Crown again

[mountainvan]

Just read in AAA New York magazine that crown murple once again claims to be the biggest in North America with 50,000 taps. Guess journalists believe everything they are told.

[220 maple]

Maybe they are now the biggest in New York State, We have one producer in WV at this point with 20000 taps, our largest he could put in another 60000 plus that would all run into his Sugarhouse!

Mark 220 Maple

[mountainvan]

Yeah, maybe, but New York is a tad smaller than North America. Just irritates me the bs they spew. Kinda wish wall st and Madison ave would stay in NYC.

[southfork]

Crown Maple will tap many many more than 50,000 taps in 2016. They also tap in Vermont as well as New York, very high quality operation.

[southfork]

I have personally visited Madava, as well as the new install CDL is supplying for Crown in Vermont. I can tell you it is state of the art and very, very large. Well over 150,000 taps should eventually flow in Vermont alone, the New York operation is their "small" unit.

The Wall Street comment is unnecessary, many in the maple industry are excited that Crown is expanding the market beyond what they can supply. Crown's market creation benefits all producers, as well as manufacturers, packers and bulk buyers. I would urge each one of you to visit Crown's current Madava operation in the Hudson Valley. I am glad that money is moving from Wall Street to help fund those of us in the maple industry. Market creation is important to producers... and a high quality image and product drives consumer acceptance and consumption.

[mountainvan]

I'm tired of their deceptive marketing. Claiming their syrup is higher in nutrients than any other, then changing to saving "the essence", and now the biggest. I call bollocks.

[southfork]

I have no knowledge of their actual nutrients, the essence, or their relative size. None of it matters to me as a producer. I do know that some of the very best professionals in the maple industry provide regular consultation and hold Crown's efforts in high regard. Mike Bennett does some of their current installs and without question he is in a league with the best. Additionally, there are many excellent producers who respect and work with Crown. I am sure there are others who view them as competition, that happens in any industry.

Having said that, there are many progressive and high quality maple producers. It is very important that all of us move from the era of lead, rust, chemicals, bug water, and ash contaminated table fare being offered to the general public. The maple industry is progressing in a very positive direction. I do think Crown's public relations and overall marketing efforts have helped project the entire maple industry in a positive light. As a producer myself, I feel their marketing efforts help me, far more than their competition hurts me.

[RustyBuckets]

Thanks Southfork but I do not consume alcohol.

[southfork]

Have another one, it is Happy Hour some place!

[RustyBuckets]

Im bowing out of this some peoples minds will never take the time to listen to others opinions.

[southfork]

To be honest, the finances of Crown Maple and other producers are none of my business.

Government plans are out there to expand and maintain agriculture and jobs, everyone can partake in one way or another. What did you do?

[RustyBuckets]

Thanks for the laughs

[southfork]

I bet whomever owns Crown paid more taxes than you did, and created more jobs ! By the way, I am a taxpayer too and I did not get it all back like many did. Consider your dilemma when you vote this time around.

This has no relevancy to the original post, we should stick to the topic please.

[RustyBuckets]

Have a great season guys..

[southfork]

This has nothing to do with the original post and Maple Trader.

Are you saying a law was broken? If so file a complaint? I think most likely someone did their homework, followed the law, and the guidelines set forth by the State of New York. Probably some real smart individual seldom seen in the maple industry. I cannot help you with that and has nothing to do with maple quality, marketing, and the maple industry as a whole. Political complaints do not belong on this forum IMO. My Obama phone is ringing, have to run for now.

[Spanielslovesappin]

South Forks, you seem to be the one out of line.

1. this does have to do with the original post.
2. it is absolutely related to maple
3. this hobby, industry, way of life has been brought to the point where complete outsiders who have never had anything to do with syrup both big and small are diving in and falling in love because of the generational work of countless extremely intelligent and hard working individuals.
4. if ag is at all political (i.e. government is at all involved in anything to do with ag) then it is potentially political.

You just don't agree with Rustybucket and are free to engage in spirited civil debate!

... which is what makes America great!

Unfounded personal attacks like "Have another one, its happy hour someplace" is what has nothing to do with the original post and does not belong on the trader...

[RustyBuckets]

However I do agree with the OP.

[southfork]

Agriculture attracts producers at all levels. Personal income is not a deciding factor, and never has been.

In this instance, producers with more available financing tap more trees, hire more labor, and produce more syrup. In the beef cattle world, producers with more resources buy more land, own more cattle, hire more labor, and feed more people. I do not have an issue with any of this, why do others? Is it simple jealousy? The answer is yes.

Back to Crown. You can ask any professional in the maple industry and there is no question they are producing an excellent product, employing or contracting many others in the maple industry, and creating a market for maple products.
What I hear is a lot of jealousy from producers who do not like the changing face of agriculture. I am not intimidated by it and am grateful that resourceful companies such as Crown promote maple for all of us.

Unlike many of you I have personally toured Crown and their operation, I do not fire off from the hip. And yes, the poster who stated they have 20,000 taps max is either pitifully uninformed, or enjoying Happy Hour.

[maple flats]

My impression was that Crown is funded by a Wall Street investment firm, if that is true, we should all be glad. It is also very likely Crown has gotten some grants, have you applied for any grants? Personally, I have not because I choose to avoid all the extra paper work, but that is my choice. Those who complain may have also made the same choice. New grant opportunities are opened every year, along with low interest loans, if you choose as I do not to apply, that is your choice.
I just hope that this venture sticks to the statement that they will not be flooding the market with maple syrup, but will instead focus on "new" value added products. If they stay with that it will help the entire industry, the 50 tap producer who only sells to a few friends and the "large producer" with 10,000 taps on up to whatever the truly huge ones are now at and will be at in the near future. We are all free to grow (except Quebec) as we want, maybe those complaining should go after the big bucks and grow like Crown, if one wall street firm is making money at it, others will chime in too. Maybe you can get Warren Buffet to bankroll you, I hear he has enough, even enough to "buy a boat and a truck to pull it"!

[PATheron]

Big business runs the country. Politicians are for sale and whoever has the most money runs the show. I think I heard on the republican side this year there is going to be a billion dollars spent by a few people to get there guy elected. Its the same for both partys. Its been that way the entire existence of this county. I guess it works pretty good just seems wrong somehow. We have a pretty good standard of living compared to rest of world. Theron

[southfork]

Some in this thread keep going back to big business verses little business, as if size matters.

All of us, regardless of size ( I have 5,000 modern taps on vacuum, was a bucket operation for 15 years) need to strive to keep a high quality product in the consumer markets. I toured Crown on multiple occasions simply to learn about their sap processing and product quality. Transitioning from a bucket operation, and to comply with new government regulations, I visited Crown to learn modern technology and improve my own syrup quality, nothing more. There are many very high quality producers in New York, the Midwest, and other places. I have visited some of their operations as well.
Crown and other high quality operations are available on maple tours and I urge all who "fire off" to visit before you comment.

[RustyBuckets]

My impression was that Crown is funded by a Wall Street investment firm, if that is true, we should all be glad. It is also very likely Crown has gotten some grants, have you applied for any grants? Personally, I have not because I choose to avoid all the extra paper work, but that is my choice. Those who complain may have also made the same choice. New grant opportunities are opened every year, along with low interest loans, if you choose as I do not to apply, that is your choice.
I just hope that this venture sticks to the statement that they will not be flooding the market with maple syrup, but will instead focus on "new" value added products. If they stay with that it will help the entire industry, the 50 tap producer who only sells to a few friends and the "large producer" with 10,000 taps on up to whatever the truly huge ones are now at and will be at in the near future. We are all free to grow (except Quebec) as we want, maybe those complaining should go after the big bucks and grow like Crown, if one wall street firm is making money at it, others will chime in too. Maybe you can get Warren Buffet to bankroll you, I hear he has enough, even enough to "buy a boat and a truck to pull it"!

That is not Crowns operation you are thinking of using the taps for value added products.

[RustyBuckets]

This topic seems to pop up couple times a year. Its just dissapointing that a company so green to the industry can make such bold claims and make it look to consumers every body elses syrup is inferior.

[southfork]

Rusty, I too have been a part of the maple, beef and honey industry my entire life, dad and grandpa and my wife's grandpa before me. I have seen the changes in agriculture of which maple is but one entity. In my wife's family were the three pan syrup systems in the open air with ladles moving the sap to finish a product suitable for the day and time. Prior to that were the settlers who built the rock walls all over New England and stoked the fire under their kettles. But advancements in agriculture changed their lives as well, in fact many ceased to exist as farmers and ranchers. Today, less than 1% of society is relying on farming and ranching. Changes and advancements in agriculture are ongoing, whether we like it or not. Look at the dairy industry. There is a reason their milk tanks, cans and used DeLaval's are now being utilized in the maple industry. Times have changed for milk producers as well. Their red barns crumble while VC money buys Holsteins. I have heard that Bruce is no longer accepting syrup in milk cans, another testament to how times are changing. Dairy's are becoming much larger, just as are the feedlots, pulse crop producers, grain farmers, and beef cattle ranches. It takes substantle money to compete and comply with regulations and litigation these days. Consumers are responsible for this, they desire and demand government oversight of almost every agriculture producer putting a product for resale into the public food chain. That new day has now dawned on the maple industry. Was maples addition to the farm bill a good or bad thing?

I realize Crown, Sweet Tree and perhaps others are being funded with money made elsewhere, that is true of the entire agriculture industry. The evolution is driven by consumers. In maple, that trend will continue just as it has in the rest of agriculture, we must adapt. " Organic" was not invented by the maple industry, we all know it is largely a farce. But, like it or not, it is " value added ". The only difference between my current "organic" sugarbush and my past "non-organic" sugarbush is paperwork and fees, more costs of which will pass to the consumer. Consumers created the demand and pay for wholesomeness, whether real, or perceived. Wealthy producers and new comers have nothing to do with this change, they are merely able to afford to produce what consumers, politicians and lawyers demand.

Crown's promotions which I have read seem to promote their high standards, not point out my low standards of yesteryear. I know the consumers are becoming educated and will be looking, therefore I am personally trying to improve my product, to do the right thing. I did make syrup the old way, straining moths and spiders from the sap before it went into the evaporator feed.... but probably not before they purged themselves of excrement. I made great syrup, but I have to admit I was boiling bug water. Still a great product in my opinion, but consumers today will not understand.

[southfork]

As far as market creation here are my thoughts.

Crown, Sweet Tree and other well funded producers do promote the acceptance of maple products. It takes substantial financing to promote beyond Facebook. Who else can get real maple sugar on the tables of fine restaurants where cane sugar ruled for over 50 years? Splenda too has been on that same table for many years. Pure maple sugar in front of a diners taste buds is market creation.

Most producers, including me, have no PR team or financing to get maple products discussed in National publications and syndicates. Crown has achieved that and it benefits all of us in the maple industry. Crown also has a great show room of which thousands of visitors come per year. The atmosphere promotes the maple industry beyond what Crown supplies.

Crown and now Sweet Tree have promoted maple use in drink formulations. It all helps.

I welcome the new comers. Hopefully they will help create a demand for my product, maybe even buy my product. One thing for certain, agriculture is changing. I am either going to change with it, or fade away and leave my stone wall as remembrance.

[PATheron]

I hope that all this new market creation is true. If it is I guess that could be helpful. My better judgement tells me that this outfit is part of the government picking winners and losers with other peoples money. If they put in like a million taps its hard for me to believe its all going in pint jars. I would sooner bet a lot of it will have to go in the bulk market and help syrup to go back down to 1.80 a pound. If a small syrup producer is paying taxes and the money goes to the government and then goes to this big outfit and it lowers the prices from too much supply that doesn't sound like a great thing to me. If they are bs'ing about their tap count and their syrup Im not too confident about all this market creation. Guess Im with Van on this thing.

[southfork]

PA, I believe oversupply will happen and prices will go down. The fault however is not simply because of Sweet Tree or Crown, it is myopic to believe that. La Pierre, CDL and technology providers have allowed many of us to expand, in a very short time frame.

I went from about 1000 buckets and am on my way to 15,000 taps on high vac.. 4,000 taps used to be an economic unit, today it is more like 10,000 taps. Anyone who has converted to high vac or added more taps to increase yield is contributing to a potential oversupply. How many of us increased production but did absolutely zero to increase consumption? I for one did! I cannot blame Crown or Sweet tree for that.

[southfork]

Lets see, one poster states he knows from a Crown employee that they only have 20,000 taps, another poster is worried they have so many taps they may drive the US price down. I believe the USDA has put out information on how many taps are in each state on a year over year basis, can anyone link to that information? How many producers have gone from 20,000 to 40,000 taps? Are they contributing to the potential oversupply?

[Parker]

Ummm,,,i think the goverment useing borrowed money is contributing to oversupply by giving producers free money......if you want to go that route thats your deal but i would rather run old junk i bought........my kids should not have to pay for my new vortex and h2o ro.......but thats just me.......i went and saw sweet tree......jaw dropping with massive plans for more more more......at least they said they were using their own money......and thwy were going to market what they made. i do worry about the smartest 1% squeezing us out of the market by getting the bulk price down to $2 or lower a pound........i really liked it when i got $4a pound for anything i could get out of the evaporator.....when i was a kid i milked 40 gurnseys....how many farms like that are around today

[southfork]

In most facets of agriculture it is not the very largest 1% of the producers that dictate price and supply. It is generally the next 40% or so of producers that produce the bulk of the product. My guess is that tap and yield expansion in some states far exceeds what Crown added to New York's tap numbers. That would mean that the bulk of the National syrup supply expansion is not coming from Crown. Remember, Crown has only reported tap numbers in one state of production, New York. Did any other states increase in year over year tap numbers over the last five years?

[Parker]

In my humbel opinion if your backed by .gov then you are part of the 1%...........dont get me wrong,,,i think its a smart thing to do and i have a bunch of friends that have gotten govt. Grants.......but getting huge free upgrades has an affect on supply....how many people that you know have gotten new equipment and said "now i can add a bunch or taps and it will take me less time to boil" i dont think i know anyone that has not added a bunch of taps after getting an upgrade.......and that will continue....l think sugaring is kinda turning into something like the buffalo, emu, elk, ,appalac deal.....its just never gonna end,,,huge profits,,,easy money.....until it isnt....

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

In my humbel opinion if your backed by .gov then you are part of the 1%...........dont get me wrong,,,i think its a smart thing to do and i have a bunch of friends that have gotten govt. Grants.......but getting huge free upgrades has an affect on supply....how many people that you know have gotten new equipment and said "now i can add a bunch or taps and it will take me less time to boil" i dont think i know anyone that has not added a bunch of taps after getting an upgrade.......and that will continue....l think sugaring is kinda turning into something like the buffalo, emu, elk, ,appalac deal.....its just never gonna end,,,huge profits,,,easy money.....until it isnt....

There will still be money in quality!!!

[GeneralStark]

I think there are quite a few accusations that have been made in this thread that would be worth critically examining before continuing to discuss what may mostly be heresay. Sure Charles Schumer has advocated for the expansion of the maple industry in the state of NY, primarily through the Maple Tap Act, but Crown is not the only entity benefiting from this. The reality is that Maple Syrup has evolved from a novel product to a major commodity and while change is tough for many to swallow, this industry is evolving. Blaming this trend on big gov't handing out free money is a cop out. This trend can be blamed on some of the largest advocates for this industry such as Bruce Bascom who have been expanding markets for maple syrup for years, and for advances in technology that many of us are taking advantage of. The drop in bulk prices has nothing to do with Crown and Sweet Tree, but looking for scapegoats like big brother picking favorites is always easier than actually having to really examine an issue critically.

I highly doubt there is anyone that boils with oil that is complaining about the low cost of fuel right now, and mainly this is due to gov't subsidies to the energy industry. The tiny amount of taxpayer dollars going to fund USDA grants and low interest loans for maple is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies being given to the energy industry to keep gas and oil prices low, and to big ag. to keep corn prices low.

Don't get me wrong, I am in now way advocating for private interests having their way with tax dollars, but there are better fights to be fighting than over the pennies flowing to encourage development in the maple industry.

[spud]

Very well said General.

Spud

[PATheron]

General- You sound like you know what your talking about. If that is all the case sounds good to me. I like that my oil bill is down, I didn't even know it was from the government subsidizing that stuff. I guess there is good and bad in all the government stuff. Peace be with you brother. Ill quit hatin on the govn and crown maple then. Theron

[southfork]

Excellent post General.

[unc23win]

I would have to agree with others well said General.

In actuality even if Crown did receive funding is just merely a drop in the bucket compared to what they are investing. In fact probably way less of the percentage of their whole than that compared to if one of us got a grant. Some producers just wouldn't expand without getting funding and still some want more funding. I actually know of a producer who didn't even apply for the NRCS grant for an RO because they didn't want to have to build and maintain a heated room. In my book it is acceptable to not apply, but this doesn't seem like the right reason. Sort of like turning down a free car because you have to pay tax.

Although I find it very interesting Crown's business is none of mine. I personally like the goals and ideas of the International Association and Bascoms as well as others to do a better job promoting and marketing product world wide. Seems like a big producer like Crown would try to help that effort.

As for comparing Maple to other industries it just doesn't work because Maple is very much one of a kind.

[DrTimPerkins]

The tiny amount of taxpayer dollars going to fund USDA grants and low interest loans for maple is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies being given to the energy industry to keep gas and oil prices low, and to big ag. to keep corn prices low.

Don't get me wrong, I am in now way advocating for private interests having their way with tax dollars, but there are better fights to be fighting than over the pennies flowing to encourage development in the maple industry.

If would be nice if the subsidizes the maple industry received amounted to pennies on the dollar. The big subsidy money goes to corn, wheat, and soybeans (they have plenty of lobbyists in DC whose job is to keep it that way). The big subsidy/grant/loan/payout dollars goes to corn, wheat, and soybeans, typically on the large corporate farms. They even get paid to NOT grow crops in some instances. The energy dollars that haven't gone to petroleum have gone to corn (ethanol).

The very tiny amount of government dollars that does go to maple is not directed as subsidizes for the most part, but is usually competitive with all other specialty crops, which maple is a very small part of. Those "pennies" are more like very small fractions of pennies. As for the Maple Tap Act.....great idea (in my opinion). It was authorized in the last Farm Bill (for 5 years), however has remained unfunded thus far. No pennies coming from there at all. Of course part of this is due to maple producers NOT REPORTING their crop to the USDA NASS, which makes the industry look far smaller than it is (and thus easier to ignore).

I view Crown's advertising in much the way that small producers say their product is better because it is slow-cooked in small batches over a wood fire....they are just trying to carve our a niche for their product. Quite a few producers do exactly the same thing. Crown just has a bigger budget and better ad writers.

[southfork]

This is an excellent and forward thinking thread. I am glad to see actual facts now being discussed.

Crown's advertising is simply stating their image and what they stand for, there is nothing wrong with it. As Dr. Tim mentioned, many producers advertise within their niche and that is fine as well. We see that in many areas of agriculture with words such as organic, grass fed, free range, etc. Although I am a large Montana producer of Angus beef cattle I take no exception to the smaller niche producers such as the " grass fed " crowd, each area has it's demands. I applaud the diversity in marketing. Crown is doing an excellent job marketing the "improvements" technology and sanitation have added to the syrup producing process.

[sirsapsalot]

This doesn't look like a USDA grant to me. I wish someone would GIVE me 4 million +, I would create 59 jobs too! http://www.pawlingpublicradio.org/2014/05/28/pawling-business-report-guest-speaker-discusses-dutchess-county-economic-development/

[sirsapsalot]

Another one to upgrade the old stuff that was put in 2 years ago.... http://www.thinkdutchess.com/financing/cfa-redc/

[southfork]

That is an issue for you to take up with Hicks and Cuomo. Economic development goes far beyond 59 jobs. I have no comment on Crown or Sweet Tree's financing, not important to me. Development money is for all in the region to apply for and I am not in the Hudson Valley.

This thread started by bashing Crown's claim of being the largest producer, then moved to Crown's industry marketing practices, then remarks about outsiders entering the maple industry. The genuine undertone however always seems to go back to wealth and who should make maple syrup, jealousy is the term. I welcome Crown into "my" maple industry and plan to follow their lead in quality standards.

[unc23win]

Well said Southfork.

[sirsapsalot]

The genuine undertone however always seems to go back to wealth and who should make maple syrup, jealousy is the term. I welcome Crown into "my" maple industry and plan to follow their lead in quality standards.

Not at all jealous, you asked for facts and I gave you facts. Now as far a quality goes.... I was looking for a link for a maple syrup recall crown maple had not to long ago, oddly enough I couldn't find any info on it. I'm sure you already were aware of their recent syrup recall tho.

[southfork]

Many companies have food recalls, and there will be more. That is a mute point.

Are you one of those who has never visited Madava but know all that you have heard ?

[sirsapsalot]

Are you one of those who has never visited Madava but know all that you have heard ?

I guess so, I did tour a Ford plant once does that make an expert on automobiles?

[southfork]

Thank you, that is what I thought.

[sirsapsalot]

Thank you, that is what I thought.

"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ***, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."

[southfork]

If I were you,..... I would consider joining the Michigan Maple Syrup Association and the Commercial Maple Syrup Producers of Michigan. Plenty of great syrup producers in Michigan.

[southfork]

One more thing while you are writing your check to the Commercial Maple Syrup Producers of Michigan (cmspm.org)......Take a good look at their objectives with increasing tap count, government participation etc. Are these bad guys?

What you will learn is that Crown was merely ahead of their time!!!

[sirsapsalot]

One more thing while you are writing your check to the Commercial Maple Syrup Producers of Michigan (cmspm.org)......Take a good look at their objectives with increasing tap count, government participation etc. Are these bad guys?

What you will learn is that Crown was merely ahead of their time!!!

Wow, you are a maple expert!


Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[Calycanthus]

There's a few things people will never understand, and usually people end up arguing about the wrong stuff.

Don't forget, when you support farmers, you support all farmers, big and small. So what if someone puts in a new operation with a ka-billion taps? Current production of maple syrup in the United States and Canada is not meeting current worldwide demand for product, and that demand is growing. Source for previous statement? Head of sales for Bascom's.

I grew up in the Midwest, not too far (relatively speaking) from the Canadian border. Every year or two, some mis-guided idiot would go up to the border and open the doors on semi trucks of trucks carrying grain into the US form Canada because he thought Canadian grain was depressing the price of his American grain. Want to guess the number one importer of grain in the world? The US. Number 2? Canada. Want to guess the number one exporter of grain in the world? The US. Number 2? Canada. So you tell me, should we be arguing about what amounts to details, or should we be developing a greater understanding of economics, trade policy, and monetary exchange rates?

An absolutely unrelated story... Ivory makes the best soap, because it's 99.94% pure, right? Think any other soap manufacturer is any less exacting in their manufacturing standards? But if you make the claim, you get the credit.

Let them make the claim. And we'll let you feel your nose is snubbed because someone else is claiming to make a better (but the same) product. They may be marketing their own brand, but they are marketing it to a demographic you would never reach. That's the kind of competition I want...one that mobilizes a massive marketing campaign, creates awareness of the industry and the products we all produce, but doesn't sell to my customers.

Who is your competition? Well, what are you selling? If you are selling the experience of coming to the sugarhouse, the story of making syrup, and by the way, here's a jug of it, your competition is not another sugarhouse.

[southfork]

All good Sirsap!

What are everyone's opinions on the objectives of cmspm.org? Will their objectives contribute to government unfairness and a use of taxpayers money for maple development, an over abundance of supply, and a resultant decrease of domestic syrup prices? Will the experts please chime in?

Personally, I have no issue with their goals and objectives. What do others think?

[WMF]

What is Bug Water? Is this a Wisconsin thing like cooking instead of boiling?

[southfork]

Bug water is sap after you strain out the moths, spiders, snow fleas and other good things. The protein the bugs excrete is left with the sap. I still have about 125 buckets that tend to collect these trophies. I make syrup for my own use with the buckets. I love the buckets, the tradition, and the flavor.

Protein skimmers utilized by Crown help remove foreign protein such as insect and arachnid excrement from their sap prior to boiling.

[n8hutch]

This Thread has everything that's great about the trader in it & everything that is wrong with the trader in it.

I would be lying if I said that I have never been caught up in a loosing argument like this.

I can sympathize with the folks who are not fond of big government or big companies getting grant monies or tax breaks. It always seems like our government spends our tax dollars with no regard for how hard we had to work to create that income. Unfortunately I don't think there's much you can do about it with shallow pocket books.

[GeneralStark]

This doesn't look like a USDA grant to me. I wish someone would GIVE me 4 million +, I would create 59 jobs too! http://www.pawlingpublicradio.org/2014/05/28/pawling-business-report-guest-speaker-discusses-dutchess-county-economic-development/

Does Michigan have any economic development programs you could potentially obtain funds through? Perhaps you should look into it. Here in VT there are several programs, one of which known as Working Lands provides funding for innovative forestry and ag. projects. Many impressive projects have been funded including several sugarmakers. I have applied several times but have not yet received any funds. :cry:

Is it Crown that bugs you or is the fact that a wastewater treatment plant received funds as well also upsetting. What about the 3 million to Marist College? or the 2 million to a psychiatric center?

[mountainvan]

Sorry guys..... Didn't mean to start a ruckus. I just like for people, corporations, politicians, and most of all maple producers to be honest. I know it's a lot to ask, but I still do.
Who is actually the largest maple production facility in North America? Donald LaPierre? Bruce Bascom? I'd like to know the truth so I can pass on factual information to my Hudson valley customers at this weekends farmers market. I'm sure I'll get some inquiries. Thank in advance.

[GeneralStark]

This Thread has everything that's great about the trader in it & everything that is wrong with the trader in it.

I would be lying if I said that I have never been caught up in a loosing argument like this.

I can sympathize with the folks who are not fond of big government or big companies getting grant monies or tax breaks. It always seems like our government spends our tax dollars with no regard for how hard we had to work to create that income. Unfortunately I don't think there's much you can do about it with shallow pocket books.

I think the challenge for many is the inability to see all the nuance in a complex world. Perhaps the most critical purpose of govt is to encourage the development of an advancing society. Many seem to see the use of taxpayer dollars for anything beyond rudimentary projects (and some even see that as over the top) as an assault on their fundamental rights. The reality is we all benefit from govt spending, from roads and bridges to cheap gas. Is it all fair? and does it all make sense?... of course not. This is likely because many are unwilling to actually get educated and involved so the ones with the time and resources often get more of their fair share.

Once again, Crown is a mere pittance in terms of govt funds going to private enterprise.

[southfork]

Good post General.

Mountainvan you started a great thread which allowed the industry to identify some changes going on today. Maple is moving towards a recognized agricultural industry. Dr. Perkins referenced that fact, as did others.

As far as who is largest, I do not believe anyone is being dishonest. Major installations are going on as we speak, therefore the numbers of taps are changing rapidly, and daily. Companies such as CDL are playing a major role in helping sugarbushes develop, and develop they are. I personally went to Vermont ( just last week) to see the new Crown installation being supplied by CDL and installed by Mike Bennett. It is real, it is large, it is very modern. What is the potential number of taps? I do not know and that is really none of my business. I will say this, I have never seen anything like this installation and hundreds of thousands of potential taps come to mind.

One thing I learned in Montana is that you never ask a rancher how much land and how many cows he owns, that is a personal thing.

[n8hutch]

I think the challenge for many is the inability to see all the nuance in a complex world. Perhaps the most critical purpose of govt is to encourage the development of an advancing society. Many seem to see the use of taxpayer dollars for anything beyond rudimentary projects (and some even see that as over the top) as an assault on their fundamental rights. The reality is we all benefit from govt spending, from roads and bridges to cheap gas. Is it all fair? and does it all make sense?... of course not. This is likely because many are unwilling to actually get educated and involved so the ones with the time and resources often get more of their fair share.

Once again, Crown is a mere pittance in terms of govt funds going to private enterprise.
I am not saying that all government spending is bad. But how many consecutive years have we spent more than we have taken in . How long can that continue. I realize this is all way off topic but I think the national debt. And the Debt to GDP ratio are in the Back of people's minds. I personally worry about what kind of a chance my kids are going to have.

When you have things like this in the Back of your mind I think it makes people not like big business. It's Hard to believe that many of these companies couldn't get by without grant money. It just allows them to stuff more money in their pocket.

I see wealthy people in my area getting grants for this & that all the time. Does that make them bad people?No, but that doesn't make it right.I think the Definition of Need has been a little skewed over the years.

[PATheron]

I think I hate them again but im not sure. Theron

[sirsapsalot]

Is it Crown that bugs you or is the fact that a wastewater treatment plant received funds as well also upsetting. What about the 3 million to Marist College? or the 2 million to a psychiatric center?

Nope, southfork bashed some guy in this thread because he clamed he didn't have his facts straight on Crown. I just wanted to post the info that rusty was referring to and southfork jumped all over me. Looking back I see rusty deleted all of his posts ( too bad ).

At least the masses get to see benefits of a water treatment plant, a college, and a psychiatric center.

Lets say Crown has 50000 taps and they spent 4.1 million dollars to put the taps in are you okay as a maple producer and taxpayer that they spent 82 dollars per tap doing so? Where is the ROI? Ohh that's right its tax payer money ROI doesn't matter. if the owner is from wall street where are the private investors at? They are not coming as they like to get at least 5% on their money, no way is that happening here.

[sirsapsalot]

The tiny amount of taxpayer dollars going to fund USDA grants and low interest loans for maple is a drop in the bucket compared to the subsidies being given to the energy industry to keep gas and oil prices low, and to big ag. to keep corn prices low.

Actually there is no subsidy to keep corn prices down. There are subsidy's to keep corn prices up and to keep corn producers in business when prices are low tho. I am a 4th generation corn and soybean producer if your wondering where I got my info southfork.

[Parker]

I do enjoy a healthy debate with differing viewpoints. I do have a question tho...if there is more demand than supply how come bulk prices have dropped and will agine this year be lower? I realize the weakness in the canadian dollar and the reserve they are sitting is the major factor,,,,but,,,how can demand be greater than supply when there are such large reserves in canada?
......

Sorry i have not figured out how to move text from one post to another......

[wiam]

I do enjoy a healthy debate with differing viewpoints. I do have a question tho...if there is more demand than supply how come bulk prices have dropped and will agine this year be lower? I realize the weakness in the canadian dollar and the reserve they are sitting is the major factor,,,,but,,,how can demand be greater than supply when there are such large reserves in canada?
......

Sorry i have not figured out how to move text from one post to another......

Have to agree with this comment. Seems like ecenomics 101. Supply and demand sets price.

[DrTimPerkins]

This Thread has everything that's great about the trader in it & everything that is wrong with the trader in it.

You're right. It has everything but a "Like" button. If there was one, I would definitely "Like" your comment.

[DrTimPerkins]

I do enjoy a healthy debate with differing viewpoints. I do have a question tho...if there is more demand than supply how come bulk prices have dropped and will agine this year be lower? I realize the weakness in the canadian dollar and the reserve they are sitting is the major factor,,,,but,,,how can demand be greater than supply when there are such large reserves in canada?


You pretty much answered your own question. The simple relationships among supply, demand, and price are not balanced due to currency exchange (US/Canada) and storage (Quebec reserve and what the processors have in their warehouses). And supply is rising as well, with strong growth in the US and plans to add 2-2.5 Million taps in Quebec, plus all the new taps in New Brunswick and Ontario. If supply stayed the same and demand rose, prices would rise, but all the variables are moving targets, and in many cases we aren't even really sure how big some of those targets are (supply, demand, reserves). However in general, the bulk price of syrup in the US did not go down, it was merely moderated by the Canadian currency exchange rate.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Price was set this past spring for 2016 and it is $ 2.91 @ in Canadian dollars by the Federation. Depending on conversion rate of dollars, that will be approx price of US bulk prices.

[southfork]

When you read expansion numbers mentioned in Dr. Perkin's article, seems odd to me that some producers have a problem with Crown expanding by a few hundred thousand taps. Thank you Brandon for your information as well.

SirSap , glad you revised your post. Grain subsidies are funded by the taxpayers to help ensure a consistent supply from farmers with a goal of keeping prices palatable to consumers. Subsidies do keep the price up(in a sense) to you the producer in lean years,...... hoping to keep you in business to supply consumers and keep our price lower in most years. I only farm about 1000 deeded acres of grain, mostly wheat, barley and some corn, I do not apply for grain subsidies so am not an expert on crop subsidies.

[Parker]

Umm bulk prices did not go down???? Well i did not get $3 a pound for my syrup this year........mabey i selling to the wrong packer............as far as people squawking about crown expansion......lts not that thay are adding the taps its that they get so much $ from .gov to add the taps....a govt. subsidising a hedgefunds hobby...i know i know we all can apply for the grants,,,,,,it just that some of us think we should fail or succed by our own hard work,,,,,you know capitalism and all,,,,,,,,agine i hold nothing aginst those taking money that .gov has to borrow and that somehow will have to be repaid..by our children.....its a personal choice,,,i just dont want to contribute to the debt,,,i know thats dumb and i loose money because of it,,,just makes me laugh a littel,,,,,,

I guess because everyone ealse is doing it that makes it o.k.?

[sirsapsalot]

Great explanation of the old farm bill southfork. Most hobby farmers like yourself don't need subsides. With small acreages and other sources of income you could survive a disaster year without harvesting a crop. I am sure you are aware that the direct payment subsides days are over. Farmers now are subsidized with a insurance program. That insurance program sets a floor price and protects the grower from disasters, by doing so it keeps productive and efficient farmers in business, many of whom put as much money in seed, fertilizer, chemical, and fuel into the ground as a crown received in the one gift from the tax payers of New York. Many of todays cash crop farmers could loose everything they and many generations before them have work hard for all of their lives if faced with a major drought or flood without government subsidized insurance.

[RustyBuckets]

Thanks sirsapalot for the postings. I deleted my post for just the reason you stated about argueing with fools. What I stated I researched and it wasnt hearsay, and if I was jealous of them as one colorful person stated I would of visited Crown multiple times and told you guys that multiple times. As far as quality goes and all this tap count let me say this. It doesnt take a real genius a ton of money nor thousands of taps to make quality syrup. A person can make a quality product with a darn stainless steel kettle, 1 tap, and a filter in his or her kitchen. And whats up with the bug soup deal? Is this a Wisconsin thing where bugs can morph into sealed tubing system, covered tanks, or an evaporator with hoods on it? Now I dont have a sap sewage treament tank like that place in Hudson Valley but I do and I believe most have a sap filteration system. Oh and make sure you bottle your syrup at around 185 degrees before taking it too the morning news show months later and giving out samples, the look on those faces was pricless. Parker your spot on. I would much rather see 59 homeless Vets who fought for our freedom that lets us in america enjoy such things as making syrup get those millions instead of giving millions to millionares. So please excuse me I have to go pack my car up for a road trip, I have an extreme sudden urge of jealousy and need to go visit Crown again.

[PATheron]

Just like I said at the start. Politicians make the rules to favor the people that have money and will help them be reelected. We have the best government money can buy. Theron

[southfork]

Sirsap, for whatever it is worth, I am not a hobby farmer. I personally own 21,000 deeded acres ( including my sugarbushes) and lease an additional 3,000 acres. I am in 5 irrigation districts, farm over 2,300 acres, of which about 1000 acres are grain. Also have a Doctorate degree from Michigan State University, studied agriculture and veterinary medicine. Three of my children have studied and graduated from MSU with four year degrees in food industry management and animal science. The fourth studies at Yale, in his 13th year as a surgery resident. We all make maple syrup from two different sugarbushes, one in Wisconsin, one in Michigan. We are not experts on anything, but are pretty much in tune with agriculture and maple. You keep bringing up this credential thing, there you have it.

[sirsapsalot]

I personally own 21,000 deeded acres ( including my sugarbushes) and lease an additional 3,000 acres. I am in 5 irrigation districts, farm over 2,300 acres, of which about 1000 acres are grain. Wow deeded acres, isn't that special........Lol

[southfork]

Yes, and paid for. Let's get back to maple and keep it at maple.

[sirsapsalot]

Yes, and paid for. Let's get back to maple and keep it at maple.

Thank you for explaining the term deeded to us poor people.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Parker,

If you read my post it was $ 2.91 in Canadian which equated to about 2.30 to 2.35 US this year. If Canadian dollar is stronger next year, bulk will probably be higher for US. If it is weaker then, well you know.

[PATheron]

Southfork- I couldn't understand why you were such a cheerleader for this outfit. Now I think I get it. With that kind of money you should do the same thing crown did. Theres an endless supply of taxpayer money you tell the government youll create a few jobs and your in the chips. Good luck I don't blame you. Once you get it up and running maybe Ill come visit and see the operation. It is neat to see the latest and greatest in maple technology and trust me it is a lot easier than saving the money up and trying to pay as you go. It sucks. Good luck Theron

[n8hutch]

Southfork, I have to Admit that I am slightly jealous that you own 21,000 acres, there is something to be said for, owning and managing that kind of acreage. Hopefully you keep it open for others to enjoy.

I think most of us northerners all would like to have that kind of real-estate to pass on to future generations. I have some friends that own 1,000s of acres. It's really something when you can stand on a knoll, look all around and say that's all mine.

[DrTimPerkins]

Umm bulk prices did not go down????

Not in Canada, where maple syrup prices are set. The price there stayed the same from last year. The only thing that changed is the currency exchange rate. Canadian $1.00 is now worth about US $0.75. So $2.91/lb Canadian x 0.75 = $2.18 US. That is the price that packers can buy it from Quebec, so that is what they will pay. So in terms of Canadian $ (which is where most syrup is made and where the prices are determined), you got exactly the same as what you got last year. You just happen to live on the opposite side of the border. If you wanted your pay in Canadian $, you'd have gotten $2.91/lb.

[Parker]

Thanks guys, i was being a smart axx........**** NAFTA!,,,,,,,,,,

[southfork]

PATheron,
You would always be welcome at my place. I do however tend to stay a small maple producer and sell the bulk of my concentrate. My land can support about 15,000 taps and I am only at 5,000, with more in process.

I see the maple industry following every other facet of agriculture, consolidation. I see consolidation in the processing plants to regional and semi regional processing and bottling facilities who may not own any taps. Once the syrup price gets depressed some more, and I believe it will at current expansion rates, I do not see every commercial operator going through the expense in labor and equipment to convert sap to syrup.
We see that with custom farmers and custom stock feeders. Not everyone could or should own a combine. Same will be true of large evaporators and bottling facilities, why have many in every county? This will be the type of specialization as seen in other areas of agriculture.

Fortunately there will always be a place for the hobby producers, they are important to the industry and tradition. Commercial production however is in for some major changes going forward. That is just my prediction, not fact. It is already beginning however, just have to see how far it progresses.

[Parker]

As with other sectors of ag. Thanks to.gov getting into it,,,,,,imho,,,,,,feel the bern?

[sirsapsalot]

Southfork- I couldn't understand why you were such a cheerleader for this outfit. Now I think I get it. With that kind of money you should do the same thing crown did. Theres an endless supply of taxpayer money you tell the government youll create a few jobs and your in the chips. Good luck I don't blame you. Once you get it up and running maybe Ill come visit and see the operation. It is neat to see the latest and greatest in maple technology and trust me it is a lot easier than saving the money up and trying to pay as you go. It sucks. Good luck Theron

Pat, you are spot on!

[1tapattack]

haha my husband chris over here is laughing his head off at you 2 michigan producers seeing who has the bigger johnson with your bantering. This is a great example how the maple industry is divided, actually Michigan is a great example also.
One side (sirsapsalot) is the old school way of thinking of you work hard, make money, and reinvest your own money into improving your operation. You take great pride in what you have accomplished because it has been done with the blood in your body.
The other side is the big corporate side (southfork). You've made your mark in other fields, and now for whatever reason you're going to enter maple. You may not know how to produce syrup, but you have the money and resources to hire whatever you may need.
This like I said is most apparent in Michigan, where they need 2 separate organizations to define what their purpose is. That's their business, not mine.
Crown gets a bad rap because they have a few things going against them. First they are the big corporate brother in our little niche industry. They came in with 0 knowledge and within 4 years were being served at the presidential inaugeration. I see where that can cause jealousy. What I didn't agree with Crown was when they first hit the scene they came in with all the financial backing for promotion, but their technique was to bash other producers products. If you have the money, why not help promote, instead of bring down. My opinion.
The second thing that's bugs me about Crown is their funding source. I know grants are out there to take advantage of, but their should be some sort of cut off point. I mean if you have a net worth of 1 million, due you really need a grant?
Third is their quality. I too have heard of a huge recall they had to do this past year. If I recall it might have been in the 130 barrel range? I know it was said it was a mute point, but if they are promoting their stuff as better, and promoting maple in general, then this is a black eye on maple in my opinion.
I realize corporate america is in maple now, and probably here to stay, but it's just a shame some of these guys call themselves sugarmakers. A sugarmaker to me is a person that is either tending to his woods, or his evaporator making sure everything is going well, not the guy that is giving tours of his vacation property and calling Juan, Pablo, or Emanuel to check up on how things are going before he sits down to his catered supper.
Sirsapalot, Southfork.....love the Michigan State bantering. Chris says Hi to both of you, and tell Beth, and Lynne I say hi.

[southfork]

Two separate organizations in Michigan is just part of the evolution in the commercial end of maple.

[PATheron]

1tapattack- That's pretty funny, made my evening southfork- I can tell your a business man. That don't make you bad, its what makes this country run. Good luck to you whatever level you make syrup. Everybody does their own thing. Theron

[sirsapsalot]

And whats up with the bug soup deal? Is this a Wisconsin thing where bugs can morph into sealed tubing system, covered tanks, or an evaporator with hoods on it? Now I dont have a sap sewage treament tank like that place in Hudson Valley but I do and I believe most have a sap filteration system.

Now that's funny, Crown has a special filtration system for bugs on a high vac tubing system? That's what happens when its not your money and you have more dollars then sense in my book.

[mountainvan]

So the LaPierre website claims they are the largest organic maple producer with 140,000 taps. So if they make the organic claim, then there must be a larger nonorganic producer? I do think that 140,000 is larger than 50,000 by A LOT. False deceptive marketing is what is coming, or already hear, for the maple industry.
that was my original point and I will continue to keep an eye on local Hudson valley publications to see what BS the corporate maplers spew out next to make them seem great, while belittling the competition. I also will continue to contact the appropriate organizations to stop the false messages getting to the public. It's a no win situation since theyll probably just make up something new and get in the papers or on the Internet. I encourage all maplers to do the same. Just call me Don, Don Quixote

[sirsapsalot]

So the LaPierre website claims they are the largest organic maple producer with 140,000 taps. So if they make the organic claim, then there must be a larger nonorganic producer? I do think that 140,000 is larger than 50,000 by A LOT. False deceptive marketing is what is coming, or already hear, for the maple industry.
that was my original point and I will continue to keep an eye on local Hudson valley publications to see what BS the corporate maplers spew out next to make them seem great, while belittling the competition. I also will continue to contact the appropriate organizations to stop the false messages getting to the public. It's a no win situation since theyll probably just make up something new and get in the papers or on the Internet. I encourage all maplers to do the same. Just call me Don, Don Quixote

Thank you for taking the time to do this, you are a good man!

[sirsapsalot]

Where is my friend ??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsBYBugvDek

[1tapattack]

Where is my friend ??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsBYBugvDek

you have chris laughing again, but he wanted to post this one up. He thinks this one could be better suited, and wants you to listen to the lyrics too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FfJ89rGPc

[GeneralStark]

you have chris laughing again, but he wanted to post this one up. He thinks this one could be better suited, and wants you to listen to the lyrics too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FfJ89rGPc

Classic!! Thread ender....

[Goggleeye]

Bug water is sap after you strain out the moths, spiders, snow fleas and other good things. The protein the bugs excrete is left with the sap. I still have about 125 buckets that tend to collect these trophies. I make syrup for my own use with the buckets. I love the buckets, the tradition, and the flavor.

Protein skimmers utilized by Crown help remove foreign protein such as insect and arachnid excrement from their sap prior to boiling.

And my question is, who really cares if there are a few bug proteins in your jar of maple syrup?:o No source here, but I would be willing to bet there would be more foreign proteins in the average salad, or for that matter, in the breath of air you take inside a building than there would be in a quart of my syrup.

Truly sad that such a level of sanitation is expected. However, we do have pasteurized eggs, now. Food grade, yeah I get it. Sanitary conditions during processing I understand. But skimming bug excrement proteins and being proud of it. Wow:cry:

[WMF]

After Crown solves the bug water sap problem I hope they move on to honey, I hear some honey producers actually let bugs crawl all over the finished product.

[unc23win]

Its amazing how the focus of one thread changes as different people pick and choose what to focus on.

You all can make all the fun you want of Crown for the bug sap thing, but keep in mind that might very well be cutting edge. I am pretty sure it is more complex than simply skimming bugs. I first heard about it I think 3 years ago when it popped up for the news for a company that I own stock in they were the ones who developed the technology and installed the system for Crown they were better known as Madava Farms then. Obviously its a little harder for those of us who don't skim sap to say our Syrup is 100% Pure if it really has bug excrement in it. I don't think a label that says 100% Pure except an unknown amount of bug excrement is nearly as likely to fly off the shelf.

My point is this might very well be one of those cases where its in better interest to ALL of us to let the word about some things slide. I for one don't want the bug thing to become standard practice and be expected to do it myself. We as a whole know what the quality of our product we make is. Don't be jealous of someone else's niche, or down play their knowledge about making syrup and certainly don't expect all articles to be correct god forbid an author make a mistake when writing a story.

If you really want to know who the big producers are how about picking up the Maple Almanac it has the top 20 in the U.S. and safe to say 50,000 won't be on the list in 2016 for the biggest in North America look North pretty sure it was discussed on here before I don't think it is Lapierre (check the forums you'll find it) of course we all know who has the goal of being number 1 in North America.

[southfork]

Good post Jared. In no way was I saying that should be standard protocol, in fact I was very clear I do not protein skim myself. Like you, I agree it may be cutting edge and who knows what technology will be available in the future.

As far as who is largest, it becomes messy whether one is talking about number of taps owned, amount of taps from which sap is purchased from others, or the purchase and packing of bulk syrup. In other words, the size of the processing and bottling plant and amount of sap processed may vary greatly from the number of taps actually owned. Crown probably has the largest finished sugarhouse, no idea on the rest.

[Goggleeye]

You all can make all the fun you want of Crown for the bug sap thing, but keep in mind that might very well be cutting edge. I am pretty sure it is more complex than simply skimming bugs.

I'm not necessarily seeking to poke fun at Crown, but rather a society that finds it significant. Seems like we've lost sight of what's reasonable.
And I'm all for a company expanding and finding their niche, but not at the expense of taxpayers or in a way that belittles competition (which I will admit I have no idea if they have done or not) on such trivial matters as 0.00001% (just a guesstimate, no source:)) of bug protein.

And who cares if we have the technology to do something. The better question is whether or not it is necessary. Joel Salatin: I'm always struck by how successful we have been at hitting the bull's-eye of the wrong target. I mean we have learned- for example, in cattle we have learned how to plant, fertilize and harvest corn using global positioning satellite technology, and nobody sits back and asks, "But should we be feeding cows corn?" We've become a culture of technicians. We're all into the how of it and nobody's stepping back and saying "But why?" Kind of like washing meat with ammonia or cut veggies with formaldehyde. So we can kill bacteria with it. Great. Why have we created a system where we need to?

But then if I could, I'd walk into the woods and never come back to this mess of a self-centered society we live in. No morals, no principles. All about me and whatever it takes to get what I want.

[sirsapsalot]

Its amazing how the focus of one thread changes as different people pick and choose what to focus on.

You all can make all the fun you want of Crown for the bug sap thing, but keep in mind that might very well be cutting edge. I am pretty sure it is more complex than simply skimming bugs. I first heard about it I think 3 years ago when it popped up for the news for a company that I own stock in they were the ones who developed the technology and installed the system for Crown they were better known as Madava Farms then. Obviously its a little harder for those of us who don't skim sap to say our Syrup is 100% Pure if it really has bug excrement in it. I don't think a label that says 100% Pure except an unknown amount of bug excrement is nearly as likely to fly off the shelf.

My point is this might very well be one of those cases where its in better interest to ALL of us to let the word about some things slide. I for one don't want the bug thing to become standard practice and be expected to do it myself. We as a whole know what the quality of our product we make is. Don't be jealous of someone else's niche, or down play their knowledge about making syrup and certainly don't expect all articles to be correct god forbid an author make a mistake when writing a story.

If you really want to know who the big producers are how about picking up the Maple Almanac it has the top 20 in the U.S. and safe to say 50,000 won't be on the list in 2016 for the biggest in North America look North pretty sure it was discussed on here before I don't think it is Lapierre (check the forums you'll find it) of course we all know who has the goal of being number 1 in North America.

Seriously, like rusty said, how does bug excrement get into sap that came from tubing under vacuum, thru a ro and into a evaporator with a hood on it? If we were talking about 50000 buckets that get collected once a day that's another story but we are not.

[southfork]

Sirsap, I think that is why it is not standard protocol for the rest of us to use protein skimmers. Are you guys all on tubing over there now? We are thinking about tubing ours, may be in to see you guys.

[CBOYER]

For your information, biggest producer is Érablière Nord-Ouest ltée from St-Quentin, New Brunswick, owner is Gerald Turcotte. in 2013 they had 178,000 taps, now ??

Lapierre sugarbush is located 3 km north of my place...

[CBOYER]

A google translation of a text in l'Acadie Nouvelle

Érablière Northwest Ltd.
Gérald Turcotte, Saint-Quentin
Érablière Northwest on Resources Road, near Saint Quentin, is the largest in the world sugar bush. Its owner, Gérald Turcotte, has more than 178 000 taps and one of the few to produce nearly 1,700 syrup barrels of 26 gallons per year. That's about what he has produced in recent years. In one day, his record is 97 barrels of production. He began with his father, Leonard, in 1970, with 1000 taps; it is also happening in tubing system. In 1986 he became the owner and began expansion with the installation of a reverse osmosis system to keep more amount of sap and increasing taps. In 1991 and 1992, Mr. Trucotte began adding acres of land, to reach 80 000 taps.

He never stopped growing since. Today it has 150 acres of land and can hack on over 1250 acres of Crown land. It has four evaporators, whose operating three pellet and an oil. He has more than 25 seasonal employees.

He sells all its production to LB Maple Threat in Granby, Quebec. Thereafter, the product is sold in Europe, the United States and in western countries.

Given the demand for syrup, Mr. Turcotte made very little 2nd and 3rd transformations. When asked to talk about these projects, it provides a few years the transfer of the business to family members and wants to keep a few notches for his personal use. His wife, Lyse Fortin, is very involved in the business and he is very happy to have his presence and his complicity in this great project. For further information: 235-3244.

[CBOYER]

Just a clarification: Crown Lands do not refer to Mr Turner lands...:rolleyes: it is "State Lands" for you

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

And who cares if we have the technology to do something. The better question is whether or not it is necessary. Joel Salatin: I'm always struck by how successful we have been at hitting the bull's-eye of the wrong target. I mean we have learned- for example, in cattle we have learned how to plant, fertilize and harvest corn using global positioning satellite technology, and nobody sits back and asks, "But should we be feeding cows corn?" We've become a culture of technicians. We're all into the how of it and nobody's stepping back and saying "But why?" Kind of like washing meat with ammonia or cut veggies with formaldehyde. So we can kill bacteria with it. Great. Why have we created a system where we need to?

Joel Salatin's wisdom can be applied to many facets of agriculture and life!

[GeneralStark]

Seriously, like rusty said, how does bug excrement get into sap that came from tubing under vacuum, thru a ro and into a evaporator with a hood on it? If we were talking about 50000 buckets that get collected once a day that's another story but we are not.

Even when using tubing it is possible for bugs and other critters to get into sap while it is being stored in tanks. Insects are everywhere and it is impossible to keep them out unless you are using completely sealed tanks. I suspect that when you are operating at a scale that Crown is, there are several places that insects can enter the sap stream.

Also insects can enter the pans through the stacks as can birds and other critters.

[southfork]

The fact is skimming can only help, not hurt. And yes, systems are not sterile and debris free... especially when they vacuum inward through leaks, then pass out of the R/O into tanks that are covered, but not sealed tight. Bears, coons, coyotes, storms, limbs, loose taps, etc all see to it we are not operating in a closed system, not even close.

Again, I do not " skim ". I do however agree skimming does remove organic matter, I have personally watched the system operate.

[Maple Hill]

Joel Salatin's wisdom can be applied to many facets of agriculture and life!
Well said.

[sirsapsalot]

Even when using tubing it is possible for bugs and other critters to get into sap while it is being stored in tanks. Insects are everywhere and it is impossible to keep them out unless you are using completely sealed tanks. I suspect that when you are operating at a scale that Crown is, there are several places that insects can enter the sap stream.

Also insects can enter the pans through the stacks as can birds and other critters.

Seriously, if your buying into this than call me because I have some grazing land for sale in Montana.

[sirsapsalot]

The fact is skimming can only help, not hurt. And yes, systems are not sterile and debris free... especially when they vacuum inward through leaks, then pass out of the R/O into tanks that are covered, but not sealed tight. Bears, coons, coyotes, storms, limbs, loose taps, etc all see to it we are not operating in a closed system, not even close.

Again, I do not " skim ". I do however agree skimming does remove organic matter, I have personally watched the system operate.

Have you ever been to a grain elevator? Your a " grain " farmer from the Kzoo area you ever been to Kellogg's grain reviving facility? If so tell us about their discount schedule, what does Kellogg's allow, and what doesn't Kellogg's allow in a load of grain that will be used to make the foods we put maple syrup on? How about the Jiffy plant in Chelsea, what is and isn't allowed in a load of grain there?

You know that this whole protein skimmer is a big waste of taxpayer money. It amazes and scares me on how far the general population is removed from where their food comes from and what is and isn't achievable.

[southfork]

SirSap,
You missed my post. Are the guys at Sugarbushsupplies in Mason all converted to modern tubing? I am thinking about tubing our hobby bush near you, will probably visit Fogles in a few weeks for supplies.

[GeneralStark]

Seriously, if your buying into this than call me because I have some grazing land for sale in Montana.

Buying into what? Are you saying insects don't get into sap tanks? Or into pans? Are you even a sugarmaker?

[sirsapsalot]

After Crown solves the bug water sap problem I hope they move on to honey, I hear some honey producers actually let bugs crawl all over the finished product.

Great post!

[WImapleenthusiast]

It is about time people consider the exposure that sap has to the outdoors and foreign contaminants. Glad that some in the industry are considering these upcoming issues and adapting to new practices. Who knows the right answer but kudos to the few that are innovating and exploring technology that could provide a cleaner product to the end consumer. Everyone has their own idea of what is right, perfect your operation and let time tell the rest.

[1tapattack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXfexNVPSs

[mapledavefarm]

It is about time people consider the exposure that sap has to the outdoors and foreign contaminants. I am curious to know what food doesn't have this type of exposer?

[Goggleeye]

I am curious to know what food doesn't have this type of exposer?

I was wondering the same thing. You know, when I was a kid in 4-H, the Jr. Leaders took farm animals to the local "inner city" school. More than one kid said they were never eating eggs again once they saw where it came from. Same for the cows when they saw the milking demo. Kids thought it came from the carton at Wal-mart. Such a disconnect.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.” - Aldo Leopold

Exactly how sterile do we want the product? Once again, that sure seems beyond reasonable, especially if even a dime of taxpayer money is spent on it.

[mellondome]

Boiling for hours on end at temps over 215° F should sterilize it. If in doubt, add vitamin D.

[GeneralStark]

Boiling for hours on end at temps over 215° F should sterilize it. If in doubt, add vitamin D.

When concentrating to 20+%, as large operations do, the boiling time to syrup is very short. Unless you are "slow boiling" that is.

[DrTimPerkins]

If in doubt, add vitamin D.

That practice would be considered illegal.

[mapledavefarm]

I was wondering the same thing. You know, when I was a kid in 4-H, the Jr. Leaders took farm animals to the local "inner city" school. More than one kid said they were never eating eggs again once they saw where it came from. Same for the cows when they saw the milking demo. Kids thought it came from the carton at Wal-mart. Such a disconnect.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.” - Aldo Leopold

Exactly how sterile do we want the product? Once again, that sure seems beyond reasonable, especially if even a dime of taxpayer money is spent on it.

Spot on! Thanks for the Leopold quote, a sand county almanac is my favorite book.

[southfork]

https://www.themaplenews.com/story/crown-jewel/8/

[Moser's Maple]

Dumb question, may have been covered already, but if Crown is in NY, but tapping VT trees; what standards do they have to go by?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Mornin' Jake,
I think it is NY standards because it is boiled in NY.

[Parker]

One problem i have with big business getting into spacific fields of ag is eventualy they find a way to change the laws to make it impossibel for the current producer to stay in the market. Look at the sweeping new "organic" requirments for farmers "processing" veggies....i have a friend that got a .gov grant for a veggie packing house,,all built to code via govt. Plans and requirments,,,the next year because of new laws requiring hot and cold running water and a flush toilet in the facility he was not up to code....you need a flush toilet to use a salad spinner?
The smartes 1% know how to run the board and make laws that allow them to control the marketspace........and the organic veggie example is a prime example.

[unc23win]

Mornin' Jake,
I think it is NY standards because it is boiled in NY.

That is what the article said.

[southfork]

Parker, the "built to code" facilities is why I believe what may morph out of all of this is the co-op model. I am talking about commercial producers, not so much the hobbyist.

What may develop are the regional and expensive processing facilities with a co-op of producers supplying them. Ocean Spray, Frito lay and Dairy co-ops come to mind.

[unc23win]

Parker, the "built to code" facilitites is why I believe what may morph out of all of this is the co-op model. I am talking about commercial producers, not so much the hobbyist.

What may develop are the regional and expensive processing facilities with a co-op of producers supplying them. Ocean Spray, Frito lay and Dairy co-ops come to mind.

Interesting that you are talking about this type of facility. I think that the co-op idea could work really well, but I doubt it would ever be given a chance because in general sugarmakers all seem different ideas and without standards across the board its a hard avenue to pursue. I think the international standards is a great step in the right direction, but one sugarmaker wants $15 a quart and another down the road wants $18 then there is the whole wood vs other fuel organic vs non organic and so on. It is an interesting idea and honestly I have thought about something like that working in my area to help all of us get better prices sort of like together being as big as the bigger guys and landing some sort of contract.

[Parker]

Ohhhh my goodness we are sugaring,,not making something that is dangerous!!! Have you EVER herd of someone getting sick from bad syrup?? Why are folks so excited to give in to big bussiness and govt over regulation!?! Its called a free market and capitalism!! How about we keep doing our darndest to make the best product we can and rise and fall by our hard work? Not how good we are at getting free money which is contributing to the 20 trillion nat. Debt?? And burdening futcher generations with a terrible load to try to repay
Im all for laws that protect public health from a real danger but i have a real problem with having to have a flush toilet in my veggie packing house so i can wash lettuce in my salad spinner,,,,,conagra likes that rule though because they can spend $500000 on their pacing house and put my bud that busted his back all his life out of biz...(or make him spend a bunch more money that he could have put into something useful).....and get his market share
So say a large ag firm gets into sugaring and hires some laywers and lobbiest to pass a law saying all sugarhouses need to have a protien skimmer (at a cost of $???) Just to be safe....like the flush toilet i guess.....will the mom and pop producer be able to bear that cost? At $2/lb syrup? No but you can sell your sap to them......i like boiling,,you?
We live in funny times, when i was a kid i had the privlige to work some on a 4000 bucket opp. We collected with horses that pulled a sled with a 300 gal. Oil tank on its side,,dumped into galv. Tanks and boiled on lead pans.....anyone get sick?? Syrup was tested and had accecptabel lead count......freakin moths bugs mice and squirls everywhere......no protine skimmer in sight just great syrup.....
As far as getting away with being a hobbiest and avoiding codes, laws, and regulation, in n.h. if you sell any syrup (any at all, one drop) you are a commercial producer and all fines are collectibel via civil forfiture,,,wanna lose your house?

Im glad i have been able to enjoy the sugaring i have done and have had the privlage to vist many quality producers that excell at their craft,,but i think for the next generation,,,times will be very diffrent,,,,.......

The times they are a changing

[steam maker]

Bravo well said!!!!!!

[southfork]

Times will be different in the future, the entire food industry is in for a change. This is driven by consumer expectation and litigation, not the top producers like Crown, Sweet Tree, or the 1%.

As an example, pet food now has to be manufactured in FDA inspected facilities to the same standards as human food. Why, because humans touch pet food and may ingest disease causing bacteria. This took out or placed an immense expense on the small manufacturer, many went out of business. I know, I produced my first pet food alongside Newman's Own in Chenango Valley, New York, right below the home of Clarence Gains of Gains burger fame. Due to new government regulations we were forced to move to much larger FDA approved facilities, who could meet new standards. This fact is exactly why Pet Food prices have sky rocketed in the US. For added safety, the consumer is willing to pay for this. None of this is driven by the producers, we simply adapt or go out of business.

As far as the maple world, there are many very excellent producers making a wonderful product. It is a fact however that food industry standards will become more difficult, much more so. It is not true however that this is driven by the top producers, they are simply more able to adapt and bear the costs. I would suggest everyone making a food product carry product liability, and plenty of it. That too favors the large producers as they can more likely afford it. They did not however campaign for more liability and litigation.

I think all producers, at all levels, should strive to put out the best product we can. I cannot at this time go to the level of Crown's commitment, but like many producers, I upgrade where I can and try to do the best I can. I have never criticized another's product, but I also have no issue complimenting Crown on their efforts.

[DrTimPerkins]

Ohhhh my goodness we are sugaring,,not making something that is dangerous!!! Have you EVER herd of someone getting sick from bad syrup??

Actually yes, I have. And not just one occasion or even two occasions. You would be AMAZED at what some people do. Probably that is enough said on this subject.

[RustyBuckets]

Parker you just summed up many a sugarmakers thought. I for one sure hope Im dead and long gone well before Southforks dream of how the maple syrup producers world is going to be. What makes this industry great is the exact opposite of his visions of maple. Sad very very sad.

[southfork]

Rusty, That is not at all how I hope the industry will be. I fear it will become this way, it is headed in this direction. It is not however the large producers fault.

[DuncanFTGC/SS]

As far as the maple world, there are many very excellent producers making a wonderful product. It is a fact however that food industry standards will become more difficult, much more so. It is not true however that this is driven by the top producers, they are simply more able to adapt and bear the costs. I would suggest everyone making a food product carry product liability, and plenty of it. That too favors the large producers as they can more likely afford it. They did not however campaign for more liability and litigation.

There is a train of thought out there that the more product liability insurance you carry, the bigger and better target you become for a lawsuit. So by that logic, you should have the minimum to cover reality and still stay under the lawyers radar.

[southfork]

Reality does not play into the minimum. What is the minimum should a person CLAIM to be ill from defoamer, peroxide, alcohol, DE, Pb, oven cleaner, bleach, etc, etc , etc ? There is no reality in America these days, I know what you are saying though.

[Parker]

Dr. Tim
Im talking about unaduterated syrup. Not syrup that has ro soap in it. Or syrup that is contaminated with a nasty substance Like i said, i believe in laws and rules protecting public health. (I had to dump 600 gal of 4% late one night cause i forgot to switch the discharge on my ro)
What i have a problem with are rules that hurt the mom and pops trying to make the best product the can.
Rules like the flush toilet example,,,,,,,,,and that is where the protine skimmer can get you,,,,,,with an illinformed public
now im gonna go back and finish the rest of the protine on my plate.......

[sirsapsalot]

Parker you just summed up many a sugarmakers thought. I for one sure hope Im dead and long gone well before Southforks dream of how the maple syrup producers world is going to be. What makes this industry great is the exact opposite of his visions of maple. Sad very very sad.

Both you and Parker are spot on. Just like this thread people like southfork want to overcomplicate things so you give up, move on, and move out of their way.

Two thing that I don't understand here in this thread. why does a guy that has a 15 billion dollar hedge fund needs tax payer money to build his dream? And why does a guy who doesn't take subsidies on his hobby farm support his actions.

[southfork]

Sirsap, do you work at sugarbushsupplies in Mason Michigan?

[southfork]

I might also add that Crown took no Federal monies for Madava, this is public record if you review. What they did do is qualify for economic development funding from the Hudson Valley Economic Development group. This funding is open to anyone on earth who applies and qualifies. For those of you who cheer from the bench and play in the 5th quarter, Madava is actually a convention like center that attracts an estimated 20,000 visitors per year for dinner, weddings, private business meetings, etc etc. This is no different than any other convention center or restaurant, they simply have a maple theme.

Notice how none of the mid sized or large maple producers enter this conversation. They are better informed.

[southfork]

Sirsap, Do you work for Sugarbush supplies ?

[sirsapsalot]

Notice how none of the mid sized or large maple producers enter this conversation. They are better informed.

Yup,its just us..... the pathetic little people bantering you and your love Crown.

[southfork]

Interesting!

I did appreciate the personal tour I received of your sugarbush and sugarshack, lot of history there.

[sirsapsalot]

Strange you would attack your customers like that What's even more strange is the fact that you think I work there. My guess is you have a long list of people you have pissed off ( on ) who live in Michigan and someone at sugar bush tops that list I guess.

[southfork]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for their operation. I doubt they realize what is going on here and I have no issue supporting their supply company. I will explain it to them in person.

[southfork]

I think Mountainvan started a great thread, over 6,000 views. It is always nice for those in the industry to look at the greater picture, to speculate, and to have a vision for the future. I may be all wrong in my assumptions, just thought I would provide a perspective from the industry side of maple. Like any business, not everyone agrees on the future, lets hope it works well for those who enjoy maple.

[sirsapsalot]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for their operation. I doubt they realize what is going on here and I have no issue supporting their supply company. I will explain it to them in person.

What are you going to do? Are you going to water board their employees until they say they love clown maple as much as you do? Lol Your too much man, you need another hobby.

[southfork]

I might have to agree with you on that Sir, Cheers! Good luck with your farming and maple syrup endeavor, I wish you all the best.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Notice how none of the mid sized or large maple producers enter this conversation. They are better informed.[/QUOTE]

Parker is not small! PA Theron is not small! Most of us just like to stay out of pissing matches!

[southfork]

Thompson sorry, small is a relative term and I should have been more clear. I am a small producer at 5,000 taps, with 3,000 more mapped out. I was talking about the producers listed in New York alone who are larger than Crown at around 50,000 taps, there are quite a few according to the Almanac. To me, midsized is 10-20,000 taps. Many producers do not tap that number, however they produce from that many. There are plenty of producers who now top 30,000 taps of their own, many have websites.

Not sure what it matters but there is an entire mid to large sized maple fraternity out there who do not participate on maple boards of any kind. They communicate directly, not in the public's eye. Many are simply too busy.

[Goggleeye]

Im all for laws that protect public health from a real danger but i have a real problem with having to have a flush toilet in my veggie packing house so i can wash lettuce in my salad spinner,,,,,conagra likes that rule though because they can spend $500000 on their pacing house and put my bud that busted his back all his life out of biz...(or make him spend a bunch more money that he could have put into something useful).....and get his market share
So say a large ag firm gets into sugaring and hires some laywers and lobbiest to pass a law saying all sugarhouses need to have a protien skimmer (at a cost of $???) Just to be safe....like the flush toilet i guess.....will the mom and pop producer be able to bear that cost? At $2/lb syrup? No but you can sell your sap to them......i like boiling,,you?


Corporate fascism at its best. And what's sad is that so many folks jump right on in the name public safety or for some other reason that makes them feel good about themselves. And they have no idea big gov't/big business is setting the stage to pull the rug out from under them.

Some people have the foresight to see this, the rest mock us and call us paranoid, etc. Folks won't realize until it's their rug that gets pulled. And then some will just agree to follow the system just to get their loaf of bread. Sadly, free market is gone.

[southfork]

I think RMG maple supplies and the cmspm.org have a good understanding of where commercial maple syrup production is heading. This is not unlike what has already happened in New York.

http://www.cmspm.org/maple-news/

[southfork]

Here are some producers ( RMG Sugarbush and sister company, Michigan Maple Supplies ) who make positive things happen for the industry, large and small. CDL also seems to be on the move and quite aggressive.

http://www.stignacenews.com/news/2015-05-21/Front_Page/Maple_Industry_Is_Poised_for_Growth.html