Generator to run hole operation

[calvertbrothers]

I'm looking to start over new with my hole operation. I plan on building new shanty and everything in it. Financing about 75% of it and was wondering where to look to find a generator that can run everything like RO, vacuum pump ,arch, lights in shanty, filter press. I only have one tractor so to have PTO generator is out of the option. Im moving the shanty and is to far for me to run electric to it. If anyone knows about this kind for stuff info would be great. Also I'm trying to stay away from gas powered everything just want on until to do it all.

[Zucker Lager]

Check out the Generac line they have a bunch that would fit your need and will be happy to help you with info. I have a small one for my whole house needs and it works great. Good luck on your build Jay

[BreezyHill]

I have two gen sets...45KW gas or LP and 100kw diesel to run our feed mill. The 100kw runs a pellet mill and all of the cooling tower motors.

45kw was from a sealed bid and the 100kw is Army surplus by way of a YMCA. You can find good units on Craigslist, Ebay, etc. You need to calculate all of your power needs in amps off of the motor tags or you can use watts. 1 Hp is equal to 750 watts. Add them together and multiply my 1.25 for surge at startup and you have your KW rating.

[mellondome]

You need to know what your peak usage will be. The r/o and vac will be the biggest consumers. Add up all the electricial requirements. Then look for a generator that is rated for 25% more. Look online for sales and deals. Ebay.. craigslist.. local construction companies..
You may be able to rent/lease one for the season.

[unc23win]

I'm looking to start over new with my hole operation. I plan on building new shanty and everything in it. Financing about 75% of it and was wondering where to look to find a generator that can run everything like RO, vacuum pump ,arch, lights in shanty, filter press. I only have one tractor so to have PTO generator is out of the option. Im moving the shanty and is to far for me to run electric to it. If anyone knows about this kind for stuff info would be great. Also I'm trying to stay away from gas powered everything just want on until to do it all.

I know you said it is too far to run electric, but how far is it? I know it can be expensive, but maybe it isn't too far have you talked to the electric company? I am not saying that generator wouldn't work, but I would look into all options first. For instance my electric co now offers pole packages where they meter and box the pole and you own it. From the pole box you can do whatever you want run whatever wire however you want. Works well for me and other sugarmakers in my area.

[calvertbrothers]

I know you said it is too far to run electric, but how far is it? I know it can be expensive, but maybe it isn't too far have you talked to the electric company? I am not saying that generator wouldn't work, but I would look into all options first. For instance my electric co now offers pole packages where they meter and box the pole and you own it. From the pole box you can do whatever you want run whatever wire however you want. Works well for me and other sugarmakers in my area.
From road to shanty would be atleast 1/4 mile but from my mother's house to shanty would be and my mother's house is is about 1700 feet of the road.

[Spanielslovesappin]

So how far do you have to run power?

A Maple sized Generator will not be cheap to buy maintain and fuel. 1800Ft/ 1/4 mile of high voltage service may even be cheaper. I am running buried HV 1800 Feet for a house/the sugar bush right now; it is for sure less expensive than a generator.

[unc23win]

Yea I would still look into running the electric if it were me. Once you calculate how much power you need. You can calculate with online calculators the voltage drop and pick a wire that will work. What's the name of that Electric depot type store in the Hornell area Mainards or something like that they have great prices on wire. The thing is you could run wire once and be done. Maybe the initial cost is more, but there is no additional cost. If you go with a generator you have to fuel it and make sure that you have access to fuel it in the winter if needed. I am not saying a generator is bad I know some who use them if it were me I would run wire 1/4 mile and be done with it.

[calvertbrothers]

So how far do you have to run power?

A Maple sized Generator will not be cheap to buy maintain and fuel. 1800Ft/ 1/4 mile of high voltage service may even be cheaper. I am running buried HV 1800 Feet for a house/the sugar bush right now; it is for sure less expensive than a generator.
I was going to go that route but my friend that's an electrician said it would cost more for me to run wire and get a service. But your right maintenance would be alot higher and best chance for failure.

[BreezyHill]

Just to let you know of your options. There are loads of good deals out there. My 45KW gen set was $376.10 on a sealed bid. the 100 KW that has a cat 333 diesel motor was $1200. The 45 has been running our feed mill for the last 22 years or more and will be getting a valve cover gasket the end of the month when my son is back from college, over the years it has only gotten oil changes and one water pump. Change the oil ever 100 hrs and the filter. She burns about 5 gallons per hour but she is running at 70% capacity. When the power goes off and she powers the houses (2) she only burns about 1.5 gallons all day long. She is a little better than book on fuel but I changed her to electronic ignition from points and condensers. They needed changing every year and plugs twice a year, but with electronic plugs 1x/ year to keep fuel economy up.

Grid quoted me $60K to get three phase to our mill. The guy quoting the job said buy a diesel generator way cheaper and no power outages. It is a great thing to be running when our area got hit by the ice storm, Lee Irene, etc.

Ben

[BreezyHill]

So lets get down to the nuts and bolts. How many Hp is your RO, fan(s) on the arch, Vac pump motor Hp, how many lights and wattage, motor on the press?

Mine: 6 hp on the RO = 6 x 750 = 4500
vac is 5 hp = 5x750 watts = 3750
steam fan = 1 hp 750
releaser pump 1/2 hp 375
lights 14 x 23 watts= 322
arch fan is 1/2 hp 375
filter press is 1/2 hp 375

Total of 10447

X 1.25 for surge is 13Kw generator.

I am sure your RO is not as old as mine so you will be under the 10 kw generator. On c List I found a 10Kw for $3000 with 0 hours on it. $750 for a pto 15Kw...get a for d 8 or 9N and have a second tractor and a generator.

Do out the math on the watts and see what you need there are loads of options. You could even run 2 small gens and have the RO and lights on #1 and the vac pump on #2. When the bush freezes you shut down one gen.

Good Luck!

[calvertbrothers]

So lets get down to the nuts and bolts. How many Hp is your RO, fan(s) on the arch, Vac pump motor Hp, how many lights and wattage, motor on the press?

Mine: 6 hp on the RO = 6 x 750 = 4500
vac is 5 hp = 5x750 watts = 3750
steam fan = 1 hp 750
releaser pump 1/2 hp 375
lights 14 x 23 watts= 322
arch fan is 1/2 hp 375
filter press is 1/2 hp 375

Total of 10447

X 1.25 for surge is 13Kw generator.

I am sure your RO is not as old as mine so you will be under the 10 kw generator. On c List I found a 10Kw for $3000 with 0 hours on it. $750 for a pto 15Kw...get a for d 8 or 9N and have a second tractor and a generator.

Do out the math on the watts and see what you need there are loads of options. You could even run 2 small gens and have the RO and lights on #1 and the vac pump on #2. When the bush freezes you shut down one gen.

Good Luck!
My set up is close to yours I don't have the ro though buying new one my old ro was on 2 hp. Sizing a generator do u need to be in the ball park of the kw or can I shoot for a big one like a 50kw? I have found alot of them on CL

[mellondome]

You can always go big. But you will use more fuel. Wire up everything the same as you would if you had utility power. Then the switch to utility will be easier, as will hooking up the generator.
If looking big, make sure you know how much fuel you are gong to use. And how you are getting that fuel to the generator.

[n8hutch]

I like propane generators myself, alot Less maintenance. Whatever you get if It's not Hardwired into your panel you don't have to have an annual ground fault test. So I would suggest hooking it up with a plug & socket type connection.

[BreezyHill]

My set up is close to yours I don't have the ro though buying new one my old ro was on 2 hp. Sizing a generator do u need to be in the ball park of the kw or can I shoot for a big one like a 50kw? I have found alot of them on CL

Bigger is fine...you will just not burn as much fuel per hour with less than max load. My book chats 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, & full load. Huge difference from 1/2 to full load in gallons per hour. For our operation it was the best thing ever. Our farm and the feed mill is hooked thru the same meter as the house so we don't pay commercial rate...residential is much less from National Grid. We went from nearly $1000 per month to about $175 by adding the generator and I think it was around $300 in gas per month.

[Woodsrover]

If you can get away with 10k+ for what you need take a look at the surplus MEP003a. They're rated at 10k at 80% and 5000 feet of elevation. They can do 3-phase if needed too. They'll run for months at a time at 110% load and at your elevation I'd expect output to be an easy 14k. They're diesel and at full load burn about 1 gallon a hour. The government dumped the MEP002a and MEP003a units at auction over the past few years and they're for sale all over the place. There are even some "reset" units around which means they were rebuilt by the government and have almost no hours on them. They're rock-sold reliable and will last you for years. Lots of information about them on the web and lots of parts available for them should you need something. Look around Craigslist in your area.

I have two MEP002a units out behind my barn that are wired to the house. I only need to run one but a second came along cheap so I had to snag it. Besides, one is none, two is one. One has a few hundred hours on it, the other has 8 hours on it. I also have a 12k PTO unit but I don't like to run that when I'm not around. It's been pretty good lately but we used to loose power a lot and for days at a time. Once I was out for 9 days, once 11.

12166

[maple flats]

Back before I had grid power, I had a small solar system that was supplemented by a genny. I used a 50A welder plug connection but that was not great. It seemed the connection was not good enough to play well with my inverter in the solar system. After some research I ended up getting a 60A Appleton Connector and hard wired that to the genny. That solved the connection issues. An Appleton connector is simply a far superior electrical connection compared to the typical 30A or 50A plug in (dryer or welder type plug).
I also suggest you use a contact grease for an even better contact. If you need info on that, PM me and I can get the best product name, I have it at my sugarhouse.
If there is any way you can run power over the 1700', that will be your best choice. You will want a step up transformer, then the proper gauge conductors and then an adjustable step down transformer. If you choose that route, you can tell me what voltage you will step up to and I will run the calculations on voltage drop to determine the conductor size needed, then with the adjustable step down you will be able to have the best voltage for what you will need to run. Be cure to calculate your amperage needs properly, do not short change it.
I now have grid power with 6.32 KW of solar, you never appreciate what a bargain the grid is until you need to make your own.

[BreezyHill]

Flats, Don't for get how convenient grid power is either...it really is nice to not have to change oil and filters in the dead of winter at 24 below 0, on a genset. But they are great to have when the grid goes down the next day at only 18 below. Warm house, happy wife...me too.

So tell me how do you like your solar system? I talked to one outfit about our usage and system needs and well I almost had a heart attack when he told me a price. Then we discussed only for the single phase motors and the houses and it was not as bad. And why don't they want to put panels on a corrugated roof?

Ben

[unc23win]

Flats, Don't for get how convenient grid power is either...it really is nice to not have to change oil and filters in the dead of winter at 24 below 0, on a genset. But they are great to have when the grid goes down the next day at only 18 below. Warm house, happy wife...me too.Ben

Gee Ben doesn't sound like your so gung ho generator anymore. Makes it sort of confusing for the guy trying to decide between grid or generator doesn't it. I'll stick with my first answer and add that I agree with Dave if there is any way you can run power its your best choice.

[calvertbrothers]

So far it looking like a generator will run my operation. Once I get caught up with loans then I'll switch to grid

[BreezyHill]

Gee Ben doesn't sound like your so gung ho generator anymore. Makes it sort of confusing for the guy trying to decide between grid or generator doesn't it. I'll stick with my first answer and add that I agree with Dave if there is any way you can run power its your best choice.

Jared, I am a person that forwards all pertinate information. Sorry to confuse you.

There is a certain convence to walking to a switch and having it work; but don't mistake that as a point against a genset.

IMO every producer should have a way to operate their production facility in the event that the grid goes down. This is simply good management and planning. I do not know of away to convey the frustration of having everything good to go but you cant because of no power coming out of the transformer. This happened to me prior to having a genset. Total frustration.

From a planning stand point a maple producer will have changed the oil on the unit in the fall when it is warm, and be ready for use during the winter and in the sap season.

I don't have that option and in a total sharing mind set, It really does suck changing the oil every few weeks on a genset, but it is what I have to do to run my operation.

Personnally I don't anticipate ever switching to grid for 3 phase power; I would buy another genset in a heart beat. But if solar is a quality alternative then I would use it to supplement my power. Personnaly, I am looking at hydro since we have a brook that is calculated to supply the farm during spring thaw and supplement much of the rest of the year. But I still would like to have a lesson on solar if Flats would.

[unc23win]

Jared, I am a person that forwards all pertinate information. Sorry to confuse you. Personnally I don't anticipate ever switching to grid for 3 phase power; I would buy another genset in a heart beat.

Do you use 3 phase for your maple operation? Because if you don't it is not Pertinate Information this is a Maple Forum not Ben's Blog.

[BreezyHill]

Jared,
I guess you didn't know that you can get single phase power off of a three phase generator. Since fewer people are interested in 3 ph the price of these units is less.

Rather harsh redirect don't you think.

[maple flats]

Ben, I paid cash up front for all my solar. First I started with just 2 panels of 150 watts ea., a cheap PWM charge controller (CC), the wrong inverter (later) and 4 solar batteries @ 6V ea.
I installed that all myself, but failed to educate myself first. Thus I made lots of mistakes. I was off grid and connected everything myself. It was enough to get me interested in more. In the meantime I had educated myself a little and my course changed. First the panels were not UL and were not available when I wanted to get 2 more the next year. At that time, I set those aside and got 4 UL panels at 185 watts ea. My first 2 had been mounted to a 2x4 frame. For the new ones I bought official ground mount racking. My first inverter was 240 watts, but could not be split into 2 120V circuits, it seemed that inverter was just designed to run a 220-230-240V motor, but it was very inefficient too (wrong type). I bought a new inverter that was real good, It was designed to be either grid tied or off grid (and I still use that one). The new one is a pure sind wave inverter meaning it has the same wave configuration as grid power, the old was a modified wave which is poor at best. Then, since I needed 120V power I got a transformer designed to step up or down from 100V to 110V to 200V and 230V, any input close to those could be transformed to any other output.
My first charge controller was an inefficient PWM, pulse width modulated controller, my new one was a top rated MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controller. Each of the originals were low efficiency, but were replaced just 1 yr. later with high efficiency units. The PWM CC was less than 50% efficient, the MPPT was 95-97% efficient. The 1st inverter was about 60% efficient, but then I had to transform the power so I lost about 10% more, my new inverter is 96-97% efficient. After just 5 weeks I decided I needed 4 more batteries and added them even though you should only use batteries that are the same age. I still have the original 4 + 4 more batteries. They are rated at 7 yrs and they are 7 yrs old. They still work good but may not last much longer. The next year I added 4 more of the same 185 watt panels. Those 8 are my off grid back up, but when my batteries need replacing I plan to roughly triple my AH rating and want to get 10 yr batteries instead of 7 yr.
Then in 2012 I wanted to add 8 more panels but discovered that size was no longer available. Then I got an installer who put up 22 panels at 220 watts each, added a grid only inverter and we put in grid power. Since we then went grid tied, it came with percs. We qualified for NYCERDA, a new yorn program that paid $3.00/watt up front. We also got State and Federal tax credits that could be carried forward until 2016 tax year. We have used most of that but not all, after this yr and next we should use all of those. The tax credits can only be used to pay income tax liability, for example if you owe $2000 in state income tax, $200 can be used to pay it, and everything that was withheld from your pay, or you paid in estimated taxes is refunded, the same with federal taxes. These in all covered about 60-65% of the solar cost, after (an if) we use the tax credits all up before they sunset.
My solar was even more expensive than it had to be because I jumped in without any knowledge beforehand.
I now have my sugarhouse power all supplied by the solar each month and any excess is credited to my home electric bill. If I keep the snow off my panels I never get a bill for the sugarhouse, even in maple season, but last Feb. I failed to keep them clear and I had to pay about $8.00.
If anyone is thinking solar, it is far better if your sugarhouse and home are all on one meter. What I have a hard time with is having to pay the utility $22.93 each month to sent them power, but that is what they charge,m before they credit the excess to my home meter.
When I put in grid and got the solar I had to upsize my panel box. I was putting in a 200A service and had enough solar that could at peak generate over 26A it forced me to use a larger box. You are allowed to exceed the rating by 10% or 20A in my case. I had to get a 225 A panel box with a 200A main breaker.

[unc23win]

Jared,
I guess you didn't know that you can get single phase power off of a three phase generator. Since fewer people are interested in 3 ph the price of these units is less.

Rather harsh redirect don't you think.

That's not quite what you said in your previous post, you said the power company wanted 60K to install 3 phase so you went with a generator. Which implies you needed 3 phase power. Being that this is Maple Trader I was curious to know if you ran your maple operation on 3 phase.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

The last large generator I installed was a 50KW it cost 21,000+change for delivery to door step. SB Chevy running on propane, full 200A. It needed a 1000 gal. tank to run. think the 21K was with a auto tranfer switch

Thads operation is all three phase, motors are cheaper than single phase unless you buy H2O than they are more.