How to handle property line

[Wanabe1972]

Hi I'm trying to see how people handle tapping on property lines. My fathers property and a neighbor s property was always determined by a stone wall roughly 1500 feet long going up the side of a mountain. On the neighbors side of the wall is a skid road that has been in use on and off for 30 years. The stone wall is not high but spread out maybe 2 feet to 10 feet wide in places. There is about 45 nice multiple tap trees on this line. Here's where the problem comes in the old timer who owned the property has passed away and then the land was bought by a horse stable llc. Within about 10 days of owning the land they plastered what looks like 500 posted signs facing my dad's land with most of the trees they used in this stone wall. I'm not going to spend the money to have this survey cause my dad's land has about 8 points to it in 32 acres. The far side of the land I already tap and unfortunately due to him heating with wood for 20 years there are not many maples inn the center of the land. Should I try to find someone to talk to about this or let it go. In my opinion they are claiming every bit of their land and then some.
Thanks Jeff

[madmapler]

They are probably just using the trees that make the most sense. Usually those trees have no timber value and would be pretty difficult to process as fire wood so why not tap them. They usually have barbed wire in them anyway.I have the same situation as you and the abutter is not a local guy and is funny about his land. I figured the amount of taps and offered him a little syrup and he was happy. The other way to look at it is this, If they were bold enough to staple signs to trees that are questionable without approaching you first then I would certainly go ahead and tap them. What could they say really? Let them know whos boss IMO. However, if you approach them first then you have already shown yourself to be a better neighbor. Unless they're really unreasonable, it'll probably work out well.

[DrTimPerkins]

Within about 10 days of owning the land they plastered what looks like 500 posted signs facing my dad's land with most of the trees they used in this stone wall.

Hi Jeff. Are the posted signs for trespassing or for hunting. If for hunting, it might be something as simple as their being concerned about somebody shooting their horses by mistake. They probably don't really know any better than you do where the line is....and probably less well than you do. They may have put them on those trees because with the skid road there isn't a lot of options close to the line. It can't hurt to go chat with them about it in a friendly way, and maybe bring along a quart of syrup. If they're still against tapping the trees, I'd suggest since you don't know exactly where the line is, that you offer to tap every other tree along the line. Or perhaps you can walk the wall and agree informally on where the line is, and therefore what you can tap and what you can't. Typically (note that I'm not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice), any portion of a tree is on your land is open to use....just don't go past the line with the drop. However at least here in Vermont, if you cut or damage a tree that isn't yours, you can be liable for damages (up to triple damages I think). In addition, if the tree should fall over on your side of the line, it is yours (but so are any damages the tree causes in falling). So if a neighbors tree happens to fall on your tractor, it is your problem to clean up and fix...UNLESS you happened to warn them (best in writing) that the tree (typically if it is unhealthy, diseased, leaning, etc.) poses a recognized danger to you or your property. If the neighbor ignores that warning and does nothing to correct the danger, then they would be liable if the tree were to fall and cause any damage. Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

[BreezyHill]

Jeff
We had a corporate neighbor's logger harvest 10 trees on our property and had to cross the stonewall that was the property line to get them. All that is aloud by laws is 3x the stump value; determined by trees remaining in the area. $2100 for 10 24" trees seemed low over a couple of generations but that is all that was allowed by law and the Forrester paid it and lost his job over it.

Speaking as a land owner that has had a horse shot and killed by bow and arrow, cattle injured by bows...one this year even, paralyzed from a spin shot. I am certain that they are posting the perimeter of their property. Yes it is on your side of the tree but that is one thing that DEC recommend to us back in the 1970's when we started having issues, the other is to have a second row of sign further in on the property. Hunting issues with especially night shooting is bad in this area. usually half dozen off our short road a season. So far this year 3 with one as far away as 1.5 hr drive. One of the last years I hunted I had to drop my middle son, age 5 12' feet down out of a tree stand and jump behind him as bullets were in the air and hitting the tree we were in.

I would go with a quart and introduce yourself and let them know your stance on hunting on your property. Horse owners are very attached to their livestock, they are family members to most. Your showing that you understand their position will likely provide for a long time, great relation.

Good Luck!

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

As much as you do not want to do it, a survey is the right way to find the line. Whether you come to a gentlemen's agreement, or not, with you neighbor is a whole other issue. I bought land from my father, I am distantly related to most of my neighbors. I now know where the lines are, and I have a gentleman's agreement with my cousins to the west, that we will go by the old line till they pass. From the survey, I found out that my property was much bigger than originally thought.

[jmayerl]

Speaking as a land owner that has had a horse shot and killed by bow and arrow, cattle injured by bows...one this year even, paralyzed from a spin shot. I am certain that they are posting the perimeter of their property.

You certainly have the stupidest neighbors on the planet!

[unc23win]

As much as you do not want to do it, a survey is the right way to find the line. Whether you come to a gentlemen's agreement, or not, with you neighbor is a whole other issue. I bought land from my father, I am distantly related to most of my neighbors. I now know where the lines are, and I have a gentleman's agreement with my cousins to the west, that we will go by the old line till they pass. From the survey, I found out that my property was much bigger than originally thought.

Too bad your neighbors wouldn't do the surveying that would be nice. Couldn't agree more get it surveyed and when its done mark it all good make sure all the pins are visible. We had to have our farm surveyed for some gas stuff and guess what it GREW I'm not kidding after 80+ years it grew about 50 acres on one line all in the woods was messed up. Now its all flagged with tape and all the pins are painted and I will be marking them.

Having animals getting shot is just ridiculous.

[maple flats]

Generally every other harvest size tree belongs to each side. However if you are not willing to get a survey an old stone wall that likely was originally the property line but is so beat up that it ranges from 2' to 10' wide (most stone walls were about 2' to 2.5' wide), but what ever width they were it didn't vary much, the location of that fence may well be questionable at best. This is always a big question when there has never been a survey. Even if 2 surveyors were to do a survey, one for each property owner, it is highly unlikely they would identify the line as being in the same place. Heck, my brother recently broke off a parcel from his main property just to have it on a separate deed because he was putting up several storage rental units and he just wanted them on a separate deed. After the surveyor had finished, given my brother a mylar map to file at the county seat, a neighbor came to say the surveyor had made an 87' error. My brother checked the situation and then contacted the surveyor. The surveyor had in fact set a corner stake about 87' onto the neighbor's land. He re-did the line, made a new mylar map and gave it to my brother, along with a bill for the new map. My brother stated he was not about to pay for the surveyor to correct his error. That was a few years ago and the surveyor never even sent another bill.
If 2 surveyors mark a line they almost never agree, but that was likely one of their biggest errors for a 4 acre parcel.
That being said, I suggest you try to resolve it by talking to the neighbor as suggested, with some syrup. Qt. minimum, but if there are lots of trees in question, 2 qts. might be mare appropriate.

[Ed R]

I would talk to the new owners and walk the line with them before this syrup season. Point out that you've been tapping these trees for some time and point out the old tap holes. I'm sure you will be able to work something out, it might cost you a quart or two.

[BreezyHill]

You certainly have the stupidest neighbors on the planet!

Hahaha, ya they come across the ST line and lose there minds...this year I took a guys pic and of the license plate at the request of the DEC Cop who told me to tell the guy to stay there. He took off and had several State Troopers at his house and the DEC cop about 5 minutes after he got home, to write him up for hunting with out a license, trespass, and loaded gun in the truck. " I didn't think you guys could cross state lines" The DEC and Trooper just laugh they told me. On the way back to the farm they caught a convicted felon coming out of the woods...probation was revoked on him.

Yup pretty stupid! Pretty cool to have a yard full of troopers and DEC laughing about how stupidly some people act. They all left with a bottle of syrup and now they cruse the road when they are in the area.

Only three houses on our road and two are ours...we all Dred hunting season. Last year at 11:35 somebody shoot a deer in his garden 100' from the front door. Somehow they didn't get caught.

Must be something in the water???

We should start a stupid hunting season thread.
lol

[Wanabe1972]

Thanks for the input, I have never tapped these trees as we cut firewood off from this area this year and cleaned it up to get a nice run for a mainline. I plan on setting this up next summer. I will try to find someone to talk to this week. A buddy of mine is a hay broker who have dealt with this crew before and said they were hard to deal with. I also have my fathers cousin who also borders this land and my fathers and is a surveyer and he says he knows where the line is. So im going to walk this with him so I have a little ammunition if needed. I would like to get this set up for the future as I also own 4 acres at the bottom of this run and could eventually get sap to a new sugar house if I so choose. I could get 300 to 350 taps on this in the future without much work.

[morningstarfarm]

Lol take a quart of syrup and go talk to the new neighbors...once they understand what you are doing out there I wi
Old be willing to bet that your plans to tap that area next summer will grow substantially onto their land for a few gallons a year.

[ADK_XJ]

We should start a stupid hunting season thread.
lol

one of my earliest memories as a kid was when some dip**** driving down our old dirt road back in VT about dusk from his boss' house up the way, whipping into our driveway, firing from INSIDE his truck and ACROSS our yard at a deer. My brother and I were playing in the yard with...his boss' daughter. Can't remember seeing my mom more mad.

He missed the deer and would assume lost his job but honestly can't remember how that story goes. Will have to ask Mom to tell that one at Xmas this year.

[ADK_XJ]

Thanks for the input, I have never tapped these trees as we cut firewood off from this area this year and cleaned it up to get a nice run for a mainline. I plan on setting this up next summer. I will try to find someone to talk to this week. A buddy of mine is a hay broker who have dealt with this crew before and said they were hard to deal with. I also have my fathers cousin who also borders this land and my fathers and is a surveyer and he says he knows where the line is. So im going to walk this with him so I have a little ammunition if needed. I would like to get this set up for the future as I also own 4 acres at the bottom of this run and could eventually get sap to a new sugar house if I so choose. I could get 300 to 350 taps on this in the future without much work.

So, back to your issue - I've found time and again being open and honest with neighbors is the best policy even if they are jerks. Tell them your concern, along with your understanding of their concerns. After that point, as another person said you really would have to default to a survey. Although, most counties have pretty good searchable aerial maps with property lines (as they know them) these days, couldn't hurt to bring a print out of that as a plan B (if it supports your claim).

People are weird about property lines. I had a neighbor run up into the woods after me to tell me he was pretty sure I was marking trees on someone else's land - not his, just somebody else. I walked him to my boundary pin but then said I was planning trees for maple syrup, "oh wow, cool - good luck!" Strange.

[Spanielslovesappin]

It strikes me as odd that an llc would have bought the land without a survey update in NY. perhaps they know something you don't know about the location of the actual line. Of course you need to talk to them in a friendly way and see who the winds are blowing. it may not be a big deal; if neither of you know the actual location of the line and it is an issue and neither of you are willing to pay for a survey then split the rubble field in half. they would have to have a new survey done of the line to prove that your tapping their trees. My friend (also in NYS) just went through line related drama with his new house.. his driveway is 2 feet onto his neighbors property; he then fenced it to keep his rat dogs from escaping. neighbor complained and his lawyer told him and the neighbor that NYS is not likely to get involved in Plus or minus 3' property line disputes thus it was a non issue. not sure how that would play out but if anything my knee jerk reaction is to defend your line; they have gone on the offensive (if you feel their judgement of the line is overly generous to themselves) about it so you might as well just tap the trees if you can't come to a peaceable agreement.

[Wanabe1972]

We had not gone to that part of his land in quite a while as we have been selective cutting my firewood for the last four years. We did notice last year that the flat spot up on top was way wet more than usual but did not investigate till this year and found the last people who logged it pushed through the berm in several spots to reroute the water into my father's land. He is a pretty unexcitable kind of guy but had a little fire in his step to get his backhoe and remedy that issue. At any rate I'm going to try and meet with someone this week. I guess it's just pissed me off a little that their road runs right up the stone wall and into it in many places and thought it would be alright to use our trees to post their land. Jeff

[ADK_XJ]

Just realized your profile says you're in Corinth - this county map viewer will be your friend: http://www.maphost.com/saratoga/

[Wanabe1972]

Yes thank you I use this website all the time to figure out who owns what. The other small bush I tap is a mess also and I needed permission from three people one of which doesn't even live in this state.