buying land

[Gone Maple]

I need some help or imput. I have ben making maple for over 10 years. I have come across a 58 acer maple lot with 3500+ taps I want to buy it but is it the right choice. I currently tap ,rent 2200 taps but want my own lot to build up. It is a perfect lot that would run into the maple house, with the potential of tapping rights to a 300 acer lot right above this one do it or not

[wiam]

I would have a herd tome turning away from sap that would run to my sugarhouse n

[Bucket Head]

I agree with William. Sap directly to the sugar house is a beautiful thing.

You might be very sorry if you decide to pass on it. One of those, "man, I should of bought that back when I had the chance" things.

[mellondome]

They print money every day.. but no one is making more land. If it is doable, I would do it.
But make sure of what you are buying. Do you live where maple rights are separately deeded? Does it include OGM rights?

[BreezyHill]

Sap in the sugar house is great. All of ours comes right in with the turning on of the vac pump. I have a great truck to haul sap IH 2000 gallon capacity with a 2" Hyd driven pump and it does around 300gpm thru the 2" suction line and has a 3" that I didn't use much. It wtill would take me an hour to go collect and come back and unload. That is an hour I don't have.

As MD said they don't make more land and to find land with tapable maples on it is even rare, then to have a good gravity setup is even better yet...IMO you would be crazy to pass this up.

You already know what you can make on maple so if the taxes, payments and the work all all in the black then jump on it.

Good Luck!

[Gone Maple]

Trust me it is hard to just turn away. It is a lot of money but it is what I wanted for a while. Just knowing there is a good chance on a lease on the property right above it with over 300 acers that look just like this one. All I am wating on is my loner and just set up a plan to take it futher.

[spud]

Trust me it is hard to just turn away. It is a lot of money but it is what I wanted for a while. Just knowing there is a good chance on a lease on the property right above it with over 300 acers that look just like this one. All I am wating on is my loner and just set up a plan to take it futher.

You need to define (a lot of money). What are we talking for the 58 acre lot with 3500 taps? You mention all the sap would run into the sugar house but is that your sugar house now or one that would need to be built? Just setting up the woods and buying a tank and vacuum with releaser will cost $40,000+. If you need to build a sugar house that will be a bunch more. You're going to need a bigger RO and a bigger evaporator unless you want to boil all night and work all day. You would have 5700 total taps and based on your 23 gallons of syrup made per hour you could be boiling 6-10+ hours a day. You not only will be buying the land and setting it up but you will have to spend money setting your sugar house up to handle the increase of sap. If it takes longer then 10 years to pay everything off then you're putting yourself into more trouble. After ten years all new tubing is needed and all the equipment in the sugar house will need to be replaced. Sugaring can be a money pit and I would hate to see you go from loving sugaring to hating it because you put yourself into such debt. If a person just sugars to pay their sugaring bill then what is the point of sugaring? I am not saying this would be you're case but sit down and do the math and make sure this is right for you and your family. Best of luck.

Spud

[markcasper]

After ten years all new tubing is needed and all the equipment in the sugar house will need to be replaced. Sugaring can be a money pit and I would hate to see you go from loving sugaring to hating it because you put yourself into such debt.

Spud

It will be a money pit if you replace everything in 10 years. If everything needs to be replaced at 10 years, then I would get a different manager. I end up replacing things because of expansion, not wearing them out. You cannot tell me that welded evaporator pans, ss barrels and ss tanks wear out in 10 years. If thats the case, then I better give it up because I'd be broke. IMO

[spud]

It will be a money pit if you replace everything in 10 years. If everything needs to be replaced at 10 years, then I would get a different manager. I end up replacing things because of expansion, not wearing them out. You cannot tell me that welded evaporator pans, ss barrels and ss tanks wear out in 10 years. If thats the case, then I better give it up because I'd be broke. IMO

Mark- I should have worded it a bit different when I said 10 years. The trend in sugaring is to always have shinny new equipment in the sugar house. I am not saying that everyone follows this trend but the vast majority of sugar makers do. I know countless sugar makers in my area and NONE of them have an RO or Evaporator older then 10 years. These people follow the trend that MOST sugar makers do. Tubing should be replaced every 10 years if you're hoping for max GPT. After the sugaring season dealers have to go pick up equipment that was sold on credit. The sugar maker has high hopes of a great season but that does not always happen. My advise to GoneMaple is just to really think out every aspect before buying a very expensive piece of property.

Spud

[Ed R]

For me I would factor in all the other intangible factors before buying a piece of property. What other recreational opportunities could this open up like hunting/fishing/snowmobiling. Is their any other timber value other than maple?

[markcasper]

The last 10 years economically things were pretty good in maple to be able to keep updating. The next 10 will be different. Maple is following the trend of every other commodity though it seems. I agree tubing should be on a 10 year - 15 year max replacement. Not upset about what you said Spud, just looi\king at it in ny operation. As for land, I would buy it. Its one of the safest and best places to invest. I wouldn't bat an eye going into debt within in reason to acquire it. IMO

[Gone Maple]

Ok, this is what my idea is to make you all have a better idea on what I'm planing to do to help me with your ideas
The land is 85000 for a 30 year loan with3500 + taps on it and has not ben logged in over 50 years with nice timer on it.
I would do a 7 year loan for sugar house and all the equipment.
So for that I want to do 55000-sugar house 15000, tubing 20000, tanks pump and releaser 20000.
The tanks and sugar house and pump is good for a long time so I won't have to buy eather of them for a while.the land has good timber on it to log for a back up.and I already make 650 gallons of syrup right now and I have uped my RO to a 1200 with 2 new membranes for it so my evap and ro should run togather. So I think I can make this all work for 140000.

[n8hutch]

I guess I would try to figure out my income potential first & foremost. If you made 1250, gallons of syrup and year that would be about 30k at today's bulk prices, then you'll have to figure out your annual expenses, subtract your mortgages and see what's left. You may decide it's not worth the extra effort. It could be the best thing you will ever do.only you can decide.

I am not sure how easy it is to get financing for tubing, I know the hard parts "stainless" evaps,tanks etc tend to be easier to get money for.

Good luck to you.

[jmayerl]

Gosh I wish land was only $1500/acre here. Going rate is 2-3 times that here

[steam maker]

I have used the usda farm service for equipment " everything including tubing" and buisness lease consultants " think thats the name" for my ro and tubing . Buiness lease is a equipment lease program, pay monthly then one final 10 percent of lease payment at end. Usda is a 7 yr loan 1 payment per yr low intrest

[steam maker]

And despite the pros and cons from people it all comes down to wether or not u want it !!! Never bad to own land . Me and wife bought 76 acres mainly cause it abutted my parents , with hopes to build a house but mainly cause i wanted it and didnt wanna look out window of sugarhouse and see people out there. And hey if the sugaring thing dont work u could have obama pay u and put up a syrian refugee camp or even worse maybe crown will buy it from u !!!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😩😂😂😩😂😂😂😂

[buckeye gold]

If this property has not been logged in 50 years it probably needs some cutting done just to manage the woods and cull some trees. Logging can generate some cash, but if your planning on logging bring that up with your lender, as timber value is equity/collateral to them. Chose your loggers wisely though and have a forester help you with a management plan. I would guess you could generate $500.00 an acre from logging and still manage for Maple. However, I'm not familiar with the species structure of your area and what timber you'd be cutting and it's value. I cut my sugar bush and made a $1000.00 and acre and only cut a half dozen Maples, but if your predominately maple that may not work well. On that note red and silver maples do not bring high dollar for their logs, but sugar maples do. Loggers can also put you in access roads. Decide this when you buy, because you'll want to log before putting up tubing. Logging will also clutter up your woods with tops and make running tubing harder. The up side is tons of free firewood. The main thing is you have to choose your loggers very, very, very carefully or they will do more damage than good. Kind of like choosing a teenage boy to date your only daughter, you know how they think and it's not like you.

My outside thoughts are buy the land and even if you can't get a syrup operation set up right away it will be a good investment. The money is in the bank with land. I had a chance to buy 57 acres joining my property about 20 years ago for a very reasonable price and was to tight to borrow the money and have payments. Every time I walk my back boundary I mentally kick myself now. It is easily worth four times what it would have cost me then, now. even paying interest it would have made me money. If you can make the payments buy it! worry about getting the Maple set up later.

Here is a plan I would consider:

Buy land at best deal from a bank or mortgage company

If lender allows, within first year to 18 months cut timber for cash and bush management

Next two years, cut firewood and develop roads tubing lanes, collection sites and whatever else. You can also start tapping with temporary set ups to add to existing operation

Fourth year secure construction/business loans through USDA and initiate start up of your Maple operation (this way a financial crash and burn of your maple business may still save you the land)

I know that you probably want to be up and running sooner, but I have found that most people do a better job if they take the time and follow a plan. Do it right once.

[markcasper]

And hey if the sugaring thing dont work u could have obama pay u and put up a syrian refugee camp


Or better yet, you could get them to work in your sugarwoods and they can get paid by sucking off the American citizens. Since the floodgates seem to be open for any kind of illegal critter, it wouldn't hurt to try unless they blow us sky high first.

[Spanielslovesappin]

I am with Buckeye gold and others in every way there not making more land but also don't become a slave to tapping to make your payments. that said don't let grass grow under your feet on this decision.

Our farm could have been almost three times bigger if my Grandpa had pulled the trigger in 1960 instead of 1961. Then he got mad at the power company in the 70's and sold a chunk because they did not want him crossing there property. They are not making more land, at 1500 an acre and no logging for 50 years your actual cost to buy the land is like way lower once you figure in the timber you will remove to promote the sugarbush. For sure use a forester if your going to log... if your really hard up about it hire a forester to walk the woods with you now and est. a conservative sugar driven timber sale so you really know where you will land on the land cost.