (not just one ). If you would humble yourself a bit then you could learn to be a better sugar maker. My past post never said we here in Franklin County DEMAND a high price for our sap. Here in Franklin County ( The sugaring Capital of America ) getting up to 70% for our sap is just the norm. For some to say that if someone came to their sugarhouse and demand that price they would tell them to get back into their truck is silly. No sap seller is going to a 150 tap back yard operation to sell their sap in the first place. The funny thing is you little backyard sugar makers are the ones on the tour buses every summer visiting the big operations. You enter these operations with wide eyes and a jaw hitting the floor. Your cameras are snapping photos as fast as they can just trying to take it all in. You are seeing more sap moving through ROs and evaporators then you have ever seen in your life. You're seeing 150+ gallons of Vermont Gold being drawn off per hour as you and you're sugaring buddy just stares at each other in awe. But what you're not getting is that you are in a sugar house that has been set up for max production with the smallest amount of money spent to make a gallon of syrup. It's these operations that come running to people like me wanting to buy my sap for top dollar. They can pay this amount because they set their operations up RIGHT and know profit can still be made. Now most smaller sugar maker's come to the big operations and ask questions and learn so they can go back to their much smaller operation and make changes to better their set-ups. These are great people and i enjoyed talking to them while showing them a large operation that I sell sap to. These are the people that are humble and want to learn. You and a small group of back yard boy's (1000 taps or less) seem to think you know more then the Researchers and the large operations. Thad sells his syrup for $33.33 a gallon and still makes a profit. You say people like that are undercutting. He's not undercutting the market because the bulk market is $2.20 a pound. What you are saying is this ( There is no way I can sell my syrup for $33.00 a gallon so therefore nobody else really should). If the little guy can sell his syrup for $80+ a gallon in small jugs at a fe
lea market then I am thrilled for him. But don't expect everyone else to follow you. And don't say someone is undercutting the industry if you're not happy with their price. I have learned so much from people like Dr. Tim and Mike Farrell and yet I have heard so many negative comments about their work from people that think much to highly of themselves. If you don't like research and you don't want to learn and better yourself, and you think your smarter then the big operations then get off the bus and go home.

Spud

[AdirondackSap]

I am really trying hard to see how these big guys pull a profit. There running 100thoysand taps at 10$ a tap for high vac thats a million dollars just to tube that. Not to mention the evaporators and ros easily another 200k. On top of that you havrme your taxes labour etc etc. At 25 a gallon there lucky to bring in 300k i just dont see it.

[AdirondackSap]

One thing i think that has made Bascoms succesful is he doesnt sell syrup for bulk. He buys syrup at bulk then turns around and sells it for more tha. What he bought it for. Its all about finding the markets. This year we decided to go far south to arkansas and texaa to sell syrup. Just to show you how competetive its got we were at a stop in texas selling syrup and there phone rang. It was mapleland farms out of salem ny trying to sell syrup to them bought they but it feom is because we were right there with syrup in hand. I juat hand them a little sample and it sells it self. To me my surup is worth more than 33$ a gallon but to your neighbor he might only value syrup at 25$ a gallon. Why sell it for 25$ if you can get 50$ a gallon. I would rather sit on my syrup than to give it away cheap. They say there making money but with more taps comea more expensis. I think there teying to push the littls guy out in hopes if theu can stay in it long enough things might start to turn around. What do i know ive only been doing this 6 years and just a small producer that should just keep his thoughts to himself.

[BAP]

BAP you are right in saying there is no one way of doing things. Although if you really want to know what works best then you should read the research done by many research outlets (not just one ). If you would humble yourself a bit then you could learn to be a better sugar maker. My past post never said we here in Franklin County DEMAND a high price for our sap. Here in Franklin County ( The sugaring Capital of America ) getting up to 70% for our sap is just the norm. For some to say that if someone came to their sugarhouse and demand that price they would tell them to get back into their truck is silly. No sap seller is going to a 150 tap back yard operation to sell their sap in the first place. The funny thing is you little backyard sugar makers are the ones on the tour buses every summer visiting the big operations. You enter these operations with wide eyes and a jaw hitting the floor. Your cameras are snapping photos as fast as they can just trying to take it all in. You are seeing more sap moving through ROs and evaporators then you have ever seen in your life. You're seeing 150+ gallons of Vermont Gold being drawn off per hour as you and you're sugaring buddy just stares at each other in awe. But what you're not getting is that you are in a sugar house that has been set up for max production with the smallest amount of money spent to make a gallon of syrup. It's these operations that come running to people like me wanting to buy my sap for top dollar. They can pay this amount because they set their operations up RIGHT and know profit can still be made. Now most smaller sugar maker's come to the big operations and ask questions and learn so they can go back to their much smaller operation and make changes to better their set-ups. These are great people and i enjoyed talking to them while showing them a large operation that I sell sap to. These are the people that are humble and want to learn. You and a small group of back yard boy's (1000 taps or less) seem to think you know more then the Researchers and the large operations. Thad sells his syrup for $33.33 a gallon and still makes a profit. You say people like that are undercutting. He's not undercutting the market because the bulk market is $2.20 a pound. What you are saying is this ( There is no way I can sell my syrup for $33.00 a gallon so therefore nobody else really should). If the little guy can sell his syrup for $80+ a gallon in small jugs at a fe
lea market then I am thrilled for him. But don't expect everyone else to follow you. And don't say someone is undercutting the industry if you're not happy with their price. I have learned so much from people like Dr. Tim and Mike Farrell and yet I have heard so many negative comments about their work from people that think much to highly of themselves. If you don't like research and you don't want to learn and better yourself, and you think your smarter then the big operations then get off the bus and go home.

Spud
Spud, you need to get off your high horse. I never said most of the stuff you are accusing me of saying. You are so sure of yourself, and claim to be an expert, but are afraid to put in your profile how big your operation is and the fact you don't make syrup, only sell sap. If you actually bothered to read anything anybody puts in their profile, you would see that I used to have 16,000+ taps before being disabled and I have sugared for over 45 years. As far as research, I have read a lot over the years having been a farmer most of my whole life. The problem is, research doesn't always work as accurately out in the real world where there tends to be more uncontrollable variables. Research has led to many valuable improvements over the years, but isn't the gospel bible of the only way to do things. What it boils down to, is you are the one that is afraid to learn from others and value others opinions, for that I feel sorry that you are so stuck in your ways that you can only see that you are the only one that is right. To belittle all the "Little Producers" on this great forum just shows how shallow you are and is ignorant. Many small producers are just as great sugarmakers and maybe even better people than some of the "Big Producers". If you can't stand others opinions then ignore them but don't put them down.

[southfork]

It is a free market system. Free to spend what you want, and charge what you wish.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I am really trying hard to see how these big guys pull a profit. There running 100thoysand taps at 10$ a tap for high vac thats a million dollars just to tube that. Not to mention the evaporators and ros easily another 200k. On top of that you havrme your taxes labour etc etc. At 25 a gallon there lucky to bring in 300k i just dont see it.

100,000 taps at 1/2 gal per tap..... 50,000 gallons of syrup. Now at 24.75 per gallon =1,237,500. That is how they make money.

[n8hutch]

I think all you guys are getting a little excited. I don't think anybody was really attacking anyone personally or their business plan.

Probably should get back to the topic at hand. I don't think there's any doubt that the bigger you are the lower you can sell for. The return on investments is much quicker the more taps you have. And guys that can tinker with stuff for a year or two can make syrup pretty Darn cheap.

Like Parker says . You gotta want it.

[AdirondackSap]

Thats if they get .50 gallons per tap and there making table grade the whole time. Something like 20-30% is going to be darker or commercial grade which doeant pay out. Heck even bascoms in new hampshire claims 75k taps and made 33000 gallons thats on a supreme year what about your bad years like 2012. Then with tubing constantly needing upkeep im surprised if most operations break even. I cant imagine someone sitting on Syrup when they got bills due for the month so of course there taking bulk price. Its down more like 1.90 lb$ right now with commercial at like 50 cents a lb. Which in turn is drivi g the price down even further because people have no choice but to accept those prices.

[PerryFamily]

I sold Bascom a couple 5 gallon commercial jugs not too long ago and they paid well over the .50 cents previously mentioned. Personally I could care less what anyone sells their syrup for. I know what it takes me to make it and I know what I get for it. On the wholesale level, which I do a fair bit of I sell for $3/lb. in barell, 5's or gallon jugs. That's above the bulk price so I'm happy. Keep in mind this price is for "bulk" type of sale. These customers buy in volume and buy it frequently. I think the problem we have here is the market is flooded with retail sales. We need to look into our own retail markets. I've started selling in South ( 19 hrs south) and the market is awesome. No competition and people want a health product. To each his own....just one hobbyists opinion

[wdchuck]

I'll take my chances and pipe up just once more here. .....On my original comment about 33/gal syrup, I personally think that if Thad put his farm prices back up near typical farmgate prices, he'd make just as much money with only a little bit more marketing effort. As a wholesaler, I'm always a bit edgey about downward pressure on any syrup prices- lower prices=lower income. And I'm not spewing my thoughts blindly here, If I recall correctly, I've brought that thought up to Thad, and he simply sees it differently. That's Ok, we'll simply have to agree to disagree. In the meantime, lets all take a big, deep, cleansing breath and not get too carried away.

[Hop Kiln Road]

Gentlemen, I think Thad is right on track. Everything points toward a weakening of the current bulk prices with $10 Canadian quarts in all the US box stores the new normal. And if the history of other agricultural commodities provides an accurate projection, this environment, absent government intervention, will lead to a consolidation within the US industry, some of it, unfortunately, forced. While this will have little effect on small producers, the mid range producers below some threshold - like 50,000 gallons - are going to get pinched.

[AdirondackSap]

The 50 cents a lb was for the end of season ropey syrup. Heck i know a guy whos quarter of a crop was all ropey. I also keep all my receipts if you would like to see the 50 cents a lb for syrup ropey off flavored.

[southfork]

Agree with Hop Kiln Road. Especially mid level producers with business debt. Consolidation will follow trends already experienced in most other areas of ag production, and for somewhat similar reasons.

[GeneralStark]

Except that Maple Syrup is made from a wild crop with a limited growing region. You can grow corn and soy in a much larger area, and milk can be made throughout a large region of the world.

You are worried now? Wait until the Chinese start growing maples in climate controlled greenhouses using Dr. Tim's sapling method and then you will really be screwed!!:o:o:o

But seriously, I talk to all of my customers (that's how my business model works) and they are all currently very happy with the prices they pay for my products. I often hear that they could certainly pay less at Costco, or Trader Joe's (not much less though), but they would rather buy from me, a true sugarmaker. It's all about education and marketing and for those of us willing to do it, the market for maple products is nearly limitless.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't get into these kind of posts but I will this time to add a useful comment. If we spent 10% as much time marketing as we doing producing, this conversation would not be happening. Most are content on producing and don't do any marketing or educating. We are only scratching the surface of the potential US market, much less the rest of the world.This is only going to be done through marketing and many more people getting involved. Canada got approval earlier this year to add 6 million more taps so we need to focus more on marketing.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I have been selling my syrup at this price range for 7 years now. When bulk was up my price went up. Now when I start selling close to my whole crop I will ease my price up. But as far as marketing goes I think this is by far the best long term business plan ever. I am making a profit not really ever leaving my house. By the way, in the last 3 days I have sold 21 gallons and believe I have a deal pending for another 80. Volume is my marketing plan. Some people see this as a race to the bottom, it very well could be. So if I start at the bottom and can make a profit, then what happens when I move up?

Wdchuck and I have talked about this in the past, I greatly respect his opinions and his game plan to sell his syrup. The biggest differences between him and I are (1) the amount of years we have been sugaring. (2) the amount of work (time) we are willing to commit to marketing our products.

[GeneralStark]

I personally think the problem with starting at the bottom and working your way up is that your customers will just go find someone else on CL selling syrup for cheaper than you.

[K.I. Joe]

There are two types of customers in my opinion. Price shoppers and people who don't care about the price. There is room for both out there. I am marketing to people who just want good syrup and don't care so much on price. I charge a reasonable rate for what I produce. I am not looking for customers who are price shopping. That being said I don't have any desire to sell bulk. Why let someone else make the money on your work?

[spud]

I personally think the problem with starting at the bottom and working your way up is that your customers will just go find someone else on CL selling syrup for cheaper than you.

General that might be true but how many others are selling for that price or lower? I may be wrong but I can only assume that the people driving to Thad's house to buy three gallons for $100 are people in his area. I doubt many people would drive 2-3 hours just to buy syrup at that price. The beauty of this is Thad's making Profit and he"s happy. I agree that if a person spent more time marketing their syrup then more profit could be made. But the more syrup you have the more time is needed to market it. For most people as soon as sugaring is over we all have a million other things to do. If I had 300 gallons of syrup I know I could sell it right here in Vermont and average $50+ per gallon selling in smaller jugs. For me if I was to boil I would have to find market for 4000 gallons and thats a hard thing to do. For Thad to make $6-8 over bulk price then thats great for him. The people selling all their crop at bulk prices are going to feel the pain the most in the years to come. They spent a lot of money setting up their sugar house and now they need enough sap to pay the bills. This is why sap selling is becoming a big thing in areas where larger operation are set up.

Spud

[southfork]

"This is why sap selling is becoming a big thing in areas where larger operation are set up."

Regional and local sap/concentrate processing plants will become more common. Too expensive on thin margins for all producers to process through finished syrup, especially beyond bulk containers. Speaking of mid level producers here, not the hobbyist. I have always felt selling sap or concentrate to a central processing facility will become an increasing trend, and it is. Commercial production tends to follow concepts already experienced in some other areas of agriculture.

Remember other expenses beyond production. Product liability will become a much larger expense. This is not driven by the government, but rather the retailers and packers who suffer litigation. Grocery chains and stores will not buy your product if you do not have extensive product liability insurance. And, if you are selling directly to a consumer, you should be very well insured. This is just one example.

[GeneralStark]

Spud - Thad asked a question and I responded with a plausible answer. I have no problem with Thad selling his syrup for whatever price he is happy with. I do think we will see more and more bulk producers doing as he does and this trend has already been happening on Craig's list. Go take a look. Until the surplus of of natural gas and oil drops and the price of fossil fuel energy comes back up the price of bull syrup is going to stay low.

[southfork]

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/news/business/corn-syrup-makers-seeking-record-prices-20160819

[spud]

Spud - Thad asked a question and I responded with a plausible answer. I have no problem with Thad selling his syrup for whatever price he is happy with. I do think we will see more and more bulk producers doing as he does and this trend has already been happening on Craig's list. Go take a look. Until the surplus of of natural gas and oil drops and the price of fossil fuel energy comes back up the price of bull syrup is going to stay low.

General I do see a few people selling maple syrup on Vermont CL but not a bunch. Thad's price seems to be the best right now and I'm sure the quality of his syrup is as good as anyones. And I say that because some people ( not you )seem to think the lower the price the lower the quality. This was a discussion a few years ago on Trader. One person said if you sell syrup for less then $40.00 a gallon it must be junk. You may be right that there could be more people posting on CL in the years to come. I will never understand how the price of bulk is truly set. I have been told from some very important people in the maple industry that the Canada dollar has nothing to do with it. This leaves me puzzled and not knowing who to believe. I do agree that the bulk price will go down in the years to come. With Costco selling for $10.99 a quart and making a profit it's hard to think the bulk price will go up unless there is a few poor seasons. I love to see the little guy make top dollar for his syrup. I also enjoy seeing people like Thad making more then bulk using CL. If 50 other big producers start selling on CL This could be a problem for Thad. I think we need to take it one season at a time and hope for the best. When I no longer can tap 9000 my plan is to tap a few hundred and boil it myself. When that happens I also plan to tap a few hundred trees in the fall just for giggles and grins.

Spud

[maple maniac65]

Kinda off topic, but driving on I 93 yesterday got passed by VT plates that read SPUD.

[spud]

Kinda off topic, but driving on I 93 yesterday got passed by VT plates that read SPUD.

That's not me. If I had SPUD on my plates everyone would be giving me and my family the finger. Haha

Spud

[markcasper]

"This is why sap selling is becoming a big thing in areas where larger operation are set up."

Regional and local sap/concentrate processing plants will become more common. Too expensive on thin margins for all producers to process through finished syrup, especially beyond bulk containers.
.

Reynolds Sugar Bush tried to take on the world and look what happened there. They were pushing this concept in the 60's. While some of this will no doubt happen, maple season and the unpredictability of the business will make this a harder sell IMO. There are other uses for maple trees other than syrup too.

[Parker]

I think brandon nailed it,,,,self marketing is the key to sucess,,,,,,not my bag but,,,,,,its going to have to be,,,,my problem is generating opperating money in the start of the season to cover expenses,,(huge),,and taking the time to market after the season.....i also have a hard time undercutting the compitition,,,,there are several decent size accounts i could get by selling my syrup for less than my compitionn (some fellow traders) where i would still get the price i want,,but feel bad for those loosing the account...(not comfortable with that)....i am going to have to read some books on sales,,,,,,turn over a new leaf,,improve my prospects,,much like replacing an old tubing system with one that you know produce exponentially more,,,time consuming and expensive yes, but many potential bennifits

[maple maniac65]

That's not me. If I had SPUD on my plates everyone would be giving me and my family the finger. Haha

Spud

So that wasn't you that I waved too. Whoops

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Reason exchange rate plays into things is that US packers are not going to pay higher prices for US syrup. If they can buy Canadian syrup for say $2.20 with exchange then that is close to what they will pay for US syrup.

[Parker]

And they certinaly wont pay more than they have too when they have all the u.s. syrup they want comming to them free of trucking charge and brokering fees out of canada delivered to their docks because soooo many taps have been added here in the u.s. because of a veriaty of factors ( some of which really hurt peoples feelings when mentioned, dont get me wrong,,i dont care what anyone does,more power to you,,,just think its kind of funny and sad at the same time).......just call bascoms and tell them you have a 70 barrell tractor trailer load that will be arriving tommrow around noon and learn some harsh realities.........oversupply ...... with more comming on line....yes, there are many factors,,no question,,,but how can the bulk price really ever go up any time soon? A shift to retail for those who can is going to be key for those who can,,,,,,,,,imho

[DrTimPerkins]

In my experience the greatest damage to the maple market occurred when syrup supplies got too LOW and the strategic reserve in Quebec ran out. Bulk prices spiked to $4.00/lb, which seemed great, until the ingredient and mass markets stopped using real maple syrup. It took about 10 years for the industry to recover from that.

[Maplewalnut]

I really tried hard to stay out of this thread. I'll take it one step further. $4 Bulk syrup also provided a opportunity for people to sugar for what they thought was a QUICK BUCK. Suppliers reaped the rewards with more sales, more short term producers flooded the market with syrup that would not have been there with steady supply. In a commodity market there will always be peaks and valleys, the key as many have stated is to differentiate yourself. Parker is right, it may be new for some of use but there are resources out there to spurn some ideas. Guy by me now sells syrup for nothing other than maple infused spirits. Its a market and at 10K taps he cant make enough. I expect a lot of producers to drop out steadily in next few years, (although last years crop may have delayed their exit a little) as tubing systems age, yields drop off and the next " I'm going to make it rich" opportunity comes forward.
My predictions - sap selling will become bigger where producers are heavily concentrated, retail markets will grow and people will look at latitudinal partnerships to help minimize seasonal fluctuations.

Mike

[southfork]

Maplewalnut nailed it!

[maple2]

I read somewhere that only 2% of the U.S. population uses maple syrup.Look like alot of open markets out there.

[spud]

I read somewhere that only 2% of the U.S. population uses maple syrup.Look like alot of open markets out there.

Maple2 your probably right on the 2%. The problem I am finding selling syrup in Alaska and the West coast is not everyone cares about real Maple Syrup. I have family members that like the fake stuff. I just lost a store in Alaska because Costco now delivers for free to all stores as long as the order is over $1000. Those are stores they can drive too. Costco in Alaska sells quarts for $10.99 and I cannot match that price. The store owner say's my syrup has better flavor but he still has to go with the cheaper syrup. Educating healthy living by eating Pure Maple Syrup is not going to work very well at all. This country has been telling us about healthy living for years and we are just getting fatter and fatter. I hope we can all find more maple market in the years to come but it's not going to be easy. We are all in this together as Red Green say's.

Spud

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I know it has been said before on here but overseas should be a main focus for all this extra syrup and a new market. My partner has a co-worker from China that bought 8 quarts and took it back to his family........his VERY LARGE FAMILY and it was gone in a month. We are looking to ship him some more. A lot of people have never heard of it, even in the United States.

[fred]

I am really trying hard to see how these big guys pull a profit. There running 100thoysand taps at 10$ a tap for high vac thats a million dollars just to tube that. Not to mention the evaporators and ros easily another 200k. On top of that you havrme your taxes labour etc etc. At 25 a gallon there lucky to bring in 300k i just dont see it.

Your numbers are off. $25 per tap to install. .3 or.25 gallon per tap at $26/ gal is $625,000

[Maplewalnut]

At $25 a tap, I better be getting more than .25gpt or something is wrong. My red maple woods trees give more than .25gpt on 10 yr old tubing

[fred]

That's syrup not sap

[AdirondackSap]

My numbers are right on the money, i do all the tubing installation myself. i guess if you were having someone do it for you its usually 5$ a tap for labour. 10$ in material 5$ for labour = 15$ a tap i wont argue with you because i know it cost me 10 grand in material for 1000k taps.

[Maplewalnut]

That's syrup not sap I understand it's syrup. Still stand by my comment that if I was having someone put in a system for me (which assumes some level of 'professionalism') I better be getting more than .25gpt

[GeneralStark]

Oh boy...

https://www.themaplenews.com/story/5-million-new-taps-to-be-let-in-quebec-on-friday/118/

[Maple Man 85]

What does that mean for the US producers aside from keeping our prices down and our costs up due to ever taxing FDA requirements...

[GeneralStark]

It means the market for maple syrup is growing which is good for all of us....

[spud]

It means the market for maple syrup is growing which is good for all of us....

Not sure about all of us like you say. Most of the syrup made from these 5 million new taps will be sold to American Packers. This means American sugar makers could see lower bulk prices in the near future.

Spud

[Parker]

It means the market for maple is growing????? No,,,,it means the subsadisted production of maple is increasing,,,resulting in downward price pressure in the u.s. markets...hurting the u.s bulk producer. the reason qubec is doing this is not because there is not enough syrup to serve the market..as is obvious is you visit any packers warehouse.....qubec is doing this to decrease the bulk price by flooding the bulk market, lowering the bulk price to put a hurt on us producers as they are a little shocked at how rapidly us taps are increasing resulting in an erosion in market share for them.....this is the same thing the saudies have been doing with oil to destroy tha bakien shale oil market out west,,,,the federation knows they can make syrup cheaper than we can in the u.s. for a veriaty of reasons,,,,,
Please please genral,,,,enlighten me as to how adding 5 million new taps when bulk prices are as low as they are and warehouses are as full as they are means the market is growing.......in in the dark i guess.........

[220 maple]

Should help stabilize the price of a quart of organic Canadian Maple syrup at Costco, 10.89 a quart is a little pricey, about time someone does something for the American consumer, Thank You Federation
Mark 220 Maple

[BAP]

[QUOTE=220 maple;312572]Should help stabilize the price of a quart of organic Canadian Maple syrup at Costco, 10.89 a quart is a little pricey, about time someone does something for the American consumer, Thank You Federation

How is $10.89 a quart "PRICEY"? That's cheap. And how does dumping syrup in the US help American Maple Producers?

[spud]

220 maple brings up an interesting point. The bulk of the people world wide feel the price of pure maple syrup is way to high. The only way the Packers are going to expand their market is to make maple syrup more affordable to more people. I know that maple is pure and natural but to most people world wide they just don't care. Maple has to compete with all the other sweeteners on the store shelves. The only way they can compete is to lower the price. So some may ask how can this help the maple producers? The simple answer is it cannot help the maple producers at all. With warehouses full and millions more taps to come the only thing that can happen is the bulk price will continue to drop. Sometimes selling for less can generate more income if you can see the big picture. By selling at a more affordable price you are now letting people try real maple for the first time in other parts of the world and even in America. The packers need to lure these people in and give them a taste of the real stuff. In order to make this plan work there has to be enough syrup on hand. The packers cannot let a poor season get in the way of their master plan. Adding 5 million new taps in Canada and a few million more taps in America should provide the packers with what they feel they need to get started on their worldwide market plan. The problem the packers could face is if they lower the bulk price too much some sugar makers in USA and Canada will stop producing. This is all factored in with the new taps coming to Canada. American producers will feel the pain first and start to get out of the maple business. The low life American packers will throw their own people under the bus and continue buying from Canada. The packers are hoping that once they lure more people into buying maple they can then slowly raise the price of a quart jug just enough to keep the consumer coming back for more. They have to be careful not to raise their price too much or their new market will go right back to fake syrup. My prediction is there will be way less taps in America in ten years. I also think one or more big packer will go under in the next ten years. Time will tell.

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I'll be at the Canadians like a red headed step child.
New prices
Gallery 25
1/2 18
Qt 9
Pt 5

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I'm all for getting maple syrup out to the rest of the world but it does have some undesirable consequences. The part that sucks is smaller guys like me and my partner won't get any of those extra retail sales when Canada sells it at $10/quart. I'll always have my 60-80 gallons/year of retail but it will make it harder for the small guy to get new retail sales. As has been the trend recently, the guys making the money are the equipment dealers and packers.
And I think spud is right on with his post.........I see a lot of bigger guys or long established family operations hanging it up. I'm glad I do it as a hobby and not a source of income right now. Two years ago I had the bug and wanted to be a big guy, now 5500-6000 taps is perfect for us. Not a lot to gain but not a lot to lose!

[GeneralStark]

It means the market for maple is growing????? No,,,,it means the subsadisted production of maple is increasing,,,resulting in downward price pressure in the u.s. markets...hurting the u.s bulk producer. the reason qubec is doing this is not because there is not enough syrup to serve the market..as is obvious is you visit any packers warehouse.....qubec is doing this to decrease the bulk price by flooding the bulk market, lowering the bulk price to put a hurt on us producers as they are a little shocked at how rapidly us taps are increasing resulting in an erosion in market share for them.....this is the same thing the saudies have been doing with oil to destroy tha bakien shale oil market out west,,,,the federation knows they can make syrup cheaper than we can in the u.s. for a veriaty of reasons,,,,,
Please please genral,,,,enlighten me as to how adding 5 million new taps when bulk prices are as low as they are and warehouses are as full as they are means the market is growing.......in in the dark i guess.........

I'm not interested in discussing your conspiracy theory about "subsidized" maple production any further. Sure, everything is subsidized from road maintenance to low fuel prices as well as cheap electricity etc... so I guess we are all subsidized. Anyway, the article (if you read it) states that the Federation (Not Quebec and instead a co-op of maple producers in Quebec) is expanding to meet the "growing demand for maple syrup and products" and to "become more competitive". Time to invade?

[GeneralStark]

I'll be at the Canadians like a red headed step child.
New prices
Gallery 25
1/2 18
Qt 9
Pt 5

Competing with Thad for the race to the bottom I see...how about $15/gal? or $2/pint? How low will you go?

At the Farmer's Market I do, I have the lowest prices and yet the others selling maple syrup (not even maple producers) are still selling gallons, quarts, you name it. Explain that.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

It's tough to make predictions - especially about the future. Yogi Berra one thing we can do though is watch our fixed costs.

[Parker]

I do apolgise for the poor spelling,,,im pretty beat after the big e and deerfield fairs where i was struggling to get the taste of pure maple syrup into the hands of new custumers for the last 12 days,,,,those 14 to 16 hour days are just like sugaring season,,trying ,increase retail market for maple and all that.....imho,,,,,retailing syrup and value added products is going to be the only way to make it going forward,,,,,as the bulk price drops..alot......yes genral i did read the artical,,,thank you for posting it.......we just have VERY diffrent opinions

[220 maple]

Hey fellow traders did not mean to create a storm about Costco Maple Syrup being a little pricey, I hate it as much as the next producer, however I do have a fellow producer in my county that sales quarts for 9 pints for 5, halves for 15 and gallons for 30, and no they are not Amish, the reason is quite interesting however, lets just say the power of a woman, a young woman at that, probably said to much already, hopefully you can figure it out.

Mark 220 Maple

[PerryFamily]

I think its Quebec response to the sugaring boom here in the US. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of new taps added here. I'm sure they are feeling the pressure from their producers as well.Just flexing their muscles.

[CBOYER]

and to reply to "Rapport Gagné" that propose to the Government to eliminate the Federation controls...:o

http://business.financialpost.com/news/agriculture/quebecs-autocratic-control-over-maple-syrup-producers-in-need-of-major-overhaul-provincial-report

[DrTimPerkins]

The price of syrup in the U.S. has almost nothing to do with supply as a consequence of the situation in Quebec. The price the packers pay is dictated by the Canadian Federation price after factoring in the Canadian Currency Exchange rate. The Federation syrup price hasn't gone done, but the exchange rate has. Therefore what packers will pay for U.S. syrup is down (why would they pay more to U.S. suppliers than they can get it from Canada given that they are selling to the same marketplace and have to compete on cost). Other than that, it depends upon how far they have to truck it and how much the middle-man gets. It is cheap to run several tractor trailer loads down the highway from Quebec to the packers in VT or NH. It costs way more to send them all around the back roads to pick up 10 barrels here and 5 barrels there to get a full load. That is reflected in the price they might pay.

Now whether a packer actually does buy your syrup or not this year IS related to the supply. The packers only have so much space in their warehouses and only so much money their creditors will loan them to buy syrup. They can pretty much only buy what they can store and sell if they wish to stay in business. Given the huge crop this year, you shouldn't be surprised (if you didn't have a prior relationship and agreement in place with them) that they can't take your syrup. That is the nature of any product with high annual fluctuations in production.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think its Quebec response to the sugaring boom here in the US. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of new taps added here. I'm sure they are feeling the pressure from their producers as well.Just flexing their muscles.

That is exactly what it is. Quebec producers didn't like the fact that U.S. producers could expand, and were concerned with losing market share. The Federation had to do something to appease its members and to try to regain market share. They could have done other things, such as dropping the price of syrup, however that would have impacted the value of their crop and the price paid to producers. This was the "least bad" option they could choose.

[fred]

Also a major contributor is there used to be several years of production , waiting to be released. They now have less than a years supply and have to meet needs

[BreezyHill]

There should be a spread sheet developed for producers to fill in so that they can see what their break even point is. I am certain that someone with more time on their hands can jump into excel and get it done.
Then producers can plug in the costs of their equipment and its life span, elec costs per kw, normal usage per machine with the units of horse power, heat, bottle costs, cold storage expenses, tanks, tubing, annual spouts, etc

You can shrink your sales price but you can not shrink your expense line with out careful management and investment in more productive equipment.

DR Tim has done a fine job of showing the producer ways to increase production and now we all need to look at ways of shrinking expenses if we want to weather the storm.

We have a new Super Walmart around the corner from our Feed store and they are selling Qts 17.98 1/2s at 31.98 in plastic from a VT producer. that's under us for now but after I build a SS for us in the coming week I will know what I have to charge to make a profit.

And Yes we are in it for a profit. If not than we will cut back and just supply the steady customers and family.

It has been my experience that one needs to have a quality product and reasonable prices to stay in business. Those that are cheap are usually at that price for only a couple of reasons: recoup of investment, need working capitol, clear out old stock or over supply. All good reasons but what driving factor caused this change will predict the future better than the selling price.

Word to the wise. Set your price and print off some coupons for customers to use. The value of the coupon can be tax deducted. We do this in the store all the time when we bring in new product and it is a LD,(Lazy Dog). Had a feed that didn't move for 6 weeks so the manufacturer gave us a book of coupons and it flew out the door at $5 off a bag. Now we have people wanting to buy at regular price.

Drop a book of coupons at a local coffee store for them to give to customers. Get them in the door and take care of them.

Ben

[Stanbridge]

Quebec Federation has just announced that Grade A bulk price will be 2,95$ CAD for 2017, which converts to about 2,23$ USD. This is what US producers will most likely get this year, assuming the exchange rate remains relatively unchanged.

[ennismaple]

From the press release dated Jan 4/17:

2017 prices will be as follows: Golden $2.95, Amber $2.94, Dark $2.85, and Very Dark $2.55. The price of syrups classified as Canada Processing Grade will remain $1.80. The premium for certified organic maple syrup has increased from $0.175/pound to $0.18/pound.

[pamelance]

I'm sorry I don't understand (I even read the Canadian news, Google, etc) but are these prices per ounce?

[DrTimPerkins]

I'm sorry I don't understand (I even read the Canadian news, Google, etc) but are these prices per ounce?

Bulk prices are in $ per pound of syrup, given that it is easier to weigh a drum than to figure out how many gallons are in it. The prices are usually quoted in Canadian $, since they are set in Quebec, then converted to U.S. $ based upon the current exchange rate (1 CAD$ = $0.77 US currently).

[WestfordSugarworks]

From the press release dated Jan 4/17:

2017 prices will be as follows: Golden $2.95, Amber $2.94, Dark $2.85, and Very Dark $2.55. The price of syrups classified as Canada Processing Grade will remain $1.80. The premium for certified organic maple syrup has increased from $0.175/pound to $0.18/pound.

I think we got $.20 per pound bonus last year for organic. Why is that? Why didn't our buyer just pay us (0.175)* exchange rate (0.75 roughly)= $0.13 bonus? Maybe this is a function of the difference between federation setting what they will pay their producers, and packers in the US directly responding to increasing organic demand so paying more for organic syrup. I'm also surprised they are only paying half a cent higher for organic when they have no organic reserves and one of the things mentioned as a current need for developing good market growth is a steady supply of organic syrup. Anyway, I hope we get 0.25 per pound higher for our organic this year.

[blissville maples]

Interesting, Bascoms paying about 2.00lb middle grades. 2.15 for fancy/light.......